College Chaplain

Mickeroo

Yesterday I received an e-mail from the president of the student union in my college going on about how they've been fighting all year long to have a permanent Chaplain re-instated in the college, stressing things like how important spiritual guidance in college is and all that. So the Chaplain has been re-instated. It's all good and well, but the college is an IT, I would expect somewhere like Maynooth to have chaplain and that, but it just strikes me as odd that an institute of technology should have a chaplain in this day and age?? Is this a common thing? If I'm struggling with my studies or personal issues I'll go talk to the college councillor not a priest.

antiskeptic

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yesterday I received an e-mail from the president of the student union in my college going on about how they've been fighting all year long to have a permanent Chaplain re-instated in the college, stressing things like how important spiritual guidance in college is and all that. So the Chaplain has been re-instated. It's all good and well, but the college is an IT, I would expect somewhere like Maynooth to have chaplain and that, but it just strikes me as odd that an institute of technology should have a chaplain in this day and age?? Is this a common thing? If I'm struggling with my studies or personal issues I'll go talk to the college councillor not a priest.

That's what you, a person who doesn't consider that there's a spiritual dimension to themselves, would do. What about other people who are unlike you in that regard?

I don't see what an 'institute of technology' has to do with it - unless you're suggesting that technically minded people aren't spiritual. In which case I'd point you to me - a mechanical engineer by trade - and millons similar to me.

GLaDOS

Is it specifically Christian or a more general, multi denominational thing? If it's the latter it wouldn't bother me certainly, that's how it's done in DCU.

Mickeroo

Well the college is multi-denominational. I was just wondering was it a common thing in colleges.

Fair point antiskeptic

me_right_one

Yea its usual. The chaplain is much more than a priest, and it doesn't have to be somebody that overtly religious either. You said you would turn to the college councillor, well a Chaplain kindov is a college councillor. What if someone was bullying you, or robbing your stuff, and the admin wouldnt listen? At least have someone to spill your emotional guts to in confidentiality with a Chaplain

Mickeroo

me_right_one wrote: »

Yea its usual. The chaplain is much more than a priest, and it doesn't have to be somebody that overtly religious either. You said you would turn to the college councillor, well a Chaplain kindov is a college councillor. What if someone was bullying you, or robbing your stuff, and the admin wouldnt listen? At least have someone to spill your emotional guts to in confidentiality with a Chaplain

Our Chaplain is a priest, and we have a councillr aswell who's job it is to help students with their problems.

Zillah

My first thought is to have a letter published in the college paper/newsletter demanding that we have a Rabbi, Pastafarian, Scientologist and an Imam. After all, we wouldn't want to favour Christians just because they're the majority now would we?


Sad to see really. To think, with a bit of effort they could use that money to have a real counsellor, with qualifications and everything. Ideally one that didn't choose to dedicate their life to a magic man in the sky. Priests giving life advice always struck me as more than a little ironic, considering that their entire lifestyle is about escapism.

Mandatory kiddie-fiddling joke: They won't want to work in third level anyway.

Zillah

antiskeptic wrote: »

That's what you, a person who doesn't consider that there's a spiritual dimension to themselves, would do. What about other people who are unlike you in that regard?

They can go to their priest, Rabbi or pot-smoking-guru at home if they like. Church-State separation demands we not hire a priest with public funding. What makes all you religious people feel so bloody entitled I'll never know.

Daftendirekt

antiskeptic wrote: »

That's what you, a person who doesn't consider that there's a spiritual dimension to themselves, would do. What about other people who are unlike you in that regard?

I don't see what an 'institute of technology' has to do with it - unless you're suggesting that technically minded people aren't spiritual. In which case I'd point you to me - a mechanical engineer by trade - and millons similar to me.

In that case, perhaps our ITs should also offer Reiki healing and chakra cleansing services. Maybe throw in some past life regression, too.

Mickeroo

Zillah wrote: »

My first thought is to have a letter published in the college paper/newsletter demanding that we have a Rabbi, Pastafarian, Scientologist and an Imam. After all, we wouldn't want to favour Christians just because they're the majority now would we?


Sad to see really. To think, with a bit of effort they could use that money to have a real counsellor, with qualifications and everything. Ideally one that didn't choose to dedicate their life to a magic man in the sky. Priests giving life advice always struck me as more than a little ironic, considering that their entire lifestyle is about escapism.

Mandatory kiddie-fiddling joke: They won't want to work in third level anyway.

