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cultural attitudes to guys and dating
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11-07-2010 2:00pm#1
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let me explain - a latin american friend of mine really goes out of her way to get irish men (and sadly not the most physically attractive ones) to ask her out....then gets them to pay for dinner and drinks yet somehow is surprised when they get annoyed at not getting a return by the second or third date
Her idea of attractive might be different to your idea of attractive. If a guy continues to pay for drinks and dinner for more than 2 dates he's very unusual or perhaps desperate.i'm inclined to believe its not malicious, cause when i see her working the guys over, she is clearly looking to dominate their attention and flatter their egos (or maybe hers). regardless of whether she finds them attractive or not.
How do you know she doesn't find them attractive even if you don't? Can she give us any tips on working the guys over here in the Ladies Lounge?
Not that we want guys to pay for dinner and drinks all the time, but it would be nice to get to go on a date once in a while.for me, anyway, it has the effect of making me feel like an ice queen just cause i don't pander to her methods...and i wonder if the irish guys are looking and her and comparing her to an irish girl (me)...as well as feeling justified at thinking that "irish girls are bitches, see i'm attractive, this girl is ALL over me"
We Irish women do have a reputation for being ice queens and rating ourselves above our value as perceived by others. Perhaps we're not as comfortable in our skins and as expressive with our sexuality as some other nations.is this cultural?
I think it's reciprocal. I know that Irish guys seem to love any Latina/South American type women and those women seem to go for Irish guys in a big way.I would never dream of going to a first date dinner in the first place unless i was already comfortable with him, and secondly, i would never put myself in a place where i was indebted to the guy in ANY way.
Most guys wouldn't take a girl to dinner on a first date unless they were comfortable with her. I think that most Irish girls would offer to go halves on a dinner date (I do anyway). There's no hard and fast rules for a first date, it's whatever both parties want to do themselves.and i'm not going to flatter anyone's ego by leading some guy on when i have a clear idea its not going anywhere....and doing that, i feel, just adds to this nasty feeling i've heard more irish guys expressing that irish girls are bitches and not worth it
Why are you friends with somebody who does this?surely guys see through this, at some point? obviously when it seems they are getting nothing out of it.
How do you know the guys really take her for dinner? Is she telling porkie pies to make you jealous? Have you seen her eating dinner with the guys and witnessed him handing over the cash at the end of the night?if this is cultural has anyone else found more differences? how does it make you feel?
I find that foreign guys like to cook for women - I've had lovely meals cooked for me on different occasions by Italian, Indian and German guys. The only thing is that I feel that I'm shortchanging them when I return the favour of cooking for them - anyone for bacon and cabbage? :rolleyes:0 -
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Venezuela, and I know a few Brazilian girls married to irish guys so it must be true!I'm curious to know where she's from as a Portugese friend of mine tells me that brazilian women are mad for irish boyfriends ,they are not interested in him even though he speaks their language .I went out with a mexican girl she was a very nice girl.
i'm sure it is different for each person, otherwise we'd all be the same:)Her idea of attractive might be different to your idea of attractive. If a guy continues to pay for drinks and dinner for more than 2 dates he's very unusual or perhaps desperate.
and as another poster pointed out, it would seem she targets them that way
i've been wondering that myselfWhy are you friends with somebody who does this?
:Dnever even thought to doubt itHow do you know the guys really take her for dinner? Is she telling porkie pies to make you jealous? Have you seen her eating dinner with the guys and witnessed him handing over the cash at the end of the night?
likewise for me, they make such an effort. but i have had irish guys make a similiar effort, which is a nice thoughtI find that foreign guys like to cook for women - I've had lovely meals cooked for me on different occasions by Italian, Indian and German guys. The only thing is that I feel that I'm shortchanging them when I return the favour of cooking for them - anyone for bacon and cabbage? :rolleyes:
now that i think about it, i can see differences in the way spanish women and latin american women deal with men. its funny, i never paid much attention before. i had assumed differences were individual but now i'm thinking otherwise
my brother went out with a spanish girl for a while. i think he was under the impression she would be less work than irish girls......to his horror, he has since learned otherwise although i still accept that it could be individual 0 -
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South American cultures are a world away from North European ones. To the South American woman "Man is King" (this is a quote from one), and I think that overall women over there don't have the same amount of equality with men, as women over here do.
I may be wrong, since I only spent a negligeble amount of time in South America, but I get the feeling that, since "Man is king", women's world traditionally revolves mostly around men, a bit similar to the Middle Eastern cultures. Men would be regarded as people with power, and therefore women would be falling over themselves to gain the cache of having a man, seducing a man, even fooling a man in some twisted take on that logic, as if being with a man or getting him to pay their way, is gaining a kind of second-hand status.
Dunno, might be just rambling on here, but I do think the dynamic between the sexes there is basically one of inequality, and feminine "wiles" therefore being turned on full force. Of course, men find this flattering.
Especially men coming from a more or less equal culture such as the Irish one. 0 -
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I have a four friends either married or living with brazilian girls and those girls treat them like a meal tickets. I would love to know how they do it as the men don't seem to realise they are just lapdogs. Its not they are execptionally attractive women, they have bad skin from too much sun and 3 out of 4 of them are quite overweight.
One friend, Dave I shall call him has a excellent career and would earn about 100-150k a year, when he met his wife she got pregnant in 6 weeks and gave up her job a little bit after that and hasn't gone back. He pays for her sisters to go to private school in Brazil and all of the families healthcare. She rarely lets him outside the door other than to go to work or food shopping and I have seen him with scratches on his face. The other three girls are equally lazy and as soon as they could they moved into the lad's apartments and do as little work as possible. I had one other friend going out with a chilean girl who was quite nice but turned out to working as an escort and internet porn actress.
