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Love/Hate [** Spoilers **]

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    #1472
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    Actually this episode borrowed heavily from "irreversable" not breaking bad. Get your facts right.

    The first episode of Breaking Bad was constucted exactly the same way. I haven't seen the other series you mentioned.


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    #1473
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,926 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Yes, yet another stereotype, 'the crim with a heart of gold'. Tired and lazy. I really don't know if this actor can act or not, but his characterisation makes it impossible for anybody to create a credible character. That's the writers fault. Prehaps they should take a closer look at the series they ape,(Breaking Bad, Sopranos) and look at creating real conflicts and self deception within the characters they create.
    To blatantly lift the dramatic construct of starting at the end and flashing back to how they arrived at that point from Breaking Bad was a bit cringeworthy and only served to make them look, so sadly inferior to brilliant writing.

    I dont see it as the crim with the heart of gold, more so a lad that has been seduced into crime and is heavily loyal.

    There is nothing left field about a heavily loyal lad willing to do anything 'for the lads' Thats how gangs operate.


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    #1474
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,463 ✭✭✭✭cson


    If they want it to be credible then there's only one way Dazzlers character can go; deeper and deeper into the mire of the underworld until there's no redeeming traits in him. Something similar to what Boardwalk have done with Nucky.


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    #1475
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 21,005 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The first episode of Breaking Bad was constucted exactly the same way. I haven't seen the other series you mentioned.
    so was pulp fiction....how can you say he ripped off breaking bad, when such devices were around for over 20 years?


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    #1476
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 21,005 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Neeson wrote: »
    The real IRA man is just a normal man, like other people. Not some hard-ass.
    read the papers ....he was a mash of several characters based on reality


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    #1477
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Discussion about RTE's penchant for stereotyping is entirely valid imo. Motivation and characterisation are valid topics in a discussion about drama...no? Or maybe I just wandered into an RTE love-in thread?

    It's not an RTE production, it's produced by an Octagon Films. But sure, don't let that stop your RTE rants.


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    #1478
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    It's not an RTE production, it's produced by an Octagon Films. But sure, don't let that stop your RTE rants.

    Commissioned by RTE. Not bought in an open market place...'commissioned'. There is a difference, in terms of independence. And it has all the hallmarks of an RTE commission.
    And please...rant? Stop being so pathetically defensive, we are having a rational discussion, I'm not afraid of that, why are you?


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    #1479
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    so was pulp fiction....how can you say he ripped off breaking bad, when such devices were around for over 20 years?

    And?
    My reference was to superior writing, which Breaking Bad is a recent example of, as is The Sopranos and Pulp Fiction. Do you want me to list all other programmes that used that dramatic device? :rolleyes:
    Stop attacking me and address the actual points raised.


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    #1480
    joydivision
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 735 ✭✭✭joydivision


    So they showed the ending at the start big deal . They were in a pub in breaking bad and the sopranos and goodfellas . Should there be no pub scenes now .
    Ever see the south park episode called simpsons did it ?
    Would you rather a series only got comissioned when it came up with a ground breaking chronological order ?
    I watched a film the other night and it started at the start and finished at the end . It was such a rip off of goodfellas.


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    #1481
    RoryMac
    Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Yes, yet another stereotype, 'the crim with a heart of gold'. Tired and lazy. I really don't know if this actor can act or not, but his characterisation makes it impossible for anybody to create a credible character. That's the writers fault. Prehaps they should take a closer look at the series they ape,(Breaking Bad, Sopranos) and look at creating real conflicts and self deception within the characters they create.
    To blatantly lift the dramatic construct of starting at the end and flashing back to how they arrived at that point from Breaking Bad was a bit cringeworthy and only served to make them look, so sadly inferior to brilliant writing.

    I think you're being a little unfair in comparing Love/Hate to 2 of the best TV dramas ever, I would agree with some of your criticisms of Love/Hate but I think it needs to be taken into account that each season of Love/Hate has been produced not knowing if there will be a future so they tend to barrel through at pace and the story and character development suffers. I think think if RTE were to sign it up for 2 - 3 seasons in advance(not going to happen) I think you would see a more rounded series.

