RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

The norwegians have oil tho...

watty

Limerik/Dublin is about 52/ 53 deg north;
Satellite elevations 22.5 for Sky, 29 for kasat

Tromso in Norway is 70 deg North. Elevation to Satellite Thor is only 11 degrees.

Satellite reception even NOT in a Fjord is very challenging in much of Norway. Below 12 degrees elevation building and ground noise is an issue apart from getting a view of sky.

Hardly any rural houses in Ireland are shadowed from 29 degree Elevation satellite.

slegs

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Maybe I'm too cynical but surely anyone who currently gets poor analogue and doubtful DTT are already using $ky. Given a choice of paying several hundred Euro for another box to get RTE many people will just say "thanks but I'l stick with what works for me now". People hate change in any form, even if it saves them money in the longer term.

Thats why i has to be cast effective at 1.5m because they dont expect huge numbers to take it up. it is to provide 100% coverage. As said already it is not a commercial enterprise. RTE are happy for people to stay on Sky as long as they are watching.

snaps

watty wrote: »

Limerik/Dublin is about 52/ 53 deg north;
Satellite elevations 22.5 for Sky, 29 for kasat

Tromso in Norway is 70 deg North. Elevation to Satellite Thor is only 11 degrees.

Satellite reception even NOT in a Fjord is very challenging in much of Norway. Below 12 degrees elevation building and ground noise is an issue apart from getting a view of sky.

Yes i was up in the very far north of Finland and i remember being amazed at the satellite dishes near enough looking into the ground, due to the offset!!!!

Apogee

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Given a choice of paying several hundred Euro for another box to get RTE

Several hundred euro?

Apogee

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There are households in a satellite shadow (they live on the north side of a hill or mountain), what about them ??

There are housholds in a 9e satellite/tree shadow who can get 28e....and vice versa, what about them ??

You will never be able to cover everyone, but at least with sat backup, you'll be pretty damn close. And considering some of the lengths I've seen people go to to get even snowy VHF reception of RTÉ, I reckon trees will be the least of their concerns.

Where there's a will ...

watty

What is 20m to left? Unless there is a Stadium or 25m high wall the sat dish would work sitting on the ground.


BTW I edited some of my earlier posts regarding content and number of DTT sites 90+ ->> actually 51 is target
from https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/7609/120372.doc (The RTE presentation to Oireachtas)

Kotek Besar

Who thought of the name "Saorsat"? Was it Michael Collins?

Minstrel27

Apogee wrote: »

That really did make me laugh. Why put a dish on the top of a telegraph pole?

Kotek Besar

Minstrel27 wrote: »

That really did make me laugh. Why put a dish on the top of a telegraph pole?

I think it looks amazing and not difficult at all to maintain or readjust when the wind knocks out the alignment.

watty

Minstrel27 wrote: »

That really did make me laugh. Why put a dish on the top of a telegraph pole?

Some reasons I thought of

• To stop people kicking balls / throwing stones
• Anti-theft
• There really is a massive wall/cliff/building just to left of shot
• Stupidity or Ignorance of how satellite works
• To make amusing photo
• It's a photoshop job

I guess we won't know.

icdg

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Who thought of the name "Saorsat"? Was it Michael Collins?

LOL, indeed too close to "Saorstat Éireann" (the name of the state between 1922 and 1937) for my liking.

Anyways, back on topic. This stinks of RTÉ trying to find an excuse not to complete the DTT rollout. Practically all domestic satellite dishes in this country are pointed at Astra 2x. Why would RTÉ reinvent the wheel by starting a new satellite service elsewhere?

The answer is, they don't intend for Saorsat to be a success. They intend it to be there. So that they can tell the government, "well, we can't complete the DTT rollout, but here, those who can't recieve DTT can buy this". It also allows them to tell the Government they have just achieved 100% blanket FTA coverage in Northern Ireland at a stroke.

