Worst road accident in the history of the state claims 8 in Donegal

pitkan

My deepest sympathy to all the relatives and friends of all the deceased,

Just a few weeks ago a mention was made in the media that road deaths were down this year compared to this time last year. The weekends tragedy has altered this comparison now. It upsets me to read statistics like these as though they were some quota that should not be met. We should be adopting the target set by one of the countries of Scandinavia (I think it was Sweden) which was for zero road fatalities ,all ably backed up by the means to achieve this ,instead of listening to the same waffle from those who are in a position to make these changes.
We`re long past the waffle stage. Let`s see action.

r3nu4l

nipplenuts wrote: »

Belfast Telegraph has specific details of the accident, including details of the car involved, a Volkswagen Passat TDI Sport. It does not make pleasant reading.

The car was a 2.0L (140PS) TDI Passat according to cartell. That assumes that the engine hasn't been remapped.

Shocking stuff and as many other posters in this thread have said, most of us have done similarly stupid things in the past so we should probably get off our high horses

RIP to ALL who died and condolences to all the families involved.

On another note, years ago when I was 18 I was visiting relatives in Mayo. A local lad there invited me to the local nightclub and we hitched in. The guy who brought us in was someone I didn't know but my friend did, so I trusted him. We were lucky to get there alive. He drove at over 120 mph on stretches of road where the most he should have been doing was about 50 mph. He overtook on bends and didn't slow down coming to blind bends (:mad:). To top it all I later learned that he only had sight in one eye, meaning that his perception of depth was severely impaired. Okay the car wasn't overcrowded but had I died that night I'd hate to think that people were assuming I was out for a joyride and I deserved it. We all make mistakes, some of us are luckier than others.

mickydoomsux

pitkan wrote: »

Let`s see action.

Like what?

A lot of road safety is personal responsibility, which these young lads showed none of. What 'action' by the Garda, RSA or Dept of Transport would have stopped them making an idiotic decision?

pitkan

My deepest sympathy to all the relatives and friends of all the deceased,

Just a few weeks ago a mention was made in the media that road deaths were down this year compared to this time last year. The weekends tragedy has altered this comparison now. It upsets me to read statistics like these as though they were some quota that should not be met. We should be adopting the target set by one of the countries of Scandinavia (I think it was Sweden) which was for zero road fatalities ,all ably backed up by the means to achieve this ,instead of listening to the same waffle from those who are in a position to make these changes.
We`re long past the waffle stage. Let`s see action.

KamiKazi

Mr Lambert also asked people not to rush to judgement about the cause of the crash.

They push out such a huge campaign against young male drivers and when eight are involved in an accident they come out and say this?

LOL @ the irony TBH.

Drake66

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I thought the police dont use accident any more as it implies that nobody was at fault, dont they use traffic incident now? Slightly off topic, but I do agree until the accident investigation is complete we wont know what actually happened.

Officially police must use the word collision/incident so that blame can be apportioned in the event of negligence. I think however we can still call it an accident, considering that few if any people go out on the road with the intention of causing death/serious injury.

changes

The picture of the car in the belfast telegraph is shocking, how the driver survived is amazing. The car is a complete wreak.

Run_to_da_hills

Drake66 wrote: »

Officially police must use the word collision/incident so that blame can be apportioned in the event of negligence. I think however we can still call it an accident, considering that few if any people go out on the road with the intention of causing death/serious injury.

I always believed the abbreviated term RTA (Road traffic accident) is used right across the emergency services including Gardai.

BlaasForRafa

seamus wrote: »

Hard to say. Death by dangerous driving needs to show that the person who caused the accident was driving in a manner which presented danger to the public.

Driving a heavily loaded vehicle or with too many passengers is not in itself necessarily dangerous - if you drive with due regard for the extra weight in the vehicle and your ability to see around you isn't impaired, then I wouldn't say its inherently dangerous.
However, driving in a manner which did not take account of the additional weight, or carrying a load above the vehicle's rated/recommended maximum could be construed as dangerous driving.

The passat was going around a fairly significant looking bend at the time, I wonder did the extra (unsecured) weight in the car cause it to understeer a bit more than the driver was used to and it sideswiped the megane then (hard enough to knock off part of the wheelarch and the wheel) and then he lost control, skidded and rolled, thus sealing the fate of the passengers.

I'd imagine that the testimony of the megane driver will be important, she may be able to say if the passat was being driven erratically. Of course it may be that she only saw the passat at the last moment and didn't have a chance to evade. I'd say the corolla driver had absolutely no chance at all, the poor chap.

BlaasForRafa

changes wrote: »

The picture of the car in the belfast telegraph is shocking, how the driver survived is amazing. The car is a complete wreak.

The fire service may have used the "jaws of life" to cut off the roof to more easily access those remaining in the car but yes otherwise it was very badly wrecked.

bad2dabone

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The passat was going around a fairly significant looking bend at the time, I wonder did the extra (unsecured) weight in the car cause it to understeer a bit more than the driver was used to and it sideswiped the megane then (hard enough to knock off part of the wheelarch and the wheel) and then he lost control, skidded and rolled, thus sealing the fate of the passengers.

According to the Belfast Telegraph article the Passat was sideways when it hit the megane.

Steering a car with an extra couple of hundred kilos on it at high speed would be almost impossible to control - if indeed that's what happened.

A horrific loss of life in such a stupid stupid way.

Anan1

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Pretty much all modern saloons are setup to understeer as its easier to handle than oversteer. With that much weight in the car combined with a high speed entry into a corner the nose of the car would have just washed out and most likely into the other lane.