Now there are millions of south americans who I am sure are wonderful but if I were a fella I would be running a mile from anything but a tumble in the hey with a south american girl. But having said I still want to know what their secret is. 0 -
I have a four friends either married or living with brazilian girls and those girls treat them like a meal tickets. I would love to know how they do it as the men don't seem to realise they are just lapdogs. Its not they are execptionally attractive women, they have bad skin from too much sun and 3 out of 4 of them are quite overweight.
One friend, Dave I shall call him has a excellent career and would earn about 100-150k a year, when he met his wife she got pregnant in 6 weeks and gave up her job a little bit after that and hasn't gone back. He pays for her sisters to go to private school in Brazil and all of the families healthcare. She rarely lets him outside the door other than to go to work or food shopping and I have seen him with scratches on his face. The other three girls are equally lazy and as soon as they could they moved into the lad's apartments and do as little work as possible. I had one other friend going out with a chilean girl who was quite nice but turned out to working as an escort and internet porn actress.
Now there are millions of south americans who I am sure are wonderful but if I were a fella I would be running a mile from anything but a tumble in the hey with a south american girl. But having said I still want to know what their secret is.
Me too. If an Irish guy even buys an Irish woman a drink he may have an ulterior motive!:rolleyes: I don't think that Irish guys are overgenerous with Irish women when they're in a relationship. Most Irish guys I've dated are thrifty and not willing to throw money away on fancy meals or cocktails for the little woman. Which is fair enough if the guy is saving or is generally savvy with money. What I can't understand is Irish guys who have been sensible with money and haven't overspent on treats for Irish women suddenly turn into walking ATMS for women from cultures where they fawn over men.:mad:
You don't hear of Irish guys behaving the same way around Dutch or German women as they do around Latina women but the Netherlands and Germany are two countries where women are very independent.0 -
Iv so seen this first hand i have a south american friend who is very pretty we go out a lot together. I like to think im decent looking as well but when we go out together and approached by men and realise im irish they back off me straight away.
They still flock around her. I dunno if its he accent or the way she speaks n her somwhat boken english (seems to lose a lot of words with a few drinks) I dunno maybe shes more mysterious to them and they can talk ****e were with me I want a conversation. 0 -
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I think it's because as you say the countries with the more traditional male/female roles have this. "Latin countries" is a big spread of cultures though. Spanish and Italian women would be way more independent than Brazilian. IME anyway. But yes even there the notion of roles, especially in dating would be different to Ireland. They would be more "macho" countries in general.
You don't hear of Irish guys behaving the same way around Dutch or German women as they do around Latina women but the Netherlands and Germany are two countries where women are very independent.
Well on the surface anyway. Having spent time with both Spanish and Italian men and women, they seem pretty equal, or similar to here anyway. Dating wise though there are subtle diffs. Again more on the surface of the culture. In both Spanish and Italian cases the women drive it as much as here. If not more so. This goes double when they get married.
As for splashing the cash, I reckon it's mostly down to them being exotic and a lot of the time the woman may be better looking than the same guy might expect to get here and as seenitall said, they're more likely to run with the feminine wiles, which will throw men not used to that stuff. If a guy is used to dealing with women who will deal with them on an equal basis, where the male/female roles are less defined, then its real easy for him to fall for the flattery.
Having gone out with various latin women over the years I would say they're just like people anywhere. Its all down to the individual. I would also say they're less suspicious(for serious want of a better word) of a mans motives. They're easier to compliment*, "spoil", get emotional with and basically less guarded on the surface than Irish women. Obviously huge generalisation, but male mates of mine with similar experiences would say the same thing. I dunno where that comes from though.
It wasnt always thus IMHO. I think people full stop have become more guarded dating wise in Ireland.
*one thing where I wont apologise for a cultural generalisation is this: Irish women are really bad at taking compliments. I mean really bad. They just dont know how to handle them. Say to an Italian woman "you look gorgeous tonight" and she'll thank you and you'll see her get a kick from it. Say the same to an Irish woman and you'll get the feeling she doesnt quite believe it or more to the point you. Say it to an Irish woman you've just met and she may thump you Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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It wasnt always thus IMHO. I think people full stop have become more guarded dating wise in Ireland.
True, so much so that I don't consider "dating" to be a way to get to know somebody anymore. Dates are more like job interviews than anything else and I find it impossible to be at ease and myself with somebody on a date.*one thing where I wont apologise for a cultural generalisation is this: Irish women are really bad at taking compliments. I mean really bad. They just dont know how to handle them. Say to an Italian woman "you look gorgeous tonight" and she'll thank you and you'll see her get a kick from it. Say the same to an Irish woman and you'll get the feeling she doesnt quite believe it or more to the point you. Say it to an Irish woman you've just met and she may thump you
Would you blame us? Irish men seem to have a terrible opinion of us - that's a generalisation I won't apologise for. :mad: The Irish culture isn't as focused on outward appearance as the Italian and French cultures. Eastern European women are very into their appearance nowadays because they were repressed for so long under the communist regime. I don't mean to blame religion again, but same sex schools run by religious orders would have encouraged girls not to be obsessed about their appearance.