In reality, no one is going to make the sort of investment (€200+) needed to recieve this service - with a mere seven channels, four of which they already have and another two of which is largely composed of programming they can already recieve on RTÉ1/2 - when for the same money they can put up a satellite dish aimed at Astra and recieve hundreds of English-langauge channels.

I'll deal with the proposed line-up over in the DTT thread in terrestrial, but suffice to say, I don't think any satellite service in the English speaking world has launched with a smaller channel selection since BSB. And at least that was five new channels. There will be only really one new channel on this - 3e. If they can clear their rights for FTA, that is.

watty

There is no difference in 3E on Saorsat and Saorview for rights. Same footprint.

icdg

watty wrote: »

There is no difference in 3E on Saorsat and Saorview for rights. Same footprint.

Nope, the same issue applies to 3e being on Saorview - that the channel is currently, despite all of TV3's posturing, a pay-TV channel. Its programming rights would have been acquired on that basis. This is not to say that it cannot move from being pay-TV to FTA as E4 has done before it but it will have to ensure its rights holders know that it is going FTA before it does so.

copacetic

icdg wrote: »

Nope, the same issue applies to 3e being on Saorview - that the channel is currently, despite all of TV3's posturing, a pay-TV channel. Its programming rights would have been acquired on that basis. This is not to say that it cannot move from being pay-TV to FTA as E4 has done before it but it will have to ensure its rights holders know that it is going FTA before it does so.

I don't believe this is an issue in Ireland as rights are generally bought for the country, rather than the platform. 3E covers the whole country via an Irish sky card so they should have no rights issues going on Saorview or Saorsat.

In the UK rights are often sold per platform, hence the different issues there.

Mr McBoatface

icdg wrote: »

In reality, no one is going to make the sort of investment (€200+)

Most people won't have to as they be either paying a pay TV provider and are not bothered or they can pick up the DTT with existing Aerials or Rabbit ears.

For those who want only the Irish digital channels and can only get it through Saorsat the price is not yet fixed as there may very well be subsidises so the 200+ cost at this moment in time is speculation.

Time will tell what the costs will be, the equipment or prices have not even be announced, the final line up will be come clearer too.

watty

1) DTT rollout costs and coverage
Re-reading the RTE presentation to the Committee I'm shocked they only intend 51 DTT sites. I had assumed cutting back from 140+ to 90. You need 140 to 150 approx for almost full coverage and then Satellite "clone" for the 0.5% to 1% that can't get or have poor signal.

With only 51 sites, you are looking maybe at 5% to 10% needed Satellite.


I'll add more here: http://www.techtir.ie/watty/soartv
(Currently has list of single posts on boards also as well as comment)

2) Viewer Costs
It's not a Multichannel Pay TV competitor. It's purely to replace Analogue so the Government can get their money (So called "Digital Dividend"). So Government should be sub-venting extra money for rollout and paying 100% of cost for satellite dish installs for those with no DTT signal and subsidy equal to basic DTT set-box for all others with DTT reception that have Medical Card.

For those that have pay TV (nearly 80%) none of this is an issue unless you want HD RTE, the DAB stations or what ever other extra Irish DTT is launched as it's possible none of this will go on Sky. Adding it to Cable is more likely, but none will go on MMDS.

If you have FTA or Freesat satellite, the Kasat (if that's what it is) "dish" can be an insignificant box that could be added for under €100. You'd need an upgrade to Freesat HD, (no HDTV needed) for setbox though.

A basic DIY Saorsat system is likely to be under €60 by ASO (Analogue Switch Off).

Onthe3rdDay

copacetic wrote: »

I don't believe this is an issue in Ireland as rights are generally bought for the country, rather than the platform. 3E covers the whole country via an Irish sky card so they should have no rights issues going on Saorview or Saorsat.

In the UK rights are often sold per platform, hence the different issues there.

None of us can actually know what the rights situation is with 3e (unless someone actually works for tv3) The rights have been bought for the country but for a station that is not free to air. There has never been a case before where a Irish station has gone from paid to free.

