Can Liverpool be considered part of the big 4 anymore?

It looks like Mascherano and Gerrard are fishing for other clubs. Benayoun went to Chelsea(lost a great impact player). Torres wants a meeting with the liverpool management to clarify his future. They are not in the champions league this year.

The owners and the fans don't get on. Roy Hodgson is relatively untested at this level of the game. They are in dire straits financially.

I haven't heard any world class players been linked with them this summer whereas I have for Arsenal/Man Utd/Chelsea.

Can Liverpool turn it around?

Fromvert

There's nothing to worry about. Torres, Mascherano and Gerrard out, Scharner, Whelan and Beattie in and we'll be flying.

Helix

they need to work their way back in there thats for sure

theres no big 4 at the moment, its a big 3 then city who have potenital to take liverpools spot, then spurs based on the fact that theyre in the champions league, then the rest of the chasing pack - villa, liverpool and everton

curry-muff

It'll certainly be a struggle for them, but Ill give it until next year to make my judgement as im sure they will put up a fight.

5starpool

Certainly in terms of interest, perhaps not in terms of expectations. By the end of August we should know more around that.

Bodhisopha

If they hold onto their players they'll be in better nick than United for next season. That's if they can get a full season out of Torres.

Gillington

I think at this stage it's only history that is helping them scrape onto their Big 4 status

Mr.Nice Guy

With Spurs muscling their way into the frame and Man City making an even more determined push to get in the Champons League I think the days of the top 4 are over. With the exception of Chelsea and United I think any of four or 5 teams could take the final two spots.

How will Spurs follow on from last season? Will City start off strongly? Will Villa be thereabouts again? Will Arsenal keep Fabregas? Will Hodgson keep the big names and get Liverpool back to winning ways? Can Everton with a fit squad make a challenge like in previous seasons?

I would be astonished if Chelsea or United finished outside the 4 CL places but I can conceive of any of the teams above doing so. That's why, at this moment at least, I wouldn't look at things in the old top 4 mindset any more.

magma69

There is no way Liverpool will get back into 4th without new owners. It's as simple as that really. Man City will have a monstrous squad of beasts by next season. Spurs will have improved also. Europa League qualification is a realistic outcome for next season imo.

Helix

Bodhisopha wrote: »

If they hold onto their players they'll be in better nick than United for next season

lol wut?

Xavi6

Bodhisopha wrote: »

If they hold onto their players they'll be in better nick than United for next season. That's if they can get a full season out of Torres.

If they hold on to their players they will have pretty much the same squad as last year minus Benayoun and they didn't even come close to United.

United are streets ahead and will continue to be this season.

Turtyturd

They can probably lay as much claim to being part of it as Arsenal can. The season before last Arsenal struggled to hold their spot in the "big 4" when thye lost a major player through injury.

Once Fabregas joins Barcelona, Arsenal will find themselves struggling again. Same goes for United if anything happens with Rooney. The dynamic of the premier league is changing and the traditional "big 4" are not dominant and only Chelsea and City have the money to keep themselves ahead of the pack.

Holsten

Big 4? It's been the big 2 for how long now....

jank

Definitely not. They finished 6th last season and will be doing well to hold on to their main 3 out-field players. Mach looks to be gone but I think Torres will stay while Gerrard is 50:50. Thing is though Torres is injured yet again and Ngog leading the line they are not going to be fighting for a CL spot anytime soon.
Everyone knows of their financial situation and it doesn't look its going to improve anytime soon.
Roy is a very good manager though better than some people suggest so I actually think they will start the season well but over the course of the season they will finish outside the top 4 and with the off field situation likely to come to a head its going to be a long time before they are back where they were.

Spurs and Man City are the up and coming teams at the moment. It will be hard to shift them.

Bodhisopha

Xavi6 wrote: »

If they hold on to their players they will have pretty much the same squad as last year minus Benayoun and they didn't even come close to United.

United are streets ahead and will continue to be this season.

And they had pretty much the same squad the season before. Which season was a more accurate representation of the talent at the club, iyho?

If they can hold onto their stars and Hodgson can get the best out of their underperformers, like he did with Duff and Zamora, then Liverpool are a match for United, but not Chelsea.

Xavi6

Bodhisopha wrote: »

And they had pretty much the same squad the season before. Which season was a more accurate representation of the talent at the club, iyho?

If they can hold onto their stars and Hodgson can get the best out of their underperformers, like he did with Duff and Zamora, then Liverpool are a match for United, but not Chelsea.