Vanity is a mortal sin and flatterers are agents of the devil!:D0 -
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Interesting topic. My boyfriend is Argentinian and sometimes we get ourselves into comical scenarios where were fighting over paying for even a litre of milk. I´ve always paid for half of everything with previous boyfriends (they´ve been Irish and British)...you get it this time and I´ll get it the next time and it´s always worked. I´ve always felt I´ve been on an equal footing with that person as a result.
I´ve recently come to realise that it´s important for the Argie to pay for stuff. We live in Spain and the shop across from his apartment is run by a couple of Equadorian guys. We were getting a few bits and bobs to go hiking and he´d paid for the stuff the week before so it was my turn...but once again he insisted. I joked in English (so the Equadorians wouldn´t understand) was this an example of the infamous Latin machisimo...he doesn´t want to be seen in front of the latin guys depending on a woman to pay for stuff. We laughed but I think that´s exactly what happened. He´s not your typical Macho Latin guy at all but I guess he´d be traditional in that sense...at least until he has me tied to the kitchen sink further down the road.
He´ll make me breakfast and dinner even when I bring over stuff to his flat and insist. In his opinion it´s his place to spoil a lady. I´m not used to it at all and goes against everything I was brought up believing was fair. It is nice though, even if it´s a little uncomfortable. I don´t want to be seen as the kind of girl who can do nothing for herself or as lazy or as some princess or loose the balance of equality and not be taken seriously so I´ll keep on offering to pay even if he won´t let me or do him favours without him noticing. Psychologically I know were on an equal footing then. Problems arise when you start taking that kind of treatment for granted.
I saw how Latin American women behave around European guys when I travelled there for 11 months and I could never be that kind of woman. Those guys became the be all and end all for those girls. Thing is, I met a Peruvian girl travelling who told me lots of Peruvian girls try to hook up with gringo guys to get out of their countries....they´ve even got a name for that type of girls (can´t think of it...something to do with "bridge"...I´ll get back to you on that).
Yep and in my experience Brazilian women do love Irish guys. I met some guys from Cork my first week travelling...these guys wouldn´t have been all that popular back home (they said it themselves) but they were a hit with a bunch of gorgeous Brazilian women I shared dorms with. I spoke to those girls and they thought the men were "lovely". I talked to the Irish guys later and one of them said to me, "At home I´d get chased away with with a wooden stick by most women and now I have all these women all over me"...bless him. The women gave these guys so much attention, they were all over them in every way and to be honest, if an Irish girl did the same to a guy back home in a public setting, she´d be branded a slapper. These guys attitude towards these girls was totally different to anything I´ve seen back home. We wouldn´t get away with it.
Fact of the matter is many Irish men have a terrible opinion of us and when I read the comments posted daily on AH, I feel disappointed. As much as I like Irish guys generally, I don´t see myself dating one in the future. As much as I love being treated as an equal by Irish men, it´s nice to be treated as a lady sometimes instead of just one of the lads.0 -
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Eve_Dublin wrote: »I´ve always felt I´ve been on an equal footing with that person as a result.
i think we are raised with strong emphasis on equality and even the fairy stories we have (Grainne the pirate etc etc) put women on an equal footing.Eve_Dublin wrote: »I don´t want to be seen as the kind of girl who can do nothing for herself or as lazy or as some princess or loose the balance of equality and not be taken seriously so I´ll keep on offering to pay even if he won´t let me or do him favours without him noticing. Psychologically I know were on an equal footing then. Problems arise when you start taking that kind of treatment for granted.
i must ask my latina friend what sort of children's stories they grew up with.
i can understand that in latin cultures there can be a more defined role for the male which i think can be attractive in itself to some irish guys.
i know if i even tried this in dublin, i'd be found out straight away.Eve_Dublin wrote: »The women gave these guys so much attention, they were all over them in every way and to be honest, if an Irish girl did the same to a guy back home in a public setting, she´d be branded a slapper. These guys attitude towards these girls was totally different to anything I´ve seen back home. We wouldn´t get away with it.
and its not that i can't bat my eyelashes and flatter a guy but he'd see straight through me and think I was making a fool of him...catch22 really
i was in tripod one night, and i heard this group of lads chatting - 2 irish guys and i think 2 american/south american guys.Eve_Dublin wrote: »Fact of the matter is many Irish men have a terrible opinion of us and when I read the comments posted daily on AH, I feel disappointed. As much as I like Irish guys generally, I don´t see myself dating one in the future. As much as I love being treated as an equal by Irish men, it´s nice to be treated as a lady sometimes instead of just one of the lads.
the 2 irish guys were giving out sh*te about irish girls (actually telling the 2 others to avoid irish girls like the plague).
i was going to go over and be oh-so-sweet and charming to them and try to have a light hearted debate(joking, smiling, not being defensive etc) about it but i knew that no matter what i did, the minute i walked away the 2 irish guys would turn around and say "see what i mean? bitch"....but it just frustrated me so much that i felt i had no way to defend irish girls
i'm starting to think they really don't want us0 -
i think we are raised with strong emphasis on equality and even the fairy stories we have (Grainne the pirate etc etc) put women on an equal footing.
i must ask my latina friend what sort of children's stories they grew up with.
i can understand that in latin cultures there can be a more defined role for the male which i think can be attractive in itself to some irish guys.
