Racism is alive and well in Ireland

Celly Smunt

InTheTrees wrote: »

The truth is the people of these islands are identical. There's some cultural differences because of geography but thats it. Genetically we're all from the same northern european pool.

i can always spot an british person though,there's just something slightly differen't i can't put my finger on,for example you would never look at that johnny rugby player guy from england and think he was irish

Arubaa

Thanks, I am white with freckles if it that matters :)but still why no more Irish have something to say? I'll realy appreciate every advise folks, I'm living in your country for 5 years and going to stay for good.
Thanks

Misanthrope

pmcmahon wrote: »

i can always spot an british person though,there's just something slightly differen't i can't put my finger on,for example you would never look at that johnny rugby player guy from england and think he was irish

It's the gleaming white tennis shoes.Not cool in Ireland.

Rabble Rabble

rabble rabble

Donkey Oaty

Arubaa wrote: »

Thanks, I am white with freckles if it that matters :)but still why no more Irish have something to say? I'll realy appreciate every advise folks, I'm living in your country for 5 years and going to stay for good.
Thanks

I'd start a new thread called "Why are the Irish so unfriendly towards me?" or something like that if I were you, Arubaa - you might get more answers that way.

flag123

English people are our closest relatives (English, not of African etc. decent)

I_AmThe_Walrus

I agree.

Ireland certainly is a place of rampant closet xenophobes. Ive seen floggings in the streets.

Misanthrope

flag123 wrote: »

English people are our closest relatives (English, not of African etc. decent)

In terms of common ancestry we are very close but some sub-Saharan regions are actually closer in so much as a greater percentage have the same Y haplotype. RB1.Cameroon is one such place.Whooda thunk it?Many African English could potentially be related to us also.

pajodublin

BrookieD wrote: »

:mad:
Wow to say i am pi**ed is a massive understatement. I moved here from the UK 15 years ago, Drove a taxi in Dublin and have worked for the last 10 years in various big companies, never have i been spoken to with such venom and hate as happened ten mins ago outside my front door.

Some "person" decided to call me all the English wan***s, c**ts, bas***ds, and more besides. I should "f**k off back to the UK, as you took 6 counties and your not getting anymore"

what the hell is going on........

on the plus side it was a fantastic advert for my son on how not to treat others.........


rant over:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Soooo, you're not gonna f*ck off home then?

maninasia

InTheTrees wrote: »

The truth is the people of these islands are identical. There's some cultural differences because of geography but thats it. Genetically we're all from the same northern european pool.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is a distinct difference in the genes of people in Ireland...the more West you go the more 'original migrant' genes you get, you can trace that through the male lineage on the Y chromosome. People from the West of Ireland are descendants of the original wave of migrants during the neolithic, thousands of years ago (plus mixing with later migrants, but they retain more of the genes of the first migrants into Western Europe). Irish people are more lighter skinned, paler than English in general. You'll notice that quite a few English tan and have blonde hair whereas in Ireland it's seen as a rare 'talent'. That's probably because of the saxon influence in England.

That's why you will see unusual sights in Ireland such as the 'black Irish' (strangely well known in America but not in Ireland, probably because everybody is used to it in Ireland), black hair and blue eyes and also more redheads and paler people than anywhere else in the world (there are redheads in Scandinavia but they don't burn in the summer like ours). There's NOBODY paler than the Irish in the whole world, except for Scots but they are of similar lineage (being pale is a good thing in a lot of countries...travel and you will see).

There is no 'line' dividing people between different countries but there is certainly a difference in the gene pools between countries and very much within countries. Irish people are fairly easy to pick out anywhere in the world...or their descendants.

leinsterrugby

probably some parasite from ballymun/finglas/crumlin.

it is very easy to spot a certain type of irish but a lot of irish look the same as french english dutch german. in actual fact like u give any irish person any of the aforementioned accent and they wouldn't look out of place. a good few irish such as my old man would look southern european. my mum looks more french/english than irish.

Doc

Happened to me in England. A guy was trying to steal my friends bag in my student union I stopped him and he proceeded to ask me if I farmed potatoes and to "**** off back to Ireland you potato munching Paddy!" the red mist descended and if my mate didn’t hold me back I would have decked him but fortunately he did and the bouncer kicked the guy out.

I’ve also had hundreds of paddy Irishman jokes told to me during my time living there.

