H.R. / I.R. Managers / Union managers - can you please give me advice

hrdummy

I work for a small company with about 25 staff and I have fallen into the HR function by default so admit freely that I am out of my depth with the bigger stuff. (daily operations are proceeding well though, thankfully)

Around half the staff do electrical work and 7 staff do small civils and construction, with the remaining staff doing admin & garage work.

A few months back TEEU came a-knocking. (Let me start by saying that if any union actively makes an effort to look after our employees I will meet them with open arms, but if they do nothing other than take their money every month, I will work against them)

But what is happening now is that they are demanding full membership of ALL of our staff, and not just the electrical staff. Here are my questions and please forgive me if they're stupid but the whole Union thing leaves me shaking my head with terminal confusion:

1. I accept that the REA for electrical contractors means that my electrical staff have to belong (and they're mostly happy to join so no big problems there), but why would our construction/admin/garage staff be forced to join when the union doesnt do anything for them. Only electricians rates are stipulated. The travel and other pay issues also dont really apply. TEEU wont be involved in the pay rates of peripheral staff?

2. Dont my construction staff have to belong to CIF.

3. Can a company genuinely serve 2 separate unions (CIF & TEEU)? I'd say about 60% of our income comes from electrical projects if that helps.

4. How do I handle staff swapping between electrical jobs and pure construction jobs (I cant say more than this without jeopardising confidentiality - sorry. All I can say is that constructon staff sometimes support the electrical staff, and sometimes go off and work on non-electrical projects.)

5. If I have staff who dont want to belong to a union but do the same work as someone else who is unionised, how do I implement any changes to pay rates that are negotiated with the union. I can imagine there would be bleating if a non-union guy was left out of an increase, but if the rates of pay were dropped in line with the economy (and we are already payng slightly more than the current stipulated union rates) how can I enforce the change. It took me years to get pay levels established in our company and staff doing the same work are now all paid the same.

6. As I mentioned we already pay more than TEEU rates. If we chose to accept union representation that should mean that the terms of the REA are honoured in their entirety and our staff must be paid less (offset against some of the other benefits in the REA that the staff are currently not getting). How does this work with their terms & conditions of pay?

I understand that logically you may want to refer me to IBEC (not a member) or some consultant to get answers to these questions. We're on the collective bones of our butts financially, and I'd really like to try and avoid any expense. Our company is really struggling.

I am of course generalising - apologies for that - but so my experience has been that consultants tell me the law (which is often open to interpretation) but they hesitate to tell me how to apply it to our own unique situations. So far my exposure to consultants raises more questions than it answers, and I genuinely dont mean to be disparaging. I believe I am the problem wanting people to tell me exactly what to do. I do have an above average knowledge of most of the HR legislation but havent a clue about IR and union involement.

If you read this far without giving up, thank you! And thanks for any advice you can offer.

mikemac

If you won't try IBEC then maybe these guys

www.isme.ie

hrdummy

Thanks for that but sadly they also wont help unless we join and pay an annual membership fee which like IBEC is quite reasonable and wouldnt be an issue except that our finances are up the creak!!! Proud as punch we havent had to reduce wages or let anyone go over past two years but we count every single penny and have very few of them. thanks for help though.

amen

wow that was a long post. A few quick things.

1: you don't have to recognise/deal with the union if you want. You cannot however stop anyone joining a Union if they want to
2: I'm not sure about REA rates and about your staff members getting a higher rate but less benefits.
3: Re union and non union members. If they are doing the same work with the same experience and responsibilities then they should really be paid the same. You can't pay a non union member more.
4: Can you serve two unions? Yes you can. In fact it could be worse. The admin staff could join SIPTU and then you would have three unions!

I really think IBEC or a HR specialist is required.

looksee

But what is happening now is that they are demanding full membership of ALL of our staff, and not just the electrical staff.

I can't help you as I know very little about unions (I'm in one but I often wonder why). However I cannot see that the above is your problem. Who are they making demands of? What leverage have they to demand anything? If you were actively preventing people from joining unions they might have something to complain about, but I cannot see how they can demand anything of you, people join a union if they want to.

And we have three unions in our place, leads to some interesting situations!

hrdummy

And we have three unions in our place, leads to some interesting situations![/QUOTE]

OMG!!! I feel so much better even if it is inadvertently. Thanks:D

hrdummy

amen wrote: »

wow that was a long post. A few quick things.

1: you don't have to recognise/deal with the union if you want. You cannot however stop anyone joining a Union if they want to
2: I'm not sure about REA rates and about your staff members getting a higher rate but less benefits.
3: Re union and non union members. If they are doing the same work with the same experience and responsibilities then they should really be paid the same. You can't pay a non union member more.
4: Can you serve two unions? Yes you can. In fact it could be worse. The admin staff could join SIPTU and then you would have three unions!

I really think IBEC or a HR specialist is required.

