Stage 11 - Thursday, July 15 2010, Sisteron - Bourg-lès-Valence, 180 km

TinyExplosions

corkandproud wrote: »

Look, you can't condone that behaviour in a flat out sprint. Can you imagine wheat the other teams might try if it went unpunished, biggest bully wins.

Is it a case that you now need to create rules about racing lines in the last 50 metres and have a stewards enquiry along the lines of horse racing?

A lot of the riders on twitter are saying that it's quite a harsh punishment... for example, taking your front wheel out and beating someone about the head with it is only a 400CHF fine, but a keirin style bit of argy bargy (which both Renshaw and Dean have seen before/are used too from their track days) gets you kicked out from the race. I think maybe fine Renshaw, or DQ him from the stage, but removal from the race is OTT

on_the_nickel

Any quotes from Dean? I'd be interested in hearing what he thinks about it (team politics aside).

ednwireland

actually the more i think about it the harsher renshaws dq is, hit people with wheels 400ch fine

i bet julian dean would say i had renshaw and he wnet for me, i held a straight line didnt move (or something like that)

TinyExplosions

on_the_nickel wrote: »

Any quotes from Dean? I'd be interested in hearing what he thinks about it (team politics aside).

From what I saw on the coverage, he didn't seem too phased by it afterwards -there's nothing on Garmin's twitter saying anything about the situation, and I'd expect something if they were really aggrieved. I think Tyler has more to complain about than Dean

Trojan

on_the_nickel wrote: »

Any quotes from Dean? I'd be interested in hearing what he thinks about it (team politics aside).

Dean didn't have a harsh word for the HTC-Columbia rider, and summed up his thoughts on the incident after the stage by saying, "It's sprinting, no one crashed, that's the big thing."

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4903/Tour-de-France-Mark-Renshaw-ejected-from-race-on-heels-of-Cavendish-victory.aspx

ColSheehan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvE3cYsn5sc

Theres an interview with Dean there too saying "It was inappropriate behaviour, dangerous behaviour and if they had crashed there it would have caused some guys some serious damage" <-- Can't really say much here but from the video once Dean got next to Renshaw he started moving left as if to push him into the barrier, which Renshaw then tried to defend himself by headbutting him.. Would have been interesting if Dean had pushed Renshaw so much that he went into the barrier crashing and taking the whole peloton.. Maybe people would hate him more than Cav after the Haussler incident?

Then Dean was asked should Renshaw be taken from the tour for the behaviour he said "Yeah, its one solution"

Diarmuid

Just watched the end of the stage. Pretty poor behaviour by Renshaw. Farrar got screwed again, he had to check his speed twice. DQ is tough but not unwarranted.

RobFowl

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/07/05/sports/sports-news-briefs-astaing-victor-in-6th-tour-stage.html

buffalo

ColSheehan wrote: »

but from the video once Dean got next to Renshaw he started moving left as if to push him into the barrier, which Renshaw then tried to defend himself by headbutting him..

Has anyone got a video showing the sprint from above? From the video at http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/1040 I don't think that Dean is pushing to the left that much. I think Renshaw over-reacted - you can see how much he has to stretch his neck out to make contact with Dean, but I reckon an overhead angle would make their lines clearer.

ednwireland

buffalo wrote: »

Has anyone got a video showing the sprint from above? From the video at http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/1040 I don't think that Dean is pushing to the left that much. I think Renshaw over-reacted - you can see how much he has to stretch his neck out to make contact with Dean, but I reckon an overhead angle would make their lines clearer.

dean definitely squeezes renshaw and should have been fined and relegated as well cav got his points taken away for as much last year (you have to look before the headbutts) mind you renshaw looks over his shoulder and the blocks farrar (which is worse imo )

http://video.competitor.com/2010/07/cycling/velocenter-tdf-stage-11-highlight/

the extra show is worth warching
http://video.competitor.com/2010/07/cycling/velocenter-tdf-stage-11-extra/

Leroy42

Just watched the video of the indcident. Clearly Renshaw is WAAAYYY out of order on the headbutting, but to top that off once Cav has gone past he looks behind and sees another Garmin rider coming through and blatantly moves across to cut him off.

Each incident on their own may be harsh, and I know that the TdF stated it was because of the headbutting, but I'm sure this additional offence didn't exactly help his cause.

Cav is by far the best sprinter, the fastest outright speed, there is no need for Renshaw to get involved in any of this

buffalo

ednwireland wrote: »

dean definitely squeezes renshaw and should have been fined and relegated as well cav got his points taken away for as much last year (you have to look before the headbutts) mind you renshaw looks over his shoulder and the blocks farrar (which is worse imo )

http://video.competitor.com/2010/07/cycling/velocenter-tdf-stage-11-highlight/

That makes it much clearer, thanks for the link. I still think it was an over-reaction from Renshaw, and fully agree that cutting across Farrar was the worse of the two incidents.

Junior

I dunno it seems a lot like the race organisers are speaking out of both sides of their mouth with this incident.