Everywhere has idiots and just because I met some in England doesn’t mean I much. He was obviously too stupid to think up any insults other then stereotypes based on my nationality. Got me mad at the time but I wouldn’t hold it against all of England or the English.

maninasia

leinsterrugby wrote: »

probably some parasite from ballymun/finglas/crumlin.

it is very easy to spot a certain type of irish but a lot of irish look the same as french english dutch german. in actual fact like u give any irish person any of the aforementioned accent and they wouldn't look out of place. a good few irish such as my old man would look southern european. my mum looks more french/english than irish.

Agreed, certainly there is a lot more to Irish than pale and freckles, that is just a subgroup of Irish but the one that is more unique. What makes Irish people stick out is their hairstyles, clothes, and dodgy orange tans on holidays.

Misanthrope

maninasia wrote: »

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is a distinct difference in the genes of people in Ireland...the more West you go the more 'original migrant' genes you get, you can trace that through the male lineage on the Y chromosome. People from the West of Ireland are descendants of the original wave of migrants during the neolithic, thousands of years ago (plus mixing with later migrants, but they retain more of the genes of the first migrants into Western Europe). Irish people are more lighter skinned, paler than English in general. You'll notice that quite a few English tan and have blonde hair whereas in Ireland it's seen as a rare 'talent'. That's probably because of the saxon influence in England.

That's why you will see unusual sights in Ireland such as the 'black Irish' (strangely well known in America but not in Ireland, probably because everybody is used to it in Ireland), black hair and blue eyes and also more redheads and paler people than anywhere else in the world (there are redheads in Scandinavia but they don't burn in the summer like ours). There's NOBODY paler than the Irish in the whole world, except for Scots but they are of similar lineage (being pale is a good thing in a lot of countries...travel and you will see).

There is no 'line' dividing people between different countries but there is certainly a difference in the gene pools between countries and very much within countries. Irish people are fairly easy to pick out anywhere in the world...or their descendants.

from; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/7/1008/

Today, the most hotly debated of all the British cultural transitions is the role of migration in the relatively sudden and drastic change from Romano-Britain to Anglo-Saxon Britain (Hamerow 1997 ; Burmeister 2000 ). This transition was once widely accepted as providing clear evidence for a mass migration from continental Europe and the near-complete replacement of the indigenous population in England (Leeds 1954 ; Myres 1986 ). Stories of migration are included in the writings of Gildas (ca. a.d. 540) and Bede (a.d. 731) and hinted at in Anglo-Saxon sagas, such as Beowulf (Davies 1999 ). Archaeological evidence confirmed a rapid rise of continental culture in England (Esmonde-Cleary 1993 ) and suggested a contemporaneous desertion of continental Germanic settlements. More recently, however, authors have questioned the evidence for large-scale immigration (Crawford 1997 ; Hamerow 1997 ) and continental emigration (Näsman 1988 ; Petersen 1991 ) and emphasized the continuity of the Romano-British population in England. The sudden change to an Anglo-Saxon culture has been attributed instead to rapid acculturation and indigenous developments, with only a small number of Germanic immigrants (perhaps a male military elite) settling in Britain (Arnold 1984 ; Hodges 1989 ; Higham 1992 ). The contribution of Anglo-Saxon immigration to the modern English gene pool thus remains uncertain.

Misanthrope

Last time I checked Germany had a higher percentage of redheads than Ireland.Red hair is not a racial trait rather a genetic mechanism to allow more light through the skin in poorly lit environments.It is thought that this is a defence against rickets and other conditions brought on by a lack of vitamin D.Two red-haired parents can produce dark haired offspring.

When redheads spend enough time in sunnier climates their complexion and hair often begins to react to the new environment.

Given that 90% of Irish men are RB1, that tells us that 90% of us share a common male ancestor.Of course this tells us nothing about X chroms and I suspect therein lies the reason for the varying appearances of people with a common male ancestor.

maninasia

Yes, just like Irish people think of Ireland as a Celtic nation, but the fact is that the Celts really only brought their culture to Ireland to convert/conquer the original inhabitants, perhaps less than 10% of the population were actual Celtic invaders. The same may have gone on in England to some extent but it's clear just from looking at English people that they do seem to have more tanned types..Germanic/Scandinavian influence I guess.

Irish people in general are also quite 'strong' looking...maybe not very tall but more solidly built, different than many other Europeans.

maninasia

Misanthrope wrote: »

Last time I checked Germany had a higher percentage of redheads than Ireland.Red hair is not a racial trait rather a genetic mechanism to allow more light through the skin in poorly lit environments.It is thought that this is a defence against rickets and other conditions brought on by a lack of vitamin D.Two red-haired parents can produce dark haired offspring.