Thank you for your response

re your points

1. I though belonging ot a Registered Employment Agreement was compulsory?
2. Sorry if I wasnt clear. We came to our rates though historical negotiation direct with our staff and have now landed up with a basic rate that is more than the union rate, but some of the other union benefits are not being paid exactly as stated - e.g. country money (wow is that an administrative nightmare if we do it as per union requirements. distance travelled is translated into hours of pay whilst Revenue have their own requirements as well! Shoot me now!)
3. I agree happily but was wondering if I could argue that legally. The question that keeps coming up is "Why bother belonging to a union if you're affected by it anyway?"
4. Gulp!!!! 3????? Can I retire at 40?

Thanks so much for your help and input

hrdummy

Sorry again for length. Stress makes me verbose:D

hrdummy

looksee wrote: »

I can't help you as I know very little about unions (I'm in one but I often wonder why). However I cannot see that the above is your problem. Who are they making demands of? What leverage have they to demand anything? If you were actively preventing people from joining unions they might have something to complain about, but I cannot see how they can demand anything of you, people join a union if they want to.

And we have three unions in our place, leads to some interesting situations!

Their demands are coming from the fact that they deem us to be Electrical Contractors and by law we have to belong to the Registered Employment Agreement for our industry.

There are about 40 REA for various industries so not every industry is covered. Electrical contractors are one of those industries covered.

I dont mind a lot that our electrical staff may have no choice but to belong. (I am absolutely committed to being in compliance with legislation). I just dont know how to argue the Union's claim that our other staff must belong just because they work for a company that does more electrical work than other kinds of work. There is no provision in the Elec REA for auxillary and admin staff?

We have never stopped anyone from joining a union but find ourselves having to apparently force people to belong to TEEU when they dont want to. Its new to us and our staff.

Thanks for your input Looksee & Amen

Stheno

Noone, neither a company or a union can force an individual to join a union.

hrdummy

Thanks Nougatti but I so wish that were true, and it is mostly true except with registered employment agreements & JLC agreements. This is about the only bit of IR that I know with any confidence. Some other industries affected by this are hairdressing, hotels, catering, law clerks, printers. There are about 60 of these legally binging agreements that affect anyone in one of these industries. Its the same as construction workers having to be register with CIF

But one of the points in this case is that we're arguing that we are not 100% elec contractors. If we were, we would legally have to belong to this agreement. Even NERA would enforce that. To be fair its not only TEEU who have negotiation rights in the electrical contractors REA. I think there are a few trade unions

Below is an except of the citizen's info website. NERA has a longer explanation.
Employers of workers covered by a JLC or a Collective Agreement are obliged to pay the wage rates and provide the conditions of employment prescribed by the ERO or REA. They must also display details of the current agreement in the workplace and keep records of wages.
Under the Industrial Relations Acts 1946 – 2001 the National Employment Rights Authority is responsible for enforcing EROs and REAs and, if necessary, will take proceedings against an employer who is in breach of an Employment Regulation Order or a Registered Employment Agreement.

Another example of where trade union membership ends up being compulsory is when a company sub-contracts to a local authority or semi state body like the ESB. These "clients" can put in their contracts of employment that membership of a T/U is a requirement, and if you want the work you have to go to your staff and say that everyone has to do this for "the greater good". This happened to us before. As soon as contract ended I offered staff choice to leave or stay with union. About 70% choice to leave until the next contract required them to join again.

Sorry. I am obviously still stressed - my replies are way too long! Verbosity is an affliction

Thoie

I have a personal dislike of the TEEU - while it may be beside the point, I'm just admitting it upfront

Anyway, I'd ask the TEEU to submit, in writing, their reasoning for insisting that all staff join their union, quoting the necessary legislation that they're calling upon.
Ask them to outline the position (in writing) if individual staff members do not want to join their union.
Ask if there are any other unions that staff can join if they want that will cover their legal obligations as electricians to be members of a union. Get it in writing.
Ask them to provide a "Benefits of membership" leaflet/letter that you can give to employees that inquire about it.

InReality

sounds complicated.

on the other hand you sound like you know as much about it as anyone you could get to advise you !

antoinolachtnai

I think you really need to go and get some expert advice on this. This is really important. I would suggest you and the management of the company find someone friendly who is experienced in this area.

CIF is an employer's/industry body, like IBEC or ISME. It is not a union.

REA might be binding on you but that does not mean that any of your employees needs to be in a union. As a famous example, REA for catering is binding on McDonalds, for instance, but there is little or no union activity. If there is a union, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to negotiate with the union (note: this is a generalisation and not necessarily true in all cases. I do not mean to be controversial)

When you say TEEU rates, i assume you mean REA rates?

Companies do not 'serve' the union. The unions serve the employees.

I am sorry to say this and I hope you are not offended, but you may be seen as a 'soft touch' by the union. Like everyone else, unions are under pressure to bring in money, especially a union like TEEU which has declining paying membership. If they can do a deal with the employer that helps push union membership, they will obviously go for that.

