Do you wear a helmet?

monument

Just to make it clear: It's still not Friday yet.

My bookmarks on helmets -- the pro, anti, and ugly on both sides -- can be found here: http://delicious.com/gintyc/helmet?page=1

Lumen

monument wrote: »

Just to make it clear: It's still not Friday yet.

It is in the place where helmets are mandatory.

Stark

nipplenuts wrote: »

I don't see where facetiousness has a place is debate. But to answer your question, no, but then it's unlikely I'll suffer serious long term effects from a stubbed toe.

I've had to be taken to hospital after having my skull cracked by a rock as a kid as I know several other kids have. I'm still here with no long term effects. It's a bit sensationalist to say that the girl who cut her scalp is going to suffer long term brain damage.

Mr. Presentable

Stark wrote: »

It's a bit sensationalist to say that the girl who cut her scalp is going to suffer long term brain damage.

Agreed. It would be if anyone had.

blorg

nipplenuts wrote: »

I have no problem with people choosing not to wear a helmet, but am surprised that there is, albeit low-level, mocking of those who choose to wear one.

As Tiny suggested, I think it is the other way around. There are helmet-wearing people who can't understand why people wouldn't wear one, and brand non-wearers as irresponsible, or immature kids prioritising being "cool" ahead of their own safety.

The people on this thread who are branded as making "anti-helmet" arguments are not arguing against helmets per se but rather arguing that it is a valid personal choice, that the level of risk in cycling is actually quite low, the protection offered by a helmet limited, and those choosing not to wear a helmet are not irresponsible lunatics.

The majority of people making these arguments I know IRL actually do wear a helmet most of the time- as do I. As such it would make no sense that they would be mocking those who chose to wear helmets. What we are against is compulsion, or the idea that you are a lunatic for not wearing on going out for a pint of milk.

DirkVoodoo

Low level mocking? Hardly, just incredulity at people who point out that not wearing a helmet commuting means you are more likely to be killed (I'll point to dublin bikes again!), have little care for your family and friends and are actively encouraging a younger generation to flaunt their own safety.

Let's be realistic about it. I already linked to information about what helmets are designed to do and not what we would like them to do.

It's a bit like smoking, people who don't smoke like to point out how bad it is (although it's been proven, unlike helmets) and "oh, you really shouldn't do it". At the end of the day, as long as they are not blowing it in your face, the person probably knows the dangers but it's their choice. Where is Bill Hicks when you need him?

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

It's a bit like smoking, people who don't smoke like to point out how bad it is (although it's been proven, unlike helmets) and "oh, you really shouldn't do it". At the end of the day, as long as they are not blowing it in your face, the person probably knows the dangers but it's their choice. Where is Bill Hicks when you need him?

He died of cancer. The chain-smoking probably didn't help.

DirkVoodoo

Lumen wrote: »

He died of cancer. The chain-smoking probably didn't help.

I'm aware of the irony, but it was pancreatic cancer so probably the heavy drinking that was more of a factor.

EDIT:

They proved that if you quit smoking, it will prolong your life. What they haven't proved is that a prolonged life is a good thing. I haven't seen the stats on that yet.


I was in a cab in New York. The cab had a sign, "Please do not smoke, Christ is our unseen guest." This guy was reaching. I figure, if He could overcome being nailed to a cross, I don't think a Marlboro Light's gonna faze Him that much.

2ND EDIT: This is more what I was going for, not the actual smoking but the attitude of people who don't smoke towards those who do. Personal choice man!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ySCcnoo3c

Cabaal

RobBaxter wrote: »

It's a great thread I think.

But its been done to death, there's been numerous threads on this subject and this adds nothing new

TinyExplosions

We got a few laughs out of it...

petethedrummer

And a few tears.

andr3w103

helmets are uncool gaaaawd:cool:

petethedrummer

It was the best of times....

