Can Liverpool be considered part of the big 4 anymore?

irishh_bob

Helix wrote: »

they need to work their way back in there thats for sure

theres no big 4 at the moment, its a big 3 then city who have potenital to take liverpools spot, then spurs based on the fact that theyre in the champions league, then the rest of the chasing pack - villa, liverpool and everton

more like a big two , arsenal were never really contenders this past number of seasons ( and i include 09-10 ) and with fabregas on his way out , thier little better than spurs

~Rebel~

mixednuts wrote: »

Ahh come on !

im pretty sure it was tongue in cheek (I hope!)

Xavi6

Boskowski wrote: »

Edit: Now everyone jumps on the 'City' train when it should be common knowledge at this stage that it takes more to build success than buying what looks like an expensive squad on paper. Real Madrid and England spring to mind for example and yet with a lot of people City seem to have overtaken Liverpool already. I think last season a lot of the problems came from motivating the team for 'run of the mill' games. Liverpool showed up for the big games but they tended to get sloppy in the other ones. If the new manager can stop that then there's a lot of points to be salvaged.

If City can do what Real did last year (finish second with the secondest highest points haul in La Liga history) then I'll be quite satisfied.

Boskowski

Xavi6 wrote: »

If City can do what Real did last year (finish second with the secondest highest points haul in La Liga history) then I'll be quite satisfied.

Fair enough, but you will concede that there's a huge discrepancy between Real Madrid's ambitions and spending and their actual achievements.

JimsAlterEgo

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Liverpool need to make sure they dont get relegated this year, then try to push for a top half finish the following year.

Woy guarantees they won't

The Muppet

Boskowski wrote: »

Fair enough, but you will concede that there's a huge discrepancy between Real Madrid's ambitions and spending and their actual achievements.

Spending lots on players doesn't necessarily equate to success, however spending big on quality players with a team ethich does, a la Chelsea. Citys signings of late have been good team players.

folan

Liverpool cant expect their troubles to go away with cash. but some would help.

They need a better youth development, and they need a team that plays well consistently. They need depth. they need to be able to rely on players who arent Torres and Gerrard. And i cant see it at the minute.

But theyre still top 4 material to me. Ill be watching nervously when we play them this year, just like i have done for the last few years

slingerz

The Muppet wrote: »

Spending lots on players doesn't necessarily equate to success, however spending big on quality players with a team ethich does, a la Chelsea. Citys signings of late have been good team players.

TBF i think Yaya Toure will bitch and moan his way around the EPL next year.

Boateng should be a good signing for them though

SlickRic

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Liverpool need to make sure they dont get relegated this year, then try to push for a top half finish the following year.

ludicrous statement.

more out of hope i suspect, than any sort of real logical reasoning.

off-form last year, we got top 6, and we've only lost Benayoun so far this season, and added Jovanovic.

we'll be at the very least challenging for the top 4. there's no chance of being near the bottom of the table.

so in essence...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k

flahavaj

slingerz wrote: »

TBF i think Yaya Toure will bitch and moan his way around the EPL next year.

I've not really heard of Toure having a history of that kinda petulance tbh. Even last season when he was benched (wrongly IMO) for all the bigger matches I didn't hear anything about him moaning about it.

Though those that follow La Liga more closely might shed more light on that.

Warper

In fairness they would still be part of the Big 4 English clubs in terms of stature and tradition. They have one of the biggest grounds plus one of the biggest support. They would still be in the Top 4 in terms of size of the club and following but in terms of quality they look like to are going to be outside of the Top 4 League positions for many years to come unless they can resolve their ownership issues fast.

It takes more than 1 bad season to drop out of the "Big 4" but signs are worrying for Pool supporters.

wanrek

I honestly can't see them being in the top 7 this season, let alone top 4?

conno16

answer to the question = no

~Rebel~

wanrek wrote: »

I honestly can't see them being in the top 7 this season, let alone top 4?

ha, any reasoning behind that?

Ush1

Boskowski wrote: »

Fair enough, but you will concede that there's a huge discrepancy between Real Madrid's ambitions and spending and their actual achievements.

What, the fact they're the most successful club in the world?

