Worst road accident in the history of the state claims 8 in Donegal

K-9

fishfoodie wrote: »

7 of the 8 people in the car were 'ejected' in the cold technical language of the investigators.

I doubt the jaws of life were required.

Actually there seems to be confusion over this. The local reporter in this piece suggests they were all still inside based on the Ambulance personnel and Jim McDaid referred to that earlier in the day describing the difficulty it would have been to get out of the car, in quite graphic terms.

The Garda press conference suggests some may have been outside.

RTÉ.ie Media Player: RTÉ Radio 1

.17hmr

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually AFAIR the stats were posted and they show that Donegal has a disproportionate amount of fatal accidents compared to other rural areas and the country as a whole.


No but unless steps are taken then it's going to happen again. Sadly RIP doesnt cut it as far as the future goes.


When I hear of these things on the radio, unlike some I dont think "Donegal" or any other county, but I do automatically think "rural". 2 o'clock in the morning, small car, young male driver, more than one killed all too sadly seems to be the general run of things. The cars are rarely the "souped up boyracermobiles" either. So the usual kneejerk reaction to them is pretty pointless, though no doubt in the following days.... Statistically they would be better off banning 10 year old peugeots with 1.1 engines than fully kitted out skylines.

Having driven for over 20 years all over the country I have noticed an upswing in the death toll for rural areas. Ive also noticed an upswing in the silly driving late at night. Personally I would not be too happy driving home between 12 and 4 on most rural roads in this country. There is a tendency to drive like a fcukwit out there. There's the same tendency in Cork city or Dublin city etc, but the roads are better, are better lit and there is more of a chance of bumping into cops.

There are like Ciar0468 correctly pointed out more facilities in urban areas and way more ways of getting home after a night out. Hell in most cities you can simply stagger walk home. That's not an option out in the rural areas. So even with a guy who isnt drinking but acting as a taxi for his mates the chances of him being overloaded are high. On a few nights over the years I've been on minibus taxis in the country after a night of skulling ales. In every single case they were overloaded. In one case one of the locals was getting a bit bolshie and the driver must have called the local cops. They pulled us over and didnt even comment about the fact that they damn near needed vaseline and tyre levers to extricate the guy from the back. There were people on top of people. I had a tit in my face for most of the trip. Great as a result of a normal night out, not so good in a taxi. I also saw on a few occasions people piling into ordinary cars. women in the back and front sitting on laps. I've seen this close to dublin in places like kildare and meath too. Now this was around 10 years back so maybe its changed, but even at the time people, local people were reckoning it was only a matter of time before a serious accident would happen.

The other aspect of this people have not mentioned are the weights involved. If there were 8 people in the car, that's a huge amount of wieght. Now they cant have been fat to fit the 8 in, so at a guess we're talking say at a conservative guess 70 Kgs per person. Multiplied by 8. That's 560 kgs. That's just about half the entire weight of my own car. That's over half a metric tonne.

That weight is going to seriously compromise handling and braking. It would have struggled to get up to any speed I would reckon, but once there the driver may have been blissfully unaware by how much and how dangerously the dynamics of his car had changed, especially being a young driver. Add in that he himself would have been crowded in his movements by the bodies in the car and with no drink involved, not even particularly high speed you can see how the accident would have happened.

Its very possible he wasnt speeding at all as far as the road limit was concerned. he might have been doing 60 kph. But with half a metric tonne(at least) extra weight on board any loss of control would be massively accentuated. He could have come around the bend and the car understeered with all the weight more in the middle and back, hitting the woman, with enough kenetic energy to remove her wheel, this would ricochet him back into the road to hit the man traveling behind her. He may have not seen the woman until he was on top of her and could have been on the brakes when he hit the man but the brakes would have been as much use as a chocolate teapot at that stage. A half tonne at even 50kph needs a helluva lot of braking energy and room to stop.

So I agree that conjecture about drink involved or speeding is premature. The chaps biggest mistake is that he had that many people in his car. The thing is IME in many rural areas similar happens every weekend. He may even have been a drunk passenger himslef in his mates "taxi" the previous weekend and it was his turn last night. Until that part of the rural nightife culture is tackled, similar may very well happen again.