Onthe3rdDay

watty wrote: »

If you have FTA or Freesat satellite, the Kasat (if that's what it is) "dish" can be an insignificant box that could be added for under €100. You'd need an upgrade to Freesat HD, (no HDTV needed) for setbox though.

Says the person who doesn't mind putting up the odd satellite dish or three.

Tony

As copa says there is not difference in rights between FTA and non FTA, the rights in Ireland are geographical, you dont need to work in tv3 to know this. The only other rights available are Irish language.

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

None of us can actually know what the rights situation is with 3e (unless someone actually works for tv3) The rights have been bought for the country but for a station that is not free to air. There has never been a case before where a Irish station has gone from paid to free.

icdg

icdg wrote: »

Anyways, back on topic. This stinks of RTÉ trying to find an excuse not to complete the DTT rollout. Practically all domestic satellite dishes in this country are pointed at Astra 2x. Why would RTÉ reinvent the wheel by starting a new satellite service elsewhere?

The answer is, they don't intend for Saorsat to be a success. They intend it to be there. So that they can tell the government, "well, we can't complete the DTT rollout, but here, those who can't recieve DTT can buy this". It also allows them to tell the Government they have just achieved 100% blanket FTA coverage in Northern Ireland at a stroke.

Whilst I wouldn't use the term stinks,I think that you are right and that is exactly RTE's thinking ie no need for the transposers/infills and just dtt on the existing main sites.
I'd also agree that it will allow them to say NI is completely covered albeit with larger dishes.

In reality, no one is going to make the sort of investment (€200+) needed to recieve this service - with a mere seven channels, four of which they already have and another two of which is largely composed of programming they can already recieve on RTÉ1/2 - when for the same money they can put up a satellite dish aimed at Astra and recieve hundreds of English-langauge channels.

People will want RTE and will do whatever they can to get it so I'd agree but disagree with this.
I'd imagine it's early days and that RTE aren't off the hook yet and some scheme will have to be thought up for low income households in areas not served by dtt.
My guess is that those who get free licences will be getting at the very least subsidised saorsat.
I'd agree with Watty that the price of the saorsat element of this if it's an lnb addon hybrid affair will be way less than €200.We'll have to see.

I'll deal with the proposed line-up over in the DTT thread in terrestrial, but suffice to say, I don't think any satellite service in the English speaking world has launched with a smaller channel selection since BSB. And at least that was five new channels. There will be only really one new channel on this - 3e. If they can clear their rights for FTA, that is.

3e already can claim a potential audience of probably more than a million homes,I doubt there'll be much rights uproar about another few thousand.For all we know they've already accounted for any extra cost in terms of the saving they may be[or should be] negotiating in that transmission costs for dtt are way lower than att.

Onthe3rdDay

Tony wrote: »

As copa says there is not difference in rights between FTA and non FTA, the rights in Ireland are geographical, you dont need to work in tv3 to know this. The only other rights available are Irish language.

When you buy the rights to various materials from various sources there are different contracts. Rights in general for Ireland are geographical but not always. Unless you have the contracts in front of you, you can't say for definite that rights are geographical. The bigger TV companies are very protective of their product.

Apogee

watty wrote: »

It's a photoshop job

Whatever it is, it is not a photoshop job. As originally posted here by Antenna a few years back, it's from a photocollection of Irish aerials and oddities by Bill Wright, installer of some repute, and familiar to many on this forum.

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/L693MKY/Ireland%201/?start=40

I know of a similar install close-by, which is for house surrounded by trees and an embankment. I'll try and get a photo of it.

watty

I really don't think the 44cm boxed cassegrain dish (suitable for Kasat, and currently €25 including a Ku Universal LNB ) is going to count when councils or landlords looking for Dishes...