When redheads spend enough time in sunnier climates their complexion and hair often begins to react to the new environment.

Given that 90% of Irish men are RB1, that tells us that 90% of us share a common male ancestor.Of course this tells us nothing about X chroms and I suspect therein lies the reason for the varying appearances of people with a common male ancestor.

Ah yes but it would be a big mistake to lump all redheads together, as anybody who has seen a Norwegian redhead and an Irish redhead would ascertain. Most likely they are from different independent mutations...at least a wide spectrum. Anything that appears more in one group of people could indeed be thought of as a racial trait, just as Ashkenazi disease or sickle cells disease are seen as racial traits in Jews/Afro-Americans respectively.

The RB1 information is interesting but we would have to compare with other countries to see how common it is in the European population, perhaps every country has such a marker due to founding population effect.

monkeypants

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

Am I the only Irish person that doesn't dislike the English?

No. There are many, many reasons why I may not like someone, or a group of people. Where they hail from is not one of them.

Ilyana

Given that I have one Irish parent and one English parent, I am biased towards neither nationality
In fact, I was quite shocked to hear some of my classmate's anti-British attitudes when we studied Anglo-Irish relations in history class (only three years ago). Clearly they had inherited outdated and irrelevant prejudices from their parents and grandparents, and I'm sure that the same is happening in the UK as well.
Sad fact of life, really.

Fratton Fred

Do people actually give a **** about what or who out ancestors are/were?

We are all a mixture of different genes etc. It's what makes us all uniquely different.

I couldn't care less if my ancestors were Celtic, Saxon, Norman or norsk.

Donkey Oaty

EmilyO wrote: »

In fact, I was quite shocked to hear some of my classmate's anti-British attitudes when we studied Anglo-Irish relations in history class (only three years ago).

Stick with After Hours and prepare to be shocked.

You ain't heard nothing yet! (Al Jolson)

Donkey Oaty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do people actually give a **** about what or who out ancestors are/were?

We are all a mixture of different genes etc. It's what makes us all uniquely different.

I couldn't care less if my ancestors were Celtic, Saxon, Norman or norsk.

I am the producer of "Who Do You Think You Are?" and our invitation to you is revoked.

InTheTrees

I posted this on another forum a while back; there's a fascinating project being undertaken by the National Geographic Society to trace the migration of humans out of africa by tracing DNA.

They send you a kit, you take a swab from your mouth and send it to them and (for a small fee) you will get a route map of your DNA from that first group of homo sapiens in africa to the present.

https://genographic.nationalgeograph...hic/index.html

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

jackiebaron

owenc wrote: »

Don't you mean british, there are other people in the uk you know, oh and you were in the war with us!:P The first one.

British refers to the people of Britain. That's that big island across the Irish sea that comprises England, Scotland and Wales. Although you are part of the UK you are not British. Check your passport. It reads United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Unless of course you are from Britain and decided to move to the occupied territories:P

InTheTrees

jackiebaron wrote: »

British refers to the people of Britain. That's that big island across the Irish sea that comprises England, Scotland and Wales. Although you are part of the UK you are not British. Check your passport. It reads United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Unless of course you are from Britain and decided to move to the occupied territories:P

Actually I think "british" in this sense is used as an abbreviation of "great britain and northern ireland".

In the same way you'd call them british citizens.

bigbadbear

InTheTrees wrote: »

Actually I think "british" in this sense is used as an abbreviation of "great britain and northern ireland".

In the same way you'd call them british citizens.

^^^^^ This is not the case^^^^^

Britain is an Island. The UK is it north included. The unionists in the north call themselfes British. Thats all

Fratton Fred

jackiebaron wrote: »

British refers to the people of Britain. That's that big island across the Irish sea that comprises England, Scotland and Wales. Although you are part of the UK you are not British. Check your passport. It reads United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Unless of course you are from Britain and decided to move to the occupied territories:P

Is that the same passport that says "nationality: British Citizen". I presume people in the north have the same on their's, but I'm open to correction.

bigbadbear

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is that the same passport that says "nationality: British Citizen". I presume people in the north have the same on their's, but I'm open to correction.

I think the people of the north can apply for an Irish passport just as I can in Dublin

Fratton Fred

bigbadbear wrote: »

I think the people of the north can apply for an Irish passport just as I can in Dublin

I believe they can, but they are perfectly entitled to call themselves British if that's their wish.

bigbadbear

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I believe they can, but they are perfectly entitled to call themselves British if that's their wish.

