Love/Hate [** Spoilers **]

leggo

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm interested in knowing why you don't think it would travel well?

It's too introverted in terms of references, slang etc, makes too many jumps and assumptions that Irish fans would be able to follow, but American fans mightn't. And the other issues (casting & slight melodrama) may hinder audiences 'going with it', so to speak. You have faith in the earlier episodes of The Wire, for example, where the plot is yet to unravel, because of the strength of the actor's performance in making you like them and enjoy watching them. An Irish person is more inclined to forgive such errors because we can relate to a lot of the characters either personally or through people we've met/know.

But who knows? I'm still surprised that Moone Boy was a success on Sky while being so 'Oirish'. So I'd be interested to see how it would be received all the same.

ViveLaVie

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't deny that it isn't true to life in some aspects, my point is that it plays with that in a way that is dangerous and irresponsible and is driven by another agenda.
You can call that what you want, my point is that it isn't good writing.

Can you elaborate on what you mean? How is it dangerous and irresponsible to play with... The true to life aspects of the show, as you put it?
Good writing often does play with reality, in order to criticise and examine it.

Happyman42

Big Game wrote: »

I could very easily construct the exact same arguments you're consistently using about pretty much any great drama. Take breaking bad for example. Doesn't make it bad writing.

Work away, on the relevant threads.
My definition of good writing is not in least 'narrow', I enjoy all types of stuff and praise it. Some parts of this are badly written, I don't understand the fear of discussing them.

leggo wrote: »

It's too introverted in terms of references, slang etc, makes too many jumps and assumptions that Irish fans would be able to follow, but American fans mightn't. And the other issues (casting & slight melodrama) may hinder audiences 'going with it', so to speak. You have faith in the earlier episodes of The Wire, for example, where the plot is yet to unravel, because of the strength of the actor's performance in making you like them and enjoy watching them. An Irish person is more inclined to forgive such errors because we can relate to a lot of the characters either personally or through people we've met/know.

I don't think you need to 'know' a type to understand and emphatise or dislike a character. Again, it's down to the quality of the creation.
I think this series would travel, however I think there would be issues with it's impact because of the flaws, flaws that could so easily have been avoided and ironed out.

el diablo

kippy wrote: »

As a matter of interest have you watched, and what are your opinions of The Wire?

Don't be giving this guy credibility by asking for his opinions of other TV shows.

Happyman42

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Can you elaborate on what you mean? How is it dangerous and irresponsible to play with... The true to life aspects of the show, as you put it?
Good writing often does play with reality, in order to criticise and examine it.

I think writers have a responsibility to their audiences to truthfully portray characters in their story's.
The level of danger inherent in not doing that is relative to how important you think writing is, I suppose. I happen to think it is very important and if you cheapen that for quick thrills or because you are simply following a fashion, and that type of writing then becomes the norm or what is expected or the benchmark, then you have devalued writing itself as an art. Saying it is just TV or an entertaiment is not a good enough excuse imo nor is saying that it has something to do with the budget.
HBO and it's imitators have shown just how good a TV series can be by putting the emphasis where it should be....on the quality of the writing.
It has always been my point that the commissioning editors have failed most here, by not doing their jobs properly and sending the writer back to the drawing board where required. The flaws could so easily have been ironed out by what is obviously a talented writer.

AnonoBoy

leggo wrote: »

It's too introverted in terms of references, slang etc, makes too many jumps and assumptions that Irish fans would be able to follow, but American fans mightn't.

I don't agree with that. The slang in shows like The Wire is never set down and explained, you just pick it up as you go along. I think the central criminal gang vs. cops and other gangs idea is one that's easy to get.

And interestingly enough HULU have already bought it - http://www.iftn.ie/news/?act1=record&only=1&aid=73&rid=4285642&tpl=archnews&force=1

Mardy Bum

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I don't agree with that. The slang in shows like The Wire is never set down and explained, you just pick it up as you go along. I think the central criminal gang vs. cops and other gangs is one that's easy to get.