    Love/Hate has it's flaws but I feel they are greatly out-weighed by it's pluses


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    #1482
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Most of the young lads that get into gangs probably are like Darren if truth be told and are sucked in by the feeling of importance and power. His character is a good one if his casting wasn't.

    He looked as if he was going to burst out laughing at times the other night when he should have been serious. Also alot of people who tuned in were the same catchment as misfits so having seen his persona on that they had further reason not take to him.

    In the opening scenes in episode 1-series 1 the first two characters to appear on screen were played by Sheehan and Chris Newman and i think that finished people with Love/Hate immediately. You just dont see them as villain type characters enough to take the show seriously.

    I do agree with the idea of the character of Darren but i think they needed to get a stronger character who is everybit as convincing as a good guy as he is a bad guy. It didnt even need to be a household name. They could have got an unknown, just as long as he could display the two personalities. This show wasnt for Sheehan. I do think someone could have brought more dimension to Darren's character.

    I think where L/H severely lacks in continuity it makes up for in writing. Its absolutely brilliant. Top notch to be honest. The other night pulled no punches. It took alot of people out of their comfort zone and sparked alot of debate of whether scenes were too much to show this despite it being aired between half 9 and half 10.

    I have to say i found scenes of Git getting his head kicked in and the aftermath with him struggling for life were absolutely shocking. It made me really realise the insanity of violence. If we think the people portrayed on this show are bad (and at times and i have to say i can find them chilling), then can you imagine the level of actual psychos that walk amongst us in gangs down in Limerick, Cork, Dublin or even in the smaller towns?

    Films and TV Programs over the years have romanticised Violence with good old fashioned fisty cuff fights but this sadly portrayed the actual danger of the society we live in today. A society where people fight dirty and the consequences of getting into a row with the wrong people could be a grave mistake.


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    #1483
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Scroll back there and have a look at some of the things that have been thrown at those who have criticisms of this series and tell me who is being rational?
    This series is a good effort but it is flawed, quite seriously in places and in characterisation.


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    #1484
    D-FENS
    Registered Users Posts: 2,143 ✭✭✭D-FENS


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Yes, yet another stereotype, 'the crim with a heart of gold'. Tired and lazy. I really don't know if this actor can act or not, but his characterisation makes it impossible for anybody to create a credible character. That's the writers fault. Prehaps they should take a closer look at the series they ape,(Breaking Bad, Sopranos) and look at creating real conflicts and self deception within the characters they create.
    To blatantly lift the dramatic construct of starting at the end and flashing back to how they arrived at that point from Breaking Bad was a bit cringeworthy and only served to make them look, so sadly inferior to brilliant writing.

    I think you’re being over critical in general.

    Breaking Bad is my favourite drama ever for a number of reasons but they are far from the first show to use the nonlinear narrative technique, it is around for nearly a century.

    Robert Sheehan, the actor who plays Darren may well be questionably cast here but he is a decent actor, catch him in Red Riding or Misfits if you get the chance, two very different characters to Darren both played brilliantly,

    I would say that Love/Hate does not devote enough time to individual character development, certainly nothing compared to the shows you mentioned but would Jesse Pinkman not be “a crim with a heart of gold”? There was also more stereotypes in the Sopranos than Fat Tony’s gang in the Simpsons.
    Sure, some of the characters became hugely developed but how long did the writers have to do that, 60/70 episodes? Sunday was Love/Hate’s 11th…

    This show is a big step in the right direction for drama in this country.


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    #1485
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    I like it, you just have to remember it's make believe not a documentary on drug gangs in ireland! It's about the best thing rte have churned out in a very long time (faint praise, but praise nonetheless)
    However i'm glad the IRA guy was killed in episode one, i think i'd have had to stop watching if he was a regular character - he was a pure fair city pantomine villian, and ham acted is going easy on it!