There is a fully qualified counsellor aswell, thats why i think the Chaplain is a little superfluous(sp?). Fair point on the Rabbi and all that.

Truley

I crossed paths with the college chaplaincy many times in my college years for various reasons. First of all the chaplain is not necessarily a priest, and they are non-denominational. You can have Islamic, Jewish, Scientology chaplains if you wish. Though I never used them for councelling services it seems to me the work they do is beneficial to alot of students, and the demand for them is certainly there. It's just a different type of student service on top of the many others, counselling, STI clinic, events society etc The college also had lots of college sponsored religious societies, Islamic, Christian, Buddist. So it's not like the college was promoting/pushing a single religon.

So what if a student prefers to speak to a religious advisor instead of the usual counsellor. What ever keeps you sane as the saying goes. I would never begrudge my fellow students a helpful and unharmful service just because I don't share their same belief system.

magicbastarder

Truley wrote: »

So what if a student prefers to speak to a religious advisor instead of the usual counsellor. What ever keeps you sane as the saying goes. I would never begrudge my fellow students a helpful and unharmful service just because I don't share their same belief system.

+1
the benefit of the chaplain is what the students get out of it; if (s)he provides a service the students welcome, well and good. if, however, it's just there to tick a box, or is not used, my concerns would be based more on the waste of budget than anything else.

panda100

This is something that really irked me while in UCD.
I think the use of chaplains to guide students in university is completely inappropriate and quite damaging.

In UCD there was two student advisors assigned to each school. One was always a chaplain. In the medical school where I was there was thousands of students from all nationalities and backgrounds.
A lot of students would see these advisors If they had failed an exam or needed help with an academic issue. I went to see the chaplain after I failed one of my first exam. After telling him about what a good little Christian I was and my trips to Lourdes,he spoke to the dean on my behalf about my exam result and I was given a third chance to sit the exam. Im sure this kinda stuff is still going on.

I would rather see a full time psychiatrist or more counsellers in UCD than pay these chaplains wages. Especially considering how underfunded and understaffed the mental health services was.

I have always been very vocal about my opposition to the 'Please Talk' campaign in UCD which has now gone nationwide to all the uni's, with massive funding from the government. This fruitless campaign was set up by a chaplain in UCD. While Im sure his motives were sincere he is not a trained professional and isn't equipped to roll out campaigns that deals with serious depression and suicide problems in colleges throughout Ireland.

Another thing that made me very uneasy was the arts chaplains dominate role in the UCD fashion show. Auditions were held every year where the ugly girls were turfed out early on. Every year there was an underwear section where 18 year old girls would be walking the runway in suspenders, of which inevitably there would be a photo of The Sun the next day.

All in all my experiences of chaplains in UCD was not good at all.

topper75

Mickeroo wrote: »

Is this a common thing?

It is a common thing. UL has a CofI guy and an RC guy. NUIG has one.

Mickeroo wrote: »

If I'm struggling with my studies or personal issues I'll go talk to the college councillor not a priest.

So a non-issue then? I'm wondering why you posted now.

panda100 wrote: »

dominate role in the UCD fashion show. ..Every year there was an underwear section where 18 year old girls would be walking the runway in suspenders

Why isn't this position openly advertised?:mad:

Seriously, it doesn't affect non-religious students and you can't expect everyone to benefit from everything the college provides. I wouldn't borrow books from the engineering section of the library, but I wouldn't call to have funding withdrawn at the same time.

This smacks of atheist militancy and is merely the other side of the religious zealot coin.

Kazuma

It's the bloody chaiplancy newsletters that we get subjected to in NUIM that really piss me off, I've no problem with the chaiplancy being there, but I don't appreciate mass mailing religious mumbo jumbo to everyone in the college.

bnt

In three years at UCD I think I saw the RC chaplain twice, both speaking at orientation days. If I ever have dealings with him, I think I'll be OK, since I'd know straight away if he was trying anything funny. If he helps people regardless of their religion or lack thereof, I have no problem with that.

I didn't know much about UCD's history before I started, such as its origins as the "Catholic University of Ireland". It might have made me question going there, but I saw little to concern me other than too many references to Cardinal Newman, the first Rector, who may soon be Canonized by His Popeness. You wouldn't know it by walking around Belfield which is, these days, better known as the Chlamydia Capital of Ireland.

rainbow kirby

panda100 wrote: »

I would rather see a full time psychiatrist or more counsellers in UCD than pay these chaplains wages. Especially considering how underfunded and understaffed the mental health services was.