And interestingly enough HULU have already bought it - http://www.iftn.ie/news/?act1=record&only=1&aid=73&rid=4285642&tpl=archnews&force=1

Exactly. Slang makes the show authentic. There has been too much pandering to the average viewer in television.

listermint

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I don't agree with that. The slang in shows like The Wire is never set down and explained, you just pick it up as you go along. I think the central criminal gang vs. cops and other gangs idea is one that's easy to get.

And interestingly enough HULU have already bought it - http://www.iftn.ie/news/?act1=record&only=1&aid=73&rid=4285642&tpl=archnews&force=1

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Exactly. Slang makes the show authentic. There has been too much pandering to the average viewer in television.

I hope they fair well, and tbh i think they will Its an ideal time to release them on HULU as they have their winter break on the blockbusters so there is an opening there for another gritty drama.

Foxhound38

I hope it fairs well - it's an excellent drama, well up there with the Wire. I just hope international audiences can get themselves through the first season, which wasn't great. The leap in quality between the first season and the excellent second season is startling

AnonoBoy

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I hope it fairs well - it's an excellent drama, well up there with the Wire.

It's enjoyable but it's not that good.

leggo

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I don't agree with that. The slang in shows like The Wire is never set down and explained, you just pick it up as you go along. I think the central criminal gang vs. cops and other gangs idea is one that's easy to get.

And interestingly enough HULU have already bought it - http://www.iftn.ie/news/?act1=record&only=1&aid=73&rid=4285642&tpl=archnews&force=1

I know, if you read the next part of the quote that you didn't include, I pointed out how you go along with not understanding - and even learn - because every element is in place to keep you hooked. However if it is to veer into Fair City territory on occasion with poor role character acting, Aldi brand covers of pop tracks in the background etc, do you think people would be bothered? That's the point. Why try and break the language barrier when you're given Donna, when you can watch HBO and BBC dramas instead? Whereas we're more inclined to like it because we understand it and it's homegrown.

I saw that Hulu picked it up, I hope it does travel well in spite of my own reservations. It'd be great to see Irish drama get some international acclaim.

Big Game

Happyman42 wrote: »

Work away, on the relevant threads.

.

Why would I bother when I don't have the same hang ups around what I consider good writing that you seem to judging by your consistent peddling of the same issues over authenticity.

I don't feel the need to go onto the breaking bad thread to pick holes in the writing because of some of the totally outlandish twists because I can still enjoy it as a well written work of fiction despite it being littered with things that are totally unrealistic.

AnonoBoy

leggo wrote: »

However if it is to veer into Fair City territory on occasion with poor role character acting, Aldi brand covers of pop tracks in the background etc, do you think people would be bothered? That's the point. Why try and break the language barrier when you're given Donna, when you can watch HBO and BBC dramas instead? Whereas we're more inclined to like it because we understand it and it's homegrown.

I think you're being a bit harsh on it there. Also we're not hearing Aldi brand covers of pop songs on the soundtrack here - although they might not have all the same songs in other territories.

listermint

AnonoBoy wrote: »

It's enjoyable but it's not that good.

Im enjoying to the same level i enjoyed the wire. tbh.

Happyman42

leggo wrote: »

It'd be great to see Irish drama get some international acclaim.

Irish 'drama' punches way above it's weight, always has, and continues to garner acclaim internationally. Most recently Gary Hynes and Druid winning major awards for productions of the work of Tom Murphy.
Whether TV will attract the same calibre of writer is not looking like a very hopeful scenario atm, from talking to writers that I know, producers like RTE are not neccesarily looking for the best, they are looking for what will appeal to the widest audience.
HBO seemed to find a model that worked, good uncompromising writing garnering huge viewership. Whether our lot have the same balls remains to be seen.

Happyman42

Big Game wrote: »

Why would I bother when I don't have the same hang ups around what I consider good writing that you seem to judging by your consistent peddling of the same issues over authenticity.

