Americans and soccer

eagle eye

davyjose wrote: »

I think you're being slightly disingeuous eagle eye, because you've picked one single aspect of american sports where I might be wrong.

You know that for those of us that watch American Sports, we're in a Golden age -- you spend enough time in those forums to know that. But in terms of the mess FIFA are making of soccer, we're in the doldrums.

This isn't a "Us V Them" thread, it's more a thread borne from the ****e we've seen the last few years. And American sports (or more pertinently American sports fans) are a good reference point. Because for the most part, they run their sports well.

Thomas Mueller misses a semi final because he gets two yellows four games apart, that's the kind of gee-eyed, catch-all discipline this world cup had. No mediation, no intelligance involved, just bullsh!t, know-nothing rules.

I don't see where you are going with this. What is your point?

Is it the football you are complaining about or the officiating or both?

There are so many things to be discussed if its more than officiating.

As for American sports, the NFL is miles ahead of anybody as far as replay technology rules are concerned. I like the idea of replays but to be fair American football is a stop/start sport so its cannot be compared to soccer.

If you are talking about the football I will reply about that.

davyjose

dor83 wrote: »

I honestly thin it depends on how you look at it and you are also comparing domestic sports in the US with international football, should you not compare domestic football in the top European leagues to it instead?

If you were to do that I think football would come off a lot better than comparing to what has been a bad World Cup, look at the top 5 leagues in European football, the EPL had a very exciting title race and race for 4th, Serie A had it's most competitive season in years, Bundesliga is always competitive, Ligue 1 was unbelievable this year and la Liga was not bad either.

I actually held back a bit because I believe that International soccer is actually purer than club football. Truly, it is impossible to manipulate (or buy) victory in Any American sport (despite what happened this week with LeBron James - and that is being dealt with next season by the NBA anyway.)

Look at Man city though. Literally, they will buy a league. now, I'm a Man United fan and I'll be called a hypocrite, but the same - we are in a position of power, perhaps unfairly, even though we're one of the most supported teams on earth. That cannot happen in America.

At the end of the day, this isn't about which sport is better, it's about huge holes in the system, and we don't need to be baseball, or basketball fans to look at how it's being done across the pond, and maybe take a leaf out of their book.

SarahBM

Mac Masters wrote: »

Meh, international football is muc, watch the CL or EPL, that's where the proper football is IMO.

I think you should put La Liga in there before the EPL. way better standard. in my honest opinion. but if you want controversy and bbad decisions, ya then EPL will do!

I love how the USA have embraced soccer. it doesnt just belong to the English like. I said a few months ago that the USA would so well in the World Cup and every one laughed at me, and the very same people said they did well when they got to the last 16. so there.

and I remember John Duggan mocking Ian Dempsey on Today FM when he said he was going to back USA to do well.

GO USA!

davyjose

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't see where you are going with this. What is your point?

I've already made my point, and I've already gone where I'm going. I don't believe FIFA have a proper handle on how to run the sport, and a look at some of the American models would make the best sport in the world, better.

Nothing is perfect, of course, but some systems are better than others.

tolosenc

davyjose wrote: »

That cannot happen in America.

*cough* Yankees *cough* *cough*



With winning the Lombardi, the WS, Lord Stanley being the pinnacle of those sports, the WC makes for a great as a comparison.

dfx-

A fair few like it though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbn3rOPmR9w

eagle eye

davyjose wrote: »

I've already made my point, and I've already gone where I'm going. I don't believe FIFA have a proper handle on how to run the sport, and a look at some of the American models would make the best sport in the world, better.

Nothing is perfect, of course, but some systems are better than others.

There is a huge difference in so many ways. Soccer is huge all around the globe at amateur and professional levels. Its a very, very old sport too. It takes a lot of change things. Fifa are the organisation that runs International football but then you have organisations in every continent and country that looks after the sport. You have the clubs then and they are businesses, they are not part of a franchise setup like a lot of American organisations including the MLS.

dor83

davyjose wrote: »

I actually held back a bit because I believe that International soccer is actually purer than club football. Truly, it is impossible to manipulate (or buy) victory in Any American sport (despite what happened this week with LeBron James - and that is being dealt with next season by the NBA anyway.)

Look at Man city though. Literally, they will buy a league. now, I'm a Man United fan and I'll be called a hypocrite, but the same - we are in a position of power, perhaps unfairly, even though we're one of the most supported teams on earth. That cannot happen in America.

At the end of the day, this isn't about which sport is better, it's about huge holes in the system, and we don't need to be baseball, or basketball fans to look at how it's being done across the pond, and maybe take a leaf out of their book.

