French ban the burqa

democracy is an ideal it dosnt exist anywhere full stop . i wouldnt hide behind this as the reason i am glad its banned i am glad its banned as it represents a culture and an ideology which thinks i am second rate and not worthy of an education or rights and if i cheat on my husband i am am worthy of being buried up to my neck and stones thrown at my head till i am dead. again i would argue you can only apply the notion of democracy to those nations where it applies it dosnt in muslim countries and again you are naive to believe this ideal exist anywhere that is transparency for you . oh and one more thing let them burn our flags in the streets surely that would be democractic nah . socrates was right democracy only exists in states less than 30,000 people .

Jarndyce

Abrasax wrote: »

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/02/04/france.burqa.ban/index.html

It's called 'brainwashing'.

Abrasax wrote: »

And secular governments never use the same tool to further their political ends? Mmm.

Ah, I see. Two wrongs make a right. Air-tight argument there, buddy.

K-9

Terry wrote: »

One of the main tenets of Islam is to convert the non-believers.
Talk honestly to any Muslim and they will tell you that they aim to convert the entire world to Islam.
Every one of the 40 or 50 practicing Muslims I have spoken over the years have made this claim. They say that within 100 years that all of Europe will be under Sharia law.
I'm not under any illusion that they are deluded, nor do I think that they pose any threat. All I'm saying is that this is what they believe. I am not claiming that all Muslims are like this. It's just that the majority (about 90%) of the Muslims I have spoken to want Sharia law and the entire world to be Islamic. Maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people.

Every religion believes they are the one true religion, hell, look at the RC Church here and the missionaries sent abroad converting the unwashed. On the face of it the RC Church isn't as hard line, but sure look at their preachings in Africa on contraception.

Now, getting back to the topic, do you think banning the burqa in Ireland would make these Muslims you know more hard line? Feel targeted?

Abrasax

Jarndyce wrote: »

It's called 'brainwashing'.

Could be. There's certainly a lot of it around.

Ah, I see. Two wrongs make a right. Air-tight argument there, buddy.

Wha?

lmaopml

Jarndyce wrote: »

As Terry previously stated, this is the democratic will of the people. Your claim that it is hypocritical is entirely misguided.

You say that the women now won't be able to leave their homes? That may be true in some cases. So the alternative, in your opinion, is to pander to an oppressive culture? Bear in mind that oppression of women's rights is not the only reason for the enactment of this legislation.

It's the 'democratic' will of the people? I sure as hell hope not, cause I thought more of the 'people'...

The establishment can make excuses, but the 'people'..well that's just sad!

pander to an oppressive culture...

Right so, how many women are going to be 'saved'? and how many actually 'wear' the full Burka in order for prohibition to exist, and the need for this law?...and how many have robbed banks etc. wearing the Burka?

I really think this is just filthy politics, call my a cynic, but it sounds like political 'pandering' as opposed to democracy at work...

....or representation of the 'people', or concern for 'women'...I have more faith in french people than this bull**** legislation.

It's ridiculous to suggest it's anything other than an entire political body hypnotising the 'people' into secumbing to xenophobia in the ridiculous..

Like I said, there are many ways to skin a cat, passing 'laws' on what women can't wear stinks of hypocrisy...

Jarndyce

Abrasax wrote: »

Could be. There's certainly a lot of it around

I'm pleased that you accept that.

Abrasax wrote: »

Wha?

What?

lmaopml

lmaopml wrote: »

It's the 'democratic' will of the people? I sure as hell hope not, cause I thought more of the 'people'...

The establishment can make excuses, but the 'people'..well that's just sad!

pander to an oppressive culture...

Right so, how many women are going to be 'saved'? and how many actually 'wear' the full Burka in order for prohibition to exist, and the need for this law?...and how many have robbed banks etc. wearing the Burka?

I really think this is just filthy politics, call my a cynic, but it sounds like political 'pandering' as opposed to democracy at work...

....or representation of the 'people', or concern for 'women'...I have more faith in french people than this bull**** legislation.

It's ridiculous to suggest it's anything other than an entire political body hypnotising the 'people' into secumbing to xenophobia in the ridiculous..