From cycling news they say this
Race director Jean-Francois Pescheux reviewed the film, which shows Renshaw repeatedly head-butting Garmin-Transitions man Julian Dean, who was leading out Tyler Farrar. The move delayed Farrar's ability to sprint.

"Renshaw hit [Dean] with his head, much like in a keirin. But we are in the sport of cycling, we're not in combat. They all could have ended up on their backs tonight. We can not accept that."

I think of the two parts of the sprint the move to 'block' Farrar was more dangerous, but it is the headbutt he's dq'd for. They seem to be speaking out of both sides of their mouth due to the following incidents..

1- The Barrado fight, one rider goes to attack another with a wheel and they get a light fine
2- They've set a number of Parcours which seem to put the riders at a higher risk of accident/crash yet sanction a rider for something that could have caused an accident.

Decuc500

It's hard enough for Farrar to beat Cavendish in a fair sprint but when his teammate is being heatbutted and he's being shoved into the barrier, it's impossible.

Lumen

Junior wrote: »

They've set a number of Parcours which seem to put the riders at a higher risk of accident/crash yet sanction a rider for something that could have caused an accident.

On stage 10 they put the finish just round a bend. Completely bizarre arrangement with riders saying that they couldn't see the finish line.

Captain Havoc

Another thing to take into consideration is that Farrar could have won if he was not blocked because of the distance from the line Cavendish sprinted, I doubt Cavendish could have stayed in front for so long, which they probably also took into account.

Chips Lovell

Junior wrote: »

I think of the two parts of the sprint the move to 'block' Farrar was more dangerous, but it is the headbutt he's dq'd for. They seem to be speaking out of both sides of their mouth due to the following incidents..

1- The Barrado fight, one rider goes to attack another with a wheel and they get a light fine
2- They've set a number of Parcours which seem to put the riders at a higher risk of accident/crash yet sanction a rider for something that could have caused an accident.

I looked at it a few times last night. I think the first couple of butts might have been justified, but the problem was the Renshaw went for a third that seemed completely unnecessary and they may have been what sealed the deal.

The contrast with the fight is interesting, but I think what may have been the deciding factor was that it happened in the finale of the race rather than afterwards. The entire world got to see this and they may have decided it brought greater disrepute to the sport than something that is simply circulating on YouTube.

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

I looked at it a few times last night. I think the first couple of butts might have been justified, but the problem was the Renshaw went for a third that seemed completely unnecessary and they may have been what sealed the deal.

The contrast with the fight is interesting, but I think what may have been the deciding factor was that it happened in the finale of the race rather than afterwards. The entire world got to see this and they may have decided it brought greater disrepute to the sport than something that is simply circulating on YouTube.

Actually, Farrar took his hand off the bars to push at Renshaw -now, I know Renshaw was in the wrong by moving over to the left, but I thought the rules were quite clear on not taking your hands off the bars, so surely in a fair world he'd get done for that too?

petethedrummer

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Actually, Farrar took his hand off the bars to push at Renshaw -now, I know Renshaw was in the wrong by moving over to the left, but I thought the rules were quite clear on not taking your hands off the bars, so surely in a fair world he'd get done for that too?

Surely you're allowed take your hands of the bars if you think you're going to be driven into the barrier?

Chips Lovell

I'd like to read the rules, but I'm inclined to agree with Pete. Farrar only pushed Renshaw when he was on the brink of hitting the barrier. He was left with little choice really. Whether there is provision in the rules for taking evasive action like this, I don't know, but it would seem silly to penalise someone for that.

TinyExplosions

petethedrummer wrote: »

Surely you're allowed take your hands of the bars if you think you're going to be driven into the barrier?

I agree with that, but if the rules are rules, they should be applied to everyone in the same way

petethedrummer

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I agree with that, but if the rules are rules, they should be applied to everyone in the same way

So when can you take your hands off? after you have hit the ground?

DirkVoodoo

Hard to have sympathy for Renshaw, seeing him interviewed on eurosport and he said he never saw Farrar, but on the footage he looks over his left shoulder after Cav moves, seems to be looking right at Farrar and then starts to move into the barriers to close him off.

To me that was worse than the headbutting which only seemed to be to get rid of the elbow from JD and stop a crash.

Chips Lovell

Just had a look at the UCI rules and I can't find anything re. taking your hands off the bars in a sprint. The only rule is about not deviating from your line. Anyone know where this rule is meant to be?

TinyExplosions

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Hard to have sympathy for Renshaw, seeing him interviewed on eurosport and he said he never saw Farrar, but on the footage he looks over his left shoulder after Cav moves, seems to be looking right at Farrar and then starts to move into the barriers to close him off.

To me that was worse than the headbutting which only seemed to be to get rid of the elbow from JD and stop a crash.

I'm not sure of that, looking at the eurosport footage, he looks ahead of Farrar, so he may not have seen him.

el tonto wrote: »

Just had a look at the UCI rules and I can't find anything re. taking your hands off the bars in a sprint. The only rule is about not deviating from your line. Anyone know where this rule is meant to be?

I've just heard it quoted by the various channels, and took it to be an actual rule. For instance Sean Kelly mentioned it when referring to his '85 punch up in the sprint

DirkVoodoo

I dunno, to me that looks like he is looking back. He would hardly need to turn his head to see Cav move past. He looks, then he moves.



