Love/Hate [** Spoilers **]

Imhof Tank

bullvine wrote: »

I will be shocked if they kill off Fran, hes a brilliant supporting character who could have a big role to play in the fourth series if he finds out Nidge was shagging his missus Linda.

That would just be Gang Boss No 1 versus Gang Boss No 2 though.

Not much of a plot no matter how good the 2 actors are.

bullvine

Imhof Tank wrote: »

That would just be Gang Boss No 1 versus Gang Boss No 2 though.

Not much of a plot no matter how good the 2 actors are.

Yea but Fran is gonna find out sooner or later Nidge petrol bombed the house, the fact Darren slightly blackmailed Nidge in Sundays episode tells me that.

Happyman42

Imhof Tank wrote: »

You need to pay more attention. Aido manages the street dealers and is seen counting cash in his flat.

Motorcycle couriers are seen delivering bags of cash to Nidge's house.

Tommy is the bag man for the knocking shop which is the other main revenue stream.

As for them being under pressure - the fallout from Gits death is the most pressing issue at the moment. The drug business is their bread and butter - it was runing soothly before recent events.

Fair points but I think these are just token and unbelieavble references to what they do. Unexplained cash being delivered to Nidges house? would he really do that with mounting pressure and scrutiny from the Gardai? would Darren hide out at Aido's in the same circumstances? It's not really that credible.
Nidge's world unravelling would have been more compelling had they truthfully investigated his position.

Not sure how you cater for people comming in half way through a show in terms of back story reminders - if there were constant references to shipments comming in etc I have a feeling you would be criticising the writers for being obvious.

Not at all, as I said, it would have added to, not detracted from the series.

Imhof Tank

bullvine wrote: »

Yea but Fran is gonna find out sooner or later Nidge petrol bombed the house, the fact Darren slightly blackmailed Nidge in Sundays episode tells me that.

He could, and then the confrontation could happen in the finale. Dont think its enough to build the next series around.

I can see Nidge taking sadistic pleasure in gloating about giving it to Linda "up the goother" and how she loved it, just before Fran is executed. Cold hearted bastard.

knucklehead6

Happyman42 wrote: »

Fair points but I think these are just token and unbelieavble references to what they do. Unexplained cash being delivered to Nidges house? would he really do that with mounting pressure and scrutiny from the Gardai? would Darren hide out at Aido's in the same circumstances? It's not really that credible.
Nidge's world unravelling would have been more compelling had they truthfully investigated his position.



Not at all, as I said, it would have added to, not detracted from the series.

Ok.... we get it. you have issues with the production of the series. Start off a new thread called Happyman42's Nit Pickers Guide to Love/Hate and rant away in there. Making a point, then making the same point, then making the same point, then making the same point, then making the same point, then making the same point, then making the same point is getting boring

BidillyBo

Happyman are you actually able to enjoy any show or movie that isnt written up to oscars standard. I think you just need to chill and watch it and not think about everything so much

RainyDay

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Ok.... we get it. you have issues with the production of the series. Start off a new thread called Happyman42's Nit Pickers Guide to Love/Hate and rant away in there. Making a point, then making the same point, then making the same point, then making the same point, then making the same point, then making the same point, then making the same point is getting boring

BidillyBo wrote: »

Happyman are you actually able to enjoy any show or movie that isnt written up to oscars standard. I think you just need to chill and watch it and not think about everything so much

Don't feed the trolls, guys - it only encourages them. The ignore list is your friend.

themadchef

julyjane wrote: »

That would be a bit too Home & Away for my liking

The fact that i am thinking "Dallas" here makes me an auld wan.

Home and away... jayzis... lol Pippa and John and Fisher LOL

TheNap

Best line of the series for far from Nidge when he was getting interviewed'Go ahead , take your best shot , you f*****g tramp'

Imhof Tank

TheNap wrote: »

Best line of the series for far from Nidge when he was getting interviewed'Go ahead , take your best shot , you f*****g tramp'

Actually, I didnt think "tramp" was up to his usual standard at all in terms of insults.

Nosey Geebag and "Disease Ridden Junkie Whore" were authentic, but they've been used.