In my opinion if you want to look for a model on how football should be run then we should be looking at two things.

Firstly, on the financial side of things every league should take a good look at how Germany run it, they are the most financially stable of the top European leagues because of the rules implemented and combining this with the new UEFA rules will sort that side out imo. I know you will probably say that it's still not fair that the big clubs are able to spend so much but I think that clubs should be able to spend money if they make it but not spend more than they make.

Secondly, on the officiating we should really take a long hard look at how it is done in Rugby as it has far lees impact on how the game progresses than NFL, by which I mean it doesn't slow the game down. They also have a lot of respect for the ref in rugby, unlike football, but I also blame refs for this as much as players in football because if refs started penalising players for harassing them they would soon stop, but they to lenient on it in football.

I also don't think it is fair to compare a domestic sport to an international sport, it is a lot easier to get your house in order when you are the sole governing body to when you have to deal with many and are trying to keep them all happy.

OPENROAD

dor83 wrote: »

In my opinion if you want to look for a model on how football should be run then we should be looking at two things.

Firstly, on the financial side of things every league should take a good look at how Germany run it, they are the most financially stable of the top European leagues because of the rules implemented and combining this with the new UEFA rules will sort that side out imo. I know you will probably say that it's still not fair that the big clubs are able to spend so much but I think that clubs should be able to spend money if they make it but not spend more than they make.

Secondly, on the officiating we should really take a long hard look at how it is done in Rugby as it has far lees impact on how the game progresses than NFL, by which I mean it doesn't slow the game down. They also have a lot of respect for the ref in rugby, unlike football, but I also blame refs for this as much as players in football because if refs started penalising players for harassing them they would soon stop, but they to lenient on it in football.

I also don't think it is fair to compare a domestic sport to an international sport, it is a lot easier to get your house in order when you are the sole governing body to when you have to deal with many and are trying to keep them all happy.

+1

tolosenc

Well, at keast it's not this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1khn0OxDLA

Chardee MacDennis

davyjose wrote: »

It's not just officiating though. The salary cap, the draft, you could argue these are systems that manipulate the sports, but they are designed to promote an evenness. But in the NFL (my favourite sport, behind football), the referees have GOT to explain their decision. A simple change like that could make a huge difference - again, just one example of why the sport is geared to at least TRY to promote fairness.

It's sad I feel this way on the night of the world cup final, lads ... but I just fcuking do. And looking into the season ahead, I'm not exactly reeling with optimism.

they do have to explain their decisions, just not to you.

and just google "nba referee bets" to see how good the nba refs are, they are just as bad as football refs in their bias towards big players too...

therecklessone

davyjose wrote: »

Don't expect too many to agree with me, but at least now we can stop giving a fcuk why America doesn't like Soccer.

QED

One would have to start giving a fúck first.

pickarooney

I find myself agreeing with a lot of the points made, but ultimately I couldn't care less if the Americans, or the Indians or the Chinese, watch soccer. For all that might or might not be good about the NFL I'm never going to start following it because the game just holds no appeal for me and the same goes for baseball, cricket and badminton.

Brendog

Well they are becoming more favourable of the sport.

Probably with the likes of David Beckham and Christiano Ronaldo they see the high-life of the game and the wealth it brings.

Basically its just another form of celebrity-ism for them.

rovingrover

Pauleta wrote: »

The USA had the biggest number of supporters at the World Cup in the 1st round and sold more jerseys per head for population than any other country in the lead up to the World Cup. I think the OP opinion on football fans in America is about 15 years out of date.

While the stat is true this does not mean that the U.S. were even close to being the best supported team in South Africa. Many of those ticket sales were to ex pats from other countries who could afford to travel. Mexico had far more fans there than the U.S. but almost all of them live in the U.S.

There was a loyal passionate band of football fans from the U.S. but they were pretty small in number.

Anthony Walsh

You know what annoys me most about football these days and one person has pointed it out is the fact that cheating is some what apart of the sport now, a player running into the box and goes down and the commentators say he was playing for the free kick, a few years ago there would have been up roar over this petty behavour, what happened to real men in the sport. Watch the hurling yesterday and John Mullane took a whack across his legs with a hurl and jumped up. The likes of drogba(who at the end of the EPL last season wasn't as bad) going down in the box or outside the box is ridiculous, look at the size of the boy. As a Man U fan I used to think Rooney was like the 'ardest man but I must have been blinded, against AC Milan I think it was he rolled around as if he got shot and jumped back up (I could be wrong about the match might have been Man City). American Sports though, I hear about very little of this petty and unwanted behavour. Ok there are other scandals but at least its left off the pitch and the fans can enjoy the game.