You're only as good as your last season and I think even the most blinkered Liverpool fan will admit that they aren't moving forward at the moment.

United are a model of consistency.

Helix

jank wrote: »

They finished 6th last season

no they didnt:p

Bodhisopha

Xavi6 wrote: »

You're only as good as your last season and I think even the most blinkered Liverpool fan will admit that they aren't moving forward at the moment.

United are a model of consistency.

I'm not concerned with clichés. I look at the talent pool and i make the judgement that with the right management and a little luck in terms of injuries they can be a match for United.

I certainly wouldn't write them off like many appear to be doing.

eagle eye

Big Four = Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool.

Always has been, always will be. In ten years time I expect that it will be a quiz question if two of them fall away from the top of the table for a while.

I'm sure they will come up for a new name if there are different teams in those top four positions for a couple of years.

Xavi6

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I'm not concerned with clichés. I look at the talent pool and i make the judgement that with the right management and a little luck in terms of injuries they can be a match for United.

I certainly wouldn't write them off like many appear to be doing.

The current pool of players is not near as good as United's though. They have zero strength in depth.

everdead.ie

eagle eye wrote: »

Big Four = Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool.

Always has been, always will be. In ten years time I expect that it will be a quiz question if two of them fall away from the top of the table for a while.

I'm sure they will come up for a new name if there are different teams in those top four positions for a couple of years.

The Big four is a relatively new thing Liverpool and United where always the biggest(best supported) clubs in England, Arsenal where established regularily challanging for trophy's but it was only recently that the "big four" came to mean those clubs in the ninety's there was Blackburn and Newcastle, 80's all Liverpool and Everton really, then there are Huge clubs like Forest and Leeds and Wolves who aren't even considered big anymore only in History terms really the top clubs change this could be the begining of a new era in the top tier of English football or it could simply be a blip, I would imagine we won't be able to tell untill at least close of the transfer window.

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

Big Four = Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool.

Always has been, always will be.

always is a big word

chelsea werent even a big team when the premiership (aka football in some peoples opinions) started in 92

The Volt

Everton will finish ahead of Liverpool next season, I'm confident of it. Liverpool though are still a bigger draw than Everton, Spurs, Villa and City so in that sense yes I consider them one of the big four.

timetogetfit

Bodhisopha wrote: »

If they hold onto their players they'll be in better nick than United for next season. That's if they can get a full season out of Torres.

eagle eye

Helix wrote: »

always is a big word

chelsea werent even a big team when the premiership (aka football in some peoples opinions) started in 92

The big 4 only came into existence when the Premier League got 4 Champions league spots and the same teams were there every year it seemed. The term is only about 2/3 years old but it refers to an 8 year stretch where only on one occasion were those four teams were not the top four at the end of the season.

This is only the second time in 9 seasons that this has happened.

Helix

the big 4 was around long before the premiership

eagle eye

Helix wrote: »

the big 4 was around long before the premiership

Well I never heard it mentioned prior to the three in a row of Champion's League finals.

Columbia

eagle eye wrote: »

Big Four = Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool.

Always has been, always will be. In ten years time I expect that it will be a quiz question if two of them fall away from the top of the table for a while.

I'm sure they will come up for a new name if there are different teams in those top four positions for a couple of years.

Please tell me you're joking. Sky Sports didn't invent football you know, FFS.

eagle eye

Columbia wrote: »

Please tell me you're joking. Sky Sports didn't invent football you know, FFS.

I've been around a long time and I don't ever remember the term 'big four' ever being used in the league. Sky Sports didn't exist when I started watching football. I remember when the new name for the league cup was the milk cup.

Is that ok for ya?

K-9

Helix wrote: »

the big 4 was around long before the premiership

Don't think so really. Mid 80's, Liverpool and Everton, I don't think anybody consistently challenged them, same with Pool and Arsenal in the late 80's.

Maybe Liverpool, Forest and Villa in the late 70's, early 80's. Ipswich were there but would hardly have been considered a big 4 side. Not sure how consistent United and Arsenal were then. Chelsea, barring 1 season in the 80's, weren't at the races in that period. Spurs probably would have been bigger.

K-9

Anyway, this season, if Pool can avoid the litany of injuries that happened pre Xmas and keep Torres fit for 25 League games, they have a chance.

I don't think Torres or Gerrard will go at the minute. Masch seems far more probable.

Obviously a lot will depend on his replacement. Jovanovic can play up front, though we'll have to see how good he is. Looked handy at the WC. Acquilani, who the medical team seem happy with :pac: looks decent.