I don't feel the need to go onto the breaking bad thread to pick holes in the writing because of some of the totally outlandish twists because I can still enjoy it as a well written work of fiction despite it being littered with things that are totally unrealistic.

Fair enough, you don't have 'hang-ups', enjoy.

ViveLaVie

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think writers have a responsibility to their audiences to truthfully portray characters in their story's.
The level of danger inherent in not doing that is relative to how important you think writing is, I suppose. I happen to think it is very important and if you cheapen that for quick thrills or because you are simply following a fashion, and that type of writing then becomes the norm or what is expected or the benchmark, then you have devalued writing itself as an art. Saying it is just TV or an entertaiment is not a good enough excuse imo nor is saying that it has something to do with the budget.
HBO and it's imitators have shown just how good a TV series can be by putting the emphasis where it should be....on the quality of the writing.
It has always been my point that the commissioning editors have failed most here, by not doing their jobs properly and sending the writer back to the drawing board where required. The flaws could so easily have been ironed out by what is obviously a talented writer.

What lack of truthfulness are you criticising here? The storyline or characterisation?

Re HBO they have far more funding money available and whatever you may try to argue, budget is hugely important in making something authentic and realistic.

dzer2

Happyman you are acting like a spoilt child who didnt get the editing or directing role enjoy it for what it is and stop knocking the only good thing in this sh1te hole of a country at the moment

Big Game

Happyman42 wrote: »

Fair enough, you don't have 'hang-ups', enjoy.

Oh, I have a few, don't we all?

I just don't have the same ones you seem to....

Steel Dog

Love/Hate Finale Trailer

Imhof Tank

Happyman42 wrote: »

RTE are not neccesarily looking for the best, they are looking for what will appeal to the widest audience.
.

This is what all this is really about Happyman, isnt that right.

You see RTE pandering to the masses, like the fans on this thread, when they should be catering for the higher brow insider types you see yourself as.

leggo

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I think you're being a bit harsh on it there. Also we're not hearing Aldi brand covers of pop songs on the soundtrack here - although they might not have all the same songs in other territories.

They had a very cheap knock-off of 'Moves Like Jagger' on it a few weeks ago during Siobhan's 21st. In fact that entire scene looked very cheap altogether, you'd see better shot club scenes in Tallafornia. Sure even the montage of all of them partying with hookers that opened the show earlier in the series was in a different league. So they CAN do it, they just sometimes...don't.

I love the show, but small niggling bits like that take me out of the moment. And to compare it against the HBO-standard shows that it's trying to be, that's why I fear it may not travel as well as it could (and should, when you look at the show's better moments). You may argue saying, "They're low budget/can't afford the designer soundtrack etc", but that's a lazy, directorial decision then. Highlight the positives and don't settle for second rate: change the song to a generic house track and it achieves the same end without highlighting the show's lack of budget. If you can't re-cast Donna's part, shoot and re-shoot each scene until her performance is up to standard, give her better direction etc. There's always more than one way to skin a cat and letting amateurish bits like this make the final edit just shows their focus is elsewhere or they're a bit lazy about certain aspects.

Like I said, though, I'd love to be proven wrong by the show's success though. People do love Irish material so maybe they'd be willing to forgive the occasional negative.

Imhof Tank wrote: »

This is what all this is really about Happyman, isnt that right.

You see RTE pandering to the masses, like the fans on this thread, when they should be catering for the higher brow insider types you see yourself as.

dzer2 wrote: »

Happyman you are acting like a spoilt child who didnt get the editing or directing role enjoy it for what it is and stop knocking the only good thing in this sh1te hole of a country at the moment

I think you're both giving him too much credit here considering him an insider. As I said earlier, the credibility he's looking to achieve is undermined by his inability to identify actual glaring slights that the show suffers from. Not to get too personal, but I'd say his criticisms are more of the film/TV student standard and nothing more.

thiarfearr

leggo wrote: »

I love the show, but small niggling bits like that take me out of the moment.