This is the first bit off common sense that i have read so far.

Eric Cartman

magicbastarder wrote: »

link?

I work for a newspaper , pics arent online

Also jaws of life theyd be lucky if there was any metal to grip left

Sam Kade

Ciar0468 wrote: »

Sorry If what i said was not totally clear. I am trying to say on that point that there are many factors relating to road accidents, I am saying that late night ones are usually attributed to young drivers who have been drinking/clubbing. These attitudes however are learned from the older generation, when it was the 'norm' to drink and drive.

I am also saying that as far as offenders of road laws and safe driving (which has been pointed out here) and policing of these laws, a lot of this can be attributed to older drivers. I have never been in an accident, but have missed a few because of (they have all been older drivers over 30 maybe 40) who dont kow the simple rules of the road. A woman (grey haired so probably over 50) nearly drove into me yesterday at a junction where she was at a stop line, i had right of way, she didit know a stop line actually meant stop (its penalisable by a penalty point not to stop at one)and started souting at me for not stopping.

I am not saying that young or old are to blame, I am saying that everyone on the road who breaks a law is to blame, that the stipulation that its just young drivers is not true. The assumtions made here are that the drivers in the passat are to blame. Who is sure of that? this appears to be a three car colision, none of us know who is at fault. Road safety is also not just about lives lost, every minor or majour colission is a road safety problem.

Something I have noticed about letterkenny is that people are very courious on the roads here and let you out of junctions or into lanes. Its not the same in westmeath, Thank You Donegal drivers as its actually a pleasure to dive here.

I am a very considerative and carefull driver but the bad driving in this county really gets me worked up. A large percentage of drivers on our roads may never of taken a proper driving test, never mind a written one. Our entire licensing and policing system for driving needs a complete overhaul.

What a load of nonsense. She is saying that if some young person drives after drink that they learned it from an older person :rolleyes: She also has a big problem with older drivers, typical know it all young driver :rolleyes: She says she isn't blaming older or younger drivers yet she keeps harping on about older drivers.

salonfire

emma82 wrote: »

I'm from Buncrana and the road (which alot of you speculators have NEVER driven on) which this collision happened on is treacherous! Its full of bends and sudden turns and even locals are weary of it. There is no way it should be a 80kph road!

Ugghh, stop blaming the roads!! There are thousands of km of similar roads, and thousands of journeys made safely on these types of rural roads every year, because of due care and diligence of the drivers.

It is up to the person behind the wheel to adapt their driving to suit the road conditions and if a person cannot grab that basic concept, then they should not be on the road till they do.

Whatever is the cause of this accident, if people start blaming the road, then that just shifts the responsbility/blame from the actual reason.

sonic.trip

robbie_998 wrote: »

how the feck can ya fit 8 grown lads into a 5 seater car ?

sounds like a joy ride was going about.

This is why insurance cost a fecking bomb... cos of idiots like these running a muck :mad:

poor guy in the corolla.

thinking the exact same thing all day. still trying to get my head around 8 men in a passat :eek:

terrible tragedy, I'm sure the answers will come if the driver survives.

totally agree with what Slunk said too:

I think they should show whats left of the passat too and maybe it might get the point across to some people.

edit: seen pic, should be blown up and put on tele in the not so ditant future

vectra

K-9 wrote: »

I'll try and get the piece on the website.

Looking at the pic of the Passat do you still think they were going slow..?

K-9

vectra wrote: »

Looking at the pic of the Passat do you still think they were going slow..?

Well seeing as I never suggested that in the first place.............Don't know were you got that idea from.

You suggested they wouldn't have given a hoot about the Megane if they hadn't hit the Corolla, as if it was 2 separate incidents.

The Guards as quoted in the Breaking news article seem content that it was one event, so they never had a chance to do anything about the Megane in the first place.

FarmerGreen

Pointless horrific destruction.
Let them rest.

vectra

K-9 wrote: »

Well seeing as I never suggested that in the first place.............Don't know were you got that idea from.

You suggested they wouldn't have given a hoot about the Megane if they hadn't hit the Corolla, as if it was 2 separate incidents.