Typical MMDS dish, 44cm boxed dish and UHF grid for DTT

The Grid aerial costs more (but only retail, Trade it's not expensive, decent one with PCB balun). The cheap "clone" grids are 2mm coat-hanger wire instead of 3mm or more anodized aluminium and have no balun.

The MMDS "dish" is standard size and heavier still.

The funny dark line is because I couldn't get far enough back to have all in shot. Stitched two photos, but same scale.

Apogee

icdg wrote: »

LOL, indeed too close to "Saorstat Éireann" (the name of the state between 1922 and 1937) for my liking.

Firstly 'Saorview'. And now 'Saorsat'. You must be feeling fierce trína chéile.

icdg wrote: »

Anyways, back on topic. This stinks of RTÉ trying to find an excuse not to complete the DTT rollout. Practically all domestic satellite dishes in this country are pointed at Astra 2x. Why would RTÉ reinvent the wheel by starting a new satellite service elsewhere?

How many 'Ireland only' spotbeams are there on 28E that would allow them to transmit unencrypted?

icdg wrote: »

In reality, no one is going to make the sort of investment (€200+) needed to recieve this service - with a mere seven channels, four of which they already have and another two of which is largely composed of programming they can already recieve on RTÉ1/2 - when for the same money they can put up a satellite dish aimed at Astra and recieve hundreds of English-langauge channels.

How does a dish, Ka-LNBF and a diseqc switch come to €200+?

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

1) DTT rollout costs and coverage
Re-reading the RTE presentation to the Committee I'm shocked they only intend 51 DTT sites.

They only ever announced 53 sties ( those listed in all the Commercial DTT Applications) but we assumed that they would roll out another 100-150 relays to deal with the inevitable blackspots. Now they say they will not. Certain blackspots , eg on the south coast , are ideal for satellite but others are in satellite shadow and need a terrestrial relay .....even if that relay is fed by satellite. Leenane/Killary would be quite a good example.

1) List of 53 Transmitters and their estimated pop coverage in 2007 ( this has been reordered at least twice) . 2 of these have been dropped, evidently, maybe more with others taking their place. Galway was then supposed to have been on the Hynes building in town but is now up in Tonabrocky for example.

http://www.bci.ie/DTT/easy_tv/append1_tech.pdf

2) Map of 53 transmitters coverage Q1 2013

http://www.bci.ie/DTT/easy_tv/append5_tech.pdf

watty

Apogee wrote: »

How many 'Ireland only' spotbeams are there on 28E that would allow them to transmit unencrypted?

How does a dish, Ka-LNBF and a diseqc switch come to €200+?

There are no spot beams on ANY existing Satellite that cover only Ireland.
ALL existing spots http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66950421&postcount=206 that can be got in Ireland with 65cm dish max (though really Sky needs 80cm in extreme SW and parts of West for same rain margin as 65cm in Athlone)

Kasat launch end of year is only possible candidate.


It doesn't. But an entire install including labour could. The Government (not RTE) has to pay for this in areas with no DTT.

Leenane/Killary would be quite a good example.

Lat/long?
I agree anywhere that gets no sat signal should get infill. If there is a "clone" transport stream on Saorsat (which unlike Sky is possible) then the Infill transmitter can be really cheap. A Professional Tanberg Sat RX feed COFDM modulator & UHF PA via single ASI BNC coax. Maybe under €25,000

(summary with list of posts in this thread http://www.techtir.ie/watty/soartv )

Tony

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

Unless you have the contracts in front of you, you can't say for definite that rights are geographical.

Rights have always been geographical for tv in Ireland and unless you have the contracts in front of you there is no basis for saying that 3E will have any rights issues if they go on DTT/Saorsat.

Its a non issue lets get back on topic

Onthe3rdDay

Tony wrote: »

Rights have always been geographical for tv in Ireland and unless you have the contracts in front of you there is no basis for saying that 3E will have any rights issues if they go on

Its a non issue lets get back on topic

My final say on the matter is that the past is not a guide to the future in this case. Neither you or I can know as neither of us have the contracts in front of us. You have no basis either in saying that they can go on DTT/Saorsat without consulting the rights owners.