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

I've not really heard of Toure having a history of that kinda petulance tbh. Even last season when he was benched (wrongly IMO) for all the bigger matches I didn't hear anything about him moaning about it.

Though those that follow La Liga more closely might shed more light on that.

He's fine, it's his agent that's money hungry. Fantastic player.

wanrek

~Rebel~ wrote: »

ha, any reasoning behind that?

There is too many better teams this season and with it looking like theres gonna be a lot of ship jumpers in the camp I would think its all downhill. Unless you get a Saudi Prince or someone else with loads of extra cash lying around to buy the club.

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

He's fine, it's his agent that's money hungry. Fantastic player.

I think he'll be a monster for City next season.

invinciblePRSTV

Liverpool will be there or thereabouts in the positions between 4th - 8th in the league by the end of the season, same as they always have been in the top division over the past 2 decades or so tbh.

Helix

K-9 wrote: »

Don't think so really

it has been

historically it was a different group of teams, hence some marking the difference with the phrase "sky 4" rather than big 4

Boskowski

Ush1 wrote: »

What, the fact they're the most successful club in the world?

They may be that, but with the money they're spending they'd want to be.
I mean come on Real Madrid are just insane. The whole concept of the Galacticos; signing the absolute best for don't care how much money, ruining the entire market in the process by the way, then fail to see that the best players don't make the best team and consistently crash out in the quarter finals for the last ten years. Plus what they consider the best aren't really what - say - Ottmar Hitzfeld and Guus Hiddink would consider to be the best, more like what 'The Sun' would consider to be the best. Like the 'corny' best if you like.

I mean it must dawn on them eventually that they're doing something wrong.

SlickRic

wanrek wrote: »

There is too many better teams this season and with it looking like theres gonna be a lot of ship jumpers in the camp

i understand these sentiments.

but honestly, bar Masch, and maybe Gerrard (though the only official stuff we've heard is he's likely to stay)...who 'looks like' they're going to jump ship?

Torres, no.

Kuyt, no.

Aquilani, no.

Reina, f*ck no.

no other real valuable players look like they're 'jumping'.

Ush1

Boskowski wrote: »

They may be that, but with the money they're spending they'd want to be.
I mean come on Real Madrid are just insane. The whole concept of the Galacticos; signing the absolute best for don't care how much money, ruining the entire market in the process by the way, then fail to see that the best players don't make the best team and consistently crash out in the quarter finals for the last ten years. Plus what they consider the best aren't really what - say - Ottmar Hitzfeld and Guus Hiddink would consider to be the best, more like what 'The Sun' would consider to be the best. Like the 'corny' best if you like.

I mean it must dawn on them eventually that they're doing something wrong.

Replied in the Real Madrid thread.

Voltwad

Are Liverpool one of the 4 biggest clubs in England?

Of course they are. Silly question.

Will they finish in the top 4? Now that's a different story.

Voltwad wrote: »

Everton will finish ahead of Liverpool next season, I'm confident of it. Liverpool though are still a bigger draw than Everton, Spurs, Villa and City so in that sense yes I consider them one of the big four.

I've hear this most years.

€50 says they don't.

flahavaj

flahavaj wrote: »

I think he'll be a monster for City next season.

Yeah The Money Monster !!

Anthony Walsh

To those referencing Liverpool's finishing spot last season, don't forget it was 7th not 6th.


I really don't know what to expect out of Liverpool next season, with Woy at the helm maybe he can turn them around and get back to at least 4th or they could flop more and end up 7th or worse. As a Man Utd fan I would prefer to see them 4th than Man City, on the basis that Liverpool built that team up and Man City well we all know that story.

Boskowski

SlickRic wrote: »

i understand these sentiments.

but honestly, bar Masch, and maybe Gerrard (though the only official stuff we've heard is he's likely to stay)...who 'looks like' they're going to jump ship?

Torres, no.

Kuyt, no.

Aquilani, no.

Reina, f*ck no.

no other real valuable players look like they're 'jumping'.

Once Masch and Gerrard actually do jump I'd say it's only a matter of time 'til Torres is gone unless the money is reinvested immediately in players of equal or better outlook. I think the one thing that became very clear from his recent statements was that he's unlikely to stay unconditionally.

Le King

I think Liverpool will do all right next year. I can't see Hodgson talking Liverpool back to the Champions League. A few bad results and the fans will be on his back. I don't think there is a "big four". There is a big three. Arsenal, United and Liverpool. That's on history. Liverpool will always be apart of that group. Whether they will get a Cl place next year... I just can't see it.

opr

wanrek wrote: »

I honestly can't see them being in the top 7 this season, let alone top 4?

~Rebel~ wrote: »

ha, any reasoning behind that?

I am a Liverpool fan but I can't see how you don't see this could very realistically happen.

Gerrard hasn't played well in a very long time and is coming off the back of an awful world cup and domestic season. Torres is injured and if we do the right thing by him and give him some proper time to recover we could be a few months without him. Mascherano has made it clear he wants out and losing him would be a huge blow to central midfield. Carragher has clearly lost a yard of pace and you can't consider him the rock he once was.

Your talking about the whole spine of the Liverpool team for the last few years. I am really nervous about the season ahead. That said I have been way to optimistic in seasons gone by so maybe its a good omen.

Opr

Osu

Osu wrote: »

I think Liverpool will do all right next year. I can't see Hodgson talking Liverpool back to the Champions League. A few bad results and the fans will be on his back.

I hate that attitude tbh. Plastic fans who boo a loss or even a draw.

The Anfield crowd will get right behind him from day 1.

JimsAlterEgo

rarnes1 wrote: »

I hate that attitude tbh. Plastic fans who boo a loss or even a draw.

The Anfield crowd will get right behind him from day 1.

I think you will find the Rafalites™ are just waiting for an excuse, there genuinely seems to be some people who are more Rafa fans than pool fans

JimsAlterEgo

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

I think you will find the Rafalites™ are just waiting for an excuse, there genuinely seems to be some people who are more Rafa fans than pool fans

Rafalites LOL

I was píssed off when Rafa left but you gotta move on.

100% behind our new manager.

With the same squad we should fear no-one tbh.

Warper

SlickRic wrote: »

i understand these sentiments.

but honestly, bar Masch, and maybe Gerrard (though the only official stuff we've heard is he's likely to stay)...who 'looks like' they're going to jump ship?

Torres, no. INJURED

Kuyt, no.

Aquilani, no. INJURED

Reina, f*ck no.

no other real valuable players look like they're 'jumping'.

There plus people forget Benayoun left who was one of Liverpool's best players.

Bodhisopha

The big four was a bullshít name created by Sky to group together the English teams that could possibly win the Champions League (although we all knew Arsenal wouldn't), so in that respect, no.

parker kent

Ush1 wrote: »

He's fine, it's his agent that's money hungry. Fantastic player.

Problem might not be him, the problem could be the unsettling effect his wages have on the rest of the team. If he is average or even just decent, better players will resent the money he is on. Others will want to reach parity with his wages, they have made their own rope really be offering such silly money for a player that started 6 games last year.

As for Liverpool, I think they still are in the "Big 4". Talk of them being relegated is just nonsense. If they had 2-3 years outside the Champions League, then you could say they are not a top 4 team.

But really the idea of the big 4 is a constantly changing notion. There's a good argument to be made for saying there really is just a Big Two of United and Chelsea. But that is just momentary, Liverpool are very much at the top table of English football due to their history.

Warper

Bodhisopha wrote: »

The big four was a bullshít name created by Sky to group together the English teams that could possibly win the Champions League (although we all knew Arsenal wouldn't), so in that respect, no.

Actually no, it was created because the same 4 teams finished in the Top 4 of the EPL for ages, only Everton, and Spurs last year gate-crashed that party and both at Liverpool's expense.

Le King

rarnes1 wrote: »

I hate that attitude tbh. Plastic fans who boo a loss or even a draw.

The Anfield crowd will get right behind him from day 1.

It's a terrible attitude, however, every club has fans like this.

SlickRic

Warper wrote: »

There plus people forget Benayoun left who was one of Liverpool's best players.

Torres will be back soon; it's not a serious injury.

Aquilani is fit, and hopefully Hodgson isn't as scared to use him as Rafa seemed to be.

plus people forget we've bought Jovanovic, who looks a tasty prospect.

Ush1

So the general concensus is that Torres won't be leaving?