The Guards as quoted in the Breaking news article seem content that it was one event, so they never had a chance to do anything about the Megane in the first place.

IIRC you did say something about them slowing down?

IIRC I did say something about a "Few" hundred meters being enough distance to slow enough so as not to do as much destruction as they did do??

AlekSmart

Taking part in the recent Irish Mini Owners Club Mizen to Malin run one I was particularly struck by the sheer amount of "Doughnut Marks" to be found on isolated stretches of Donegal roads.

Far more than I came across in any of the other counties we passed through,virtually any stretch of road wide enough had signs of recent Doughnut activity.

Who is subsidising this type of mad stuff amongst young drivers ?

The tyre life alone would be halved simply by the amount of rubber left at the doughnut sites,and that does`nt take any added stresses or wear to suspension or steering components.

This thread,and the vehemence of some posters,is surely good enough reason for the Garda Forensic Test results to be made fully public.

Just as with TV programmes such as Air Crash Investigation,we need to know and understand the factors which caused this carnage,whether they be human,behavioural,mechanical.

Knowledge is power and in this case it might just be lifesaving power if the authorities begin to recognize the scale of this problem .

K-9

vectra wrote: »

IIRC you did say something about them slowing down?

IIRC I did say something about a "Few" hundred meters being enough distance to slow enough so as not to do as much destruction as they did do??

Definitely not. All I was posting was to clarify from the Garda statements that they didn't view it as a hit and run, nor indeed drink related. After all, the Guards have investigated.

Speed may well be a factor plus the excess amount of passengers, but then again I'm assuming! Which was what I was correcting.

ferrete

THE DRIVER WAS NOT DRINKING OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AN AS FOR 8 MEN IN A PASSAT ITS EASILY DONE OK S GET OVER IT AN THE DRIVER DESERVES TO BE LEFT ALONE ALSO A HE WILL HAVE ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH AND THERE WAS NO HIT AND RUN IT WAS ALL ONE INNOCEDENT. AN IT WAS NOT THAT NARROW OF A ROAD.. NOW LET THESE PEOPLE REST IN PEACE

robbie_998

ferrete wrote: »

AN AS FOR 8 MEN IN A PASSAT ITS EASILY DONE OK S GET OVER IT

:pac:

Kazuma

Rest in peace? I seriously doubt that, wherever they may be (if anywhere), the unfortunate casualties in this are going to be bothered very much by the contents of a thread on boards.ie.
Looking forward to finding out exactly what caused this accident.

brandon_flowers

AlekSmart wrote: »

Taking part in the recent Irish Mini Owners Club Mizen to Malin run one I was particularly struck by the sheer amount of "Doughnut Marks" to be found on isolated stretches of Donegal roads.

Far more than I came across in any of the other counties we passed through,virtually any stretch of road wide enough had signs of recent Doughnut activity.

Who is subsidising this type of mad stuff amongst young drivers ?

The tyre life alone would be halved simply by the amount of rubber left at the doughnut sites,and that does`nt take any added stresses or wear to suspension or steering components.

This thread,and the vehemence of some posters,is surely good enough reason for the Garda Forensic Test results to be made fully public.

Just as with TV programmes such as Air Crash Investigation,we need to know and understand the factors which caused this carnage,whether they be human,behavioural,mechanical.

Knowledge is power and in this case it might just be lifesaving power if the authorities begin to recognize the scale of this problem .

I think the amount of doughnut marks may be contributed to the Donegal International Rally (sadly a life was also lost at it too). Kerry roads are the same for a month after the Rally of the Lakes and then you get slightly less doughnut marks for the rest of the year.

It is plain to see that there is a problem in Donegal with young drivers but it isn't just Donegal. Kerry, West Cork, Clare and most other isolated areas have the same problem. One maybe two garda covering 30-40 sq km on a week night. That is probably 100km of road if not more. The gardai have no chance in stopping this. Education starts at home.

magicbastarder

the gardai seem to have settled on the hypothesis that the passat hitting the two cars were all part of the same event:

Traffic corps officers believe the black northern-registered Passat collided with the front wing and wheel of the Donegal-registered white Megane before the driver lost control and smashed into the red Corolla, which was also Donegal-registered.