I know. Quite pathetic really. Just because their great great great great great grandfather was british and came to Ireland to make the Irish people stop playing hurling certainly does not make them british. Leave them at it i suppose

InTheTrees

bigbadbear wrote: »

Leave them at it i suppose

Its a whole different world up there, everytime I try to even comment on it I end up tripping up over nationalities and heritage and religion. or something.

Millicent

bigbadbear wrote: »

I know. Quite pathetic really. Just because their great great great great great grandfather was british and came to Ireland to make the Irish people stop playing hurling certainly does not make them british. Leave them at it i suppose

If they want to call themselves British, it's up to them. Dunno why people keep correcting Owen on his nationality. His understanding of history, politics and current affairs- yes. His nationality, no.

bigbadbear

bigbadbear wrote: »

I know. Quite pathetic really. Just because their great great great great great grandfather was british and came to Ireland to make the Irish people stop playing hurling certainly does not make them british. Leave them at it i suppose

I think you'll find that Northern Ireland is part of the UK and that Northern Irish people are officially classed as 'British citizens' in their UK passports. I fail to see how they're not officially British if they hold such a passport. My dad, sister and half my cousins were born in Northern Ireland and all of them are British citizens. When I go to the post office in NI for a passport form, I'm automatically given a form for a British passport. Fair enough if you don't agree that that should be the case, but it's not as if Northern Irish people have just decided to call themselves British when they're not. It doesn't really matter what your opinion is. This is a fact.

Einhard

^^^^^
What she said. They call themselves British because they were born in, and live in, Great Britain. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp really.

bigbadbear

Eleanor Red Baton wrote: »

I think you'll find that Northern Ireland is part of the UK and that Northern Irish people are officially classed as 'British citizens' in their UK passports. I fail to see how they're not officially British if they hold such a passport. My dad, sister and half my cousins were born in Northern Ireland and all of them are British citizens. When I go to the post office in NI for a passport form, I'm automatically given a form for a British passport. Fair enough if you don't agree that that should be the case, but it's not as if Northern Irish people have just decided to call themselves British when they're not. It doesn't really matter what your opinion is. This is a fact.

I'm not saying either way whether they should get an irish or british passport. What I am saying is that neither actually represents the reality that northern Ireland is neither part or britain or the republic or ireland. Britain is not the north or Ireland. This is a fact. The people there have a right to call themselves british if they want like they can call themselves Irish. The british thing comes from being a descendant of a Brit and not location.

bigbadbear

Einhard wrote: »

^^^^^
What she said. They call themselves British because they were born in, and live in, Great Britain. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp really.

So when they say great britain and northern Ireland what do they mean.

I suppose from now on Im goin to say Ireland and donegal.

bigbadbear

bigbadbear wrote: »

So when they say great britain and northern Ireland what do they mean.

I suppose from now on Im goin to say Ireland and donegal.

Like Einhard said, I didn't think it was that hard to grasp. The official name of the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The adjective for citizens of this country is British. Inside the UK passport of every person from Northern Ireland, are the words 'British Citizen.' It really doesn't matter whether or not this seems logical to you, it's a legal fact. The word United Kingdomish doesn't exist.

ch750536

When times are tough people look for a scapegoat. It's happening in the UK too with all the immigration \ disabled bashing going on in the daily (f)mail.

A lot of people are finding things really tough just now and they are feeling the strain, let them vent little and buy them a pint later, sure they'll apologise and move on.

Millicent

ch750536 wrote: »

When times are tough people look for a scapegoat. It's happening in the UK too with all the immigration \ disabled bashing going on in the daily (f)mail.

A lot of people are finding things really tough just now and they are feeling the strain, let them vent little and buy them a pint later, sure they'll apologise and move on.

So reward them for their racism? I get what you're saying here but no. Just no. Everyone gets stressed. It's not an excuse for xenophobia and bad behaviour.

ETA: The Daily Mail has never needed the recession to bash immigrants- they were doing it in the boom times too.

ch750536

ch750536 wrote: »

When times are tough people look for a scapegoat. It's happening in the UK too with all the immigration \ disabled bashing going on in the daily (f)mail.

A lot of people are finding things really tough just now and they are feeling the strain, let them vent little and buy them a pint later, sure they'll apologise and move on.

Buy someone a pint for being a bigoted, abusive moron? Shouldn't they be buying him a pint?

ch750536

Millicent wrote: »

So reward them for their racism?

Naa, just be understanding that people are losing homes, families etc due to the stress of money and giving people a break can be a far better thing for society than making them feel even more disenfranchised.

ch750536

Eleanor Red Baton wrote: »

Buy someone a pint for being a bigoted, abusive moron? Shouldn't they be buying him a pint?