Like I said, there are many ways to skin a cat, passing 'laws' on what women can't wear stinks of hypocrisy...

umm did you read my post you clinging to this notion of democracy is just as lame as clinging to any other belief . Nothing is that black or white

Abrasax

Jarndyce wrote: »

I'm pleased that you accept that.

Yes, I accept that people of all nations, religions, creeds etc can be brainwashed esp. as to the actions of those not of their tribe.

What?

As in what are you talking about?

I made a point about Western governments using fear as a tool to manipulate populations as much as different religious groups have done in times past.

You replied 'two wrongs don't make a right'. What are you trying to say?

Edit: in fact I should be agreeing with you. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Well said.

K-9

Terry wrote: »

One of the funniest things is that quite a lot of the Irish people agianst this ruling just dislike anything French because of the result of a Soccer match. Those people need to grow the **** up.

LOL

Another one to ad to the do gooder, PC brigade, pinko shirt, liberal, commie loving students.

lmaopml

[quote=[Deleted User];66947318]umm did you read my post you clinging to this notion of democracy is just as lame as clinging to any other belief . Nothing is that black or white[/QUOTE]

Right so! You don't believe in democracy but 'oppression'! Well that coincides perfectly with your opinions thus far...

..ever consider that?

If you can't see how silly it is to argue about passing laws about, 'what women are not allowed to wear, to 'free' women..'...and can't see the taint of hypocrisy in this view...

Then yes, you're totally inline with the establishment...but not 'all' the 'people'....!

Jarndyce

Abrasax wrote: »

As in what are you talking about?

I made a point about Western governments using fear as a tool to manipulate populations as much as religions have done in times past.

You said 'two wrongs don't make a right'. What are you trying to say?

Oh, I see.

I said "two wrongs make a right", not "two wrongs don't make a right"".

You referred to the fact that secular governments scaremonger to gain the support of the people in furtherance of their agendas. You said this in response to a point which said that major religions do this.

Your point is either a) utterly irrelevant, or b) attempting to justify theocratic scaremongering on the basis that Western secular states act in a similar manner.

bleg

I'm in favour of the ban. The Islamification of Europe is a growing concern for me and I welcome all efforts to prevent it.

Jarndyce

Abrasax wrote: »

Edit: in fact I should be agreeing with you. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Well said.

Well read.

EDIT: I suspect you will miss the sarcasm in this reply, so I'll point it out for you. You seem to have difficulty reading so I suspect that discerning connotations might a step too far.

lmaopml

K-9 wrote: »

LOL

Another one to ad to the do gooder, PC brigade, pinko shirt, liberal, commie loving students.

lol, and hey what's that all about? nothing wrong with pink shirts ok!!! rc?

lmaopml

lmaopml wrote: »

Right so! You don't believe in democracy but 'oppression'! Well that coincides perfectly with your opinions thus far...

..ever consider that?

If you can't see how silly it is to argue about passing laws about, 'what women are not allowed to wear, to 'free' women..'...and can't see the taint of hypocrisy in this view...

Then yes, you're totally inline with the establishment...but not 'all' the 'people'....!

ha ha seriously i do believe in democracy but it dosnt exist or work ! establishment ? nah mate i am with the side which will protect my daughters against the nihilism of this kind of muslim oppression and anything else which protects their and my rights as free woman .

lmaopml

What's up with the French, surely there is a better way Jarndyce? No? It's not like the 'law' of the land is restricted to legislating on women's clothing, as a combat to terrorism? Is it not even a little obvious that this is not really doing a whole lot of 'protection'?? but moreso inflaming and patronising..segregating...

No?

lmaopml

[quote=[Deleted User];66947593]ha ha seriously i do believe in democracy but it dosnt exist or work ! establishment ? nah mate i am with the side which will protect my daughters against the nihilism of this kind of muslim oppression and anything else which protects their and my rights as free woman .[/QUOTE]

There could be nihilism living next door to you wearing a batman suit and smoking a herbal remedy...and they don't have to wear a burka...

That's the truth!

Cheap Thrills!

lmaopml wrote: »

It's the 'democratic' will of the people? I sure as hell hope not, cause I thought more of the 'people'...

The establishment can make excuses, but the 'people'..well that's just sad!

pander to an oppressive culture...

Right so, how many women are going to be 'saved'? and how many actually 'wear' the full Burka in order for prohibition to exist, and the need for this law?...and how many have robbed banks etc. wearing the Burka?

I really think this is just filthy politics, call my a cynic, but it sounds like political 'pandering' as opposed to democracy at work...

....or representation of the 'people', or concern for 'women'...I have more faith in french people than this bull**** legislation.

It's ridiculous to suggest it's anything other than an entire political body hypnotising the 'people' into secumbing to xenophobia in the ridiculous..

Like I said, there are many ways to skin a cat, passing 'laws' on what women can't wear stinks of hypocrisy...

lol You're kinda missing the point. You seem to assume those of us who despise the Burqa and the particular flavour of extremist, fundamentalist Islam it comes with of being interested in 'saving' the female victims of it and wanting integration of these people any more.

I'll speak for myself. I don't imagine this measure will achieve any of that and what's more I've gone beyond caring. Three or four generations of these people now in some European countries and still no integreation. It's not the hosts faults now is it? It's a decision made by these extremist groups. They resent the new Secular countries they have come to. They hold the people within with contempt. An uneasy hostility exists no matter what measures the host extends to them.

I wouldn't shed a tear if they all turned around and headed off. You can only throw gifts before the ungrateful for so long before you realise you are fooling yourself. The French don't want these people. That's the bald truth of it and this law is the first after 30-40 years of the French enduring a surly and ignorant guest in their country. The extremists have no one to blame but themselves. THey can cry wolf all they like, I'm sick of hearing it.

To think this has been arrived at lightly is false. There is massive support for it. Yes, there may be undesirable Nationalistic elements jumping for joy but that can't be helped.

These extremists have reaped what they sowed. Sure the bleeding heart liberals will defend their 'religious freedom' to the last but there's one born every minute. Give them 30-40 years with this sh!t on their doorsteps and see what tune they're singing to then. :rolleyes:

K-9

lmaopml wrote: »

lol, and hey what's that all about? nothing wrong with pink shirts ok!!! rc?

Roman Catholic Church.

lmaopml

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

lol You're kinda missing the point. You seem to assume those of us who despise the Burqa and the particular flavour of extremist, fundamentalist Islam it comes with of being interested in 'saving' the female victims of it and wanting integration of these people any more.

I'll speak for myself. I don't imagine this measure will achieve any of that and what's more I've gone beyond caring. Three or four generations of these people now in some European countries and still no integreation. It's not the hosts faults now is it? It's a decision made by these extremist groups. They resent the new Secular countries they have come to. They hold the people within with contempt. An uneasy hostility exists no matter what measures the host extends to them.

I wouldn't shed a tear if they all turned around and headed off. You can only throw gifts before the ungrateful for so long before you realise you are fooling yourself. The French don't want these people. That's the bald truth of it and this law is the first after 30-40 years of the French enduring a surly and ignorant guest in their country. The extremists have no one to blame but themselves. THey can cry wolf all they like, I'm sick of hearing it.

To think this has been arrived at lightly is false. There is massive support for it. Yes, there may be undesirable Nationalistic elements jumping for joy but that can't be helped.

These extremists have reaped what they sowed. Sure the bleeding heart liberals will defend their 'religious freedom' to the last but there's one born every minute. Give them 30-40 years with this sh!t on their doorsteps and see what tune they're singing to then. :rolleyes:

..the ugly truth.


We know all about it you see, and speak from historical experience, and that it doesn't work; it's called prohibition. It creates your own cane...

..and it's a lame way of dealing with it, rather than a smart way of integration through talking..

Four generations....pff...try adding on a few more for tolerance...

Abrasax

Jarndyce wrote: »

You referred to the fact that secular governments scaremonger to gain the support of the people in furtherance of their agendas. You said this in response to a point which said that major religions do this.

Your point is either a) utterly irrelevant, or b) attempting to justify theocratic scaremongering on the basis that Western secular states act in a similar manner.

I'll try to restrain myself this time and not respond to you in the manner in which you respond to other posters here, which is fairly disgusting, tbh.

Terry posted that the Muslims rule the women by fear. I countered that governments do the same, a subject of the BBC documentary 'The Power of Nightmares', about the fear engendered in Western societies, by governments, with regard to Muslims.

When I post about a Muslim woman who chooses to wear the burqa, you immediately post 'She is brainwashed.', narrow-mindedly or conveniently ignoring that there may be any another possibility.

When Terry talks about the support for the ban within France, I think back to the BBC documentary and I think to myself 'They're brainwashed, or at least a good proportion of them are, with regard to their general attitudes to Muslims'. Why would people fear a piece of clothing?

Do you recognise that there may be some relevance now?

And this should clear up the 'two wrongs make a right' business for you. It was never an argument of mine, so could never be 'air tight' or otherwise, negating your further posts and insults. But don't let that stop you.


And the irony of your choice of signature, given your stance and attitudes, is laughable.

lmaopml

lmaopml wrote: »

There could be nihilism living next door to you wearing a batman suit and smoking a herbal remedy...and they don't have to wear a burka...

That's the truth!

could be but i like batman at least catwoman gets to wear what she wants hahah

deravarra

[quote=[Deleted User];66950459]could be but i like batman at least catwoman gets to wear what she wants hahah[/QUOTE]

but not the woman who wishes to wear a burka? sheesh!

yeah definitely not the woman who wants to wear a burka hate all that represents i think i have made my views perfectly clear sheesh

moonpurple

we need to ban the burqa

make it eu wide

how many fugitives from the courts are hiding behind burqas:pac:

just did a search there three woman in this year have died from wearing burgas on escalators due to them being caught and the woman being strangled just sayin ...

wes

[quote=[Deleted User];66951549]just did a search there three woman in this year have died from wearing burgas on escalators due to them being caught and the woman being strangled just sayin ...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and if we took a look at those killed in road accidents, they would easily dwarf that number. Of course, no one would actually suggest we ban car's due to accidents......

yeah but there are rules which are heavily enforced to make driving safer . anyways that was just an observation rather than a core argument spot the difference ? or take the time to read my other posts

wes

[quote=[Deleted User];66952148]yeah but there are rules which are heavily enforced to make driving safer . anyways that was just an observation rather than a core argument spot the difference ? or take the time to read my other posts[/QUOTE]

I never said it was a core arguement, and well aware it was an observation, but considering the context of the thread my reply isn't really that out there.

Also, your exactly right, we do have sensible rules to help prevent road accidents, and I am sure we can come up with sensible rules regarding the Burqa e.g. allowing Banks to id people etc. No reason to stop making sensible rules now.

Nodin

Terry wrote: »

The majority of French people do not want the Burkha allowed in public. France is a democratic country.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "Democracy"?
In short, it's majority rule.
Allowing a miniscule amount of people to undermine the laws of the land is completely undemocratic and makes a complete mockery of Western society.
.

You're confusing direct democracy with a republic. The former is rule by mob with no protection for minorities.

Terry wrote: »

Let's be honest here. Not one Muslim woman wears that out of choice, unless they fear being raped because they have shown a bit of skin..

Forgetting entirely about culture, habit/tradition......

jaryndyce wrote:

The passages I quoted are most unambiguous. ..

Theres no such thing when it comes to religion, unfortunately.

jaryndyce wrote:

You should try it sometime instead of your hitherto puerile contributions.
..

Theres that anger again.

jaryndyce wrote:

You're right, it is a mad idea. Even more mad is your idea that you have a clue what you are talking about. Educate yourself and try to quit being such a petulant little annoyance..

...and again. The fact is that your assertion of there being no sects within Islam according to the Koran is undermined by the fact that there are a number of sects within Islam (all of whom read the Koran). This in turn should (but probably won't) cause you to question your rather unfounded certianity.

jaryndyce wrote:

No, not at all. However, I do sometimes get frustrated when dealing with imbeciles. ..

Rarrrrrrrr.....

jaryndyce wrote:

As Terry previously stated, this is the democratic will of the people...

..the problem with which you should have spotted, given that you've one of the founding fathers as your sig.

jaryndyce wrote:

Oh, I see.

I said "two wrongs make a right", not "two wrongs don't make a right"".

You referred to the fact that secular governments scaremonger to gain the support of the people in furtherance of their agendas. You said this in response to a point which said that major religions do this.

Your point is either a) utterly irrelevant, or b) attempting to justify theocratic scaremongering on the basis that Western secular states act in a similar manner. ...

Or hes stating that this is just a ploy to distract from the various other problems the Sarkozy admin is experiencing....