However, dealing with such companies in the past they cover every angle. If there are more people watching they'll generally want more money. Usually they cover themselves in these contracts.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

Lat/long? I agree anywhere that gets no sat signal should get infill. If there is a "clone" transport stream on Saorsat (which unlike Sky is possible) then the Infill transmitter can be really cheap. A Professional Tanberg Sat RX feed COFDM modulator & UHF PA via single ASI BNC coax. Maybe under €25,000

http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=53.594413&lon=-9.698288&zoom=14

watty

Can they see the sun approx 1hr 12min before solar local noon (= approx 9E + 8W = 24 x 17/360) (about 12.20hrs summer time, 11:20 am GMT I think?) at spring or autumn equinox (29 degrees elevation) from the upper floor or roof?

If so you are not shadowed from the satellite @ 9E.

Astra/Eurobird (282.E) is about 1hrs 20min earlier, so nearly exactly South West and about 22.5 degree Elevation.

In wintertime the sun is lower and in summer time the sun is higher, but the satellites are in the same place as they were spring and autumn.

Twice a year (spring or autumn equinox) the noise level is high on your dish for a few minutes a day for a few days as the sun passes behind the satellite. Only weaker signals would actually be lost.

I can put the co-ordinates in my software and see. RTE should do this for all the areas they know will have no DTT. They ought to be able to create a Sat shadow map for DTT bad areas

Gerry Wicklow

Apogee wrote: »

Several hundred euro?

Inc new dish and installer

Tony

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

Neither you or I can know as neither of us have the contracts in front of us..

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

I'll repeat for the last time, Irish tv rights have always been geographical and you have presented zero evidence to convince me or anyone else that this has changed. Your contention that 3 E will have rights issues if the go on DTT is based on nothing and is pure speculation on your part.

You may as well argue that RTE have rights issues if they go on DTT. The very reasoning behind KA spot beam is that it is geographical and therefore avoids rights problems.

Onthe3rdDay

Tony wrote: »

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

I'll repeat for the last time, Irish tv rights have always been geographical and you have presented zero evidence to convince me or anyone else that this has changed. Your contention that 3 E will have rights issues if the go on DTT is based on nothing and is pure speculation on your part.

You may as well argue that RTE have rights issues if they go on DTT. The very reasoning behind KA spot beam is that it is geographical and therefore avoids rights problems.

Yes, Irish TV rights have always been geographical (in general) but for terrestrial broadcasters. 3e is not one of those at this time. That will allegedly change after DTT/Saorsat comes online. Neither of us know the facts behind 3e's business plan so it's pure speculation on your part to assume that things will remain the same as in the past.

If that was the case we would still have one black and white TV station! In my personal experience TV3 don't pay for anything unless they really have to. I'm sure there won't be too much of a problem for them to clear rights but you usually can't flick on a switch without checking first.

Many of the problems in this country come from people not taking the time to do things right.

I close my argument.

watty

I'll be pleasantly surprised if TV3 are on DTT at all on 1st Nov 2010 without a major tantrum. They may argue there is no need to pay until the 1st Analogue TX is getting turned off.

Minstrel27

watty wrote: »

They may argue there is no need to pay until the 1st Analogue TX is getting turned off.

I imagine the analogue tx's that they are on will be the last to be turned off.

Tony

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

I close my argument.

A nonsensical arguement, little point in debating this further.

azzeretti

Apogee wrote: »

Whatever it is, it is not a photoshop job. As originally posted here by Antenna a few years back, it's from a photocollection of Irish aerials and oddities by Bill Wright, installer of some repute, and familiar to many on this forum.

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/L693MKY/Ireland%201/?start=40

I know of a similar install close-by, which is for house surrounded by trees and an embankment. I'll try and get a photo of it.

