The Angelus

Fanny Cradock

We currently have a debate running over on the Christinity forum about the Angelus. I'm interested in gaining a little insight into the opinions of Muslims with regards to RTE's decision to continue to broadcast it both on RTE 1 and Radio 1. Does it offend you because it unduly promotes one religion over another? Should it be removed because we are now in a pluralist society? Is it an irrelevance to you? Or perhaps something else?

If memory serves correctly, the Radio version of the Angelus is simply the chiming of bells, whereas the RTE 1 version has recently undergone a slight non-denominational modification and now it comprises of a series of video images showing people take a moment to contemplate without any overt religious imagery. Across the two media formats, I believe that RTE gives over a total of 3 minutes per day to broadcasting.

Speaking as a Christian, I find that it really doesn't offend me in the slightest. More importantly, I say this as a non-Catholic. It is brief, rather ambiguous in its imagery and I have the power to change station if it really offended me. This last point was made in a another recent thread with regard to comedy shows broadcast on UK television that poke fun at religions.

It is often said that we need to remove overt reference to religion from the public square in case we offend anyone, especially those of other religions. However, I find that it is usually those of no religion who are at the forefront of making the claims that religion should be a privatised affair lest we upset anyone.

wes

No, not bothered by it at all. In fact I don't even remember the last time I saw it. Its completely harmless, and I see no reasons to complain about it.

hivizman

I was following the thread on the Angelus on the Christianity website with interest, and one of Fanny Cradock's posts prompted me to re-read the Constitution of Ireland. I was actually surprised to see an explicitly Trinitarian preamble, the opening words being "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity". However, the more substantive Article 44 is less overtly Trinitarian:

Article 44
1. The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.
2. 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.
2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.
3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.
4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school. 5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.
6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.

The reference to "Almighty God" does not specifically limit this to God as understood by Christian doctrine, so should presumably accommodate anyone who accepts a Supreme Being.

Of course, you don't have to look very far to find examples of Muslims hostile to the ringing of bells - there was a report of extreme Muslims in Somalia even banning the ringing of bells to mark the ends of periods in schools because they associated bell-ringing with Christianity and hence considered it to be anti-Islamic.

irishconvert

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

We currently have a debate running over on the Christinity forum about the Angelus. I'm interested in gaining a little insight into the opinions of Muslims with regards to RTE's decision to continue to broadcast it both on RTE 1 and Radio 1. Does it offend you because it unduly promotes one religion over another? Should it be removed because we are now in a pluralist society? Is it an irrelevance to you? Or perhaps something else?

Speaking as an ex-Christan who converted to Islam I have no problem whatsoever with the Angelus. I do live in a Christian country afterall and respect the right of the majority of people in this country who are Christians to practise their faith. I have no idea how anybody could be offended by the Angelus.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

If memory serves correctly, the Radio version of the Angelus is simply the chiming of bells, whereas the RTE 1 version has recently undergone a slight non-denominational modification and now it comprises of a series of video images showing people take a moment to contemplate without any overt religious imagery. Across the two media formats, I believe that RTE gives over a total of 3 minutes per day to broadcasting.

The fact that they try to "water down" the Angelus on RTE is what annoys me. It is almost as if they are ashamed to show it. The Angelus is a Christian practise, if they really believe in showing it they should be proud and not try to disguise it as some kind of moment for everyone, religious and non-religious, to reflect. I think this is a bit of a farce.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Speaking as a Christian, I find that it really doesn't offend me in the slightest. More importantly, I say this as a non-Catholic. It is brief, rather ambiguous in its imagery and I have the power to change station if it really offended me. This last point was made in a another recent thread with regard to comedy shows broadcast on UK television that poke fun at religions.

It is often said that we need to remove overt reference to religion from the public square in case we offend anyone, especially those of other religions. However, I find that it is usually those of no religion who are at the forefront of making the claims that religion should be a privatised affair lest we upset anyone.