It's not just Granuaile the Pirate Queen. Under Brehon Law women had more rights than when Ireland was ruled by the English. Even so, when Ireland was an agrarian society people married at Shrove (Spring) so that there would be an extra person to help out at harvest time. Men and women worked equally hard on the land and the women would have managed the household as well. In some parts of Ireland men would have gone abroad to work as migrant labourers and sent money home. While they were gone women would have run the show.i was in tripod one night, and i heard this group of lads chatting - 2 irish guys and i think 2 american/south american guys.
the 2 irish guys were giving out sh*te about irish girls (actually telling the 2 others to avoid irish girls like the plague).
They were only making themselves look bad and I bet at least one of those foreign guys went out with an Irish girl at some stage. If the Irish guys were in South America and South American guys were telling them to avoid South American women how would that look?i was going to go over and be oh-so-sweet and charming to them and try to have a light hearted debate(joking, smiling, not being defensive etc) about it but i knew that no matter what i did, the minute i walked away the 2 irish guys would turn around and say "see what i mean? bitch"....but it just frustrated me so much that i felt i had no way to defend irish girls
That's another thing about Irish society, there's no tradition of chivalry like in England, or of machismo (protecting women) like in Latin societies. Maybe Irish men feel a bit powerless and resentful in the company of Irish women because of this. They were never encouraged to take up arms and protect their women, so to speak. Women have always been involved in revolution in Ireland - Kitty O'Shea, Cumann na mBan, we're well able to fight our corner.i'm starting to think they really don't want us
I like to compare them with toddlers and food. Put "boring" food in front of a toddler (plain nutritious food that's served every day) and he or she probably won't want it. Put sweets, cakes or fast food in front of the toddler and they'll gobble it up! It's the same thing with some Irish men (toddlers), Irish women (like plain but boring nutritious food) and foreign women (sweets, cakes and fast food).
Funny, but you don't see them fawn so much over equally if not more attractive women from countries where women are independent like Germany, the Netherlands or to a certain extent Scandinavia. I think the Irish men who complain most about Irish women are the ones who can't get a date here and that's largely down to their own negative attitudes in the first place. If they'd grown up in South America instead of Ireland they'd be saying exactly the same thing about South American women!0 -
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Ah TBH I dunno about that. The odd socially inept and spotty 18 year old virgin bloke and his rantings does not a trend make. Most, the vast majority of Irish men end up with and are in love with an Irish woman. Its more a meme than anything and its quite recent too IMHO.but it just frustrated me so much that i felt i had no way to defend irish girls
i'm starting to think they really don't want us
20 years ago I was unusual among my peers for not generally going out with Irish women(There were also a lot fewer around at the time). Most of said male peers would have also said "why dont you go for a nice irish girl". Now it wasnt that intentional on my part at first, though after a while I tended to select for them. Reasons? I dunno I tended to get on better with them
or just got lucky personality wise. I reckon the latter is 90% of it tbh and I would also reckon that someone who ups sticks and leaves their country is going to be more someone who is also of a certain personality type which gelled with mine.
Fast forward to the last say 10 years and I see and hear about more Irish men going for the foreign women. There are way more of those women about so that's a factor. The exotic aspect is also a huge factor. I also hear more of this "I wouldnt go out with an irish woman again" stuff. Two mates of mine are quite adamant on this point. But even so they're still rare enough. I would say and its only a personal thing, that Irish women can sometimes come across as more bossy and harsh. Its very subjective however and there are enough bossy and harsh men and women who arent Irish(EG Italian women can be very strident in long termers). Plus I would say that more Irish men actually like being bossed around. The ones looking for the replacement Irish mammy(tm).Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I always heard that one the other way round, that Polish guys preferred Irish girls as they thought Polish girls were too cold blooded and materialistic.
I still think the only sensible way is to take people as you find them though I am going to change what I said earlier on as since writing that I remembered a brazilian girl that fits that description to an absolute T. So I don't think national stereotypes are 100% reliable - but at the same time that doesn't mean they are 0% reliable, or that there is nothing to it whatsoever.
And Irish guys think Irish girls are cold blooded and materialistic. The mind boggles. But I definitely know that some Polish guys don't like women to drink too much or to be overweight. They're very into their fitness. 0 -
No offence meant, but I don't think Polish men liked Irish girls that much. We drink too much and I think we're too small and fat for their tastes as well.
No offence taken as they´re not my cup of tea...don´t go for blondies. Were only small and fat IF were small and fat....but yeah, they might have a point about the drinking...we do drink a fair bit but double standardsarama coming from Polish guys
. I´ve no time for that. 0 -
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Eve_Dublin wrote: »No offence taken as they´re not my cup of tea...don´t go for blondies. Were only small and fat IF were small and fat....but yeah, they might have a point about the drinking...we do drink a fair bit but double standardsarama coming from Polish guys . I´ve no time for that.
Some of them are fine looking guys but I always thought they drank too much myself. And they drink spirits too which to me is worse than getting tanked up on 5 or 6 pints of beer. I haven't met any Polish guys personally so I can't comment but any Polish girls I met were lovely. Not into drinking at all and very much into looking after themselves.0 -
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In many ways they still do or did a generation ago. Its where a lot of the "Irish mammy" thing comes from.In some parts of Ireland men would have gone abroad to work as migrant labourers and sent money home. While they were gone women would have run the show.
true but you do hear that from other cultures men about their women too. Not as much as here though I grant you.They were only making themselves look bad and I bet at least one of those foreign guys went out with an Irish girl at some stage. If the Irish guys were in South America and South American guys were telling them to avoid South American women how would that look?