The c word is obviously still taboo on RTE?

kippy

Happyman42 wrote: »

Apart from the odd recreational snort of coke or the popping of a pill, drugs are not a factor in Darrens daily life, so spending the money on drugs is not what he is doing. Whatever way you look at it, it's just another badly written, unresolved part of the script.
It's another inconsistency in the whole project, anybody joining at the start of this, the 3rd series would have no idea how these guys survive. There is little reference, if any at all, to the fact that Darren is a drug taker. The way they make money(drugs) never impinges on their daily lives in the way that it should and would. Nidge is never under pressure from the supposed way he makes his living, which would be a constant cat and mouse game with the gardai and supplying sellers and getting money in. We are never aware of him running all of this and I think it would have added to the series not taken away from it.
I think that in Darren's case it is the fact that he can't be made likable or sexy if he is a regular drug taker, the writers have made a concious decision to shy away from that aspect of him, because regular drugtaking and being constantly broke because you are feeding a habit (addiction) doesn't sit well with the way they want you to feel about the character. They are very clear however about how they want you to feel about the girl in the brothel though.

If these guys are heavy drug users we should see the impact of that on their lives and their decisions. We don't because style wins over content and it is that moral ambivilence in the telling of this story that I find interesting and worthy of discussion.

As a matter of interest have you watched, and what are your opinions of The Wire?

leggo

Happyman42 wrote: »

Fair points but I think these are just token and unbelieavble references to what they do. Unexplained cash being delivered to Nidges house? would he really do that with mounting pressure and scrutiny from the Gardai? would Darren hide out at Aido's in the same circumstances? It's not really that credible.
Nidge's world unravelling would have been more compelling had they truthfully investigated his position.

Not at all, as I said, it would have added to, not detracted from the series.

Really man, you just come across as a combination of trying to hate the series because everyone else likes it to try and have a 'credible' opinion for the purpose of getting people's attention...and just being a troll. Your nitpicking in the post before this was dealt with a perfect explanation and, instead of just accepting it, you opted to nitpick further for the sake of it. Here's how that conversation JUST went:

"That isn't realistic enough. They don't explain how this happens."
"No, they do, you just didn't understand it. It happens because of this and this and this."
"...okay then, well I still want it to be MORE real!"

Do you see how ridiculous this is getting?

overthenest

in fairness ya could see mrs dano doing in dano and id say sean mcginley wouldnt mind too much as git and dano were a hindrance (problems with the drink and random violence) to their cause which is gun running, i think nidge is more valuable to sean mcginley than a dead git and dano

Q_ueeny

Im actually so upset Sunday night is the last epsoide in this series!

Im going to Carlow for a Christmas party Saturday night so I will be in the depts of self inflicted pain Sunday so a take away, freezing cans of Coke and Love/Hate will be on the menu. Ill make sure to give it a good send off

What I love about it the most is , I have no idea what way its going to pan out.

Happyman42

leggo wrote: »

Really man, you just come across as a combination of trying to hate the series because everyone else likes it to try and have a 'credible' opinion for the purpose of getting people's attention...and just being a troll. Your nitpicking in the post before this was dealt with a perfect explanation and, instead of just accepting it, you opted to nitpick further for the sake of it. Here's how that conversation JUST went:

"That isn't realistic enough. They don't explain how this happens."
"No, they do, you just didn't understand it. It happens because of this and this and this."
"...okay then, well I still want it to be MORE real!"

Do you see how ridiculous this is getting?

If people are able to come on thread and state over and over again that this is a 'true to life' depiction of gangster Dublin, I don't think it is ridiculous to test and discuss that on a Television forum.
I think the series has issues, in it's decision to put style over content, in it's responsibility to creditable and truthful writing.
I followed up my observations with a question about the credibility of Nidges position as a drug gang leader and how that is impacting the story.
If you wish, you can ignore that as I and others ignore stuff that doesn't interest them on the thread.

kippy

Happyman42 wrote: »

If people are able to come on thread and state over and over again that this is a 'true to life' depiction of gangster Dublin, I don't think it is ridiculous to test and discuss that on a Television forum.
I think the series has issues, in it's decision to put style over content, in it's responsibility to creditable and truthful writing.
I followed up my observations with a question about the credibility of Nidges position as a drug gang leader and how that is impacting the story.
If you wish, you can ignore that as I and others ignore stuff that doesn't interest them on the thread.

Of course it's not "true to life" - that would be exceptionally boring.

Happyman42

Happyman42 wrote: »

If people are able to come on thread and state over and over again that this is a 'true to life' depiction of gangster Dublin, I don't think it is ridiculous to test and discuss that on a Television forum.
I think the series has issues, in it's decision to put style over content, in it's responsibility to creditable and truthful writing.
I followed up my observations with a question about the credibility of Nidges position as a drug gang leader and how that is impacting the story.
If you wish, you can ignore that as I and others ignore stuff that doesn't interest them on the thread.

So is it just the Irish made series your picking holes in or do you actually critique other non Irish shows? After all you claim to be a tv critic.