I agree 100%. Attacks on Christianity and Christian practises actually worry me as a Muslim because I see it as an attack on all religions and wonder if my religion will be next in line. Muslims and Christians should really support one another on issues like this. United we stand, divide we fall.

hivizman

The discussion of whether RTE1 should continue to broadcast The Angelus at 6PM has certainly provided an opportunity for a quick refresher course on the Irish Constitution and its provisions regarding religion. I note that the 1937 Constitution originally contained a provision (Article 44.1.2) "The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens." It also contained (Article 44.1.3) the following recognition of other religious persuasions: "The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution." These provisions were deleted by the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution in 1972.

Although this is now really just an academic point, it is interesting to think about the position of Islam in Ireland under the original 1937 Constitution. According to the Islamic Foundation of Ireland, "The documented history of the Islamic presence in Ireland goes back to the 1950’s." This seems to imply that Islam would not have been included as one of the "other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of [the 1937] Constitution", and hence would not have been recognised by the State. Would this have caused problems to the Muslim community in Ireland if the Constitution had not been amended in 1972, when that community was beginning to emerge?

vodafoneproblem

irishconvert wrote: »

The fact that they try to "water down" the Angelus on RTE is what annoys me. It is almost as if they are ashamed to show it. The Angelus is a Christian practise, if they really believe in showing it they should be proud and not try to disguise it as some kind of moment for everyone, religious and non-religious, to reflect. I think this is a bit of a farce.

I have to agree with you, and I'm speaking as a Catholic. I actually find it quite difficult to concentrate on saying any sort of prayer during the Angelus on RTE television, because it's full of RANDOM NOISES which keep bringing me out of the moment if I try. When they first changed a fixed picture to various moving scenes, at least you could just look away to not break your concentration. Now you can't even do that. I sometimes suspect it's some sort of sneaky step-be-step attack on the Angelus by the liberals in RTE. At least the Angelus on radio is still just the 'bells'. For now.

I agree 100%. Attacks on Christianity and Christian practises actually worry me as a Muslim because I see it as an attack on all religions and wonder if my religion will be next in line. Muslims and Christians should really support one another on issues like this. United we stand, divide we fall.

I definitely agree that the tendency these days by militant liberals/atheists is to attack all religions that they see as condemning/restricting them in any way.

Zombrex

irishconvert wrote: »

The fact that they try to "water down" the Angelus on RTE is what annoys me. It is almost as if they are ashamed to show it. The Angelus is a Christian practise, if they really believe in showing it they should be proud and not try to disguise it as some kind of moment for everyone, religious and non-religious, to reflect. I think this is a bit of a farce.

RTE don't want to show it, they have watered it down because they are trying to distance it from the Christian tradition because they are supposed to be a secular multicultural broadcaster, not promoting the religious practices of one denomination, even if it is that of the majority.

The reason they don't get rid of it completely is political pressure.

At least that is my understanding from talking to people who work for RTE.

irishconvert

Wicknight wrote: »

RTE don't want to show it, they have watered it down because they are trying to distance it from the Christian tradition because they are supposed to be a secular multicultural broadcaster, not promoting the religious practices of one denomination, even if it is that of the majority.

The reason they don't get rid of it completely is political pressure.

At least that is my understanding from talking to people who work for RTE.

Well they should keep it. RTE is a state broadcaster and is supposed to represent the citizens of this country, the majority who are Catholic. God knows we have to put up with all kinds of other programmes about gardening, arts, sport, reality tv, etc to cater for the people who like this. What's wrong with a bit of religion, surely people can stomach 2 minutes per day?

vodafoneproblem

for ever

Wicknight wrote: »

RTE don't want to show it, they have watered it down because they are trying to distance it from the Christian tradition because they are supposed to be a secular multicultural broadcaster, not promoting the religious practices of one denomination, even if it is that of the majority.

The reason they don't get rid of it completely is political pressure.

At least that is my understanding from talking to people who work for RTE.