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/grieving-donegal-families-plan-eight-funerals-after-crash-465241.html

irish1967

Does the fact that the vw was northern reg mean it was uninsured and untaxed?
It was obviously an import as is fairly common in border areas?

SV

ferrete wrote: »

THE DRIVER WAS NOT DRINKING OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AN AS FOR 8 MEN IN A PASSAT ITS EASILY DONE OK S GET OVER IT AN THE DRIVER DESERVES TO BE LEFT ALONE ALSO A HE WILL HAVE ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH AND THERE WAS NO HIT AND RUN IT WAS ALL ONE INNOCEDENT. AN IT WAS NOT THAT NARROW OF A ROAD.. NOW LET THESE PEOPLE REST IN PEACE

seamus

It's a weird one alright, though perhaps the Garda/media figures of "200 yards" are what throw it all off.

Let's say the distance between the two collisions was 200m (which is a little shorter than 200y). If we estimate (cynically) that the Passat was travelling at 130km/h (80mph) before the first collision, then we could realistically say that he would lose (at least) 10km/h in the first collision, meaning that he's now travelling at 120km/h, and is 200m away from the second collision.

That's about 7 seconds. Count it in your head. It's a long time. However, that also presumes a dead straight course, and no attempt to stop on the part of the passat driver. If the passat had lost control as the Gardai say, then it would have been a struggle to keep it in any way on a straight course, due to the additional weight in the vehicle.
The most likely thing to happen would have been for the car to glance to the left, the driver would correct by turning to the right, and the car would likely skid and roll.
However, he's a young man, his reactions are sharp and given the power of the vehicle and the yellow reg, he's no doubt familiar with pulling doughnuts and drifting in car parks late at night. So he continually corrects as the car fishtails left and right.

It's what happened next that's the mystery. Did he attempt to stop the car? Did he actually stop dead on the wrong side of the road, just as the corolla came around the corner (no doubt doing at least 100km/h)?

It's all speculation, but 200 yards is not a small distance. Given the condition of the road and the fact that he couldn't have been travelling in a straight line after the initial collision, the car should have been well able to stop within the distance allowed. However if he was travelling at speed, 200 yards isn't nearly enough distance to make a judgement that he had decided to drive off. It could easily have taken him 150/160 yards to gain control of the vehicle and bring it to a stop. And if the media/garda distance estimates are wrong, then there may only be 130 yards between collisions.

So basically, not nearly enough information here for idle speculation to make a call either way.

As said previously, the Gardai are more careful nowadays in what they tell the media, so I would be inclined to trust the experts at the scene on this one when they say that he simply lost control after the initial crash and drove into the path of the corolla.

peasant

seamus wrote: »

It's a weird one alright, though perhaps the Garda/media figures of "200 yards" are what throw it all off.

You're forgetting that the megane was also moving.
In the accident it was only swiped, but not stopped, so it probably carried on for quite a distance on its own momentum in its original direction and finally came to a halt a good bit further on from the point of impact ...which shortens the distance for the second collission

magicbastarder

it's impossible to tell how the first collision might have damaged the roadworthiness of a dangerously overloaded car, or how the driver reacted to the first collision.

thirtythirty

What is all the confusion about?

The passat driver was f/uckng about and it resulted in this mess. Simple as.

EAFC_rdfl

seamus wrote: »

It's a weird one alright, though perhaps the Garda/media figures of "200 yards" are what throw it all off.

Let's say the distance between the two collisions was 200m (which is a little shorter than 200y). If we estimate (cynically) that the Passat was travelling at 130km/h (80mph) before the first collision, then we could realistically say that he would lose (at least) 10km/h in the first collision, meaning that he's now travelling at 120km/h, and is 200m away from the second collision.

That's about 7 seconds. Count it in your head. It's a long time. However, that also presumes a dead straight course, and no attempt to stop on the part of the passat driver. If the passat had lost control as the Gardai say, then it would have been a struggle to keep it in any way on a straight course, due to the additional weight in the vehicle.
The most likely thing to happen would have been for the car to glance to the left, the driver would correct by turning to the right, and the car would likely skid and roll.
However, he's a young man, his reactions are sharp and given the power of the vehicle and the yellow reg, he's no doubt familiar with pulling doughnuts and drifting in car parks late at night. So he continually corrects as the car fishtails left and right.

