Teaching English in Korea

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

The people you are talking about are called gyopos. They are Korean ethnically but were raised abroad. They can't get the same status as full Koreans unless they go through an arduous process which involves giving up their adopted countries citizenship and taking Korean citizenship. Usually for men this involves going through 2 years of military service.

I didn't say they had the same status as Koreans, I said they were able to work where they wanted.

Gyopos get a special kind of visa which gives them residential status and allows them to work wherever and with whoever they like, but they are still not 'real Korean' citizens. Their visa must also be regularly updated and they have other disadvantages, not the least of which is that they are considered 'semi-foreign' by the locals which has work related and social implications.

I know that. I said they can work where they want. That's it. They are generally considered foreigners but they still have an advantage over most foreigners.

Usually gyopos get paid less and they are in less demand then 'real foreigners'. For example the most highly desired teacher is a 'white blonde Canadian female', absolutely nothing to do with their English teaching skills but rather their appearance which goes down well with Mommy and Daddy when they see a 'real foreigner' teaching little Kim and Park. They are also expected to act according to Korean culture while at the same time been excluded from that culture.

I know tons of Korean born foreigners and they haven't really had any issues like this. Obviously you need to be them to know what it's like, but one of my best friends is a gyopo and she's considered American as soon as she opens her mouth. I'm sure in some ways they are expected to 'act' Korean because they look Korean but it's the same with anyone anywhere in that situation.

Its not that handy at all in the English teaching industry as I've highlighted above.

But what I mean is, they do have more freedom than the average foreigner. They're not going to be kicked out of Korea for getting fired. They're free to go into other jobs. One of my friends started out teaching English and then went into a different industry. Another one was able to stay in Korea basically doing nothing for a while because her Irish boyfriend was finishing his contract long after hers had finished and she didn't feel like working (rich daddy). For your average white Irish teacher, you lose your job and you're gone.

I used to work with a few gyopos. We got paid the same but they got no free apartment, they also had to work an extra 2 hours at night and were also expected to conform to confucian parts of the culture.

That sounds totally dodgy. Anyone I know was given the same benefits as anyone else - flown over, apartment provided etc.

MikeC101

[quote=[Deleted User];67091359]Yes, and I think your employers basically own your visa as well. If you get fired, it's time up for you in Korea. As far as I know anyway - is this the case, monosharp?[/QUOTE]

Yup, you've a limited time frame to leave the country if you're fired - I think it's thirty days. Hence some of the dodgier schools trying stuff like eleventh month firing (to get out of paying bonus + airfare). Even though you can fight your case, you'd have to leave the country, come back on a tourist visa, and then spend however long it takes trying to get a result. Though I think the labour board take a very dim view of this, and will rule in favour of the foreigner, someone in their first year in the country is unlikely to fight something like that.

monosharp wrote: »

Usually gyopos get paid less and they are in less demand then 'real foreigners'. For example the most highly desired teacher is a 'white blonde Canadian female', absolutely nothing to do with their English teaching skills but rather their appearance which goes down well with Mommy and Daddy when they see a 'real foreigner' teaching little Kim and Park. They are also expected to act according to Korean culture while at the same time been excluded from that culture.

The above sounds very much like a typical hakwon outlook - it's all about the apearance - though having said that the one I worked in had kyopos there, paid the same, same accomodation set up. They've got a lot of opportunities your average e2 won't have as well.

RATM wrote: »

1. Can a foreigner own a car/motorbike in S.Korea? Whats insurance like? I know they drive like crazy but am used to it as I've driven in Asia before.

I learned to ride a motorbike in Korea. If you know what Asian traffic is like, then Korea is one of the better places in Asia to ride. I rode a bike with plates registered to the guy who owned it years back, never a problem. I then upgraded to a bigger bike with no registration, plates or insurance and rode that for a year, no problems. Even though I was stopped and breathalysed by police a few times. There were rumours that the police were starting to crack down on bikes with no plates, but nothing ever happened where I lived. I wouldn't try doing that in Seoul mind.

One of my friends was knocked off his bike by a truck (who was 100% in the wrong.) Police arrived, and they basically said "The truck driver is wrong, but maybe you don't have a license or insurance, so maybe we forget the whole thing." And left it at that.

Some great Korean bikes available very cheaply (my Hyosung that sells for 3000 plus here cost me under 800 in Korea second hand), and cheap to run. Insurance was dirt cheap too (around 100,000 won for a year, if memory serves), really I'd recommend you get your bike plated and insured in case of an accident. What the insurance covered was pretty limited too, it didn't cover theft or you hitting a pedestrian. (Scooter theft was the only crime I ever heard of much in my local area, actually).

monosharp

[quote=[Deleted User];67093099]I didn't say they had the same status as Koreans, I said they were able to work where they wanted.[/quote]

You said;

so they have whatever number/documents Koreans have and are able to work anywhere they like.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out they don't have 'whatever numbers/documents Koreans have'

I know that. I said they can work where they want. That's it. They are generally considered foreigners but they still have an advantage over most foreigners.

Advantage in what ? Advantage in staying here ? yes. Advantage in getting private jobs ? yes.

Advantage for getting good full-time teaching positions with X amount of benefits ? No. They actually have a disadvantage in many cases specifically because of their heritage.

I know tons of Korean born foreigners and they haven't really had any issues like this. Obviously you need to be them to know what it's like, but one of my best friends is a gyopo and she's considered American as soon as she opens her mouth.

Your not making any sense. If she's a gyopo then they will view her as a gyopo. It doesn't make a bit of difference if she speaks with an American accent or doesn't speak a word of Korean.

A gyopo is someone of Korean descent (usually) born outside Korea. In common usage it almost always means Koreans who were born in the US, Canada or Australia.

Korean adoptees are called something else which I can't remember at the moment. But they can also be called gyopo.