It looks like he is going to shut down anyone going after Cav, but given the whole "staying in your lane" thing, is that allowed? Pretty reckless to swing over to the barriers like that.

AstraMonti

http://www.youtube.com/v/_L8VLgLX7AM

The finish from above.

niceonetom

Cosmo Catalano made this video a few weeks ago. It seems apposite to this conversation. He's about to make a video about this Renshaw incident - his analysis is always interesting even if I don't always agree %100. His take is "If Renshaw's out, it's because he looked over his left shoulder, saw Farrar, then went ahead and shut the gate anyway. #tdf" which would be my reading exactly. That look signals intent, and if Renshaw's not at the tour to place himself the options open to the race organisers for punishment are limited.

There does not seem to be any explicit rule prohibiting taking your hand of the bars while sprinting.

DirkVoodoo

I think the helmet thing was fine, it was self defence. The Farrar thing was far more dangerous and I hope that is what he got the boot for although I would prefer to have seen a hefty fine so we can enjoy the rest of the tour.

TinyExplosions

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I think the helmet thing was fine, it was self defence. The Farrar thing was far more dangerous and I hope that is what he got the boot for although I would prefer to have seen a hefty fine so we can enjoy the rest of the tour.

I agree with this view too, the move left on top of Farrar was by far the worse move, but the Commissars said that he was removed primarily for the headbut, and secondarily for the move on Farrar -maybe we're arguing semantics again, but given what the officials said, I think they were wrong. If they'd changed it to the dangerous behavior after Cav had gone I'd be happier.

I also think though that part of the reason the punishment is so harsh is that there is very little else they could do in order to punish Renshaw. A fine would be gladly paid by the team, as the important thing (Cav's win) was already sealed. Similarly, demoting Renshaw to last place, either in the stage or overall would also not be a problem for him as he's not a GC contender, and had done his job.

The biggest bugbear is that this could have a detrimental effect on his career, as now he's got not just a black mark against his name, but a DQ for being dangerous.

Also, as Renshaw said himself, the headbut was far safer than sticking his elbows out and trying to move Dean that way

DirkVoodoo

Yeah, they were probably only worried about the image of cycling rather than the act itself. All those poor impressionable children will be out headbutting each other on their trikes!

Although this eurosport idea that it's a conspiracy against Cav is pretty ridiculous.

Chips Lovell

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I've just heard it quoted by the various channels, and took it to be an actual rule. For instance Sean Kelly mentioned it when referring to his '85 punch up in the sprint

I wonder if it's the case that there is a general rule against violent or dangerous conduct and taking your hands off the bars in a sprint is usually regarded by commissars as such.

DirkVoodoo

I asked eurosport, dunno if they will read it out, I'm on something of a cold streak with those guys lately.

Chips Lovell

TinyExplosions wrote: »

The biggest bugbear is that this could have a detrimental effect on his career, as now he's got not just a black mark against his name, but a DQ for being dangerous.

I seriously doubt it. Being DQ'd for headbutting never did Robbie McEwen any harm.

Chips Lovell

Also, Tom Steels was expelled from the Tour in 1997 for bottling Moncassin and it didn't do him much harm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzTZV0TYG-U

TinyExplosions

Fair enough I guess, though it does mean he can't now say "I've never been cautioned for my behavior"

I don't think eurosport think it's a plot against Cav, but more that given the history between Garmin and Columbia that it was a contributing factor, and if it had been a leakygas rider headbutted the punishment wouldn't have been so severe

Raam

el tonto wrote:

Just had a look at the UCI rules and I can't find anything re. taking your hands off the bars in a sprint. The only rule is about not deviating from your line. Anyone know where this rule is meant to be?

Different race, different circumstances, but Theo Boss took his hands off the bars in a run in to the finish when he was getting squeezed into the barriers at the Tour of Turkey. He ended up grabbing a fistful of Dayrl Impey's jersey. I'm sure everyone remembers the aftermath of that.

He was widely criticized for it.

What's my point? I don't know.

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

Different race, different circumstances, but Theo Boss took his hands off the bars in a run in to the finish when he was getting squeezed into the barriers at the Tour of Turkey. He ended up grabbing a fistful of Dayrl Impey's jersey. I'm sure everyone remembers the aftermath of that.

He was widely criticized for it.

What's my point? I don't know.

The difference arguably was that Bos made a dangerous situation even worse through his actions.

blorg

el tonto wrote: »

I wonder if it's the case that there is a general rule against violent or dangerous conduct and taking your hands off the bars in a sprint is usually regarded by commissars as such.

Cycling Ireland have a rule about not taking your hands off the bars in a sprint; that could be what you are thinking of. It is more to do with prohibiting celebration and is not widely enforced. Many other national federations have a similar rule in amateur racing and I believe in the UK and US people actually do get disqualified over it.

Cycling Ireland wrote:

10.2.1 Holding the handle-bar with one hand when crossing the finishing line during a close sprint

10.2.2 Releasing the handle-bars when crossing the finishing line during a close sprint