I am certainly not saying that you should not do this deal, or even that it is a bad deal. However, you do have a choice in relation to what is being proposed.

mikemac

Thoie wrote: »

Anyway, I'd ask the TEEU to submit, in writing, their reasoning for insisting that all staff join their union, quoting the necessary legislation that they're calling upon.
Ask them to outline the position (in writing) if individual staff members do not want to join their union.
Ask if there are any other unions that staff can join if they want that will cover their legal obligations as electricians to be members of a union. Get it in writing.
Ask them to provide a "Benefits of membership" leaflet/letter that you can give to employees that inquire about it.

+1
The Union is losing paid up members. They need to recruit more and quickly lest the officials lose their jobs.

TEEU have administration support that you simply do not have so get them to pitch to you.
Get them to answer every question you have, if they want to do a presentation to staff they can arrange this.....after business hours!
If the staff have questions they should get a written reply to these. No staff member should feel forced to go along with the crowd, they don't have to join or they can refuse to join regardless of what everybody else does

Make the TEEU do the work here on investigation, let them answer the questions and justify why you need to work with them.

I know you don't want to spend money but realy the Small Firm Association might help you, they have come across this many, many times.
Or even a company in you area, I'd say they are doing the same to all your competitors in your region too so ask them too

rhinestone

hrdummy wrote: »

I work for a small company with about 25 staff and I have fallen into the HR function by default so admit freely that I am out of my depth with the bigger stuff. (daily operations are proceeding well though, thankfully)

Around half the staff do electrical work and 7 staff do small civils and construction, with the remaining staff doing admin & garage work.

A few months back TEEU came a-knocking. (Let me start by saying that if any union actively makes an effort to look after our employees I will meet them with open arms, but if they do nothing other than take their money every month, I will work against them)

But what is happening now is that they are demanding full membership of ALL of our staff, and not just the electrical staff. Here are my questions and please forgive me if they're stupid but the whole Union thing leaves me shaking my head with terminal confusion:

1. I accept that the REA for electrical contractors means that my electrical staff have to belong (and they're mostly happy to join so no big problems there), but why would our construction/admin/garage staff be forced to join when the union doesnt do anything for them. Only electricians rates are stipulated. The travel and other pay issues also dont really apply. TEEU wont be involved in the pay rates of peripheral staff?

2. Dont my construction staff have to belong to CIF.

3. Can a company genuinely serve 2 separate unions (CIF & TEEU)? I'd say about 60% of our income comes from electrical projects if that helps.

4. How do I handle staff swapping between electrical jobs and pure construction jobs (I cant say more than this without jeopardising confidentiality - sorry. All I can say is that constructon staff sometimes support the electrical staff, and sometimes go off and work on non-electrical projects.)

5. If I have staff who dont want to belong to a union but do the same work as someone else who is unionised, how do I implement any changes to pay rates that are negotiated with the union. I can imagine there would be bleating if a non-union guy was left out of an increase, but if the rates of pay were dropped in line with the economy (and we are already payng slightly more than the current stipulated union rates) how can I enforce the change. It took me years to get pay levels established in our company and staff doing the same work are now all paid the same.

6. As I mentioned we already pay more than TEEU rates. If we chose to accept union representation that should mean that the terms of the REA are honoured in their entirety and our staff must be paid less (offset against some of the other benefits in the REA that the staff are currently not getting). How does this work with their terms & conditions of pay?

I understand that logically you may want to refer me to IBEC (not a member) or some consultant to get answers to these questions. We're on the collective bones of our butts financially, and I'd really like to try and avoid any expense. Our company is really struggling.

I am of course generalising - apologies for that - but so my experience has been that consultants tell me the law (which is often open to interpretation) but they hesitate to tell me how to apply it to our own unique situations. So far my exposure to consultants raises more questions than it answers, and I genuinely dont mean to be disparaging. I believe I am the problem wanting people to tell me exactly what to do. I do have an above average knowledge of most of the HR legislation but havent a clue about IR and union involement.

If you read this far without giving up, thank you! And thanks for any advice you can offer.

Have you phoned TEEU and had this converstaion with someone there? If so, what was their response? If not, you might give it a try

hrdummy

Thanks everyone for your contributions. Its been a month - sorry for delay in replying - and there has been absolutely no movement from anyone about anything. I'm just sitting here waiting for the phone to ring.

I remain a bit concerned about contacting the unions a it feels a little like consulting with the fox about the thickness of the wire needed for a chicken coop. My concern is that we have been in business for awhile and have not operated these REA's because we honestly just didnt know about them. I am possibly exposed to claims for back pay which will cripple the company.

I especially want to thank you for reminding me that belonging to an REA doesnt equate to automatic union membership.

I believe my boss is almost convinced to speak to an IR consultant so that's hopeful too.

Thanks again to all of you