+1

Mental health services are desperately underfunded (in all colleges, not just UCD), surely the money used to pay chaplains would be a lot better spent on proper mental health professionals.

Truley

rainbow kirby wrote: »

+1

Mental health services are desperately underfunded (in all colleges, not just UCD), surely the money used to pay chaplains would be a lot better spent on proper mental health professionals.

People need chaplains and people need counsellors. It's not fair to drop one in favour for the other just because you don't think their services are valid. Alot of people have and still do receive alot of help from the chaplaincy (myself included,) so clearly the resources are not going to waste. Alot of people would argue that we shouldn't have to fund other students counselling sessions or STI exams either.

nozzferrahhtoo

I would be interesting to know which IT this is and who the re-instatement went though.... though I understand completely if you want to tell me this by PM

Mickeroo

PM sent

strobe

Truley wrote: »

People need chaplains and people need counsellors. It's not fair to drop one in favour for the other just because you don't think their services are valid. Alot of people have and still do receive alot of help from the chaplaincy (myself included,) so clearly the resources are not going to waste. Alot of people would argue that we shouldn't have to fund other students counselling sessions or STI exams either.

STI's are real........

Truley

strobe wrote: »

STI's are real........

Did I say otherwise? ....

Ickle Magoo

Truley wrote: »

People need chaplains and people need counsellors. It's not fair to drop one in favour for the other just because you don't think their services are valid. Alot of people have and still do receive alot of help from the chaplaincy (myself included,) so clearly the resources are not going to waste. Alot of people would argue that we shouldn't have to fund other students counselling sessions or STI exams either.

But surely a wee wander around any area will reveal a wealth of religious or spiritual guidance to be had in local churches, paying for the services of a counsellor is quite often just not possible for students. I think the funds would be far better spent paying for support that is not otherwise available to many students rather than just adding to the multitude of religious leaders in the area.

Truley

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

But surely a wee wander around any area will reveal a wealth of religious or spiritual guidance to be had in local churches, paying for the services of a counsellor is quite often just not possible for students. I think the funds would be far better spent paying for support that is not otherwise available to many students rather than just adding to the multitude of religious leaders in the area.

Well I can't speak for all colleges but I know in UCD while I was there the mental health service was an umbrella term that consisted of a liaison between a number of different bodies, the counsellors, college doctors, student advisors, welfare officers and chaplains. Before a student can avail of the college counselling services they must first be referred to it by one of the above. Alot of students, (particularly foreign or exchange students) feel more confortable liaising with a Chaplain as a first 'port of call.' Or sometimes a student doesn't need to see the college psychiatrist at all and talking to the Chaplain is enough.

On two seperate occasions a classmate of mine died and both times the Chaplaincy liaised with the students. This included the organisation of memorial services and booklets, liaising with the necessary religous leader and providing their room for hosting the afters of the funeral. As well as that they organised informal group and individual counselling sessions with the option of referral to the college psychologist if people felt they needed it.

When my own mother was dying the first thing I did was contact my chaplain, firstly because from previous contact I knew and liked the guy, secondly because I didn't need a psychologist, or an academic advisor, or a nurse, I needed an all encompassing supporter that would vouch for me in all these areas while I sorted my sh*t out, as well as provide emotional support and guidance. He knew I was an athiest and it wasn't an issue, they help all students who look for it. To this day I am incredibly thankful for the support I got from my college chaplaincy, and the support I know they gave my peers and classmates.

As well as that they offer alot of other practical services such as student specific volunteer programmes, religious work abroad programmes, student pilgrimmages, student societies etc. Since they are services aimed at and required by students it makes sense to have them as part of the university/college no? And yes maybe they can get alot of the services outside of the campus but you can say the same about most of the services provided by a University.

Ickle Magoo

I appreciate chaplains will of course offer services for those that are religious to avail of and can help with bereavement and funerals - that's their job but surely they don't have to be a campus representative for all other issues to do that? Nor to offer various religiously themed programmes nor charity trips abroad? I still think a college or university should provide support for all it's students, not just a religiously affiliated support for certain students and others can pop along to them as need be, if they don't mind the affiliation and if they are lucky enough that their chaplain is going to be as open minded as yours was - there are at least as many stories about students who weren't and surely that's not a risk worth taking.

My university had both representatives for various religions and a generic counselling service which was able to refer students to various other bodies if needs be which I think is a great system that caters for pretty much everyone, however, if the issue is funding a chaplain or someone who will offer support to all students without any accompanying assumptions of religious affiliation or moral judgement, I think the latter would be a superior system. Charging all students to pay for the services of someone that has a vested interest in a particular religion and percentage of the student body when such people are common place in every town doesn't strike me as a particularly wise way to spend limited funds.