Xavi6

tolosenc wrote: »

Well, at keast it's not this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1khn0OxDLA

You seem to quite enjoy taking pot shots at other sports, us 'wendyballers' included.

Click Me

:rolleyes:

keane2097

eagle eye wrote: »

I like the idea of replays but to be fair American football is a stop/start sport so its cannot be compared to soccer.

This is a fallacy.

The ball spends an absolutely inordinate time out of play in every soccer match.

I've pointed out before on other threads that everytime a shot is taken, tackle made, offside called etc, you will have seen a replay of it from six different angles by the time the ball is back in play. Video reffing would have a negligible impact on the "flow" of the game if properly implemented.

irishh_bob

davyjose wrote: »

I doubt too many care, but my time is split between here and the states, and well... throughout my childhood, i always thought the yanks were off their rocker not being fans of our beloved sport.

Now... I can see their point. First of all, every American Soccer fan on earth is wondering why they had a goal disallowed against slovenia -- in their world, refereeing has a degree of accuracy, and culpability.

More importantly, they've just had a super bowl with records broken, with some of the greatest to ever play the game in it, and some of the greatest ever not even getting that far -- Like Cruyff Pele and Maradona trying to squeeze into two final spots. The sport is ever-increasingly improving (unlike ours). In the NBA finals, we saw a true great (the only guy in the WC Nike ad with any success) drag his team through a final where through 7 games they spent the last 56 minutes behind, until they won in the last 4 (again in an era where their version of Maradona isn't even in the finals).

What do we get, for the once every four year masterpiece of our sport ... we get this slop tonight!!

Don't expect too many to agree with me, but at least now we can stop giving a fcuk why America doesn't like Soccer.

QED

heard a guy from espn on off the ball recently who explained very well why he believed americans have never taken to soccer

1 . thier isnt enough constant excitement ( scoring )
2. you cant use your hands , americans dont like being restrained
3 . most important of all , america didnt invent it and they dont make the rules, FIFA is some foreign org like the U.N or the EU

irishh_bob

keane2097 wrote: »

This is a fallacy.

The ball spends an absolutely inordinate time out of play in every soccer match.

I've pointed out before on other threads that everytime a shot is taken, tackle made, offside called etc, you will have seen a replay of it from six different angles by the time the ball is back in play. Video reffing would have a negligible impact on the "flow" of the game if properly implemented.

the ball is out of play twice as much in rugby yet they have video technology

keane2097

irishh_bob wrote: »

the ball is out of play twice as much in rugby yet they have video technology

The ball being out of play a lot is a reason why video technology can be implemented easily.

I think you misundertood the thrust of my post.

Walsh

You can't compare International Football to the Club Sports of the USA? We have a Champions League Final each year which is our Superbowl! You don't see the USA competing against other Countries in American football, Why? Because people think it's over-commercialised boring Sh*te. Fair enough with Basketball it's non stop and at international level it's competed at every 4 years just like the World Cup but just because you've watched a supposedly below par World Cup, theres no need to compare it to the shiny Super-Bowl?

parker kent

I agree with davyjose, soccer is in danger of disappearing up itself. I love it more than any other sport and I'll defend it to the hilt in the face of the "rugby is real sport" type of debates you get these days, but there are so many issues that need to be addressed in soccer.

First off, cheating is endemic in the game. Every decision, every corner, every tackle is met with protesting, feigning injury etc. It is terrible to watch grown men throwing themselves to the floor when their shoulder is brushed by a hand. Watch what happens when 2 team-mates run into each other by accident, they stand up like the strong, athletes they really are. The likes of Ronaldo and Drogba are over 6 feet tall, built like a tank but fall over like a toddler learning to walk every time somebody comes near them. I could type all day about the other forms of cheating and "gamesmanship" in football but you all know what I am referring to.

Then away from the pitch, FIFA are a collection of corrupt, dishonest shysters. The likes of Jack Warner and Sepp Blatter are a disgrace. The Observer have a weekly column that specialises in highlighting the hypocrisy from FIFA.