Jarndyce

Abrasax wrote: »

When I post about a Muslim woman who chooses to wear the burqa, you immediately post 'She is brainwashed.', narrow-mindedly or conveniently ignoring that there may be any another possibility.

There might be, however, in reality, an area that do-gooders do not like to embrace, the overwhelming probability is that she will wear it because she will, at a minimum, face ostracization in her Muslim Community if she does not. For example, just look at Sudan where a female journalist faces flogging for 'dressing indecently' i.e. wearing trousers. http://www.hilath.com/?p=1597

While France is obviously quite different from Sudan, there is a common element in Islam that requires conformity or else one faces ostracization. In the article you posted, the woman said she wants to wear it. How can you be so blind as to take that at face value? The issue and culture goes immeasurably deeper than that. The woman has faced a lifetime of conditioning which has led her to that deluded position.

Abrasax wrote: »

When Terry talks about the support for the ban within France, I think back to the BBC documentary and I think to myself 'They're brainwashed, or at least a good proportion of them are, with regard to their general attitudes to Muslims'. Why would people fear a piece of clothing?

Do you recognise that there may be some relevance now?

I see the point you're making, but I believe it is deeply flawed. You are suggesting that the majority of Europe who have an anti-Islamic sentiment in regard to burqa are brainwashed in a similar way to the Muslim woman in the article you linked?? That's a very poor comparison to attempt to draw. You will find that many Westerners who castigate such extremist culture are not doing so because they are brainwashed, but rather because they are viewing the situation from the perspective of free, liberal, democratic society. I do not believe that it is 'fear', as you suggest.

Let me give the example of the French teacher who demanded to be allowed to teach while wearing a full burqa (i.e. only a bare eye slit). She was dismissed for refusing to teach without it. I might add that she lost her equality/discrimination claim. Parents and French society in general are saying 'we've had enough'. Their culture is being bullied by a pernicious practice that is shielded in the unassailable guise of 'religion'. Chinks of realisation are beginning to show, and not a moment too soon.

Abrasax wrote: »

And the irony of your choice of signature, given your stance and attitudes, is laughable.

I fail to see how it is in any way applicable to the present discussion or my contributions thereto? But if you find it laughable, laugh away. It's a further reflection of your intelligence, or rather your lack thereof.

wes

wes wrote: »

I never said it was a core arguement, and well aware it was an observation, but considering the context of the thread my reply isn't really that out there.

Also, your exactly right, we do have sensible rules to help prevent road accidents, and I am sure we can come up with sensible rules regarding the Burqa e.g. allowing Banks to id people etc. No reason to stop making sensible rules now.

and who is going to pay for that ? yeah lets bend over a little more muslims want your own schools yeah sure work away want mosques again no problem yadda yadda burn our flags sure thats a great fair system . want your woman to wear tents which are symbolic of their status as second rate people sure go ahead ?? nah hope they ban it everywhere .

Nodin

Jarndyce wrote: »

While France is obviously quite different from Sudan, there is a common element in Islam that requires conformity or else one faces ostracization. In the article you posted, the woman said she wants to wear it.

Of course now France has passed a law forcing women to conform by taking off the offending items, it has the 'moral high ground'.

irishconvert

Jarndyce wrote: »

There might be, however, in reality, an area that do-gooders do not like to embrace, the overwhelming probability is that she will wear it because she will, at a minimum, face ostracization in her Muslim Community if she does not. For example, just look at Sudan where a female journalist faces flogging for 'dressing indecently' i.e. wearing trousers. http://www.hilath.com/?p=1597

While France is obviously quite different from Sudan, there is a common element in Islam that requires conformity or else one faces ostracization.

That is not true at all. I will give you a real world example. I was sitting in the Imam's office in the Central Mosque in London. A woman wearing a niqab came in to speak to the Imam. The first thing he said to her was to ask her why she was wearing a Niqab. He told her to take it off and that she should not wear one, it is not required.

Jarndyce wrote: »

In the article you posted, the woman said she wants to wear it. How can you be so blind as to take that at face value? The issue and culture goes immeasurably deeper than that. The woman has faced a lifetime of conditioning which has led her to that deluded position.