Imhof Tank

Happyman42 wrote: »

people are able to come on thread and state over and over again that this is a 'true to life' depiction of gangster Dublin.

I havent seen much of that. Can you post some examples of what you are referring to?

I dont get how you equate "truthfulness" with validity. 99% of all film and tv drama is total fiction, a lot of it deliberately fantastical.

Would you criticise No Country for Old Men for example for holes in the plot or accuse it of style over substance?

nice1franko

Happyman, it's a drama not a documentary.

Happyman42

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I havent seen much of that. Can you post some examples of what you are referring to?

There is plenty of reference to 'this is what they are like' etc on the thread.

I dont get how you equate "truthfulness" with validity. 99% of all film and tv drama is total fiction, a lot of it deliberately fantastical.

The point is and always has been about the 'responsibility' of a writer. I'm ignoring fantasy writing, as that is a different genre where viewers suspend their disbelief in a totally different way.
Yes, true life is boring, yes, you have a dramatic licence but inherent in that is reponsibility, to stay true to the characters and the story. It's an unwritten contract between writer and viewer in all serious drama imo.
Are these writers being responsible to their characters, story and viewers? I don't think so, there are many instances that I and others have raised where this is a problem.
I find it interesting that this ' unwritten contract' (between writer and viewer) is so easily broken in the uber cool gansta genre.

Would you criticise No Country for Old Men for example for holes in the plot or accuse it of style over substance?

Adaptions of novels are always difficult and no, I didn't think that film served the book's point of view. As a stand alone film I don't think it fell into the pitfalls above. There is nothing wrong with a stylish telling of a story, but when the story suffers because of slavish indulgence of style then you are in dangerous waters.
I hope that makes some sense.

leggo

Happyman42 wrote: »

If people are able to come on thread and state over and over again that this is a 'true to life' depiction of gangster Dublin, I don't think it is ridiculous to test and discuss that on a Television forum.
I think the series has issues, in it's decision to put style over content, in it's responsibility to creditable and truthful writing.
I followed up my observations with a question about the credibility of Nidges position as a drug gang leader and how that is impacting the story.
If you wish, you can ignore that as I and others ignore stuff that doesn't interest them on the thread.

It doesn't have a responsibility to be truthful, though. Its only responsibility is to be a good television show. That's it.

And people who deal with these kind of people, day to day, have come out and said that, unfortunately, it is a relatively accurate representation of the type of stuff that happens day-to-day here.

If that's not enough for you, despite the series being written before anything ever happened, it actually is representing an ongoing feud between the IRA and gangland elements in Dublin that's happening as we speak. Life imitating art, if ever I've seen it. So when it almost accurately predicts something that later ACTUALLY happened while the show was airing...how much more realistic do you want it to be, exactly?

The funny thing is, I actually do think the show has some small issues that it could work on (some of the non-lead casting - such as Donna, for example - has been appalling and it takes you out of the suspension of disbelief; it tends to veer into Fair City-style melodrama at times, before pulling you back with something dark and harrowing; it also may not translate well overseas, which hinders the potential comparisons to legendary shows like The Sopranos/The Wire that it may well have been capable of earning). But in your own attempt to give it a credible critique, you've actually undermined your own credibility by failing to pick up on these ACTUAL issues, and instead focused on the most pedantic of them that ISN'T actually relevant.

Imhof Tank

Happyman42 wrote: »

There is plenty of reference to 'this is what they are like' etc on the thread.

I hope that makes some sense.

No it doesnt make any sense. And failure to post actual examples of posters claiming "this is what real life is like" duly noted also.

Happyman42

leggo wrote: »

It doesn't have a responsibility to be truthful, though. Its only responsibility is to be a good television show. That's it.

And people who deal with these kind of people, day to day, have come out and said that, unfortunately, it is a relatively accurate representation of the type of stuff that happens day-to-day here.

If that's not enough for you, despite the series being written before anything ever happened, it actually is representing an ongoing feud between the IRA and gangland elements in Dublin that's happening as we speak. Life imitating art, if ever I've seen it. So when it almost accurately predicts something that later ACTUALLY happened while the show was airing...how much more realistic do you want it to be, exactly?

I think you are wrong here, although it's besides the point. There has been ongoing feuding between drug gangs and the Real and Continuity IRA for a number of years.

it also may not translate well overseas, which hinders the potential comparisons to legendary shows like The Sopranos/The Wire that it may well have been capable of earning).