At its simplest, a gyopo is a Korean who lived most of their life outside Korea. Nationality or language or accent has absolutely nothing to do with it.

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

You said;



I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out they don't have 'whatever numbers/documents Koreans have'

They do have that number. I didn't say they had ALL the documents/rights Koreans have.

Advantage in what ? Advantage in staying here ? yes. Advantage in getting private jobs ? yes.

They're a lot of advantages. The right to remain in Korea is a pretty big one for most people.

Advantage for getting good full-time teaching positions with X amount of benefits ? No. They actually have a disadvantage in many cases specifically because of their heritage.

I can only say I've never seen anyone being disadvantaged (financially) for being a gyopo.

Your not making any sense. If she's a gyopo then they will view her as a gyopo. It doesn't make a bit of difference if she speaks with an American accent or doesn't speak a word of Korean.

It makes perfect sense. They think she's Korean when they see her, then when they realise she's American, they no longer expect her to speak/act Korean at all. I know other gyopos who speak perfect or good Korean and they're treated like Koreans.

A gyopo is someone of Korean descent (usually) born outside Korea. In common usage it almost always means Koreans who were born in the US, Canada or Australia.

Korean adoptees are called something else which I can't remember at the moment. But they can also be called gyopo.

At its simplest, a gyopo is a Korean who lived most of their life outside Korea. Nationality or language or accent has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It can mean either children of Korean parents who emigrated or children adopted outside Korea. There is a huge difference between somewhat who was brought up by Korean parents, speaks the language and understands the customs and someone who was adopted by a white Jewish family and hadn't tasted kimchi until they arrived in Korea.

monosharp

[quote=[Deleted User];67104010]They do have that number. I didn't say they had ALL the documents/rights Koreans have.[/quote]

And what exactly is 'that' number that they have the same as Koreans ?

I have an ID card right this second in front of my face, on it is an ID number practically the same as a normal Korean citizens except it contains digits which identify me as a foreigner which means I can't do many things with it that a Korean could both by design and by accident.

Gyopos get an ID card with an ID number which contains digits which identify them as a gyopo, not as a korean citizen.

I can only say I've never seen anyone being disadvantaged (financially) for being a gyopo.

Have you worked here ? I was under the impression you hadn't.

It makes perfect sense. They think she's Korean when they see her, then when they realise she's American, they no longer expect her to speak/act Korean at all. I know other gyopos who speak perfect or good Korean and they're treated like Koreans.

No it makes absolutely no sense. A gyopo is a Korean raised/born abroad or spent most of their life abroad. That is the meaning of the word.

An American of Korean descent IS a gyopo. It makes no difference if they speak the language or not. A Korean-American IS a gyopo to Koreans.

It can mean either children of Korean parents who emigrated or children adopted outside Korea. There is a huge difference between somewhat who was brought up by Korean parents, speaks the language and understands the customs and someone who was adopted by a white Jewish family and hadn't tasted kimchi until they arrived in Korea.

No they are not.

An adoptee is called an 이변아 (Ee-bwan-ah).

I'm going to cut this short. I'm married to a Korean, living in Korea. She has given me the above information of which I already knew.

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

And what exactly is 'that' number that they have the same as Koreans ?

I have an ID card right this second in front of my face, on it is an ID number practically the same as a normal Korean citizens except it contains digits which identify me as a foreigner which means I can't do many things with it that a Korean could both by design and by accident.

Gyopos get an ID card with an ID number which contains digits which identify them as a gyopo, not as a korean citizen.

Yes, and that ID number enables them to work where they like, like Korean citizens can. Why do you keep trying to argue about this? Where did I say gyopos have the same rights as Koreans?

Have you worked here ? I was under the impression you hadn't.

I have lived in Korea.

No it makes absolutely no sense. A gyopo is a Korean raised/born abroad or spent most of their life abroad. That is the meaning of the word.

An American of Korean descent IS a gyopo. It makes no difference if they speak the language or not. A Korean-American IS a gyopo to Koreans.

Are you saying gyopos who are brought up speaking Korean and know the culture are treated exactly the same as those who weren't?

No they are not.

An adoptee is called an 이변아 (Ee-bwan-ah).

I'm going to cut this short. I'm married to a Korean, living in Korea. She has given me the above information of which I already knew.

An ee-bwan-ah can still be a gyopo, according to what I've been told.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_diaspora

For those of you who are interested in this but don't have a degree, China is a good alternative. You won't make the kind of money one can make in Korea, but the cost of living in China is much cheaper.

If you have experience working, and don't have a degree you can use that experience to cover the requirements of the Visa. Alternatively if you have a degree and no experience, you can work in China. All it takes is getting an employer to "sponsor" your visa. The common joke is that if you're white and are a native speaker, all other obstacles can be surmounted or faked by the employer. In the school I worked for, I was the oldest being in my 30's, and the other 4 foreign teachers were all under 21, each of which had the basic Tefl cert.

Personally, having worked as a teacher in China, I'd recommend China over Korea. There isn't the Xenophobia which can sometimes occur in Korea, and we can have awesome lifestyles over there. You'll get paid peanuts by European standards, so I wouldn't suggest you'll have much coming back. But its a great way to spend the period while the Irish Job market recovers. It helps that the food is great (and varied), the nightlife scene is fun, the girls are stunning, and it the kind of life experience you can put on your resume.

As said earlier, Dave's ESL cafe is probably one of the best sites on the net. It will have any precise details you might need. Last note, there are pitfalls, and scams. So just do some research before you leap.

Alternatively, drop me a message or reply here.

monosharp

[quote=[Deleted User];67104347]Yes, and that ID number enables them to work where they like, like Korean citizens can. [/quote]

Yes and I agreed with that. What I disagreed with was you suggesting that they get the same number as Koreans do, they don't. If you'll go back and read my post you'd see I said what you said was 'Not 100% accurate'.

Why do you keep trying to argue about this? Where did I say gyopos have the same rights as Koreans?