I agree. Often more than the men. Irish men can be quite passive. Certainly in Ireland. Overseas they're often the ones starting revolutions thoughThat's another thing about Irish society, there's no tradition of chivalry like in England, or of machismo (protecting women) like in Latin societies. Maybe Irish men feel a bit powerless and resentful in the company of Irish women because of this. They were never encouraged to take up arms and protect their women, so to speak. Women have always been involved in revolution in Ireland - Kitty O'Shea, Cumann na mBan, we're well able to fight our corner.. You see that in the arts as well. Most of our great artists until recently were exiles. Irish men seem to do far better away from Ireland. I dont see that as much in Irish women? Maybe thats why some go for the foriegn women?
People do like novelty thats true.I like to compare them with toddlers and food. Put "boring" food in front of a toddler (plain nutritious food that's served every day) and he or she probably won't want it. Put sweets, cakes or fast food in front of the toddler and they'll gobble it up! It's the same thing with some Irish men (toddlers), Irish women (like plain but boring nutritious food) and foreign women (sweets, cakes and fast food).
I dunno about that. Of the foriegn women I and various mates have gone out with, there were no south american women, IIRC, a few german, swedish, one austrian, a couple of russians, spanish, french, latvians, aussies and canadians, with a fair smatterng of UK women. I think that's too simple an explanation. The most submissive woman Ive ever known was from bonn.Funny, but you don't see them fawn so much over equally if not more attractive women from countries where women are independent like Germany, the Netherlands or to a certain extent Scandinavia.
I do reckon theres a lot of that alright. Plus if they clearly attract a better looking woman than they would have a hope with here, thats bound to skew their outlook too. Though that too is as much a cliche. You're more likely to get slightly more choice simply because of that novelty factor going on. that goes for women and men. I've known Irish women who've moved overseas and came back ith men in tow that their women mates went Bloody hell!! :eek:I think the Irish men who complain most about Irish women are the ones who can't get a date here and that's largely down to their own negative attitudes in the first place. If they'd grown up in South America instead of Ireland they'd be saying exactly the same thing about South American women! hey whats good for the goose....
I said it earlier, but the one biggest diff I have found is that Irish women are a lot harder to do things for/fuss over(and the paying of compliments). There's more of a feeling of suspicion coming back when you try. The "what's he up to" vibe. I understand that part of that is an independence thing but it can feel like bloody hard work and you can feel as if you're kept at a distance more. Can kill a sense of intimacy. Well if you notice it, which I would, so that's as much me. I can recall that feeling even 20 years ago.
I dunno. I really dont. I think thats more a self confidence thing. Yes women here tend to be bigger than some other countries. Defo the latin ones in particular, but there are plenty of big women and there are plenty of women with faces like a slapped arse no matter where you go(ditto for men). Plus I've known quite a few foreign men who prefer a woman with more meat on her and preferred Irish women to their own. Boob men defo prefer it here.No offence meant, but I don't think Polish men liked Irish girls that much. We drink too much and I think we're too small and fat for their tastes as well. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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i was in tripod one night, and i heard this group of lads chatting - 2 irish guys and i think 2 american/south american guys.
the 2 irish guys were giving out sh*te about irish girls (actually telling the 2 others to avoid irish girls like the plague).
i was going to go over and be oh-so-sweet and charming to them and try to have a light hearted debate(joking, smiling, not being defensive etc) about it but i knew that no matter what i did, the minute i walked away the 2 irish guys would turn around and say "see what i mean? bitch"....but it just frustrated me so much that i felt i had no way to defend irish girls
i'm starting to think they really don't want us
Foreign guys dont need Irish guys to tell them the women are bogey.I myself am a foreigner I'm from usa originally ,living here since teens and I hang in circles that are non irish.
Recently at a bus stop I had a conversation with an american guy ,the guy was a good looking lad pretty interesting to talk to etc and he was asking me what the deal was with Irish women.Why do they get dressed to kill and spend the night either dancing around their handbags or knocking back guys.
I also have a portugese friend who is also a good looking bloke ,he also cannot understand Irish women ,he wanted to go out with an Irish woman but he could get nowhere . Now the mind really boggles because this guy has a physique to die forvtanned ,and an extremely good job in FB .He's also very articulate ,a pure gentleman ,well read ,well travelled not at all sleazy. He's opted to see a french lady as she obvously doesn't need specsavers.
Also in the last few years because we have enjoyed so much growth ,people have become deluded to the reality to the situation. People are watching and reading so much ****e on tv and its being integrated into the the new irish culture. We are all but a tiny dot on the map and nobody really gives a flying fcuk about us ,ask sepp blatter this ,but still some people and especially girls have ego's as big as houses.Evens Irelands richest person doesn't even register in the likes of a bigger country like the usa.
They treat men like a commodity, totally disposable and idiotic, this is especially if they see you as low status .ie shorter than them ,not as attractive as them etc.I blame shows like sex and the city and associated rubbish .It doesn't happen to me as I am very tall and I dont really take any crap at all from people but i've seen it so many times and it really does get to me a bit.