Ickle Magoo

Linkee no workee - and I'm not sure I understand your point anyway...

axer

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Linkee no workee - and I'm not sure I understand your point anyway...

I think the point was click on the link for facebook layouts.

Handsome Bob

panda100 wrote: »

A lot of students would see these advisors If they had failed an exam or needed help with an academic issue. I went to see the chaplain after I failed one of my first exam. After telling him about what a good little Christian I was and my trips to Lourdes,he spoke to the dean on my behalf about my exam result and I was given a third chance to sit the exam. Im sure this kinda stuff is still going on.

Funny how you were willing to bend your own principles for your own needs, but now that you've gotten what you wanted you're happy to stick the boot in. If you felt that strongly about it you shouldn't have put on a facade.

I would rather see a full time psychiatrist or more counsellers in UCD than pay these chaplains wages. Especially considering how underfunded and understaffed the mental health services was.

I wouldn't say a chaplain earns any where near what a full time fully qualified psychiatrist would. So what do you do, get rid of all the chaplains and replace them with 1 or 2 psychiatrists? How stretched would those psychiatrists be in regards to the sheer amount of workload?

I have always been very vocal about my opposition to the 'Please Talk' campaign in UCD which has now gone nationwide to all the uni's, with massive funding from the government. This fruitless campaign was set up by a chaplain in UCD. While Im sure his motives were sincere he is not a trained professional and isn't equipped to roll out campaigns that deals with serious depression and suicide problems in colleges throughout Ireland.

What makes you think that proper research wasn't put into the campaign just because the founder is a chaplain?

Another thing that made me very uneasy was the arts chaplains dominate role in the UCD fashion show. Auditions were held every year where the ugly girls were turfed out early on. Every year there was an underwear section where 18 year old girls would be walking the runway in suspenders, of which inevitably there would be a photo of The Sun the next day.

You have to help me out here, 4 years in UCD and I've never heard of this. What exact role does the Arts chaplain play in these preceedings? Is he the lead judge, turning away the unattractive women?

ColmDawson

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Funny how you were willing to bend your own principles for your own needs, but now that you've gotten what you wanted you're happy to stick the boot in. If you felt that strongly about it you shouldn't have put on a facade.

I may be wrong, but I gathered from a previous post that she used to be a Christian.

Truley

I don't understand why people would call for the abolishment of chaplaincy with the idea that it would result in better resources for counselling/ mental health in Universities.

a) Chaplaincy is not a substitute for mental health services, they're not really the same thing. People use it for its own unique service.

b) If it was to be abolished you would be taking away a service affecting hundreds even thousands of students. Students who would then have to seek out alternatives such as welfare officers and counselliors. Consequently putting more strain on these already strained services when they would have been happier dealing with a chaplain.

c) Thirdly the very existance of the chaplaincy is not siphoning off funds from the conventional mental health service, it compliments it. It is an alternative port of call for students to seek guidance and advice, students that may not necessarily need to see a conventional counsellor/psychologist. If you wanted to reduce unnecessary expenditure to raise funds for welfare services, there are better places to start. How about the 1,000s of euro spent on ents funding, class rep weekends, posters, stickers,rag week, drinks promotions etc

Fine you may not agree with the religious aspect of it. But ask yourself whether calling for its abolishment is actually about the best interests of the College and its students, or is it more about making a political point? I think taking away a service because you don't agree with the religion is imposing your own views on other people, which is ironically what most athiests complain about religions doing.

ChocolateSauce

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axer

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

More generally, I of course think that not a penny of public money should be spent on chaplins, humanist or otherwise (ideally; but if you do one, you must do them all); that money should go on a qualified professional counselor. If a religious order wishes to volunteer a chaplin, then that's up to them. But they pay to rent an office.

Exactly, this is how it should be. Allowing chaplains rent an office would be already accomodating enough.

Ickle Magoo

What's in the best interest of the college and it's students is to ensure as many as possible find the help on offer available and relevant, to them. I am not so worried about the people who specifically want christian guidance because there has to be a million churches on this island but what service is available for those who aren't and I'm not sure whether approaching a chaplain regarding sexual issues or whatever is in their best interest; or whether the resources are better spent on improving facilities for those who don't have a vested interest in one section of the student body.