Abraham Yummy Vessel wrote:

so they have whatever number/documents Koreans have and are able to work anywhere they like.

I didn't say you were wrong, I said you weren't 100% accurate.

I have lived in Korea.

I'm a bit confused. At the start of this thread you talked about your boyfriends experience in Korea, not your own.

Are you saying gyopos who are brought up speaking Korean and know the culture are treated exactly the same as those who weren't?

Treated, no. A gyopo that speaks Korean and knows the culture will of course be treated differently to a gyopo that doesn't. Just because of the language itself they will be treated differently, but they are all still gyopo.

But that's not what we are discussing.

You said the following;

Abraham Yummy Vessel wrote:

They are generally considered foreigners

Absolutely not. I don't know how anyone could live here and have even the most basic of interaction with the culture and not understand this.

A 'foreigner' to Koreans is someone who isn't korean (racially). It has nothing to do with nationality or language whatsoever, nor does it have anything to do with the country where your currently residing. It's entirely based on blood, your genetic background.

North Koreans are Korean, Chinese Koreans are Korean, Japanese Koreans are Korean, American-Koreans are Korean. etc They are all 'gyopo'. (There are different terms for the Chinese Koreans and Japanese but its not important here) Korean people 'can' refer to them all as gyopo.

Simply put, gyopo is an all encompassing word for Korean people (racially) who were born/raised or lived a majority of their lives in other countries. But there are specific words for koreans from specific countries and from particular incidents of immigration or from particular periods of the Korean peninsula's history.

You could take an American of Korean descent, 10 generations living in America with no idea of Korean culture or language and they are still considered gyopo first, not American.

This is not the same as Irish vs Irish-American.

You also said;

she's considered American as soon as she opens her mouth

If she is of Korean descent and they know that, then no, she will not be considered American. Unless she lies to them (because it'll be one of the first questions that she'll be asked) and tells them shes of Chinese/Japanese descent. Otherwise she will be considered a gyopo no matter what comes out of her mouth.

An ee-bwan-ah can still be a gyopo, according to what I've been told.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_diaspora

I said that didn't I ?

monosharp wrote:

Korean adoptees are called something else which I can't remember at the moment. But they can also be called gyopo.

monosharp

Deleted User wrote: »

For those of you who are interested in this but don't have a degree, China is a good alternative. You won't make the kind of money one can make in Korea, but the cost of living in China is much cheaper.

Mate do you have a link to a website offering jobs ? Not daves esl.

Not for myself, I'm stuck in Korea, but I have a few mates asking me about teaching without a degree and I told them to check out China, Thailand and SE Asia.

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

Mate do you have a link to a website offering jobs ? Not daves esl.

Not for myself, I'm stuck in Korea, but I have a few mates asking me about teaching without a degree and I told them to check out China, Thailand and SE Asia.

Just enter into google "esl teaching", and the country of choice. You'll get back loads of sites with offers. Just remember that they're ad's rather than definite jobs, and the contract is likely to be different. I'd also recommend being careful with recruiters. They'll lie through their teeth just to get you signed up with their customers. [Dave's is pretty crap for job offers... but its a goldmine for information on the forums]

I've known a few people who did Thailand, and I'd recommend against it. They're tightening up on the qualifications front, and there's so much corruption when it comes to the school administrations themselves. There's also the perception that anyone wanting to come to Thailand without proper teaching certification is just another lad/lass looking for easy sex.

SE Asia is also kinda difficult. There's a host of visa restrictions depending on the country in question, and most are looking for BA holders with a Tefl/Celta. You can find work without, but its likely that it'll be a dodgy school out to manipulate you for all you're worth.

China is simply put the easiest, and has the least amount of scams (if you do some homework).

Two threads (both short) worth reading are:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=72115&highlight=universities

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=77560&highlight=universities

related to University work and Business English. But worth reading for everyone else too.

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

Yes and I agreed with that. What I disagreed with was you suggesting that they get the same number as Koreans do, they don't. If you'll go back and read my post you'd see I said what you said was 'Not 100% accurate'.

But who cares? So I could have worded it slightly better. I don't understand why you're so pedantic and intent on contradicting me. I posted something which would be useful and informative, and is basically accurate and true. If anyone reading this happens to be an adopted Korean, they might realise they are entitled to things that other foreigners aren't. I was just pointing out that *some* people can get around the visa issue.

I'm a bit confused. At the start of this thread you talked about your boyfriends experience in Korea, not your own.

So? Perhaps I think his experience is more suited to this topic?

Treated, no. A gyopo that speaks Korean and knows the culture will of course be treated differently to a gyopo that doesn't. Just because of the language itself they will be treated differently, but they are all still gyopo.

That's not what you were implying.

Absolutely not. I don't know how anyone could live here and have even the most basic of interaction with the culture and not understand this.

A 'foreigner' to Koreans is someone who isn't korean (racially). It has nothing to do with nationality or language whatsoever, nor does it have anything to do with the country where your currently residing. It's entirely based on blood, your genetic background.

North Koreans are Korean, Chinese Koreans are Korean, Japanese Koreans are Korean, American-Koreans are Korean. etc They are all 'gyopo'. (There are different terms for the Chinese Koreans and Japanese but its not important here) Korean people 'can' refer to them all as gyopo.

Simply put, gyopo is an all encompassing word for Korean people (racially) who were born/raised or lived a majority of their lives in other countries. But there are specific words for koreans from specific countries and from particular incidents of immigration or from particular periods of the Korean peninsula's history.

You could take an American of Korean descent, 10 generations living in America with no idea of Korean culture or language and they are still considered gyopo first, not American.

This is not the same as Irish vs Irish-American.