I don't think you have any real world experience of Muslims to be honest. All you know is what you read in your anti-Muslim websites. I would love to take you to the mosque to meet some real Muslim women. It would definitely be an education for you.

wes

[quote=[Deleted User];66952724]and who is going to pay for that ?
[/QUOTE]

Asking someone to take off a Burqa in a bank (much like helmets) will cost nothing at all to anyone. Seriously, you are talking utter nonsense.

[quote=[Deleted User];66952724]
yeah lets bend over a little more muslims want your own schools yeah sure work away want mosques again no problem yadda yadda burn our flags sure thats a great fair system . want your woman to wear tents which are symbolic of their status as second rate people sure go ahead ?? nah hope they ban it everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Not even going to try and decipher that mess of sentences. I know my grammar may be really bad sometimes, but I can't make head nor tails of the above. At most I can decipher that you have gone off on one hell of a non-sequitor, that make very little sense.

Nodin

[quote=[Deleted User];66952724]and who is going to pay for that ? yeah lets bend over a little more muslims want your own schools yeah sure work away .[/QUOTE]

Protestants, catholics, orthodox and Jews have their own schools. Do you have a problem with that?

[quote=[Deleted User];66952724]
want mosques again no problem yadda yadda
.[/QUOTE]

As above.....

[quote=[Deleted User];66952724]
burn our flags sure thats a great fair system .
.[/QUOTE]

What are "our flags"?

Morlar

If you look at this the other way for a second.

If the burka was ALREADY illegal across Europe and this discussion was about introducing it - what would be the main selling points behind the argument for it's introduction ?

Nodin

Morlar wrote: »

If you look at this the other way for a second.

If the burka was ALREADY illegal across Europe and this discussion was about introducing it - what would be the main selling points behind the argument for it's introduction ?

'why the hell not?' was the first thing that crossed my mind.

Morlar

Nodin wrote: »

'why the hell not?' was the first thing that crossed my mind.

Ok so we have the 'No reason' reason - anymore ?

ok fair enough dont want to follow it here is my core argument in plain English.

1. the Burga is designed to cover the womans body from men . This essentially is saying that a womans worth is solely based on her form.
2. The Burga is used as a tool to keep woman in there place, they are not allowed in most Muslim countries not to wear it .
3. it represents quite clearly that woman in that culture are seen as secound rate and should be treated as such.

why should it be banned in europe?
1. for the most part woman are treated equally to have this as a complete opposite is bizarre.
2. intergration in any country a person choses to live in is fundamentally important to all races living together in one country in harmony . Muslims are free to live in a country which upholds the belief that the burga should be worn and all that represents.

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

Protestants, catholics, orthodox and Jews have their own schools. Do you have a problem with that?
yes



What are "our flags"?

several european flags have be burned in the streets by muslims google it

Nodin

[quote=[Deleted User];66953102]several european flags have be burned in the streets by muslims google it[/QUOTE]

So because a group of some religion burn somebody elses flag, you reckon thats a good reason to pass laws against another group, nominally of the same faith....

Do you have a problem with other religions schools and churches, as I asked above....?

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

So because a group of some religion burn somebody elses flag, you reckon thats a good reason to pass laws against another group, nominally of the same faith....

I think that this represents that our tolerance can lead to complete disrespect

Do you have a problem with other religions schools and churches, as I asked above....?

yes i do . i think that religion and education should be separate . As for churches i believe people should be allowed to practice their faith as long as it dose not completely contradict the values of the country they wish to practice in.

Jarndyce

Nodin wrote: »

...and again. The fact is that your assertion of there being no sects within Islam according to the Koran is undermined by the fact that there are a number of sects within Islam (all of whom read the Koran). This in turn should (but probably won't) cause you to question your rather unfounded certianity

You are vexing me now, perhaps intentionally. I never said that there are no sects within Islam. I did however say that the Qur'an prohibits sects and indeed I cited the relevant passage. It was never my assertion that there are no sects within Islam, thus it cannot be undermined 'by the fact that there are a number of sects within Islam'.

You have resorted to putting words in my mouth in a desperate to attempt form some semblance of a point.

The rest of your points do not deserve a response, as indeed you yourself do not. I reply only to the aforequoted point because it misrepresents my previous posts.

I have already received a warning for my previous replies to you; in particular, regarding your reading (in)ability. Only a few posts later and here you are misrepresenting my points. I believe that this should constitute an infraction and should also warrant a warning of some kind.