I did this many years ago in east germany to a group of nazi like thugs who didn't like the fact the first tourist in their town was English. They accepted the beers as they had to (local custom I heard earlier in the day) and we ended up having a beer and talking about how fantastic freedom can be.

Most of the time when people are ranting at you it's got nothing to do with you personally, you just have to give opportunity for them to realise that.

Millicent

ch750536 wrote: »

Naa, just be understanding that people are losing homes, families etc due to the stress of money and giving people a break can be a far better thing for society than making them feel even more disenfranchised.

I'm fresh out of college to no jobs and my boyfriend who lives with me lost his, along with loads of other people in my family. I wouldn't tolerate racism from any of them, especially myself. I understand your "turn the other cheek" thinking but really, it's more than what racists and xenophobes deserve when they don't extend the same understanding to other people.

Millicent

ch750536 wrote: »

I did this many years ago in east germany to a group of nazi like thugs who didn't like the fact the first tourist in their town was English. They accepted the beers as they had to (local custom I heard earlier in the day) and we ended up having a beer and talking about how fantastic freedom can be.

Most of the time when people are ranting at you it's got nothing to do with you personally, you just have to give opportunity for them to realise that.

Ah, kill 'em with kindness. I see now. Does take the wind from their sails!

ch750536

ch750536 wrote: »

I did this many years ago in east germany to a group of nazi like thugs who didn't like the fact the first tourist in their town was English. They accepted the beers as they had to (local custom I heard earlier in the day) and we ended up having a beer and talking about how fantastic freedom can be.

Most of the time when people are ranting at you it's got nothing to do with you personally, you just have to give opportunity for them to realise that.

Fair enough. I know it has nothing to do with me personally. That actually makes it worse. I'd rather be called a b*tch or a kunt based on something I'd said or done than abused for simply being me. I personally would have absolutely no time for any Nazi like thugs who disliked me because of where I was born but each to their own.

Dionysus

Eleanor Red Baton wrote: »

I think you'll find that Northern Ireland is part of the UK and that Northern Irish people are officially classed as 'British citizens' in their UK passports. I fail to see how they're not officially British if they hold such a passport. My dad, sister and half my cousins were born in Northern Ireland and all of them are British citizens. When I go to the post office in NI for a passport form, I'm automatically given a form for a British passport. Fair enough if you don't agree that that should be the case, but it's not as if Northern Irish people have just decided to call themselves British when they're not. It doesn't really matter what your opinion is. This is a fact.

In fairness, in the history of British-Irish relations the British have enforced many other similar "facts" - no Irish Catholic can own Irish land, being one of the more infamous of these "facts".

At the end of the day, "Northern Ireland" is a mere 89 years old (younger than either of my grandparents) so it doesn't really warrant going on about as if it's something that will be here forever. On the other hand, a person born in Belfast or Derry in 1610 or 2010 is Irish, regardless of what political state may be invented in Ireland by the British.

Dionysus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I believe they can, but they are perfectly entitled to call themselves British if that's their wish.

Or Jedi, for that matter.

Dionysus

Einhard wrote: »

^^^^^
What she said. They call themselves British because they were born in, and live in, Great Britain. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp really.

OK, so people born in the northeast of Ireland living under British rule in 2010 were "born in, and live in, Great Britain"?

Were all the rest of the people in Ireland before December 1922 "born in" Great Britain and did they "live in" Great Britain simply because all of Ireland was under British colonial rule until then?

Dionysus

Dionysus wrote: »

In fairness, in the history of British-Irish relations the British have enforced many other similar "facts" - no Irish Catholic can own Irish land, being one of the more infamous of these "facts".

At the end of the day, "Northern Ireland" is a mere 89 years old (younger than either of my grandparents) so it doesn't really warrant going on about as if it's something that will be here forever. On the other hand, a person born in Belfast or Derry in 1610 or 2010 is Irish, regardless of what political state may be invented in Ireland by the British.

That's not really the point though. Political opinions are one thing, but it was being argued that Northern Irish people are not British because Northern Ireland isn't in Great Britain. This is a common misconception around these parts. And for what it's worth, I don't agree with you. Just because somewhere was once part of one country doesn't mean it should be regarded as part of it forever. There are plenty of countries younger than Northern Ireland. You said NI didn't exist when your grandparents were born, well when I was born, Slovakia didn't exist. Or Macedonia. Things change.

I'm not saying I LIKE the fact that NI is British, but I don't think that sort of argument makes a whole lot of sense.