I'm not going into why I think what I think. Rest assured that I am extremely familiar with the culture and plenty of foreign born Koreans. I'm not arguing about the gyopo thing, but can you not get past that word? It's a word we don't use here. Generally speaking, is your average non-Korean speaking American adoptee going to be viewed as more American or more Korean? In my experience, once the Korean realises they're not Korean, they're treated like a foreigner. If some people on a superficial level expect them to 'act' Korean, it's because they 'look' Korean and that happens to people all over the world. Happens to me all the time but deep down they know I'm still a foreigner, albeit a foreigner who looks like them.

If she is of Korean descent and they know that, then no, she will not be considered American. Unless she lies to them (because it'll be one of the first questions that she'll be asked) and tells them shes of Chinese/Japanese descent. Otherwise she will be considered a gyopo no matter what comes out of her mouth.

She's considered an American who looks Korean. Obviously everyone knows she's an ethnic Korean, but they refer to her as the American teacher. Most people do not expect her to speak the language or know the culture beyond the things any foreign teacher is expected to know. I just asked her again and that's what she said.

I said that didn't I ?

And then you disagreed with me when I said it.

No they are not.

An adoptee is called an 이변아 (Ee-bwan-ah).

I thought it might be useful to give an example of how things can go wrong if you don't do some proper research into teaching and also the schools themselves.

I was living in Australia, and my resident application had failed.. my visa was up in 3 days and I didn't want to return to Ireland just yet. So I looked at teaching in Asia since I'd met a few people who had done it while I had stayed in hostels. So I went online, surfed google and daves and finally (all within 2 days) found a recruiter who got me a position with a school in Xi'an teaching Kinder. Due to my research in Daves I knew some basic questions to ask, asked them, got reassurance and signed the contract.

On arriving in China I learned that the school name was different, the ages of the students was different, and the hours to be worked were different. Also due to an agreement the mgt had with existing teachers, they got some holidays when I arrived. Apparently the mgt was supposed to hire 3 teachers instead of just me, and so I took over the classes for 2 teachers making my original classes shift from 15 a week to over 34 classes a week. Fun. Especially for someone who hadn't any previous experience in teaching, and secondly someone who had no experience with small children. Just imagine 20 extremely cute little chinese kids (ages ranged from 3 to 8) who turned into little devils when you're left alone with them.

It was an interesting experience to say the least. The mgt were trouble from day 1, and nothing changed in the 8 months I was there. Problems with wages, holidays, class sizes, contract obligations etc arose on a regular basis. Came close to walking out twice, and actually did so one day, but was lured back in with concessions which were forgotten a month later, and had to be fought over once again.

The reason I describe some of this is not to turn you off teaching. My 1st experience was pretty bad, but mostly because i wasn't careful in checking out the school, and just assumed I could pick up teaching because I was confident in my English level. Alas, It doesn't really work that way.

But the reason I stayed and will return in spite of such an experience is because of the standard of life you can have in China. I was clubbing 5 nights a week, eating out every night, meeting interesting people, and actually finding extremely hot women with decent personalities and intelligent to boot. (I know quite a few western women who have found their "perfect" asian or western guy in China too).

I hope i haven't scared too many of you away. There are plenty of perfect jobs out there. Just do the legwork.. and I'd highly recommend doing even a basic Tefl cert to get an idea of what you're doing.

[quote=[Deleted User];67117719]She's considered an American who looks Korean. Obviously everyone knows she's an ethnic Korean, but they refer to her as the American teacher. Most people do not expect her to speak the language or know the culture beyond the things any foreign teacher is expected to know. I just asked her again and that's what she said. [/QUOTE]

Most westerners don't really understand this, but if an Asian wasn't raised in their original country then they're never really considered native. They'll always be treated as a foreigner who can speak the language, but they won't truly accept them. I've seen it time and time again in both China and Japan. I have a Chinese friend who spent 8 years of their childhood in Australia, and when they go back to China they're treated as curiosities.

And there is a rather large difference in dress and attitude by Asians who have grown up (or lived a long time in the west) to that of "domestic"/"natural" Asians. And any Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc will pick on those signals automatically.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Most westerners don't really understand this, but if an Asian wasn't raised in their original country then they're never really considered native. They'll always be treated as a foreigner who can speak the language, but they won't truly accept them. I've seen it time and time again in both China and Japan. I have a Chinese friend who spent 8 years of their childhood in Australia, and when they go back to China they're treated as curiosities.

And there is a rather large difference in dress and attitude by Asians who have grown up (or lived a long time in the west) to that of "domestic"/"natural" Asians. And any Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc will pick on those signals automatically.

I know. It's not just Asia either, it's a lot of places. I was going to say that my American friend even walks like an American I used to pick her out immediately in a sea of Koreans on the street because of her clothes/walk/demeanor. What frustrates her is that in American, she's Asian and in Asia, she's American, but that's a whole other topic.

[quote=[Deleted User];67118243]I know. It's not just Asia either, it's a lot of places. I was going to say that my American friend even walks like an American I used to pick her out immediately in a sea of Koreans on the street because of her clothes/walk/demeanor. What frustrates her is that in American, she's Asian and in Asia, she's American, but that's a whole other topic.[/QUOTE]

<sigh> God I love Asian women with western backgrounds.. or just Asian women in general... hehe.

MikeC101

Deleted User wrote: »

I've known a few people who did Thailand, and I'd recommend against it. They're tightening up on the qualifications front, and there's so much corruption when it comes to the school administrations themselves.

+1. I was there for a year, I picked up a job with a company that specialised in teaching companies in house (it's amazing the amount of well known brands that are supplied by / have subsidiaries producing their stuff in Thailand). Hardly anyone I knew teaching had the correct visa. The new regulation wanted everyone to have done some sort of "culture training", at a pretty high cost, and it took a long time, so the incentive was not to go the legal route.

Those that did have a proper visa had it from being married to a Thai national, not through the job. There was an incident where another school was having some trouble with their foreign teachers - they basically were paying them a ridiculously low amount - and when the teachers complained the school owner reported them all to immigration, and they were all fined and deported. The owner, who was employing them illegaly, had nothing happen to them, and rapidly set about recruiting more teachers.