Nodin

Jarndyce wrote: »

You are vexing me now, perhaps intentionally. I never said that there are no sects within Islam. I did however say that the Qur'an prohibits sects and indeed I cited the relevant passage. It was never my assertion that there are no sects within Islam, thus it cannot be undermined 'by the fact that there are a number of sects within Islam'. .

...according to you, thats what the Koran says. Yet sects exist. This would suggest (again) your reading is either incorrect, naive or not taking into account a number of factors.

Jarndyce wrote: »

I have already received a warning for my previous replies to you;.

I've made no complaint about you so thats really nothing to do with me. Using it as an excuse to avoid the holes in your own plot doesn't say much about your belief in the strength of your own case.

irishconvert

[quote=[Deleted User];66953085]
2. The Burga is used as a tool to keep woman in there place, they are not allowed in most Muslim countries not to wear it .[/QUOTE]
Please list the Muslim countries where women have to wear burqa. In Saudi Arabia, although it is not law, there is great cultural pressure on women to wear it. But as for most Muslim countries women do not have to wear it. Where are you getting your information from?

Jarndyce

Nodin wrote: »

...according to you, thats what the Koran says. Yet sects exist. This would suggest (again) your reading is either incorrect, naive or not taking into account a number of factors.

You are attempting to discredit my reading ability? I have cited the relevant passages for you which unequivocally state that sects are prohibited. They do, of course, exist and there are various reasons for that, but I believe that we have strayed off-topic far enough.

You say "according to you, that's what the Koran says"??? I have QUOTED the relevant passages - subjectiveness does not come into it!

"Yet sects exist. This would suggest (again) your reading is either incorrect, naive or not taking into account a number of factors." So, because a situation exists that is contrary to what is unequivocally stated in the Qur'an, I must be reading it incorrectly?? That is the finest example of a non-sequitur that I have seen in some time.

I think that perhaps you don't even understand what you are saying. If you do, that is much worse, and in that case I pity you.

Nodin wrote: »

I've made no complaint about you so thats really nothing to do with me. Using it as an excuse to avoid the holes in your own plot doesn't say much about your belief in the strength of your own case.

I never suggested that you did, nor did I suggest that it has anything to do with you. Using it to avoid holes in my own plot?? What the hell are you talking about?? You attempt to create 'holes in my plot' by flagrantly misrepresenting my argument in your replies.

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

Please list the Muslim countries where women have to wear burqa. In Saudi Arabia, although it is not law, there is great cultural pressure on women to wear it. But as for most Muslim countries women do not have to wear it. Where are you getting your information from?

Saudi women are required both by law and tradition to wear the niqāb in cities such as Mecca, Medina and Taif. In other cities such as Dammam and Abha, as well as southern cities, women are not required to wear it by law, yet most women observe niqāb and it remains de facto obligatory. Women may be harassed by the religious police if they do not cover their faces. Jeddah, as the most liberal city of Saudi Arabia, is an exception.
In 2008, the religious authority in Mecca, Mohammad Habadan called on women to wear veils that reveals only one eye, so that women would not be encouraged to use eye makeup.[40]

irishconvert

[quote=[Deleted User];66954059]Saudi women are required both by law and tradition to wear the niqāb in cities such as Mecca, Medina and Taif. In other cities such as Dammam and Abha, as well as southern cities, women are not required to wear it by law, yet most women observe niqāb and it remains de facto obligatory. Women may be harassed by the religious police if they do not cover their faces. Jeddah, as the most liberal city of Saudi Arabia, is an exception.
In 2008, the religious authority in Mecca, Mohammad Habadan called on women to wear veils that reveals only one eye, so that women would not be encouraged to use eye makeup.[40][/QUOTE]

You have not backed up your claim that women in most muslim countries must wear burqa. Will you back it up or withdraw the claim?

BTW my wife never wore burqa in Mecca or Madina. I'd say 80% of women there don't wear it. So I don't think the wikipedia article you quote is accurate. If the law is there is it certainly not enforced.

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

You have not backed up your claim that women in most muslim countries must wear burqa. Will you back it up or withdraw the claim?

That point may be modified or not or it may come down to definition of the word 'must', but either way it's nothing more than a distraction from the core point thread.