TinyExplosions

don't forget the stubbed toe!

uberpixie

I wear a helmet as fully expect at some stage to have slow speed collision with an idiot ipod zombie stepping out in front of me and giving me very little time to avoid hitting them. A helmet may prevent some damage to my head and face. Anything more serious and I expect major ouchies helmet or not.

I honestly couldn't care if people wear a helmet or not.

What I really hate are people who have a helmet, but don't wear it and carry it on their handle bar while they are cycling. WTF?

Wear it or leave it at home.

blorg

uberpixie wrote: »

What I really hate are people who have a helmet, but don't wear it and carry it on their handle bar while they are cycling. WTF?

Like this joker

TinyExplosions

blorg wrote: »

Like this joker

Totally, he's just a weirdo!

tomasrojo

nipplenuts wrote: »

I wear a helmet because I want my child to see good example

I have a four-month old daughter. For the same reasons, I will be switching to defecating in a potty on the ground in the next eighteen months.

killalanerr

jayus this thread gos on a bit
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968991 just to clear up some things from the thread some of you got closed with your bickering

i ware a helmet it does not make me reckless and i dont by any means feel invincible with my magic hat on ,my bike handling skills are quite good barring my last fall i cant remember the last time i fell off

did wearing a helmet save my life,ok a will concede it would be hard to be conclusive
but considering the mechanism of injury with a blow of this force to the back of the head and the risk of the C spine hyperextending i believe my helmet prevented a serious head and neck injury

i advocate the warring of helmets on safety grounds if you dont want to ware one so be it

RobFowl

+1 on what killalanerr said

FTR I strongly believe but of course cannot prove that a helmet saved my life or at least prevented a serious brain injury when I suffered a serious crash in a race.

I don't advocate or support compulsory helmet wearing but do advise everyone to wear one whenever cycling.

tomasrojo

killalanerr wrote: »

jayus this thread gos on a bit

They've a tendency to do that.

killalanerr wrote: »

but considering the mechanism of injury with a blow of this force to the back of the head and the risk of the C spine hyperextending i believe my helmet prevented a serious head and neck injury

Helmets don't prevent neck injuries though. Or spinal injuries (C spine injuries are essentially neck injuries anyway, aren't they?). Or (I'm less certain about this) injuries to the back of the head (they're designed for forward falls). I imagine that they might exacerbate hyperextension of the cervical vertebrae, given that they make the effective diameter of the skull wider, and therefore make the skull a longer lever.

They certainly prevent or ameliorate some injuries attributable to linear forces (gashes, road rash, perhaps mild concussion), and they might exacerbate some injuries attributable to rotational forces (which are generally the ones that are life-changing, due to shearing forces separating layers of tissue in the brain and tearing blood vessels).

Part of the problem I have with people strongly recommending helmet as they're currently designed is that I don't think they're particularly good. Something that prevents rotational acceleration would be much better. Something like the Philips helmet, if it were possible to make it much lighter and smaller.
http://www.phillipshelmets.com/ROTATIONAL_HEAD_INJURY.htm

I also think that if helmets of the current design were very effective at preventing serious brain injury (as opposed to milder forms of head injury), we'd see it in the Australian/New Zealand data following compulsion. It's not there. You can see the effects of breathalysing campaigns, but not the sudden increase in helmet wearing. If they were very effective, those datasets are certainly big enough to show it.

I'm not anti-helmet, but I really like strong evidence for persuading people to change the way they've done something for over a century. I'm just not seeing that strong evidence.

tunney

tomasrojo wrote: »

They've a tendency to do that.

I also think that if helmets of the current design were very effective at preventing serious brain injury (as opposed to milder forms of head injury), we'd see it in the Australian/New Zealand data following compulsion. It's not there. You can see the effects of breathalysing campaigns, but not the sudden increase in helmet wearing. If they were very effective, those datasets are certainly big enough to show it.

If you saw the helmets that people wear to get around the law you may understand why there the data from Oz/Nz doesn't show it. And how importantly how they are worn.