If the church wishes a greater presence on campus there is no reason why they can't pay rent and have their own wee private offices there. I don't think having them as paid campus representatives and an expected point of contact is in all the students best interest.

magicbastarder

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I am not so worried about the people who specifically want christian guidance because there has to be a million churches on this island

much easier to approach someone on campus who is used to dealing with student issues than it is to approach a parish priest in a nearby parish; especially since a lot of the issues presenting to the chaplain would be college-related, and the chaplain would automatically have access to communication channels which someone external would not. plus, i imagine there would be confidentiality issues at play, where other faculty staff can talk to the chaplain where they would not be able to talk to a parish priest.

i've no issue with having a chaplain on faculty as long as he or she proves their use, and there is no degradation to other services.
i had contact with the chaplain in UCD once, and he was able to be of use in that particular situation without religion in any way, shape or form being raised.

mehfesto

Very timely article in the Indo today:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dcu-staff-embroiled-in-mail-dispute-over-prayer-for-president-2263319.html

Ickle Magoo

magicbastarder wrote: »

much easier to approach someone on campus who is used to dealing with student issues than it is to approach a parish priest in a nearby parish; especially since a lot of the issues presenting to the chaplain would be college-related, and the chaplain would automatically have access to communication channels which someone external would not. plus, i imagine there would be confidentiality issues at play, where other faculty staff can talk to the chaplain where they would not be able to talk to a parish priest.

i've no issue with having a chaplain on faculty as long as he or she proves their use, and there is no degradation to other services.
i had contact with the chaplain in UCD once, and he was able to be of use in that particular situation without religion in any way, shape or form being raised.

Of course, but my point was there is not really anything a chaplain currently does that a more secular council could not and if a religious element is specifically required, a church is guaranteed to only be stones throw away. Ireland is fast becoming a multi-cultural and multi-religious country, I'm not sure only having one religious representative is fair or in the best interests of every student currently having to pay for them. I would also worry that someone whom the college views as a point of contact for students would have specific views on homosexuality, abortion, etc - while they may be fantastic for anything which is in their arena of expertise I imagine the need for funereal directions and so on are minimal compared with other issues they may not deal with, or be able to deal with, appropriately.

philologos

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yesterday I received an e-mail from the president of the student union in my college going on about how they've been fighting all year long to have a permanent Chaplain re-instated in the college, stressing things like how important spiritual guidance in college is and all that. So the Chaplain has been re-instated. It's all good and well, but the college is an IT, I would expect somewhere like Maynooth to have chaplain and that, but it just strikes me as odd that an institute of technology should have a chaplain in this day and age?? Is this a common thing? If I'm struggling with my studies or personal issues I'll go talk to the college councillor not a priest.

Every university that I know of has a chaplaincy. It's fair enough that you mightn't believe so that it might be of limited value to you. However, a university is meant to consider the needs of all students, and many students do benefit from the chaplaincy, even if you find that you don't have a need or a desire for it.

Queens University in Belfast, actually have a humanist chaplain as well as numerous other Christian chaplains. Perhaps that argument may be a better one rather than saying no chaplaincy at all.

Mickeroo

Jakkass wrote: »

Every university that I know of has a chaplaincy. It's fair enough that you mightn't believe so that it might be of limited value to you. However, a university is meant to consider the needs of all students, and many students do benefit from the chaplaincy, even if you find that you don't have a need or a desire for it.

Queens University in Belfast, actually have a humanist chaplain as well as numerous other Christian chaplains. Perhaps that argument may be a better one rather than saying no chaplaincy at all.

I didn't realise it was so common, but I don't see how having a catholic priest on hand is considering the needs of all students in a multi-denominational campus.

The system at belfast sounds better alright, although probably not practical from a financial point of view at a campus as small as mine.

storm2811

I'd have no problem talking to a preist or chaplain about my problems,they're not there to preach to you or encourage you to pray or anything.
They can be good listeners aswell you know but they're there more the Christian students I suppose.

philologos

panda100 wrote: »

A lot of students would see these advisors If they had failed an exam or needed help with an academic issue. I went to see the chaplain after I failed one of my first exam. After telling him about what a good little Christian I was and my trips to Lourdes,he spoke to the dean on my behalf about my exam result and I was given a third chance to sit the exam. Im sure this kinda stuff is still going on.

You chose to tell him how much of a good Catholic you were. Was there any reason to believe that the chaplain wouldn't have helped you if you weren't?

You seem to be saying that this is wrong, but this is something that you availed of and partook in.