If football were to become even more popular in the USA (acknowledging that 20 million people watched the Ghana game) it needs not just to match the organisation of the US sports, but to be better than them. It is no use to pick holes in baseball or basketball. FIFA need to dump the corrupt and let football people run the game.

patmac

tolosenc wrote: »

Well, at keast it's not this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1khn0OxDLA

Well that is because supporters are kept of the pitch, they weren't the only thugs on display yesterday just look at Van Bommel, and the referee was amateur as opposed to the much hyped English referee.
There was an incident at the end of that match when a Meath player got a punch in the face and instead of rolling around the ground like he was shot, he just pointed it out to the linesman and got on with it, at least that crap hasn't entered the GAA yet, but it is only a matter of time.

Soccer is in a state, I love the way Spain play the game going forward, but their's and everyone else's play acting is destroying the game, my 2 nephew's 8 and 10 are making playacting an artform, this should have been stamped out year's ago but now everyone is at it.
This and the obscene wages players get are killing the game.

Walsh

patmac wrote: »

Well that is because supporters are kept of the pitch, they weren't the only thugs on display yesterday just look at Van Bommel, and the referee was amateur as opposed to the much hyped English referee.

There was an incident at the end of that match when a Meath player got a punch in the face and instead of rolling around the ground like he was shot, he just pointed it out to the linesman and got on with it, at least that crap hasn't entered the GAA yet, but it is only a matter of time.

If it was any kind of a sport people wouldn't be getting punches in the face? GAA is just barbaric.

patmac

Walsh wrote: »

If it was any kind of a sport people wouldn't be getting punches in the face? GAA is just barbaric.

I'm not getting into that, but the Dutch were just as barbaric yesterday.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055962357&page=77

Fr Tod Umptious

irishh_bob wrote: »

heard a guy from espn on off the ball recently who explained very well why he believed americans have never taken to soccer

1 . thier isnt enough constant excitement ( scoring )
2. you cant use your hands , americans dont like being restrained
3 . most important of all , america didnt invent it and they dont make the rules, FIFA is some foreign org like the U.N or the EU

that is kinda true.
There is a great book called 'Soccer in Football World' by David Wangerin, that is essentially a history about soccer in America
One reason for it's failure to become popular was because in the early part of the 20th century, when America was a very insular state, soccer was always run by immigrants, Scots mainly, and seen a a very closed shop, and this did not really endear the game to Americans.

I listen online to a Boston sports station, WEEI, and the morning show presenters are both 50 something Americans. They are typical non soccer fan middle aged Americans and their discussion about the WC final was, 'What the hell are people telling us to watch the WC for when it was a pathetic 1-0 game' and how most of the WC was the same.
They also alluded to how easy soccer players dive, fake injury, whine at the ref etc. All of which are very valid points if you ask me.

You often hear Americans mention that when they were young they were always told that two things would become popular in America in the near future, one was soccer the other was the metric system.

Johnny Utah

Anthony Walsh wrote: »

You know what annoys me most about football these days and one person has pointed it out is the fact that cheating is some what apart of the sport now, a player running into the box and goes down and the commentators say he was playing for the free kick, a few years ago there would have been up roar over this petty behavour, what happened to real men in the sport. Watch the hurling yesterday and John Mullane took a whack across his legs with a hurl and jumped up. The likes of drogba(who at the end of the EPL last season wasn't as bad) going down in the box or outside the box is ridiculous, look at the size of the boy. As a Man U fan I used to think Rooney was like the 'ardest man but I must have been blinded, against AC Milan I think it was he rolled around as if he got shot and jumped back up (I could be wrong about the match might have been Man City). American Sports though, I hear about very little of this petty and unwanted behavour. Ok there are other scandals but at least its left off the pitch and the fans can enjoy the game.

patmac wrote: »

Well that is because supporters are kept of the pitch, they weren't the only thugs on display yesterday just look at Van Bommel, and the referee was amateur as opposed to the much hyped English referee.
There was an incident at the end of that match when a Meath player got a punch in the face and instead of rolling around the ground like he was shot, he just pointed it out to the linesman and got on with it, at least that crap hasn't entered the GAA yet, but it is only a matter of time.

Soccer is in a state, I love the way Spain play the game going forward, but their's and everyone else's play acting is destroying the game, my 2 nephew's 8 and 10 are making playacting an artform, this should have been stamped out year's ago but now everyone is at it.
This and the obscene wages players get are killing the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHuU3EdJ1NQ





The GAA, where men are men and shorts are short!

keane2097

Way to make a complete bollocks of a decent thread lads :rolleyes:

Johnny Utah

keane2097 wrote: »

Way to make a complete bollocks of a decent thread lads :rolleyes:

This thread was never decent. American sports are shite, conveniently interspersed with television advertisments. American sports are boring and stupid, hence why they're only played by Americans. The Baseball World Series-> ffs :rolleyes: