Is Sinn Fein losing their grip?

FTA69

Biggins wrote: »

Try looking up Peter John Carahar

An old man in his seventies.

- Brendan McFarlane

A musician.

Sean Hughes

Now a public figure involved in the Sinn Féin party.

James Monaghan

Another old man pushing seventy.

Bernard Fox

He left the Provisonal Republican Movement a couple of years ago.

You haven't a bloody clue lad, and the fact that many members of Sinn Féin may have IRA records in no way correlates with the IRA being some sort of super-Mafia plotting in the background to make a comeback. It exists as an organisation, barely. But as a viable armed organisation it is largely defunct.

You quoted an article earlier on that stated "no political party would be expected to share power..." etc etc etc. The fact is there are politicians and organisations the world over with roots in a similar background and even today the likes of the DUP have no problem in sharing power with them.

The fact is that Sinn Féin is simply a mediocre, centre-left, run of the mill party nowadays, and your hysteria doesn't really change that at all.

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Yes - the official policy of killing British police and army has ended but their financial gathering activities in its many guises still continues - or would you care to explain away the counterfeit case alone just last month or would one care to carefully avoid it, and avoid the many reports, the names the long list of activities still ongoing and acknowledged by policing agencies all over Europe and at home?

Keep spinning, someone might fall for it.

And would you argue that this activity has increased since the GFA? What are the reasons behind this supposed activity do you think?

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And would you argue that this activity has increased since the GFA? What are the reasons behind this supposed activity do you think?

Why does anyone wish to gain more and more money? Simple question asked with a simple obvious answer.

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Why does anyone wish to gain more and more money? Simple question asked with a simple obvious answer.

Not really, the PIRA have never been motivated by money.

Perhaps you believe they are collecting money to buy arms?

Biggins

FTA69 wrote: »

The fact is that Sinn Féin is simply a mediocre, centre-left, run of the mill party nowadays, and your hysteria doesn't really change that at all.

Tell that to those that are still being threatened into silence upon the deaths of their loved ones!
Look up on RTE's site last night "Crime Capital" programme for very simple example.
I agree with you that SF is a mediocre party and to get back to the main theme, will remain so till they stop ALL activities and associations with criminals, which many has pointed out over the years and still to to this day, is still ongoing.
When that ceases and they start to release the information that policing in the north and south further requires, they stand a better chance of gaining some better credibility.

Lord knows we need a change of something down here!

Perhaps you believe they are collecting money to buy arms?

Never stated that. Please show me where I have....And NO, I don't think they are buying arms for the record.

BlaasForRafa

Notorious97 wrote: »

They are gone, two governments have accepted this, all parties within NI have accepted this, the international body for decommissioning Have accepted this, former members can be involved in god knows what these days, but to say the PIRA is still operating is just wrong

Thats the party line that Sinn Fein/IRA like to trot out, thats for sure.

Wolfe Tone

Never stated that. Please show me where I have.

I said "perhaps"

So you believe then that the PIRA is criminally active for the sole purpose of personal monetary gain?

Personally I would have thought that the obvious reason for a "still active" paramilitary organisation to be gathering money would be to buy weapons.

Notorious97

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Thats the party line that Sinn Fein/IRA like to trot out, thats for sure.

Not a ‘party’ line, its a fact, a fact that anti Republicans love to dismiss. Do you think if they were still operating unionists would share power?

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

...So you believe then that the PIRA is criminally active for the sole purpose of personal monetary gain?

I believe (as do the policing agencies across Europe - and have reported so) that its members are still doing the same activities in finance gain and have diversified into other areas as well - as the saying goes "they have not gone away" - they have just diversified and for anyone to think different, is to deny the many crimes reported every so often in our news, is to deny the police reports, is to deny the pain filled words/testaments of the families of loved ones that have and in some cases, are still dying.

Even a report late last year stated:

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1934610.html

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

I believe (as do the policing agencies across Europe - and have reported so) that its members are still doing the same activities in finance gain and have diversified into other areas as well - as the saying goes "they have not gone away" - they have just diversified and for anyone to think different, is to deny the many crimes reported every so often in our news, is to deny the police reports, is to deny the pain filled words/testaments of the families of loved ones that have and in some cases, are still dying.

Even a report late last year stated:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/provos-aiding-rogue-republicans-1934610.html

And why are they supposedly doing that?

FORMER Provisional IRA activists

Ehhhh you do know what that means right? As in they are no longer affiliated with SF or the PIRA?

The commission accepts that only a few former provisionals are giving help to the dissidents and says is not surprising following the dissolution of IRA structures.

And again.

but the majority of their new members are inexperienced young men.

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And why are they supposedly doing that?

Ehhhh you do know what that means right?

Thats a good question indeed. As we don't sit in on their meetings we can't say can we?

In that ONE case, yes I know what "former" means.
My ma and da kindly sent me to school!

Funny how you still have avoided after MANY mentions though, the report on last months raid?
Would you care to explain why its been stated that quote "The IRA, along with members of Sinn Fein, were behind what the European police agency Europol said was one of the biggest and most sophisticated counterfeiting operations ever uncovered in Europe"

..or do we still want to avoid that one?

CMACSAFF

the pain filled words/testaments of the families of loved ones that have and in some cases, are still dying.

I can feel your pain. I share your pain. I'm weeping at my keyboard. Now its all wet.

But would you not be better turning your rightous angst towards the 16 murders in the Republic linked to gangs this year?

The PIRA is inactive a fact accepted by the PSNI and Unionists. But not you.

Biggins

CMACSAFF wrote: »

...The PIRA is inactive a fact accepted by the PSNI and Unionists. But not you ...or many policing organisations...

You forgot the last bit but I inserted it for you.

And the question is still open! Last months activities and those involved???
The silence on that one so far is deafening as they say!

Wolfe Tone

Why does anyone wish to gain more and more money? Simple question asked with a simple obvious answer..

Obviously not, seen as you do not know it yourself.

As we don't sit in on their meetings we can't say can we?

You then quote a source which lends no weight to your argument. And you say SF have no credibility?

Do you believe that they are former PIRA members, or CIRA or RIRA? And as for the SF members do you believe it is an aim of SF to carry out these things for monetary gain? Or are these people operating with a mandate from the SF leadership? Or are they doing it off of their own bat if they actually are doing these things?

Mylesie

Biggins wrote: »

I believe (as do the policing agencies across Europe - and have reported so) that its members are still doing the same activities in finance gain and have diversified into other areas as well - as the saying goes "they have not gone away" - they have just diversified and for anyone to think different, is to deny the many crimes reported every so often in our news, is to deny the police reports, is to deny the pain filled words/testaments of the families of loved ones that have and in some cases, are still dying.

Even a report late last year stated:

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1934610.html

A simple question to this like many other reports - How many years did it take to get the truth about Bloody Sunday, and at what cost - yet you still believe everything you read?

btw: what's your take on the Dublin and Moneghan bombings - and more to the point what are you doing about it???

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Obviously not, seen as you do not know it yourself.

Jesus man, does everything have to be ABC'ed or spelt out for you?
Are you seriously trying to tell us on the forum you can't see that?
Thats just sadly laughable.

For the MONEY. Duh!!! :rolleyes:

O' and I'm sure the parents of Paul Quinn would appreciate kind tears!

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Jesus man, does everything have to be ABC'ed or spelt out for you?
Are you seriously trying to tell us on the forum you can't see that?
Thats just sadly laughable.

For the MONEY. Duh!!! :rolleyes:

O' and I'm sure the parents of Paul Quinn would appreciate kind tears!

As we don't sit in on their meetings we can't say can we?

So now you do know?
Since when have any part of the IRA been motivated by money?

Biggins

Mylesie wrote: »

A simple question to this like many other reports - How many years did it take to get the truth about Bloody Sunday, and at what cost - yet you still believe everything you read?

Well apparently the evidence was so strong by those actually arrested and found at the site, they had NO hesitation is saying who was responsible within days!

Surprise? Aaaa... no!

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So now you do know?
Since when have any part of the IRA been motivated by money?

Since day one when they needed funding for their activities. Thats on historic record.
Now that some of their more militarist nationalism related activities have ceased they have by many, many, many accounts and reports found better placement for such revenues still coming in by same and more diversified activities.

Into their bank accounts!

maccored

Biggins wrote: »

Even a report late last year stated:

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1934610.html

404 - Page not found

maccored

Biggins wrote: »

Since day one when they needed funding for their activities. Thats on historic record.
Now that some of their more militarist nationalism related activities have ceased they have by many, many, many accounts and reports found better placement for such revenues still coming in by same and more diversified activities.

Into their bank accounts!

everyone to their own. if people want to believe the rubbish that the ira still exist, sf are all crims and the republican movement does it for the cash, then I say work away. People who believe that are fooling themselves and falling for the newspaper selling, gossip rousing papers but thats totally besides the point.

CMACSAFF

From the Independent Monitoring Commission // Government of the United Kingdom // Government of Ireland

Available here http://www.humansecuritygateway.com/showRecord.php?RecordId=33196

You'll note this is a joint British and Irish Governmental body. You'll also note its not the Irish Independant.


Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA)
2.21 In our Twenty-Second Report we reiterated that PIRA had not engaged in terrorist
or other illegal activity; that where individuals had engaged in violence or other
crime it had been without sanction or support and for personal financial gain; and
that such information as had been gathered had been for the purpose of
maintaining the coherence of the republican movement. We also noted that the
leadership had continued to adhere to its strategy, taking a clear and public stance
against terrorist activity and the involvement of members in crime and actively
discouraging members from engaging in public disorder during the parades
season.
2.22 Our assessment is unchanged. We remain of the view we expressed six months
ago and previously: that PIRA has maintained its political course in the period
under review and that it will continue to do so.

CMACSAFF

Can I just add that I have no love for the Republican movement but there are people out there who I suspect are really sorry the PIRA are no longer active.

Biggins

maccored wrote: »

404 - Page not found

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/provos-aiding-rogue-republicans-1934610.html

Clearly some here will have to agree to disagree with others views here.

Sinn Fein has some very, very good hearted members. Some of whom are related to me and firmly believe in what they as an political organisation are working towards.
(which right or wrong, angers me too because it by association, tarnishes their good genuine efforts)

It would be absolutely and TOTALLY wrong to condemn those people who are in it for good and good alone.
My contention (and others) is that they (SF leadership) must in order to make more substantial gains at the ballot box, be more honest and more forth coming with the truth, with not just distancing themselves from those amid them in still criminal activity but creating an absolute break away from them instead.

No connection whatsoever.

Notorious97

CMACSAFF wrote: »

Can I just add that I have no love for the Republican movement but there are people out there who I suspect are really sorry the PIRA are no longer active.

Active or not they will continue to moan about them anyway, so im sure he will ignore your post including the report and focus on that the newspapers have to say.

Biggins

CMACSAFF wrote: »

From the Independent Monitoring Commission // Government of the United Kingdom // Government of Ireland

Available here http://www.humansecuritygateway.com/showRecord.php?RecordId=33196

You'll note this is a joint British and Irish Governmental body. You'll also note its not the Irish Independant.

I agree, I read that too in the Irish Times
(http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0527/1224271229918.html)
Now if SF can rein in those that its still being associated with, there is gains to be made.

Biggins

Just a quick side note.

Notorious97 wrote: »

Active or not they will continue to moan about them anyway, so im sure he will ignore your post including the report and focus on that the newspapers have to say.

I'd never ignore a post.
If someone offers related material, etc, even if it is not in my favour of discussion, it would be reprehensible and stupid of me to ignore it.
If I'm wrong about something (and not necessarily just in the present topic maybe) I would gladly accept items to the contrary of my argument contention.

p.s. Good debate by the way.

Notorious97

Biggins wrote: »

Just a quick side note.


I'd never ignore a post.
If someone offers related material, etc, even if it is not in my favour of discussion, it would be reprehensible and stupid of me to ignore it.
If I'm wrong about something (and not necessarily just in the present topic maybe) I would gladly accept items to the contrary of my argument contention.

p.s. Good debate by the way.

And i cannot argue with that!

Mylesie

Notorious97 wrote: »

And i cannot argue with that!

I agree hope to do similar again soon. tks

Wolfe Tone

So Biggins, do you dispute what that report says? Just to be 100% clear.

that PIRA had not engaged in terrorist
or other illegal activity; that where individuals had engaged in violence or other
crime it had been without sanction or support

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So Biggins, do you dispute what that report says? Just to be 100% clear.

I DO agree what WAS the official PIRA has peaceful intentions.
My contention and many others it seems is that a lot of its members is still involved with activities that are still deemed illegal and are still associated with SF.

Its this situation that needs to change for real gains to be made.
So far Sf heads have been floundering in political limbo.
They have to decide what way to tackle things sooner or later.
To not do so will lead to inner-party frustrations increasing as the younger members who genuinely want to see change that is gainful to them at the ballot box, will seek alternative routes (peaceful ones such as splitting away into their one political org, etc) and having a further detrimental effect on the established SF org as it is.

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

I DO agree what WAS the official PIRA has peaceful intentions.
My contention and many others it seems is that a lot of its members is still involved with activities that are still deemed illegal and are still associated with SF.

Its this situation that needs to change for real gains to be made.
So far Sf heads have been floundering in political limbo.
They have to decide what way to tackle things sooner or later.
To not do so will lead to inner-party frustrations increasing as the younger members who genuinely want to see change that is gainful to them at the ballot box, will seek alternative routes (peaceful ones such as splitting away into their one political org, etc) and having a further detrimental effect on the established SF org as it is.

I still don't quite follow , humor me.

So you believe that members of SF and the PIRA are engaged in criminal activity off of their own bat and not in any "official" capacity? And that their activities cast a bad light on SF?

And not former members of the organisation? Both?

I would argue that SF have made major gains in the last number of the years. If anything it is the older die hards who are splitting, not younger members.

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I still don't quite follow , humor me.

So you believe that members of SF and the PIRA are engaged in criminal activity off of their own bat and not in any "official" capacity? And that their activities cast a bad light on SF?

And not former members of the organisation? Both?

I would argue that SF have made major gains in the last number of the years. If anything it is the older die-hards who are splitting, not younger members.

It could be my fault for providing a lack of clarity but at present it seems there is still an element of "characters" (for want of a better word) that are up to no good.
These people are still associating within the ranks of SF while outside (on the streets) of the organisation, have been linked to illegal activities.
This has been the contention of many a police report. Not just my own words.

I don't believe SF off its own bat is out to instigate criminal activity or its heads now wish to be associated with it.
I do believe though that in order to walk a fine line (so far) many heads within the org have held they mouths silent as to the activities of some of their more rogue members.
I do (myself) think that these activities are "rogue" activities that so far has been tolerated to a degree by inner heads for various clear reasons (to maybe placate more hotter heads with? Etc...).
Its this element of activity that is being associated with them that needs to be eradicated for further gain to be made.
Their actions do indeed cast bad light on the rest. Again, no argument there.

I use the "splitting" possibility as just a future possible occurrence. There are other ways things can go.
I do know this. I have spoken to family and friends who are involved at local lower levels in SF and quite honestly they are tired of the tainting of possible associated crime being tarnished on them all.
They are genuine people - some of them are young and indeed hungry and ambitious. They have admitted to me that they won't stay in an org that seems at least this side of the border, not to be making major substantial gains from East to West.
They are restless, being held back un-intentionally and I can understand that frustration.

Nodin

Another day, another thread devolved into groundless hysterical shinner bashing.....

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

Another day, another thread devolved into groundless hysterical shinner bashing.....

*sigh*

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Another day, another thread devolved into groundless hysterical shinner bashing.....

considering what the shinners have done to this country and to northern ireland they are eminently worth bashing.

Wolfe Tone

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

considering what the shinners have done to this country and to northern ireland they are eminently worth bashing.

What an ignorant post that is.

dlofnep

Is Sinn Féin responsible for every troubled youth that descends into violence? No.

I'm not sure what's to discuss. Sinn Féin has played a positive role in bringing peace to Ireland - but some will never accept a peaceful solution to the national question.

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

*sigh*

You've derailed a thread.

You've also being saying that its the IRA/SF, changed to 'those known to them', changed to their 'associates', changed to 'former members' in a sort of stream of conciousness styled river of muck to throw.

If theres any sighs due, its not from your end.

FlutterinBantam

Nodin wrote: »

Another day, another thread devolved into groundless hysterical shinner bashing.....

Some might say shining a light on what is 'really ' happening rather than accepting the official line from the spin doctors.

what every dog in the street knows like;)

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Some might say shining a light on what is 'really ' happening rather than accepting the official line from the spin doctors.

what every dog in the street knows like;)

Dogs on the street tend to be more focussed on defecation, urination and the sniffing of each others posteriors to examine and record such matters.


This is the state of affairs as accepted by the Governments and the partys.
http://www.humansecuritygateway.com/showRecord.php?RecordId=33196
Should you know better, please contact them, or at least hold the phone for any canine friends with information to bark on.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Some might say shining a light on what is 'really ' happening rather than accepting the official line from the spin doctors.

Ah yes - Like the official line that you accepted from the Widgery Report. :rolleyes:

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

You've derailed a thread.

You've also being saying that its the IRA/SF, changed to 'those known to them', changed to their 'associates', changed to 'former members' in a sort of stream of conciousness styled river of muck to throw.

If there's any sighs due, its not from your end.

We had a friendly discussion where many sides were put.
You will note I show repeated concern for members of SF so please do NOT accuse me of throwing muck either to all or a majority.
I mention reports made, stated and repeated again and again and provide links to such items stated, not by myself but varied others.
They speak (thankfully) of a minority that I feel is ruining something for the rest.

I'm speaking up on behalf of friends and family that are actually in SF and their concerns - the decent vast majority.

If you don't like that, there is nothing I can do to please you.
Besides coming in here and accusing folk of just plain "bashing", you'd be better off contributing something more substantial like your later post.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah yes - Like the official line that you accepted from the Widgery Report. :rolleyes:

The official line from the Irish Govt. was that the economy would have a 'soft landing'

The diffusion between the official line and what is actually happening, can take opposite and contrary directions;)

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The official line from the Irish Govt. was that the economy would have a 'soft landing'

The diffusion between the official line and what is actually happening, can take opposite and contrary directions;)

Which is, you tend to pick and choose when the official line applies.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

Which is, you tend to pick and choose when the official line applies.

No.

It's I have enough cop on to know what is happening, and not accept everything I'm told from official sources as Gospel.

Beware the vested interests as I keep tell people in here.

I kinda make up my own mind on what I know is true.

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

We had a friendly discussion where many sides were put.
You will note I show repeated concern for members of SF so please do NOT accuse me of throwing muck either to all or a majority.
.

Another change in tune. No such caveats here.....

I agree but if they want his support (and ours someday) they will have to end the witness intimidation to the crimes some of their colleagues are participating in.
They will have to end the two faced lies to the nations cameras.
They will have to hand over those they know to be responsible for many a crime.
They will have to stop some of their "mates" raiding the Dublin dock ship containers.
They will have to stop supposedly taking revenue from those in crime who are coughing up so that the republican regional gangs (local equivalent versions of a "Mafia" now) will look the other way.
They will have to do all that and more - but you and I know they won't.
So they will stay where they are, in limbo floating around with a core minimum support and remain going nowhere fast.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66911134&postcount=7


or here

I respect your opinion but will have to disagree completely.
I, my family (close and extended) and many that I know still see the one and the other as something that has just changed tactics, done a PR job and possible re-organisation while still maintaining the same bad antics.
...But we will have to agree, to disagree.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66912049&postcount=9

......etc and so on. Now its 'o its a minority in Sinn Fein'. 'I have family in Sinn Fein'....

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

.

I kinda make up my own mind on what I know is true.

And that I believe.

FlutterinBantam

Nodin wrote: »

And that I believe.

You should try it.

Much more interesting than just churning out the party line.;)

Biggins

Nodin, I have no wish to aggravate you for something we disagree over.
Twist my words as ye wish.
I'm not going to rise to the bait. I wish you well.