I dont think any girl on this forum would understand why men do give out about girls .Simply because they are not in the same mindset of the people I describe above .In my own experience of boards I met a few girls at the AH beers and I found them absolutley lovely ,I was really a duck out of water as I knew absolutely nobody .there.This is my personal opinion
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I agree. Often more than the men. Irish men can be quite passive. Certainly in Ireland. Overseas they're often the ones starting revolutions though. You see that in the arts as well. Most of our great artists until recently were exiles. Irish men seem to do far better away from Ireland. I dont see that as much in Irish women? Maybe thats why some go for the foriegn women? :)
What do you mean here Wibbs? Well in what? Well in getting a man or well generally? Is it not fair to say that men do better generally as the world is geared towards them? If we arrive in a different country we as women have other factors to contend with. Personally I´ve had to put up with living in a society where women are STILL second citizens...the stories I could tell you would melt your face. I teach in a very large Spanish bank and ALL of my female students said there was no chance they´d ever get promoted to chief executive positions within the bank and women are sacrificing having kids just to get on in their careers. Just got back from work two minutes ago and everyday I have pass leering men passing remarks on my appearance just to get into my house. All of my close female, Irish friends are living abroad in different countries and one has a PhD, one is running her own art tours business single-handedly, one works for the Irish embassy, one practically runs a tour operating company for the Middle East, my sister just opened a massage parlour (the non dodgy kind ) and I´m a decent enough teacher (considering I´m essentially blagging it). I´d say it´s tougher for us to make it abroad as it is for local women. 0 -
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In many ways they still do or did a generation ago. Its where a lot of the "Irish mammy" thing comes from.
true but you do hear that from other cultures men about their women too. Not as much as here though I grant you.
I agree. Often more than the men. Irish men can be quite passive. Certainly in Ireland. Overseas they're often the ones starting revolutions though. You see that in the arts as well. Most of our great artists until recently are tax exiles. Irish men seem to do far better away from Ireland. I dont see that as much in Irish women? Maybe thats why some go for the foriegn women?
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No I get that, but it is a real pain in the bum when you want to engage and feel that wall come up. I see it with married/longtermer women mates. I can tell them they look really bloody great tonight and no bother they take it as its meant, but if their BF/husbands do it's all too often taken...well not badly, but not nearly in the same vein. That distance comes in.metrovelvet wrote: »That's funny. I would be suspicious if compliments from an Irish man but not any other kind. Ithink because of the slagging culture, its just bizarre when nice things are uttered from them. It's like when foreigners use local slang, it just doesnt sound authentic.
I meant in with regard to Irish men doing better. Actually I think for many Irish the best thing for them is to bugger off to another culture. It knocks the edges off their bullshít more often than not. Oz or the US or UK doesnt really cut it. It needs to be somewhere more alien to them.Eve_Dublin wrote: »What do you mean here Wibbs? Well in what? Well in getting a man or well generally?
God yes I would agree.Is it not fair to say that men do better generally as the world is geared towards them? If we arrive in a different country we as women have other factors to contend with.
You might be surprised.Personally I´ve had to put up with living in a society where women are STILL second citizens...the stories I could tell you would melt your face.
Yep I would agree. I've gone out with two spaniards long term. That place can be seriously screwed up employment wise in general and for women in particular. "oh lets keep you on permanent probation while waiting to see if something better comes up. Contract? You're having a laughito"I teach in a very large Spanish bank and ALL of my female students said there was no chance they´d ever get promoted to chief executive positions within the bank and women are sacrificing having kids just to get on in their careers.
I noticed that in spain, italy and to a lesser extent france. Walking with a woman and you would catch the eye's of the lechy guys having a good look. I was a tad píssed off over this at first, but then was informed that if they had been on their own these gobshítes would have been much worse. A lot of these muppets would look the woman up and down and then look at me as if to say "oh yea she passes". :rolleyes:Just got back from work two minutes ago and everyday I have pass leering men passing remarks on my appearance just to get into my house.
Oh I didnt deny that at all. Men do better full stop. In the sense that they get more leeway socially and in biz(In Ireland that is a lot less for all the BS talked). Irish men seem to have the BS charm thing which makes them work very well in other climes. Maybe its down to the higher class of BS here. I mean if you can BS the average Irish man or woman, then most other cultures are fair game.:DAll of my close female, Irish friends are living abroad in different countries and one has a PhD, one is running her own art tours business single-handedly, one works for the Irish embassy, one practically runs a tour operating company for the Middle East, my sister just opened a massage parlour (the non dodgy kind ) and I´m a decent enough teacher (considering I´m essentially blagging it). I´d say it´s tougher for us to make it abroad as it is for local women.
Somehow, I don't think Jimmy Joyce, Sam Beckett or Jackie Yeats were running away from the tax office.FYPRejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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No I get that, but it is a real pain in the bum when you want to engage and feel that wall come up. I see it with married/longtermer women mates. I can tell them they look really bloody great tonight and no bother they take it as its meant, but if their BF/husbands do it's all too often taken...well not badly, but not nearly in the same vein. That distance comes in.
I meant in with regard to Irish men doing better. Actually I think for many Irish the best thing for them is to bugger off to another culture. It knocks the edges off their bullshít more often than not. Oz or the US or UK doesnt really cut it. It needs to be somewhere more alien to them. God yes I would agree. You might be surprised. Yep I would agree. I've gone out with two spaniards long term. That place can be seriously screwed up employment wise in general and for women in particular. "oh lets keep you on permanent probation while waiting to see if something better comes up. Contract? You're having a laughito"I noticed that in spain, italy and to a lesser extent france. Walking with a woman and you would catch the eye's of the lechy guys having a good look. I was a tad píssed off over this at first, but then was informed that if they had been on their own these gobshítes would have been much worse. A lot of these muppets would look the woman up and down and then look at me as if to say "oh yea she passes". :rolleyes:
Oh I didnt deny that at all. Men do better full stop. In the sense that they get more leeway socially and in biz(In Ireland that is a lot less for all the BS talked). Irish men seem to have the BS charm thing which makes them work very well in other climes. Maybe its down to the higher class of BS here. I mean if you can BS the average Irish man or woman, then most other cultures are fair game.:D
Somehow, I don't think Jimmy Joyce, Sam Beckett or Jackie Yeats were running away from the tax office.