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    #1486
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Scroll back there and have a look at some of the things that have been thrown at those who have criticisms of this series and tell me who is being rational?
    This series is a good effort but it is flawed, quite seriously in places and in characterisation.

    More in the production qualities i think. The casting of Sheehan aside i find the rest of them totally convincing. Nidge and Fran have every bit as much the ability to put hairs standing on the back of your neck as they do in making the audience laugh. TVL (Nidge) in particular has been the real star of this show. I hope he gets a well deserved huge break after his stint in this ends.

    In order for this show to conclude whenever it should do so, I think the writers need to bring things around full circle with a whole new generation of criminals coming through the ranks having seen the predecessors meet their untimely demise and gained nothing from the experience only bitterness and a need for vengeance.


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    #1487
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    D-FENS wrote: »
    I think you’re being over critical in general.

    Breaking Bad is my favourite drama ever for a number of reasons but they are far from the first show to use the nonlinear narrative technique, it is around for nearly a century.

    I didn't say it was, my point was that the obvious aping of series like Breaking Bad showed up just how lacking this series was in terms of writing specifically.
    Robert Sheehan, the actor who plays Darren may well be questionably cast here but he is a decent actor, catch him in Red Riding or Misfits if you get the chance, two very different characters to Darren both played brilliantly,
    I don't know his other work, but he is most definately wrong here that maybe because the writing of his character is deficient.
    I would say that Love/Hate does not devote enough time to individual character development, certainly nothing compared to the shows you mentioned but would Jesse Pinkman not be “a crim with a heart of gold”?
    Totally agree with the character development point, this is were I would be critical of the commissioners of this series. They should have the expertise and knowledge to achieve this.
    There was also more stereotypes in the Sopranos than Fat Tony’s gang in the Simpsons.
    Sure, some of the characters became hugely developed but how long did the writers have to do that, 60/70 episodes? Sunday was Love/Hate’s 11th…
    Again I agree. But my point would be, the commissioners should have seen to it that they didn't bite off more than they could chew. There is no doubt in my mind that RTE have a role to play in the development of the TV drama and Film industry in this country, as mentors and educators. Lasting quality over style everyday of the week. That is not to say that style isn't important, it is. It's just that veracity and character has been sarcrificed, needlessly, in this series.
    This show is a big step in the right direction for drama in this country.
    I agree, but it could easily (with intelligence) have been much bigger.


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    #1488
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 21,005 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And?
    My reference was to superior writing, which Breaking Bad is a recent example of, as is The Sopranos and Pulp Fiction. Do you want me to list all other programmes that used that dramatic device? :rolleyes:
    Stop attacking me and address the actual points raised.
    superior budget


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    #1489
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    D-FENS wrote: »
    Robert Sheehan, the actor who plays Darren may well be questionably cast here but he is a decent actor, catch him in Red Riding or Misfits if you get the chance, two very different characters to Darren both played brilliantly,

    I don't really see the problem with the casting of Sheehan. Yea he's softly spoken and good looking, that doesn't mean he can't pull a trigger ffs. And i have to agree with you he was outstanding in misfits, the show went completely downhill without him.


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    #1490
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I don't really see the problem with the casting of Sheehan. Yea he's softly spoken and good looking, that doesn't mean he can't pull a trigger ffs. And i have to agree with you he was outstanding in misfits, the show went completely downhill without him.

    He is not right for this show in my opinion. Good actor overall but fish out of water in this and some poor acting the other night.

    Does anyone know how many auditioned for each of the characters?


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    #1491
    hardCopy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I didn't say it was, my point was that the obvious aping of series like Breaking Bad showed up just how lacking this series was in terms of writing specifically.


    Just one point, I really don't see why you're convinced that was from Breaking Bad, the idea of starting an episode at the end has probably been used by most long running TV shows for years, it's a staple plot device. Breaking Bad didn't invent it, they didn't even make it famous.