As well as that, the money isn't great, and cost of living can be pretty high. It can be hard to get the local prices for things, depending on the area you live in. Not that there aren't opportunities, or that it's not a good way to pick up some cash, but I wouldn't specifically come to Thailand for a job.

Deleted User wrote: »

There's also the perception that anyone wanting to come to Thailand without proper teaching certification is just another lad/lass looking for easy sex.

Yeah, perception seems to be you're either a beach bum, just drifting through, or if you dress a bit better, a sex tourist. (Which a good chunk of people there definitely are!)

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope i haven't scared too many of you away. There are plenty of perfect jobs out there. Just do the legwork.. and I'd highly recommend doing even a basic Tefl cert to get an idea of what you're doing.

Good posts klaz, I'm considering China as my next place to work, I've done two years in Korea - teaching kindergarten up to middle school, and a year in Thailand teaching business English to different companies.

I have a BA but no cert of any kind - I'm considering doing the CELTA, but
just not sure if it's worth the time / money. Any ideas on how it would be looked on in China? I'd like to try teaching in a university in China, but I can't start until November, which I think might be a problem with the term dates.

makeorbrake

MikeC101 wrote: »

I'd like to try teaching in a university in China, but I can't start until November, which I think might be a problem with the term dates.

Are the university jobs better - as they are in Korea? ie. better pay, more holidays, etc?

MikeC101

makeorbrake wrote: »

Are the university jobs better - as they are in Korea? ie. better pay, more holidays, etc?

I don't think they're as good compared to other teaching jobs in China, as uni in Korea can be to other jobs in Korea, if that makes sense. The pay doesn't seem to be any better, but the hours seem to be. Holidays too, but I don't know if you're paid for them in China. I'd assume the potential for privates is there as in Korea.

monosharp

[quote=[Deleted User];67117719]But who cares? So I could have worded it slightly better. I don't understand why you're so pedantic and intent on contradicting me.[/quote]

Says the woman who entered this thread correcting my English ? :rolleyes:

Fine, I'll leave it be.

That's not what you were implying.

And why would you say that ?

I'm not going into why I think what I think. Rest assured that I am extremely familiar with the culture and plenty of foreign born Koreans.

More familiar then me ? I highly doubt that.

I'm not arguing about the gyopo thing, but can you not get past that word?

You are the one who started talking about how people are viewed.

It's a word we don't use here.

Of course we don't use it because we don't have an English word that's its equivalent. We don't have the cultural mindset to think 'that' way.

Which is my whole point.

Generally speaking, is your average non-Korean speaking American adoptee going to be viewed as more American or more Korean?

I literally turned around just now and asked my Korean friend, living here in Korea.

Answer: "It depends on what your asking about. His look, his behavior, his attitude."
Question restated: "If you talk about him to other people, what do you refer to him as ? American or gyopo"
Answer: "Gyopo".

Question: "Even if he doesn't speak Korean ? Even if he dresses like a Hip Hop singer ? Even if his family have lived in the US for hundreds of years ?"
Answer: "He's still a gyopo."

Question: "Korean adoptees ?"
Answer: "Yes, gyopo. But I should explain more about them"

In my experience, once the Korean realises they're not Korean, they're treated like a foreigner.

Your using the words 'treated' and 'viewed' interchangeably and your not even specifying what you mean by treated.

They are not treated like a 'foreigner' if by foreigner you mean a white/black American/Canadian/Irish/British/Australian person. They are treated depending on their specific situation and their relationship to the person.

I as an Irish person am always a 외국인 (foreigner) I will be a foreigner to Koreans forever regardless of my passport, regardless of the country we reside in. I went for dinner in a Korean restaurant in Vienna with Korean people, they told the waitress that 'the foreigner' will have this to eat.

They knew me for years, the waitress was a Joseonchok, chinese of korean descent, yet to them I was still the 'foreigner'.

Gyopos can be treated very differently depending on their specific situations, but that does not mean they are treated as foreigners.

To say such a thing shows how little you understand what the word 'foreigner' or 'gyopo' means to Korean people.

If some people on a superficial level expect them to 'act' Korean, it's because they 'look' Korean and that happens to people all over the world.

Of course its because they look korean. Thats my whole point, that their nationality/language doesn't matter.

Happens to me all the time but deep down they know I'm still a foreigner, albeit a foreigner who looks like them.

You of Korean descent ? Don't answer if you don't want to.

She's considered an American who looks Korean.

No, shes considered a gyopo. The same as dozens of my friends here in korea are considered. The ones who speak the language and the ones that don't. They are all considered to be gyopo.

Obviously everyone knows she's an ethnic Korean, but they refer to her as the American teacher.

In English ? Of course they do, English has no equivalent word. In English Koreans even give me the honour of actually calling me "Irish" and not 'foreigner'.

But we are not talking about how they are described in English, we are talking about how Korean people view them and describe them in Korean.

Most people do not expect her to speak the language or know the culture beyond the things any foreign teacher is expected to know. I just asked her again and that's what she said.

And we're back to treated and viewed.

I guarantee you, 100%, that in Korean they call her gyopo. Not American.

I really don't know why I'm arguing with you. I speak Korean, I have dozens of gyopo friends and colleagues. I have many more times that Korean friends and I'm living here in Korea.

You are quite simply wrong. Because you don't understand the cultural mindset here, especially if you're trying to prove it by pointing out what they say in English, which doesn't even have a term for the Korean language meaning of gyopo.

MikeC101

I also just noticed that USIT are advertising jobs in China, Korea and Thailand on the jobs.ie website.

The kicker? They're charging a "placement fee".

Korea - Placement fee €1,599 plus Insurance and visa costs
China - Placement fee €1,299
Thailand - Placement fee €1,299 plus flights, Insurance and visa costs

Hopefully no-one falls for that (they don't even seem to be going down the usual fee charging route of letting you do a free online course to "justify" the charge).