The labour laws here are just incredible. Absolutely shocking. I probably have one of the most cushty numbers going in this country as an English teacher....and by any other European Union country´s standards I´m being exploited (no holiday pay, not even for bank holidays of which there are many, getting **** pay as it is, expected to pay for my own photocopying as photocopiers and printers always broken and I´m never reimbursed etc).
To be honest, the only thing I was surprised to find was how women are still treated as second class citizens....it´s not Iran or even Italy but it´s still not great, worse than Ireland anyway. I didn´t expect that. I´ve read in a few places that women are having their feminist revolution but the men seem oblivious to it...get your head round THAT one! Spanish women are strong women...I certainly wouldn´t mess with them but you seem to still notice some men trying to undermine them...there´s still an undercurrent of plain, old sexism in this country. I see that with men leering at them and I even see the dynamics in my English classes...they can actually be very shy to speak up and sometimes their opinions are belittled or some sexist comment is made, particularly by the older students...it´s not a real issue but it´s definitely there....never came across that in Ireland. The big bosses are ALL male. People work crazy hours over here and pay for overtime is a foreign concept...literally, so women actually can´t have kids.
I´ve yet to meet an Irish woman abroad who HASN´T done well for herself abroad and actually, I´ve met more of us who have come here alone to give it a go considering the size of the country. Same goes for travelling on our own...I met loads of Irish women in South America travelling alone (I think we were all getting over broken hearts ) I´d say Irish women would be pretty ballsy in that respect. Perhaps it´s a Northern European thing....I met zero Italians, Greeks, Spanish etc and the ones I did meet were travelling in couples.
By the way, all my old female friends living abroad and my Irish friends here areall going out with/married to foreigners...we do pretty well on that front too, it seems. Some men like a woman with a bit of bite in her and that´s something we certainly have plenty of. The Argie commented on how different it was for him to have a woman who does her own thing, has her own friends (and still sees them) and depends on him for nothing. He likes it but perhaps I´m a little extreme...I´m easing up on that a bit and letting him take the traditional role as a man now and then. I´m not up for wearing the trousers like many Irish women but I will maintain the balance.
Anyway, I´m rambling. I think the Irish do pretty well abroad full stop. Irish men have that obvious charm alright and they´d be immediately accepted in some parts of the world because they´re Irish and male. My brother is an example of an Irish guy who left home in the early nineties and has really done well for himself socially and has a job he´s happy in and found big love with a foreign lady. He´d be one of those guys in his city that everyone would know. Him being Irish has DEFINITELY helped him along. My sisters who emigrated to the same country did well for themselves as well but not off the back of the Irish thing so much as my brother. Perhaps it´s more beneficial for an Irish man to get away for a few years than an Irish women...I don´t know.0 -
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I agree. I was completely gobsmacked how bad they were. The whole setup is geared to the business owners not the workers. People in Ireland dunno how lucky they are by comparison.Eve_Dublin wrote: »The labour laws here are just incredible. Absolutely shocking.
Sounds about right. I would love to live in the place but I'd have to have a secure income from outside it. No way would I work there, unless as part of a multinational that imported an external way of doing things.I probably have one of the most cushty numbers going in this country as an English teacher....and by any other European Union country´s standards I´m being exploited (no holiday pay, not even for bank holidays of which there are many, getting **** pay as it is, expected to pay for my own photocopying as photocopiers and printers always broken and I´m never reimbursed etc).
I dunno I think Italy is better TBH.To be honest, the only thing I was surprised to find was how women are still treated as second class citizens....it´s not Iran or even Italy but it´s still not great, worse than Ireland anyway. I didn´t expect that.
Yep agreed again. .I´ve read in a few places that women are having their feminist revolution but the men seem oblivious to it...get your head round THAT one! Spanish women are strong women...I certainly wouldn´t mess with them but you seem to still notice some men trying to undermine them...there´s still an undercurrent of plain, old sexism in this country. I see that with men leering at them and I even see the dynamics in my English classes...they can actually be very shy to speak up and sometimes their opinions are belittled or some sexist comment is made, particularly by the older students...it´s not a real issue but it´s definitely there....never came across that in Ireland.
I think it is a northern european thing. The latin countries dont seem to have the wanderlust nearly as much as we do. They also rarely enough stay elsewhere, even if they travel.I´ve yet to meet an Irish woman abroad who HASN´T done well for herself abroad and actually, I´ve met more of us who have come here alone to give it a go considering the size of the country. Same goes for travelling on our own...I met loads of Irish women in South America travelling alone (I think we were all getting over broken hearts ) I´d say Irish women would be pretty ballsy in that respect. Perhaps it´s a Northern European thing....I met zero Italians, Greeks, Spanish etc and the ones I did meet were travelling in couples.
It's always been my contention when this subject comes up that Irish women are great, Irish men are great, but maybe sometimes not that great together and they're often better off with non Irish partners. Then again most still end up with locals.By the way, all my old female friends living abroad and my Irish friends here areall going out with/married to foreigners...we do pretty well on that front too, it seems.
Bite is OK, but all too often IMHO it's defensiveness and harshness that can come across. The usual AH stylee stuff about "irish women are ugly" I've not heard from foreign men. However, the word "harsh" is the one Ive most commonly heard about Irish women from non Irish both male and female.Some men like a woman with a bit of bite in her and that´s something we certainly have plenty of.