There is a similar one to that photo on the N11 just outside Bray (heading South). The dish is way up on a large telegraph pole. The house is right in the valley and then caged in by very large trees.....I always think it looks great when I drive by it!

Onthe3rdDay

Tony wrote: »

A nonsensical arguement, little point in debating this further.

Fine tony:D

Apogee

watty wrote: »

There are no spot beams on ANY existing Satellite that cover only Ireland.

I know. The question was rhetorical.

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Inc new dish and installer

Given a choice between a once off payment of "several hundred euro" for a complete system and installation, as opposed to paying "several hundred euro" every year for a similar selection of channels, I know which one I'd go for.

Regardless, it's purpose is to satisfy a 'public service remit', not to act as a commerical alternative to Sky or UPC.

watty

Apogee wrote: »

I know. The question was rhetorical.

I know you know, but not everyone knows what you know I know, nor indeed knows what you know I know and what we don't know.

Apogee

watty wrote: »

I know you know, but not everyone knows what you know I know, nor indeed knows what you know I know and what we don't know.

Are you related to Donald Rumsfeld?

watty

Probabily not.

emaherx

watty wrote: »

I know you know, but not everyone knows what you know I know, nor indeed knows what you know I know and what we don't know.

Wow! that comment actualy hurts my brain, maybe I've had enough to drink tonight!

---

I'm not sure that I understand some of the arguments put forward:

1)could cost several hundred euro for Receiver, Dish + install.
fair enough but, alot of people who may be able to get DTT will have to spend just as much on aerial upgrade/realignment and new STB

2)why would anybody pay so much to recieve the 4 channels they already have?
Em, maybe because they are going to loose the ability to receive these channels using their current setup. (non SKY/ UPC subscribers)


Personely I have a Torodial Wave Frontier T55 and it will be just as cheap for me to upgrade the TV's in my house that don't currently have DTT to Saorsat as it will Saorview.

OK so not every one will have such a dish already, but as pointed out by Watty small inexpensive dishes are available. And a lot more people will chance a diy sat install than will an aerial install especially if great heights are required.

Tony

The unknown knowns

emaherx wrote: »

Wow! that comment actualy hurts my brain, maybe I've had enough to drink tonight!


.

Apogee

A bit more professional than a lop sided telegraph pole:



Dish about half ways up a particularly sturdy steel pole with an FM antenna (?) at the top.

MACHEAD

From a 'Northern' perspective, can I say, and I think I can speak for a majority up here, that we see this as a very welcome move by RTÉ. Even after DSO and the terrestrial transmitters go on full power, a lot of areas up here wil still have no or poor digital RTÉ coverage. The whole debate as to whither the irish DTT channels would be caried on the DTT transmitters up here has seemed to run into the usual problems and is unlikely to be resolved anytime soon. This new Saorsat service has the pontential to provide a high quality 9 channel TV service and up to 12 radio channels on a platform other than Sky. I for one will welcome the oppertunity to ditch Sky and find myself in the position of no longer having to pay a UK Co. to provide irish TV channels to a part of Ireland.

Sam Russell

A lot of this talk about Saorsat reminds me of the rush to get MMDS up and running for rural dwellers to get UKTV, and lots and lots of dooooom spoken about. It will never work, wrong system, too much loss, line of sight, etc. etc. I think there was an election coming up.

If it works, which it will, as likely as not, it will be great. If as Watty says, the Saorsat is confined to one segment of the LNB, then a simple IF amplifier will allow the signal to be distributed to many TVs, just like DTT or analogue. That is great.

If I have a FTA satellite receiver, will I be able to connect up the new LNB and it work? Or will I need a new receiver?

watty

You'll need a DVB-S2 HD receiver for Video + Audio.
As to EPG etc, they may have exact copy of Soarview so as to be able to use it as a TX site feed.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

You'll need a DVB-S2 HD receiver for Video + Audio.
As to EPG etc, they may have exact copy of Soarview so as to be able to use it as a TX site feed.

So a Humax Foxsat PVR should do it?