They're also getting paid by the employer for every person they recruit - and probably able to undercut proper recruiters fees by charging the potential employees.

monosharp

Deleted User wrote: »

Most westerners don't really understand this, but if an Asian wasn't raised in their original country then they're never really considered native.

Nor are they considered 'foreign' either. (In Korea)

Its a cultural concept which we don't have.

They'll always be treated as a foreigner who can speak the language, but they won't truly accept them.

Sorry mate, I don't know about other countries but thats not true in Korea.

They are treated very differently to foreigners because to Koreans they are not foreigners, they are part of the Korean 'family'.

Of course its on a person to person basis but in general it can be summed up as follows:

Korean Men (in general) don't like American/Canadian men of Korean descent, for reasons too complicated to go into.
Korean Women (in general) don't care.

But this doesn't mean they are treated as a foreigner, they're treated in a very specific way because of their racial background.

And there is a rather large difference in dress and attitude by Asians who have grown up (or lived a long time in the west) to that of "domestic"/"natural" Asians. And any Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc will pick on those signals automatically.

A female postgrad student here in one of the Universities tried to prove that she and a small group of women could pick out the gyopo students in other universities based on the above. The type and amount of makeup, colour of the skin, hairstyle, clothes etc.

She was proven wrong. Very low rate of success.

monosharp

Visa Requirements –

http://www.tigerenglish.com/teach-english/e-2-working-visa

For anyone that's looking for them.

Also, I highly recommend not using a recruiter. Not because they are 'bad' necessarily but rather because you can find a better position yourself. That and you've as much chance of getting a dodgy school with a recruiter as by doing it yourself.

For jobs check out www.worknplay.co.kr

School names can be googled and usually if they are dodgy you will find them blacklisted.

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

Says the woman who entered this thread correcting my English ? :rolleyes:

At that point, it was relevant. There was a discussion on how qualified you need to be to teach and what you teach in class. As I said, I offended a few people on another thread by implying that grammar wasn't really taught in private schools and that other things were more important.

More familiar then me ? I highly doubt that.

Well, that's up to you to decide.

You are the one who started talking about how people are viewed.

No, you started talking about that. I said that Korean born adoptees have a lot of rights that other foreigners don't, in reply to someone asking about visa and residence issues.

Of course we don't use it because we don't have an English word that's its equivalent. We don't have the cultural mindset to think 'that' way.

You really think Koreans are the only people on the planet to think like that? You don't think Mexicans don't have a word for Mexican-Americans, for example? You don't think this situation exists outside Asia?

I literally turned around just now and asked my Korean friend, living here in Korea.

Answer: "It depends on what your asking about. His look, his behavior, his attitude."
Question restated: "If you talk about him to other people, what do you refer to him as ? American or gyopo"
Answer: "Gyopo".

Question: "Even if he doesn't speak Korean ? Even if he dresses like a Hip Hop singer ? Even if his family have lived in the US for hundreds of years ?"
Answer: "He's still a gyopo."

Question: "Korean adoptees ?"
Answer: "Yes, gyopo. But I should explain more about them"

But what's your point here? Are gyopos expected to act just like Koreans?

Your using the words 'treated' and 'viewed' interchangeably and your not even specifying what you mean by treated.

They are not treated like a 'foreigner' if by foreigner you mean a white/black American/Canadian/Irish/British/Australian person. They are treated depending on their specific situation and their relationship to the person.

I as an Irish person am always a 외국인 (foreigner) I will be a foreigner to Koreans forever regardless of my passport, regardless of the country we reside in. I went for dinner in a Korean restaurant in Vienna with Korean people, they told the waitress that 'the foreigner' will have this to eat.

They knew me for years, the waitress was a Joseonchok, chinese of korean descent, yet to them I was still the 'foreigner'.

So? None of this is new to anyone. I already said that most people will unconsciously assume that a Korean looking person would know about Korean food/culture but in my experience, once they realise they're dealing with someone brought up by American white people, they drop those expectations. And that is not unique to Korea at all. I've been abroad with Irish people and had the local waitress keep addressing me in the language, treating me as one of them despite me not being from the country, just because of my appearance. Once they established I wasn't actually one of them, that stopped. And according to the Korean-Americans I know, that's pretty much how it happens for them.

Gyopos can be treated very differently depending on their specific situations, but that does not mean they are treated as foreigners.

To say such a thing shows how little you understand what the word 'foreigner' or 'gyopo' means to Korean people.

I do understand. I also understand that this is an Irish message board for people asking questions about Korea, so I'm not going to go into ridiculous detail about a topic which I just brushed on in order to let people know that if they happen to be a Korean adoptee, they have more opportunities and rights than your average white Irish person.

Of course its because they look korean. Thats my whole point, that their nationality/language doesn't matter.

And as I said, that happens EVERYWHERE. People make assumptions until they learn more about who you actually are.

You of Korean descent ? Don't answer if you don't want to.

I'm really mixed. Might be part Korean. Might have Korean family. Might have lived there as a child.

In English ? Of course they do, English has no equivalent word. In English Koreans even give me the honour of actually calling me "Irish" and not 'foreigner'.

But we are not talking about how they are described in English, we are talking about how Korean people view them and describe them in Korean.

No, in Korean.

I really don't know why I'm arguing with you. I speak Korean, I have dozens of gyopo friends and colleagues. I have many more times that Korean friends and I'm living here in Korea.

You are quite simply wrong. Because you don't understand the cultural mindset here, especially if you're trying to prove it by pointing out what they say in English, which doesn't even have a term for the Korean language meaning of gyopo.

So don't argue with me. You're the one making a huge deal out of one comment I made, which you know yourself is basically accurate.

monosharp

[quote=[Deleted User];67119946]As I said, I offended a few people on another thread by implying that grammar wasn't really taught in private schools and that other things were more important. [/quote]

And you were right and they were wrong, congratulations.