It is interesting you mention that. I remember the writer of The Butcher Boy talking about how Warner Brothers where insisting on subtitling his film for the American market, his point was (and I'm paraphrasing him now) 'If the writing was good enough there should be no need to explain, after all, they didn't subtitle the Godfather or Goodfellas for over here, did they?'
Good writing can travel the world, unexplained.

bullvine

Can you not just respect it for what it is, its arguably the best show ever on RTE. The only thing better than it, is Paths to Freedom in my opinion.

leggo

Nah sorry but you look at the similarities of the funeral of Alan Ryan and the ceremony in last week's show. You also look at how the RA are looking to end the feud following the shooting of Eamonn Dunne and how that was echoed in last night's show. These stories are relatively fresh regardless of the feud (which is more a case of months than years). And both were written before either event transpired (last night's episode were Dano was told to back off happened on the same week that the latter emerged; but was written and filmed months prior).

You can't deny that, not only is that credible, it's incredible foresight on the writers' part. I'd almost believe they'd have to have some kind of connections in the criminal underworld to be able to write that accurately. How much more can you ask for? Or are you still getting hung up on the fact that screen actors tend to often be attractive, whether they're playing gangsters or not?

I agree completely that great writing travels. That's my point: that while this series might be great for us, it mightn't travel. I don't think this would make a person living in Baltimore relate to our life as The Wire did for us. But that's an actual valid discussion we can have. So, again, if you want to focus on the relevant rather than the pedantic...I'd be happy to engage you. But just taking the opposite argument to everyone for the sake of it is only serving to ruin a good thread.

Happyman42

Imhof Tank wrote: »

No it doesnt make any sense. And failure to post actual examples of posters claiming "this is what real life is like" duly noted also.

Here's two from a page plucked at random.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82084668&postcount=709

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82084860&postcount=711

there are also others on that page and elsewhere.

The show also claims it for itself. I don't deny that it isn't true to life in some aspects, my point is that it plays with that in a way that is dangerous and irresponsible and is driven by another agenda.
You can call that what you want, my point is that it isn't good writing.

Happyman42

leggo wrote: »

Nah sorry but you look at the similarities of the funeral of Alan Ryan and the ceremony in last week's show. You also look at how the RA are looking to end the feud following the shooting of Eamonn Dunne and how that was echoed in last night's show. These stories are relatively fresh regardless of the feud (which is more a case of months than years). And both were written before either event transpired (last night's episode were Dano was told to back off happened on the same week that the latter emerged; but was written and filmed months prior).

You can't deny that, not only is that credible, it's incredible foresight on the writers' part. I'd almost believe they'd have to have some kind of connections in the criminal underworld to be able to write that accurately. How much more can you ask for? Or are you still getting hung up on the fact that screen actors tend to often be attractive, whether they're playing gangsters or not?

Whatever, I don't think it's a great leap to write what they did considering what has been going on in the crimminal world this last few years. How many have been 'whacked' or 'clipped' now in the last ten years?

I agree completely that great writing travels. That's my point: that while this series might be great for us, it mightn't travel. I don't think this would make a person living in Baltimore relate to our life as The Wire did for us. But that's an actual valid discussion we can have. So, again, if you want to focus on the relevant rather than the pedantic...I'd be happy to engage you. But just taking the opposite argument to everyone for the sake of it is only serving to ruin a good thread.

I'm interested in knowing why you don't think it would travel well?

Big Game

Happyman42 wrote: »

Here's two from a page plucked at random.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82084668&postcount=709

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82084860&postcount=711

there are also others on that page and elsewhere.

The show also claims it for itself. I don't deny that it isn't true to life in some aspects, my point is that it plays with that in a way that is dangerous and irresponsible and is driven by another agenda.
You can call that what you want, my point is that it isn't good writing.

It would seem to me that you have a very narrow definion of what constitutes good wrting.

I could very easily construct the exact same arguments you're consistently using about pretty much any great drama. Take breaking bad for example. Doesn't make it bad writing.

In fact as regards realism, Love/Hate is practically a documentary in comparison to the final season of The Wire......

FloatingVoter

In regards to exporting the show, it could be done - people are watching The Killing and the original Wallander over here and in the UK despite the language barrier.
The only problem would be the significantly weaker first season (yes, Darren, I'm looking at you) - I know lots of people who gave up halfway through that and are only drifting back now.
An American reboot would probably be the dream option for the producers - along the lines of The Office.

themadchef

Happyman, It's da bleedin telly wot...

Giving joy to the vast majority of people.

It's not high brow, high anything. It's a bit of craic.

Maybe ya dont like salt on yer chips, most people do. Fancy a bit of ice in yer coke? Yup, most people do.

You no likey but the majority of people are bah da dahhh da dahhhh lovin it.