I agree the balance is everything.The Argie commented on how different it was for him to have a woman who does her own thing, has her own friends (and still sees them) and depends on him for nothing. He likes it but perhaps I´m a little extreme...I´m easing up on that a bit and letting him take the traditional role as a man now and then. I´m not up for wearing the trousers like many Irish women but I will maintain the balance.
I think its good for both. We're very parochial as a culture and that exposure to a different culture helps us get some perspective, even if that exposure is just through going out with someone from another culture.Perhaps it´s more beneficial for an Irish man to get away for a few years than an Irish women...I don´t know.
Actually I can'tBumbleB wrote:Wibbs will know he can see my proxy server Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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And in the States they get no holidays compared to us. I work for a pretty big multinational (Wibbs will know he can see my proxy server) I made a very serious miscalculation the other day if I had have done the same thing in the states I would be fired on the spot ok I lost my raise ,but I dont think 3 % is going to be missed somehow. People dont realise how good it is here.:)
This is off topic but Ireland would be light years of Spain in that respect. I don´t know how they stand it. Only experience I have of living in The States is working on a J1 Visa in the states when I was 21...worked my backside off as a waitress...made massive tips because of the old "Irish Charm TM " (and I had my hair died auburn at the time) as I was working in Chicago, a traditionally very Irish city. I didn´t get paid for the whole Summer. They never gave me my cheque and when I went chasing that money, they basically told me to eff off!! I worked for them for free! I was probably exploited more because I was a temporary immigrant than anything else though.
Sorry! Off topic!!0 -
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maybe the latter explains some of the formermetrovelvet wrote: »I dunno. It strikes me the gender relations in Ireland are particularly fraught but I can really only compare to the US and haven't a clue why. But they are stitched with contention.
And i'm sorry but the men spend far too much time in the pub. its a fair point (about relations being fraught between genders)
unfortunately i've often heard irish women described as harsh or "tough cookies" but never by irish men:D which seems odd. its a defensive tactic for sure. i mean, even as a girl, you meet somebody's friend in a pub and think "she is so into herself" and after chatting with her you find yourself agreeing to go for coffee during the week or something.....i never thought too much about it tbh, just kinda wrote things like that off as "don't judge a book..." situationEve_Dublin wrote: »I would absolutely admit that Irish women can be too harsh. I don´t think any of us like that aspect of ourselves but then I´d also say Irish women wouldn´t be as confident or as comfortable with themselves generally as other nationalities. We have a lot more hangups for whatever reason. I´m not making excuses but just trying to explain that I know my defensiveness in the past came down to a lack of self-esteem. How can I put it into words....people don´t react so defensively, so harshly for no reason. There´s an underlying issue there.
i know it took a massive row (about this particular trait) with one of my exes some years ago for me to take his complements as they were intended.....complements. not reading into it, not trying to figure out the catchEve_Dublin wrote: »Irish men can be awful peetakers at the best of times...I found I was treated more as a buddy than a girlfriend a lot of the time...that´s cool but I rarely felt I was given the special treatment I see foreign men give their foreign girlfriends....with most Irish exes compliments weren´t given unless a few drinks were had. Perhaps the fact that Irish culture is so equal in comparison to other European countries skews things a little bit. A lot of Irish men don´t think we need or want to be spoiled or treated like a "lady"...but of course we do. If you´re going to treat us like your buddy instead of your girlfriend, then were going to act that way...or visa versa...chicken or the egg...I don´t know. All I know is I don´t know how to handle being treated like a lady by this fella (sorry to go on about him so much)...it´s all a totally new experience for me and I have to say, I love it. I´m a softer person around him.
to be fair, if we take them that badly, i can understand why irish men would be hesitant about actually giving them. if you feel like you are going to war to deliver a complement, it doesn't exactly make you feel relaxed:D0 -
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Or the former explains some of the lattermaybe the latter explains some of the former
:D
Very much so. Maybe it is because we are more equal socially?its a fair point (about relations being fraught between genders)
True. I think its because Irish men are used to Irish women and vice versa. I have noted in the guys who have "gone foreign" they do mention it.unfortunately i've often heard irish women described as harsh or "tough cookies" but never by irish men:D which seems odd.
Yep. Like I mentioned in another thread I have heard foreign women describe Irish women to be hard to get close to. Even more than men saying it. I think as a culture in general we can be very defensive. Men and women.its a defensive tactic for sure. i mean, even as a girl, you meet somebody's friend in a pub and think "she is so into herself" and after chatting with her you find yourself agreeing to go for coffee during the week or something.....i never thought too much about it tbh, just kinda wrote things like that off as "don't judge a book..." situation
That sums it up. It can feel like hard work as a guy when all you wanted to do was be nice. Even if you spot its the insecurity it's still difficult. Obviously some are worse than others. It's not everyone by a long shot. Just in general. One ex I had to leave for this very reason. The constant defensiveness and feeling of suspicion was just so much work.to be fair, if we take them that badly, i can understand why irish men would be hesitant about actually giving them. if you feel like you are going to war to deliver a complement, it doesn't exactly make you feel relaxed:DRejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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pretty much.....i smile, try to look like i genuinely believe the compliment (which sometimes i actually do) and drop defensesEve_Dublin wrote: »However, I guess if you learn to accept compliments, you might start believing them.
after a while, you start enjoying them 0 -
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