On the other hand, couldn't carrying a lot of speed into a bend and then braking hard with so much weight in the rear cause the back end to lighten up and then snap out?

Gary ITR

I just heard on the radio that the driver is a lorry driver. If this is the case he really should have known better, he would have at least been well aware of the difference weight makes to braking

woodseb

peasant wrote: »

That actually isn't proven yet.
It is theoretically possible that their car was stationary when the Toyota hit it. It is theoretically possible that the Toyota driver was speeding, unable to react and ploughed into them at full force.
Theoretically.

sorry, it is not theoretically possible for their car to be stationary and hit by the toyota and end up 200yrds down the road in the opposite direction

edit : apols, confusing the toyota with the first impact

silkcutmauve

appalling. i am so shocked. this used to be the sort of thing we'd have our stomachs turned when we heard about it in Northern Ireland. So sad.

Terrontress

changes wrote: »

The picture of the car in the belfast telegraph is shocking, how the driver survived is amazing. The car is a complete wreak.

Well, I presume ES personnel would have cut the car open to get access to the injured so it is often not possible to see the true damage caused by the accident.

You'd imagine that the driver's area would have been the least cramped to allow him to control the pedals and steering wheel. This would have meant he benefitted from the safety features alone. I'd imagine though that unsecured adults in the back can't have helped.

Seeing the Telegraph's pictures of the boys who died is heart-breaking though. I can see a lot of myself at that age in each one of them.

NewApproach

The thread title is misleading.

Accidents don't happen by accident.

Anan1

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It really depends if the car has ESP or stability control (which it might as its a VW) it should counter it. It all depends on the steering angle and the road, is the road cambered or its downhill.

If the driver stands on the brake pedal with a load of steering wound in and combine that with the excessive weight of the 6 passengers it could cause some nasty oversteer. That also isnt taking into account the condition of the cars tyres or road surface either.

I do remember reading a statement from VW years ago stating that 60% of fatal road accidents could have be prevented if cars had ESP as standard. It was something very high in anycase, I must see if I can find that article.

I'm almost certain all Passats have ESP, but even ESP has its limits, especially if the back of the car has gone light on the tyres but is still carrying the sideways momentum of five people. I'm only speculating here, mind.

discovery98

Onkle wrote: »

I just heard on the radio that the driver is a lorry driver. If this is the case he really should have known better, he would have at least been well aware of the difference weight makes to braking

If the BT has named the driver correctly, then sounds like this story from 2008 refers to the driver :

http://www.derryjournal.com/inishowen/Lorry-driver-caught-doing-39doughnuts39.4237379.jp?articlepage=1

Mr NoTV

Sadly this happened the same day that they held the rally stages in Sligo. We had a lot of petrol heads hurtling down our single track lane thinking they are invincible.
Now, I'm not suggesting anything like that here - but when the hell will they all learn????????? These lane and roads are not racetracks, cars are not tanks and other people have the right to use the roads just as much as you. It is a privilege to drive a car, not a right.
I feel that the only ones to learn from this dreadful event will be those closely connected to it.

Hotais

discovery98 wrote: »

Sounds like this story from 2008 refers to the driver then:

http://www.derryjournal.com/inishowen/Lorry-driver-caught-doing-39doughnuts39.4237379.jp?articlepage=1

Please don't tell me these 2 people are in any way related..?

Stark

discovery98 wrote: »

Sounds like this story from 2008 refers to the driver then:

http://www.derryjournal.com/inishowen/Lorry-driver-caught-doing-39doughnuts39.4237379.jp?articlepage=1

Had the judge disqualified him like he should have, 8 people might still be alive today. Goes to show the damage bleeding hearts can do.

Slunk

Says in tongihts Evening Herlad that the driver had a previous conviction for dangerous driving and was fined €1000. Also a witness 'had concerns for safety' after they were overtaken by the passat.

Zulu

It's the same person, is it?

Slunk

Havent read the Derry Journal article but it says in the paper he was previously convicted for dangerous driving.

magicbastarder

Zulu wrote: »

It's the same person, is it?

the person mentioned in the above article is liam kelly. the driver of the passat is sean kelly, according to RTE.

keithclancy

Dead because they were unrestrainted and the car was overloaded.

A guy managed to walk away from this:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3105304

Horrible loss of life imo.

Princess Zelda

If it is established that this driver was previously convicted for dangerous driving and then went and put 7 mates in a car that holds 5 and drove, perhaps the judicial system should be reviewed in that the drivers convicted for dangerous driving should be made to attend a driving course with emphasis on driving safely. Or even take them to scenes of road traffic accidents or morgues to show them that actions do have consequences. Something akin to this . I know this article refers to gangs and stopping recruitment of them, but what better way to educate drivers than facing the harsh reality of what their driving may lead to?

mickydoomsux

Princess Zelda wrote: »

If it is established that this driver was previously convicted for dangerous driving and then went and put 7 mates in a car that holds 5 and drove, perhaps the judicial system should be reviewed in that the drivers convicted for dangerous driving should be made to attend a driving course with emphasis on driving safely. Or even take them to scenes of road traffic accidents or morgues to show them that actions do have consequences. Something akin to this . I know this article refers to gangs and stopping recruitment of them, but what better way to educate drivers than facing the harsh reality of what their driving may lead to?

.......And that would have zero effect on someone like that. You can't cure stupid, no matter how hard you try.

seamus

The BT lists him as "Liam Kelly", but RTE and everyone else says he's Sean Kelly.

We know in Ireland that rural areas like to call people one thing on paper and another in person, but I wouldn't be so quick to make a judgement just yet. I deleted a particular vitriolic post of mine just in case