No, you started talking about that.

No you did.

Abraham Yummy Vessel wrote:

Obviously you need to be them to know what it's like, but one of my best friends is a gyopo and she's considered American as soon as she opens her mouth.

You really think Koreans are the only people on the planet to think like that? You don't think Mexicans don't have a word for Mexican-Americans, for example? You don't think this situation exists outside Asia?

Which only goes to show you don't understand what the word means. Gyopo does not mean Korean-American like we think of it in English.

Koreans think they are part of this racially pure bloodline and that all members of this bloodline are extended family.

Koreans (almost) never say 'My house', 'My husband' or 'My country' etc

They say 'Our house', 'Our husband', 'Our country'.

When you talk to an old person you call them 'Grandfather' or 'Grandmother'. When you talk about your mother or your friends mother, you call her 'Our mother'. Same goes for 'Our brother', 'Our sister'.

When my wife introduces me to people she refers to me as '우리 남평' (Our husband) not as '제 남평' (My husband).

But what's your point here? Are gyopos expected to act just like Koreans?

No.

And according to the Korean-Americans I know, that's pretty much how it happens for them.

Treated or viewed ?

And as I said, that happens EVERYWHERE. People make assumptions until they learn more about who you actually are.

Your not understanding me at all.

When they see someone that looks like a gyopo they view them as a gyopo.
If that person speaks or doesn't speak Korean, if that person has no knowledge of their cultural background or not, if they were 10th generation or simply raised abroad.

None of this makes a bit of difference to the fact that they are viewed as gyopo and they are are referred to as gyopo.

Nothing learned about them save that they aren't of Korean descent will change that. They are gyopo.

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

And you were right and they were wrong, congratulations.

Or maybe it depends on the school and the job. Maybe everyone doesn't think the whole world has the exact same experience as they do.

Which only goes to show you don't understand what the word means. Gyopo does not mean Korean-American like we think of it in English.

Koreans think they are part of this racially pure bloodline and that all members of this bloodline are extended family.

Koreans (almost) never say 'My house', 'My husband' or 'My country' etc

They say 'Our house', 'Our husband', 'Our country'.

When you talk to an old person you call them 'Grandfather' or 'Grandmother'. When you talk about your mother or your friends mother, you call her 'Our mother'. Same goes for 'Our brother', 'Our sister'.

When my wife introduces me to people she refers to me as '우리 남평' (Our husband) not as '제 남평' (My husband).

Oh.My.God. I KNOW THIS. I know it doesn't mean Korean-American. I know gyopos can be Canadian or French or IRISH. I know they think they're racially pure. I'm telling you that I did not see any person of Korean descent being discriminated against financially, or given a heavier workload than a white teacher. There is no point going round and round in circles on this. You're telling me what one Korean told you, I could quote someone here saying the opposite.

No.

So that's as much as the average foreigner or even adoptee needs to know.

Treated or viewed ?

Both. These are not two distinct categories like you seem to think they are. You don't generally see someone as X and then treat them as Y.

Your not understanding me at all.

No, I understand you perfectly. You are not understanding that 1) this is NOT unique to Korea and 2) the point of this thread is not to debate the fine points about how Korean adoptees are viewed by Koreans. I still have no idea how you think you didn't start this entire discussion by responding to a simple, accurate and informative statement by going into enormous detail in an attempt to contradict me. It's like you have no filter for different audiences. If this were one of those threads on Dave's ESL Cafe about racist Koreans, then this level of detail about one specific point might be appropriate. Otherwise, do you not think that stating that adopted Koreans, unlike most foreigners, have a number which entitles them to change jobs and remain in the country is an accurate enough answer to that question?

monosharp

[quote=[Deleted User];67120727]
Oh.My.God. I KNOW THIS. [/quote]

No you don't. You just proved you don't by comparing it to how Mexicans view Mexican-Americans.

I know it doesn't mean Korean-American. I know gyopos can be Canadian or French or IRISH.

Not my point. At its most basic a Gyopo means a Korean person who doesn't have citizenship of South (or North) Korea.

The political identifier your talking about is completely irrelevant. Gyopo is not a political term.

I know they think they're racially pure. I'm telling you that I did not see any person of Korean descent being discriminated against financially, or given a heavier workload than a white teacher.

How long were you here ? How many places did you work ?

There is no point going round and round in circles on this. You're telling me what one Korean told you, I could quote someone here saying the opposite.

You could quote a Korean citizen saying the opposite ? Fire ahead so, show them this thread. I'd like the reply in Korean.

한국어로 해주세요.

Both. These are not two distinct categories like you seem to think they are.

Yes they are.

You don't generally see someone as X and then treat them as Y.

A gyopo who speaks Korean will be treated very differently to a gyopo who doesn't. But they are both viewed as gyopos, not as Americans/Canadians etc.

1) this is NOT unique to Korea and

Maybe not unique to here but its vastly different from the European or American concepts.

Otherwise, do you not think that stating that adopted Koreans, unlike most foreigners, have a number which entitles them to change jobs and remain in the country is an accurate enough answer to that question?

Yes but thats not what you said. You said they had the 'same' numbers/documents as Koreans. Which is not accurate.

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

No you don't. You just proved you don't by comparing it to how Mexicans view Mexican-Americans.

So you have a thorough understanding of Mexico and emigration to the US? You're positive that no other country on the face of the earth has anything at all similar?

Not my point. At its most basic a Gyopo means a Korean person who doesn't have citizenship of South (or North) Korea.

The political identifier your talking about is completely irrelevant. Gyopo is not a political term.

You're still not getting it, are you? I honestly think if I said the sky was blue, you'd contradict me. Rather than saying 'yeah, that's basically it', you pick on the one tiny thing that isn't even relevant to anyone reading this and jump on it.