As someone whose life was saved by a helmet I'm definitely in favour of them. The day a helmet kills me I'll change my mind.

tomasrojo

It is true that most people wear helmets incorrectly. Even the strongest proponents of mandatory helmet laws say that, such as Thompson, Rivara and Thompson, who estimated that 90% of cyclists wear helmets incorrectly. From personal observation of cyclists around Ireland, it certainly is very high, the most common fault being dangling straps, I think.

However, even worn correctly, current designs of helmets do nothing to prevent neck injuries, or brain injuries due to rotational acceleration.

ednwireland

well i hit 39mph on wet roads this morning - i'll keep wearing a helmet on the commute

RobFowl

tomasrojo wrote: »

However, even worn correctly, current designs of helmets do nothing to prevent neck injuries, or brain injuries due to rotational acceleration.

Not sure thats entirely true do you have a link?

Anyway rotational acceleration injuries are rare if falls from bikes (which is what helmets are designed to protect from). Motor vehicle accidents are where that becomes an issue and helmets really aren't designed to protect you if you're hit by a car at speed).

Anyway if there were no helmets Tunney and I wouldn't be here annoying you (or else would be learning to walk and talk again so would be posting in After Hours )...

tomasrojo

RobFowl, you and tunney are not annoying me at all!

Rotational acceleration:
The efficacy of bicycle helmets against brain injury, Curnow WJ. 2003. Accident Analysis and Prevention: 2003,35:287–292

I don't think anyone claims that helmets are effective against rotational forces. I've never come across anyone claiming such.

killalanerr

tomasrojo wrote: »

They've a tendency to do that.



Helmets don't prevent neck injuries though. Or spinal injuries (C spine injuries are essentially neck injuries anyway, aren't they?). Or (I'm less certain about this) injuries to the back of the head (they're designed for forward falls). I imagine that they might exacerbate hyperextension of the cervical vertebrae, given that they make the effective diameter of the skull wider, and therefore make the skull a longer lever.

modern helmets worn correctly will offer some C spine protection (this is the v design at the back)

tomasrojo

killalanerr wrote: »

modern helmets worn correctly will offer some C spine protection (this is the v design at the back)

Interesting. Will look into it!

nitrogen

blorg wrote: »

Like this joker

Or this langer?

RobFowl

tomasrojo wrote: »

RobFowl, you and tunney are not annoying me at all!

Rotational acceleration:
The efficacy of bicycle helmets against brain injury, Curnow WJ. 2003. Accident Analysis and Prevention: 2003,35:287–292

I don't think anyone claims that helmets are effective against rotational forces. I've never come across anyone claiming such.

Thanks for that link. I should correct myself and say they are not designed for rotational brain injuries and it seems proven that they do not.

I found this quote from the abstract particularly interesting and must look it up when I get time.

"It is shown that the design of helmets reflects a discredited theory of brain injury."

tomasrojo

On the other hand, their efficacy in diminishing linear acceleration, while modest, is not in contention.

tomasrojo

Avoiding rotational acceleration is also part of how woodpeckers avoid brain damage.

Curnow has a good discussion of it in one of his books, but I can't remember which one.

This isn't as scholarly (misspelling of "shear", for example) but it's interesting:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/whydontwoodpeckersgetbraindamage/

By hammering in a dead straight line woody woodpecker avoids giving himself DAI, further minimising the risk of brain damage.

Bit off-topic, but maybe some of you are interested in zoology.

Beasty

I normally try and steer clear of helmet threads, but as it's Friday, what the hell!

I originally posted these in the Images of Beasty worst injury thread:

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/z...fNCD/preop.jpg
http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/z...NCD/postop.jpg


These injuries arose on my regular commute. I was going fast (getting on for 40 kph), but it's the sort of speed cyclists regularly encounter on downslopes. I was wearing a helmet. I hate to think what I would have looked like if I hadn't been wearing one. The main impact occured above the injuries you can see, just above the top scar on the second picture, but the helmet took the brunt of it.