JimsAlterEgo

rarnes1 wrote: »

Rafalites LOL

I was píssed off when Rafa left but you gotta move on.

100% behind our new manager.

With the same squad we should fear no-one tbh.

There are a few on here that are waiting for him to fail. I agree 100% with what you are saying, if you support a club it shouldn't matter who is manager you get behind them.

Boskowski

I'm no Liverpool fan and I don't want to stir sh1t but he said he wants to sit down and be told where the club is •really• going.
That implies two things here.
a) He doesn't seem to believe that the official line is necessarily the whole truth.
b) It sounds like he is reluctant to declare unconditional loyalty.

Make from that what you will.

PHB

At the start of last season, 4 clubs were considered serious title contenders. United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool.

When next season starts, I don't think that there's many people who will consider Liverpool as title challengers. I know I won't consider City as title challengers. Arsenal and Chelsea however imo have every chance of winning the title. As such, I think that there is now a big 3, and then a big 7 (which includes Spurs, City, Liverpool and Villa). Now of that list, Villa are certainly the weakest long-term imo, but none of them imo can claim to be on a similar level to the top 3.

The Recliner

PHB wrote: »

At the start of last season, 4 clubs were considered serious title contenders. United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool.

When next season starts, I don't think that there's many people who will consider Liverpool as title challengers. I know I won't consider City as title challengers. Arsenal and Chelsea however imo have every chance of winning the title. As such, I think that there is now a big 3, and then a big 7 (which includes Spurs, City, Liverpool and Villa). Now of that list, Villa are certainly the weakest long-term imo, but none of them imo can claim to be on a similar level to the top 3.

I would make that a top 8

Everton had a sh!te season last year with injuries, they would generally be up there though and I expect them to give it a go this season as well

x in the city

Liverpool are shagged, years of under achieving and over spending ,what do you expect.

Everton will finish above them next season if they don't get half their squad injured by December, which is normal for them

Pepe LeFrits

Turtyturd wrote: »

They can probably lay as much claim to being part of it as Arsenal can. The season before last Arsenal struggled to hold their spot in the "big 4" when thye lost a major player through injury.

... Arsenal finished in the top 4 without van Persie.

x in the city

x in the city wrote: »

Liverpool are shagged, years of under achieving and over spending ,what do you expect.

Everton will finish above them next season if they don't get half their squad injured by December, which is normal for them

€50 ?

Turtyturd

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

... Arsenal finished in the top 4 without van Persie.

I said major player.:D

I don't get why a lot of people have the opinion that Arsenal and United are untouchable in these positions.

I think United's Golden period is coming to an end, a lot of their old reliables like Giggs, Scholes etc are going to be gone in a year or two and they have nobody to replace them coming through their system and there is just no value to be had in the transfer market. A serious injury to Rooney and they will struggle.

As I already said Arsenal had to battle it out with Villa the season before last for 4th place, add in strenghtened City and Spurs teams and they are not guaranteed a place either.

K-9

x in the city wrote: »

Liverpool are shagged, years of under achieving and over spending ,what do you expect.

Everton will finish above them next season if they don't get half their squad injured by December, which is normal for them

Problem with that is Liverpool had a serious injury crisis pre Xmas last season as well, defensively especially and were crap. Can't see them being that bad again, especially under Roy.

LuckyLloyd

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

I think you will find the Rafalites™ are just waiting for an excuse, there genuinely seems to be some people who are more Rafa fans than pool fans

You won't find me wanting Hodgson out unless there is a better replacement waiting in the wings. Same as it ever was.

Voltwad

Voltwad wrote: »

Everton will finish ahead of Liverpool next season, I'm confident of it. Liverpool though are still a bigger draw than Everton, Spurs, Villa and City so in that sense yes I consider them one of the big four.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Are Liverpool one of the 4 biggest clubs in England?

Of course they are. Silly question.

Will they finish in the top 4? Now that's a different story.



I've hear this most years.

€50 says they don't.

x in the city wrote: »

Liverpool are shagged, years of under achieving and over spending ,what do you expect.

Everton will finish above them next season if they don't get half their squad injured by December, which is normal for them

rarnes1 wrote: »

€50 ?

Men or mice?