How long were you here ? How many places did you work ?

I spent several periods there. I'm not commenting on where I worked on here.

You could quote a Korean citizen saying the opposite ? Fire ahead so, show them this thread. I'd like the reply in Korean.

한국어로 해주세요.

I can quote any number of gyopos saying the opposite. Since they live their lives as Korean adoptees, I'm sure they'd know a bit better about how it feels to be them, but since you know everything about every situation in the world, there's little point in me quoting anything.

A gyopo who speaks Korean will be treated very differently to a gyopo who doesn't. But they are both viewed as gyopos, not as Americans/Canadians etc.

:rolleyes:

Maybe not unique to here but its vastly different from the European or American concepts.

I wouldn't say vastly. But this isn't a black and white issue like you seem to think it is.

Yes but thats not what you said. You said they had the 'same' numbers/documents as Koreans. Which is not accurate.

But was it completely obvious what I meant by that or not? Can you not see that the point of my post kind of overshadows the largely irrelevant (for the average reader here) detail that it's not the EXACT SAME number that Koreans have? The point was, that number means they can work anywhere they like, as Koreans can. The number given to your average white Irish teacher does not mean they can work anywhere they like and therefore they have a considerable number of constraints that ethnic Koreans don't have. Was the pedantic discussion really necessary?

monosharp

[quote=[Deleted User];67122062]So you have a thorough understanding of Mexico and emigration to the US?[/quote]

Nope I don't. But unless they have the Korean cultural ideals of collectiveness, of racial ties that has seemingly escaped me and my mexican friends then no, they are nothing alike.

You're positive that no other country on the face of the earth has anything at all similar?

No of course not. But I can't name any and I'm pretty certain no European or American country fits.

I can quote any number of gyopos saying the opposite.

I asked for a Korean, not for a gyopo.

But was it completely obvious what I meant by that or not?

LOL yet you ridiculed me for using your instead of you're. Was it not completely obvious what I meant ? :pac:

Anyways, this is off-topic and your are plain wrong and I'm getting tired of it.

Heres an article from the LA times with relevant extracted quotes.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/14/world/la-fg-korea-return14-2010feb14

In South Korea, returnees such as Babe are known as gyopo.

The term connotes "our Koreans who happen to be living overseas in another country," said David Kang, a second-generation Korean American and director of Korean studies at USC.

He emphasized the tribal focus of the word: "It's this very atavistic view of Koreans as our blood overseas, almost."

And just about the employment issue;

Looking Korean has affected her employment opportunities as well.

Many English teaching positions posted on the Internet include "no gyopo" clauses. "They don't fully understand that speaking and appearance are not really related," she said of employers.

Michelle Kim, a New Jersey-raised gyopo, described an interview scenario that has become familiar. "They say, 'Oh, we didn't know you were Korean; we thought you were American,' and I say, 'Well, I am an American.' "

No you are not American. To Koreans, you are a Gyopo. You can have an American flag tattooed on your ass, you can wake up singing the American national Anthem. You can walk around with your American passport in your hand and show it to everyone passing by. You can speak with the thickest texas accent you'd like and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

You are still a gyopo here. You are not American. That is what people view you as, that is what the culture sees you as.

In the English language you may get called American or Korean because there is no English term for gyopo but don't mistake that for how you are viewed by Koreans.

Also you said they got paid the same.

She added that "gyopo only" jobs usually pay less.

So would you like to refute this article and provide me with those quotes from Korean citizens about how they view Americans of Korean descent ?

Nody

Mono and Izzy; the two of you are bickering like two cats over a bowl of cream. For most board readers the definition of a gyopo is honestly irrelevant and I'm sorry to say it over all is really making this thread more difficult to read.

Would both of you mind to return to the subject at hand which is teaching in Asia and not the definition of how to define a gyopo? I personally find the first a lot more interesting then the second...

monosharp

monosharp wrote: »

Nope I don't. But unless they have the Korean cultural ideals of collectiveness, of racial ties that has seemingly escaped me and my mexican friends then no, they are nothing alike.



No of course not. But I can't name any and I'm pretty certain no European or American country fits.

But you can't possibly know. You might have a good knowledge of Korea because you live there, but not of other places. You stated that my comparison of Korea and Mexico made no sense, but who are you to say they CAN'T be compared in some ways?

I asked for a Korean, not for a gyopo.

I don't care what you asked for. This actually shows how much you're missing the point. I couldn't care less what Korean people think of gyopos. I'm focusing on how those gyopos themselves feel and their experiences and view of Korea. I have friends who feel that they are considered foreigners and in some cases, that disappoints them because they thought they'd be welcomed with open arms in their homeland. Sure, perhaps Koreans view them as gyopos, but they FEEL like foreigners because of how they're treated.

LOL yet you ridiculed me for using your instead of you're. Was it not completely obvious what I meant ? :pac:

Of course, but commenting on it was relevant. You're an English teacher and I was asking why you made basic mistakes. Your pointing out that the number for gyopos isn't exactly the same number as for Koreans was completely irrelevant to anyone reading this. It doesn't mean anything. It's just paperwork. If I had been wrong about the fact gyopos have the same rights to work as Koreans do, then THAT might have been relevant.

Also you said they got paid the same.

Anyone I know does get paid the same. I've never met anyone in my life who takes their experience and applies it to everyone else in the world like you do. Sure, some gyopos might get paid less and treated differently. I don't know anyone who has. Can you provide me a link to a study showing the percentage of gyopos who get paid less and work more hours than their white counterparts? Why can't you understand that there is no right and wrong and no one single experience? Perhaps all your gyopo friends get paid less. Perhaps all mine get paid the same. It doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong or vice versa. People naturally assume that what they see is the way it is, but few people are arrogant enough to insist that there can't be any other way. This is just boring and ridiculous now.

I made a basic point that might have been useful for anyone of Korean descent. None of this is relevant for anyone here.