I am not one for complusion, but I certainly wear a helmet whenever on the bike.

As it was, I was able to do the Tour of Kilkenny a month after the accident. I suspect I would not have been able to if I had not been wearing a helmet on that fateful day

monkeypants

Do helmets used in competition need to be certified each year and examined before races like in motorcycle racing?

Lumen

monkeypants wrote: »

Do helmets used in competition need to be certified each year and examined before races like in motorcycle racing?

No.

Chips Lovell

There is always the early season crashfest. If your helmet survives that, it should be good to go.

RoubX

ReTweeting a comment about Renshaw:

@Doctor_Hutch
Sheesh. Everyone goes on and on about wearing a helmet. Then someone finds a use for one? They don't like that either.#tdf

DirkVoodoo

"This is a bike race, not a gladiator's arena"

austinbyrne21

I'm just after buying this bad boy, http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=48234 so from now on I'll always be wearing a helmet! Hell, it's that cool I may even take to wearing it on nights out. Although in this town it's probably a necessity anyway.;)

rubadub

Leroy42 wrote: »

I cannot understand is why some racing cyclists don't seem to wear one while training.

As far as I'm aware, it is mandatory to wear a helmet while racing, even the sportives such as W200 state it as necessary. That being the case, why would people not train in the equipment they will use for a race. Surely this makes the helmet a factor in the race as the person is not used to wearing one.

Many powerlifters will not train wearing a weightlifting belt, not the exact same but some might find it more beneficial to train differently to the event they will compete in. I know one powerlifter also trains his squat using olympic style squats -which are different to the one they compete in.

Also the cyclists might (like myself) consider wearing a helmet to be dangerous, and so want to be as safe as they can when training and only take the risk when competing since they are obliged to. They might think the risk is not all that great so are still willing to compete.

It would make far more logical & rational sense to me to wear one while out drinking than cycling.

ThisRegard

Cycling through a junction the other day when I spotted a girl coming from my right. What caught my eye was the fact that she was wearing her helmet like a beret, it was sideways on her head. I think her ear was preventing it from sliding off completely.

uberpixie

ThisRegard wrote: »

Cycling through a junction the other day when I spotted a girl coming from my right. What caught my eye was the fact that she was wearing her helmet like a beret, it was sideways on her head. I think her ear was preventing it from sliding off completely.

It was pissing rain one day on the way home and I saw a lady with a rain coat with a very large hood up and a helmet barely balanced on top on the hood!

Think the strap were undone aswell, I remember thinking "why bother?" :pac:.

Still helmet worn berret style well beats it :eek:

Doctor Bob

ThisRegard wrote: »

What caught my eye was the fact that she was wearing her helmet like a beret

If she was wearing regular clothes, that's called Cycle Chic.

If she was wearing lycra, it's Euro.

Lumen

ThisRegard wrote: »

Cycling through a junction the other day when I spotted a girl coming from my right. What caught my eye was the fact that she was wearing her helmet like a beret

DirkVoodoo

It never ceases to amaze me how you find all this stuff. Is that a functional helmet or just a design?

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how you find all this stuff. Is that a functional helmet or just a design?

Young artist exhibits "radiovka" cycling helmets

DirkVoodoo

In the end, what self-respecting cyclists would really want to admit to flipping over the handlebars with nothing on their heads but a plastic beret?

I'd take the beret over my mushroom shaped Giro any day.

Bluefoam

Mr. Presentable

tomasrojo wrote: »

I have a four-month old daughter. For the same reasons, I will be switching to defecating in a potty on the ground in the next eighteen months.

I suspect you'll get more in by putting it on your head.

cyclopath2001

monkeypants wrote: »

Do helmets used in competition need to be certified each year and examined before races like in motorcycle racing?

Lots of parents insist on their children wearing helmets but never bother to check if they're the correct fit and properly strapped on.