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    #1492
    D-FENS
    Registered Users Posts: 2,143 ✭✭✭D-FENS


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I didn't say it was, my point was that the obvious aping of series like Breaking Bad showed up just how lacking this series was in terms of writing specifically.

    Fair enough, but your point was badly worded so ;)


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    #1493
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    D-FENS wrote: »
    Fair enough, but your point was badly worded so ;)

    That's why good writers should be cherished. :D


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    #1494
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    superior budget

    I know how much it costs to produce something as stylish as this and it is part of my point, that the budget was wrongly allocated, the writing was sarcrificed to the image, much more should have been spent on the writing...the bedrock of any drama.


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    #1495
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 21,005 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I know how much it costs to produce something as stylish as this and it is part of my point, that the budget was wrongly allocated, the writing was sarcrificed to the image, much more should have been spent on the writing...the bedrock of any drama.
    and then what you complain about? That it's not stylish enough?


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    #1496
    DeepBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 3,673 ✭✭✭DeepBlue


    Thank God (and boards) for the "Add user to ignore list" function. :pac:

    The last third of Sunday night's show was the best this show has ever been imo. Totally gripping and well acted by all and a great set up to the season.

    Nidge's character is done very well, affable and reasonable on the surface but complete sociopath just under the skin. His faux sympathetic reaction to Siobhan's rape - "You've had a fright, but it's over now" told her everything she needed to know about him.


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    #1497
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    and then what you complain about? That it's not stylish enough?

    How much more time and resources do you think it would have taken to iron out the flaws in this if the will was there?
    The primary concern of a credible drama should be the writing. This production does not convince me that 'the writing' was the paramount concern.


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    #1498
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    themadchef wrote: »
    Joe Duffy will hot tommorrw with :

    Glorifying death and drugs and violence and the sex Joe...did see what she was doing to him on the settee!!!!!!!!!!!!!110110111:eek:

    LOL cant wait.
    There was something in one of today's papers, something about the rape... People complaining already?


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    #1499
    Q_ueeny
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Q_ueeny


    love this drama so much! I only got into in in the second last epsoide of season 2 so after that I got season 1 and 2 on dvd and watched them all and loved them , I have been looking forward to it coming back for a long time now , dont think I have been looking forward to TV like this in a very long time.

    I only watched season 1 and 2 again a few nights ago on a Love/Hate marathon so I feel Im in the thick of it at the moment it all be so fresh in my mind! lol

    Nidge (Tom Vaughan Lawlor) is such a brilliant actor , as said in a previous post , I saw an interview with him and it just goes to show what a great actor he is. His accent is very good and is def is the one you love to hate and while extremely dark and spineless brings some lols to the whole thing. Very funny the scene with him and Darren talking about him hopping up on Linda!! (Frans Wife)

    Im not too sure about Darren (Robert Sheehan) so far. In season 1 and 2 I liked the fact that he didnt really want to be involved and it showed (a little)his life outside crime and his aim was to have a nice life with Rosie (Ruth Negga) but now thats all gone and he has no one to love in his life as Rosie and his sister are gone. I do like the eye candy aspect tho :D

    Sunday night was explosive stuff , alot happened in the hour and I really enjoyed it. If thats what the first epsoide was like the next 5 are going to be epic.

    I have actually watched it 3 times since Sunday lol

    I feel like im wishing my days away but roll on next Sunday.


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    #1500
    leonidas83
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭leonidas83


    Barna77 wrote: »
    There was something in one of today's papers, something about the rape... People complaining already?

    yes 17 (8 emails, 9 calls)complaints out of an audience of nearly 1 million. Not bad imo


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    #1501
    Lapin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    ThisRegard wrote: »

    It's not for people who are affected by what they see on the show, it's for people who have been directly affected by the subject matter. For example some women may have been raped by people they know etc, have sat on it and seeing a show like this may bring it all back and they're provided with a helpline to deal with what happened to them.

    In that case helpline numbers should be issued after most news bulletins.


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