So 'militant', and sometimes bitter, judging by that post above, Wicknight, and yet so sometimes searching, despite your protestations. We come into this world alone and we go out of it alone. We all have to decide for ourselves what it means. The Catholic Church is the hard and narrow way, imo. Others differ with their opinions. Edit: it 'amuses' me that atheists in general don't consider/debate their own consciousness, even on boards.ie, because that's the ultimate contradiction to their/your own existence, right? I hope you consider it forever, for your own sake/soul. Will some convergence happen between believers and unbelievers through 'science' in the future because of our unexplainable consciousness? Hmm. Do you think Dawkins and Hitchens have it all figured out? I don't. Convergence.

strobe

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

for ever

So 'militant', and sometimes bitter, judging by that post above, Wicknight, and yet so sometimes searching, despite your protestations. We come into this world alone and we go out of it alone. We all have to decide for ourselves what it means. The Catholic Church is the hard and narrow way, imo. Others differ with their opinions. Edit: it 'amuses' me that atheists in general don't consider/debate their own consciousness, even on boards.ie, because that's the ultimate contradiction to their/your own existence, right? I hope you consider it forever, for your own sake/soul. Will some convergence happen between believers and unbelievers through 'science' in the future because of our unexplainable consciousness? Hmm. Do you think Dawkins and Hitchens have it all figured out? I don't. Convergence.

Does that even make sense to you VP, D0nutz, Cleanup Aisle, Dogmatic Lefty? Whatever you are calling yourself at this moment in time?

Zombrex

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

for ever

So 'militant', and sometimes bitter, judging by that post above, Wicknight, and yet so sometimes searching, despite your protestations.

Sorry I'm not following. RTE are "militant"?

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

We come into this world alone and we go out of it alone. We all have to decide for ourselves what it means. The Catholic Church is the hard and narrow way, imo. Others differ with their opinions.

Er, ok. Do you believe in secular government?

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Edit: it 'amuses' me that atheists in general don't consider/debate their own consciousness, even on boards.ie, because that's the ultimate contradiction to their/your own existence, right?

It shouldn't "amuse" you since we do this all the time on the Atheist & Agnostic forum. Perhaps you should pop along to that forum, you might be converted

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

I hope you consider it forever, for your own sake/soul. Will some convergence happen between believers and unbelievers through 'science' in the future because of our unexplainable consciousness? Hmm.

The more we discover about our consciousness the less we seem to need supernatural explanations. But that is irrelevant to this thread and in fact this forum, so again I would suggest you pop along to the A&A forum

Zombrex

irishconvert wrote: »

Well they should keep it. RTE is a state broadcaster and is supposed to represent the citizens of this country, the majority who are Catholic. God knows we have to put up with all kinds of other programmes about gardening, arts, sport, reality tv, etc to cater for the people who like this. What's wrong with a bit of religion, surely people can stomach 2 minutes per day?

Fair enough, I'm simply explaining their position. RTE in recent times have moved towards a set of secular guidelines where they don't promote one the practices of a particular religion over any other religion, even if that religion is in the majority. They are trying to reflect other religions in a more inclusive light based on education and equality.

The Angelus conflicts with these guidelines and as such they internally at least, wish to get rid of it, but the political pressure from certain quarters makes this too much hassle. That is my understanding at least.

hivizman

You are certainly welcome in the Islam forum, but this thread was originally started to elicit Muslim views on whether RTE should continue to broadcast the Angelus. The last few posts are more appropriately located in the original thread on the Christianity forum.

deravarra

Hi - as a muslim, I have absolutely NO problem with the angelus. In fact, I would welcome it!

I think we all need a reminder to pause and reflect, and for those who wish to do so, pray.

There's nothing wrong with that.

And if someone wants to remove it as it may offend religious minorities - the Islamic communities that I know of certainly wouldnt have a problem with it either

The Highwayman

Don't care, but it does give a chance to catch the headlines on the BBC news before the RTE news starts

Tom Dunne

I don't see why Muslims would be offended by it.

I hear the call to prayer many times a day (is it 5? ) and I am most certainly not offended by it.