It isn't all doom and gloom, yet.

Mr Alan

part of the big 4? yes. part of the top 4? no.

Handsome Bob

Bodhisopha wrote: »

If they hold onto their players they'll be in better nick than United for next season. That's if they can get a full season out of Torres.

Bodhisopha wrote: »

And they had pretty much the same squad the season before. Which season was a more accurate representation of the talent at the club, iyho?

If they can hold onto their stars and Hodgson can get the best out of their underperformers, like he did with Duff and Zamora, then Liverpool are a match for United, but not Chelsea.

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I'm not concerned with clichés. I look at the talent pool and i make the judgement that with the right management and a little luck in terms of injuries they can be a match for United.

I certainly wouldn't write them off like many appear to be doing.

I agree in some respects, I think it's incredibly short sighted and cliched to use the old "only as good as your last season" mantra, especially if we keep the team in tact for the most part.

But that's a big if. If we can keep Torres and Gerrard (not worried about Masch going). If Torres and Gerrard can stay fit. If Johnson and Aquilani can stay fit. If Hodgson can be successful in the transfer market this Summer. If the owners stay completely out of the spotlight. Then yeah, we could give a decent fist of maintaining our place among the "big 4".

That's a lot of ifs, and unfortunately I don't think lady luck will be shining on us, especially in regards to injuries and the transfer market.

flahavaj

Al has it spot on, are still one of the "Big 4" but their place in the top 4 next season is under major threat.

I still respect Liverpool, for all thats gone on there the last few years, their first eleven is still capable of beating anyone on their day. The major difference between them and the likes of Villa, Everton, City (last season at least, Tevez excluded) and even Spurs is that Liverpool have genuine world class players who can win a game on their own in Torres and Gerrard (despite his general sh*ttiness lately.) I think Torres and Gerrard will be there next season,.

I can't understand Liverpool fans saying they wouldn't mind the loss of Mascherano though, he's a monster of a player who never lets ye down in the bigger games especially. Theres very few world class defensive midfielders out there of his class and the likes of Toure who are in his class have already moved this Summer.

As Xavi said the strength in depth is very poor at the moment and they really feel injuries badly. Losing Benayoun was a big blow, in that they lost one of the few players they have that possesses genuine guile in the final third of the pitch. Ye will also miss his versatility in being able to play across the pitch and hes another lad who can always be relied upon for an important goal.

The major flaws in the squad I see at the moment are;
-Lack of pace at centre back and on the wings
-Lack of creativity in the final third
-Lack of adequate cover for Torres, who's injury proneness seems to be getting worse and worse and has to be a major concern not only for ye but for prospective buyers.
-The need for an experienced left back to allow Insua develop in his own time
-Lack of decent cover in the mioddle of the field for the two "defensive" midfielders
-No one to play left wing
-No proper cover for the fullbacks

Leiva

Points & League position is temporary.

History & Legacy is permanent .

So to answer your question ; YES always a top 4 team !

~Rebel~

mixednuts wrote: »

Points & League position is temporary.

History & Legacy is permanent .

So to answer your question ; YES always a top 4 team !

This only true to a degree, and only if Pool do manage to get back into the top 4 within a short number of years. Otherwise you really have to include the likes of Forest and Leads...which obviously would make no sense. There's a balance between legacy, recent history and current performance imo.

The Muppet

With the money being invested elsewhere I think Liverpool are going to find it extreamly difficult to get back into the top 4.

Leiva

~Rebel~ wrote: »

This only true to a degree, and only if Pool do manage to get back into the top 4 within a short number of years. Otherwise you really have to include the likes of Forest and Leads...which obviously would make no sense. There's a balance between legacy, recent history and current performance imo.

True Rebel ...but lets not forget we are LIVERPOOL FC .

I know it sounds so simple but the legacy behind that name is priceless , something no Chelsea , Man City can buy .

If we get a Abhu Dabi then we have both Legacy & Cash .

Oh wake up mixednuts !

Quazzie

Mr Alan wrote: »

part of the big 4? yes. part of the top 4? no.

~Rebel~

The Muppet wrote: »

With the money being invested elsewhere I think Liverpool are going to find it extreamly difficult to get back into the top 4.

True. Its vital to build on whats there rather then having a teardown imo.

As was said, we need to improve our first team, both also increase strength in depth. That said, the signings are there if they went for them (and were allowed to spend the money from Masch inevitably leaving).