There are certain little things that annoy me too that I do think could have been done better, but in fairness I'd say the budget is tight and rte have said they won't increase it despite the shows success. One of the producers have said its 'one of the tightest budgets she's ever worked on'.

AnonoBoy

leggo wrote: »

They had a very cheap knock-off of 'Moves Like Jagger' on it a few weeks ago during Siobhan's 21st.

Didn't notice that myself. I would have thought that considering RTE have a blanket agreement that covers a huge amount of music that they'd be using original tracks for the Irish screening at least. When it's broadcast in the US it might need some music changed based on what they can't afford to buy the rights for.

But then again they might have just decided to use a lot of the cheaper options from the start. I wouldn't be too up on some of the music so wouldn't notice if it's a knock-off or not.

Neeson

How was it a knock-off? It sounded alright at the time to me.

leggo

Cover bands do their version of certain songs, generally for shops who can't afford the actual versions. They used a knock-off there, 100%, I'm a DJ and have heard that song so much that I've grown to hate it...so I spotted it straight away. It was also joked about a lot on Twitter that night IIRC. It's little things like that that show the show up for lack of budget. And when there are a million other generic dance tracks that they could've been used instead at the same cost, then it just shows a lapse in standards on their part.

The Fair City comparisons are so easy to make. If I was them, I'd do whatever I could to avoid them, because that's exactly why people have grown to admire the show.

Happyman42

ViveLaVie wrote: »

What lack of truthfulness are you criticising here? The storyline or characterisation?

Both.
I have raised all of this before, the one dimensional characterisation of Dano. He is a key character but the writers/producers have decided to protray him in a way they cynically know will resonate with those with pre-concieved ideas. Drug dealers can be sexy and complex but RA men can't. The unwritten rule in Donnybrook it seems if recent output is to be believed, that rule has applied in a lot of RTE's other content.
As said, Darren is increasingly running about as if he is in the wrong film. That is not an accident, it is the result of bad writing and acting imo. The over-riding concern seemed to be to have a sexy lead and so the truthfulness of the character was sarcrificed, they have nowhere credible for him to go, only an explosion of mindless violence.
The female cast are also erratically drawn and are created to fit - and are routinely sarcrificed - to the storyline. E.G. Siobhan instigating the sex between her and Darren.
Add to that all the other instances that don't ring true and you have a series that in general is untrue. Entertaining maybe but untruthful nonetheless.
I think that would be spotted by most non local viewers.

Re HBO they have far more funding money available and whatever you may try to argue, budget is hugely important in making something authentic and realistic.

You are missing my point, it's not about how realistic it is, the producton values are high here, it is just a pity the writing wasn't and maybe the motives are suspect too.

AnonoBoy

leggo wrote: »

It's little things like that that show the show up for lack of budget.

The thing is though it wouldn't have cost them extra to use the original version of the song when broadcasting in Ireland. It only becomes a cost issue when they're broadcasting outside of RTE's territories or releasing it on DVD.

leggo

I dunno the exact terms of their agreement with IMRO is tbh (I know the BBC can use a lot of licenced music at no cost but dunno about RTÉ) but that's what it was, trust me. Like I said, it was widely noticed on the night.

wow sierra

lads - and I say lads cos we ladies don't get hung up on this geeky crap:(

Lads - can we have two threads on this.

One for Love Hate fans who want to discuss it on an average, down to earth, man/woman of the street level. Those of us who want to chat about the characters, wonder what might happen next, admire how similar it is to real life, enjoy it as the excellent entertainment it is etc etc. And of course comment on the odd minor flaw we don't like.

And one for the self important, sad, obsessed people. Those who want to discect every word, phrase, accent, scene, eyebrow movement etc etc etc to the nth degree as if they are doing a College thesis on it.

Fine HappyMan and others - if that's what ye want. But please stop ****ing up this thread for the rest of us.

And by the way - even at a College thesis level I reckon most of Happyman says doesn't hold up - but I will save my comments for the new thread I hope he sets up.