It's what happened next that's the mystery. Did he attempt to stop the car? Did he actually stop dead on the wrong side of the road, just as the corolla came around the corner (no doubt doing at least 100km/h)?

It's all speculation, but 200 yards is not a small distance. Given the condition of the road and the fact that he couldn't have been travelling in a straight line after the initial collision, the car should have been well able to stop within the distance allowed. However if he was travelling at speed, 200 yards isn't nearly enough distance to make a judgement that he had decided to drive off. It could easily have taken him 150/160 yards to gain control of the vehicle and bring it to a stop. And if the media/garda distance estimates are wrong, then there may only be 130 yards between collisions.

So basically, not nearly enough information here for idle speculation to make a call either way.

As said previously, the Gardai are more careful nowadays in what they tell the media, so I would be inclined to trust the experts at the scene on this one when they say that he simply lost control after the initial crash and drove into the path of the corolla.

Is that not what you have just done up to the highlighted text in your post? How can you say that 'no doubt' he is out pulling doughnuts at night - just because he is a young man from donegal driving a northern reg car is it? good man, your right thats the way we all are indeed.

Wibbs

If he was doing 80 mph. Which I have my doubts about as he was on a twisty road with half a tonne extra weight on board. The car is going to be very mushy in response and he would have felt it long before he got to that corner. With the mass shifted to the rear in a front wheel drive car, his steering is going to be lighter and more prone to understeer. So chances are he was probably going slower. 200 yards apart might be where the cars ended up stopping. Plus the first car he hit would have continued on for a bit even with a busted wheel.

I hadn't considered the car rolling, but if they're saying some had been found outside the car... Jesus that's horrific. Ive been surprised in the past at how easily a car can roll and how little forward speed is required. The first impact which looks to be a result of understeering into the oncoming lane was enough to rip off the wheel of the womans car, could well have rolled the car into the second. with the shifting half tonne in the car that pendulum effect would be very much more marked.

The other thing to consider seamus is this 7 seconds. That may have been his speed over 200 yards, but the other car was traveling in the opposite direction and depending on what speed he was doing the closing speed would have been much much less. If they were both doing 80kph, that's 160kph relative to each other.

Danbo!

spottyelephant wrote: »

What is all the confusion about?

The passat driver was f/uckng about and it resulted in this mess. Simple as.

Great, thread can be closed.

seamus wrote: »

It's a weird one alright, though perhaps the Garda/media figures of "200 yards" are what throw it all off.

Was thinking about this myself, and thought it may be as you described it, or else after the sideswipe, a lot of panic ensued from the 8 as to whether to stop or not and the driver was distracted. By the sounds of it it was only a matter of seconds between the two.

Looking at the image on breaking news it appears to be a saloon passat. Crazy. Five in the back and three in the front?

Mr. Presentable

Belfast Telegraph has specific details of the accident, including details of the car involved, a Volkswagen Passat TDI Sport. It does not make pleasant reading.

Wibbs

I'd also agree with EAFC_rdfl. He may well have not been one of the boy racer brigade at all. Just a young inexperienced driver with an overloaded car. Ive been driving 20+ years and TBH I doubt I could control a car loaded like that. I'm pretty sure I couldnt after the first impact. Yes of course I wouldnt overload it in the first place, but if I was 20 again, in a rural area where this is common and accepted by my peers? I dunno, it could well have been me TBH.

Gary ITR

Guys I know it's a big ask but can we keep emotion out of this thread and stick to the available facts.

I'm going to ask people to read their posts back before hitting 'submit' and if you see a problem with a post, report it, do not attack the poster or you will be banned

Thanks

K-9

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's impossible to tell how the first collision might have damaged the roadworthiness of a dangerously overloaded car, or how the driver reacted to the first collision.

Or if injuries were sustained from the first crash causing the driver to panic more, with 7 passengers in the car.