Jovanovic, Cole and Scharner as free's (Cole as first choice when fit, Jovanovic as proper valid backup to Torres, as well as potentially regular starter on the left, Scharner as very much squad player, backup for nigh on every position in the team)
Defour and Hazard as squad members for the first short while and likely starters by midway in the season, again giving more options and quite decent strength in depth.
Just need 1 or 2 LB's then depending on Insua leaving or not, and what level Mavinga and Robinson are considered to be at.

The options are there, if the money for sales is available to at least be in with a very very good shout of top 4. Lets not forget the gap last year was miniscule and Liverpool really really underperformed.

ilovelamp2000

How do people define what is a "big" club ?

mike65

The Big 4 concept is as old as the 4 CL places as someone mentioned, Forest were never a truely big club but I can understand why they are thought to have been. Clough got them so far above their natual station in life for so long they nearly started to look a big club. Nottingham is a modest provincial city and the clubs "real" leavel is Championship.

In terms of History even Liverpools is a bit spotty, winning since the early days but only in the Shankley era did they start to built something genuinely sustained until the early 90s since when the clubs fortunes ebbed away. Winning cups and shaping well at times but falling short in the league. Chelsea were playing their trade in the 2nd tier
as recently as 1988/1989 and only started to challange for the league from 1997/1998.
Manchester Utd of course went nearly 3 decades without a title and breifly played in the 2nd division.

Liverpool are still bigger than Chelsea and Arsenal on a global basis though they can't stay out of the CL for long if thats to remain the case.

Boskowski

Rosco1982 wrote: »

How do people define what is a "big" club ?

slingerz

Should Liverpool get new owners that are not completely inept, then there's no reason why Liverpool wouldnt be a top side.

IMO they are not that many players away from the top sides.

folan

i cant see why not, but if the finish below 4th again, questions will have to be asked!

The same questions as are being asked now, but more angrily.

Patsy fyre

Liverpool need to make sure they dont get relegated this year, then try to push for a top half finish the following year.

Leiva

Lets just see if the July16th rumors of Abu Dhabi take over come to fruition .

Heres hoping ....

deisedevil

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Liverpool need to make sure they dont get relegated this year, then try to push for a top half finish the following year.

I seriously doubt Liverpool will be in a relegation battle this year. :rolleyes:

But fingers crossed all the same.

Edit: i should have added the same pic as mixednuts, lol.

Leiva

[QUOTE=Patsy fyre;66911388 Liverpool need to make sure they dont get relegated this year, then try to push for a top half finish the following year.[/QUOTE]


Ahh come on !

Quazzie

Consolidation is the key for Liverpool this year. Try stop the rot and then try build on it. With Hodgson as manager I think they are prettty well equipped to get their players back performing as a unit. He builds teams rather than individuals and thats exactly what Liverpool need. Whether they make it back into the top 4 really depends on a lot of factors. How quick they can stop the rot. How quick the players take to the new manager. How many players are willing to give it a year without CL football. Can Man City gel as a team themselves and therefore keep Liverpool out of the top 4.

There are too many variables to figure out at this stage, but it should make to a really interesting season.

In terms of attractiveness to investors and international fan appeal they will probably always be in the 'Big 4'. Top 4 is different though, and with fans so fickle what happens in the latter might dictate what happens in the former.

Boskowski

Jokin' aside, practically all of my friends who are Liverpool supporters are saying themselves that between the financial situation, the stadium capacity situation and the squad situation it does not look good at all at the moment and they really need some Sheik or something coming in with half a billion to sort them out.

Since that is a very unlikely thing to happen it looks like the fat years are over for the moment. But then again the entire league is a bit rattled with regards to finances and the above can be said for the whole EPL unless you're currently in possession of said sugardaddy. The clubs around Liverpool won't have it as easy either, United springs to mind for example.

So how it all pans out between them remains to be seen, but EPL clubs will have to work harder in general and being in the top 4 won't be a self-fulfilling prophecy any longer.

But apart from all that it will take a severe long-term turn for the worse to take away Liverpools reputation as a great club. Such a thing is not earned in a couple of years and in return it's not lost over a mediocre season or two either.

Edit: Now everyone jumps on the 'City' train when it should be common knowledge at this stage that it takes more to build success than buying what looks like an expensive squad on paper. Real Madrid and England spring to mind for example and yet with a lot of people City seem to have overtaken Liverpool already. I think last season a lot of the problems came from motivating the team for 'run of the mill' games. Liverpool showed up for the big games but they tended to get sloppy in the other ones. If the new manager can stop that then there's a lot of points to be salvaged.