Sounds a little spurious to me.

mehfesto

Jakkass wrote: »

You chose to tell him how much of a good Catholic you were. Was there any reason to believe that the chaplain wouldn't have helped you if you weren't?

You seem to be saying that this is wrong, but this is something that you availed of and partook in.

Sounds a little spurious to me.

Surely the offer a third repeat shouldn't just be set aside for the religious. I'm not condoning it, but if all it takes is belief to save me repeating a year/paying 6k more, then I'll believe anything to suit me.

That said, the chaplaincy should hold no say in academic affairs.

philologos

mehfesto wrote: »

Surely the offer a third repeat shouldn't just be set aside for the religious. I'm not condoning it, but if all it takes is belief to save me repeating a year/paying 6k more, then I'll believe anything to suit me.

Who says it was set aside only for believers? - If it was I would accept that as being wrong.

What has been said is that:
1) She went to the chaplain, and explained that she was a good Catholic in the intention that she would get to repeat her exam.
2) The chaplain gave her the chance to resit the exam.

What the difficulty arises in is the leap from 2 to 3 which is:
3) Therefore, because she said what a good Catholic she was, the chaplain gave her a special allowance to resit the exam.

This seems to be unfounded unless we have more detail.

Kooli

If the chaplains provide a good and necessary service in colleges, and are found to be genuinely helpful to students of the college of all faiths, then I don't see how we can argue to get rid of them in order to put more pressure on an overburdened counselling service.

They are totally different services and you can't replace one with the other. As someone said earlier in the thread, if you're going through a tough time or if you're bereaved or if you're a bit lonely, sometimes you don't need therapy! You might just need someone to chat to, that person doesn't have to be a psychologist!

Sometimes chaplains provide a much-needed sense of 'community' in college too. I know in TCD you can go to the chaplaincy one day a week for sandwiches and coffee.

I'm an atheist by the way, but I just think that no good would come of gettign rid of these services.

Would we argue that public money should not fund 'single parent support groups' in college because not every student is a single parent? Or should they stop funding bereavement support groups because only a small portion of the college population are bereaved?
Yes the chaplaincy isn't for everyone, but they do provide a great service for a lot of students, and that should be enough.

If you want to campaign that a secular equivalent is needed, then fine, go ahead, but there's no reason to get rid of the religious ones.

axer

Kooli wrote: »

Would we argue that public money should not fund 'single parent support groups' in college because not every student is a single parent? Or should they stop funding bereavement support groups because only a small portion of the college population are bereaved?

I think the point is funding should be cut for the hypothetical 'christian single parent support group' or 'christian bereavement support group'.

Why can't we just use secular counsellors instead or chaplains? It would be very easy to hire a counsellor and give them the remit of more than just straight forward counselling sessions which would include organising community type of events. This way it would show the service is for more than just specific faiths. It seem stupid to pay a number of different chaplains for each of the main religious faiths (and for those for think rationally) when they could hire the equivalent number of secular counsellors instead - think economies of scale.

Why would a woman who has just gotten pregnant, for example, visit a christian chaplain (or one of any faith) when that chaplain will be biased to her situation. Even if the chaplain themselves was not actually biased the fact that they would be seen as being religious could potentially turn off such a potential client. This hypothetical woman should be able to see a cousellor instead to help her get through worries and issues.

The point here is that cousellors would cover everyone whereas chaplains can't.

Also there are a huge number of counsellors out there so there would not be any problems finding ones to hire.

Kooli

axer wrote: »

I think the point is funding should be cut for the hypothetical 'christian single parent support group' or 'christian bereavement support group'.

Why can't we just use secular counsellors instead or chaplains? It would be very easy to hire a counsellor and give them the remit of more than just straight forward counselling sessions which would include organising community type of events. This way it would show the service is for more than just specific faiths. It seem stupid to pay a number of different chaplains for each of the main religious faiths (and for those for think rationally) when they could hire the equivalent number of secular counsellors instead - think economies of scale.

Why would a woman who has just gotten pregnant, for example, visit a christian chaplain (or one of any faith) when that chaplain will be biased to her situation. Even if the chaplain themselves was not actually biased the fact that they would be seen as being religious could potentially turn off such a potential client. This hypothetical woman should be able to see a cousellor instead to help her get through worries and issues.

The point here is that cousellors would cover everyone whereas chaplains can't.


Also there are a huge number of counsellors out there so there would not be any problems finding ones to hire.

I kind of see your point but as a college counsellor myself, I do not have the time to see students who just need a chat, or a bit of support, but I can see that these students do need someone. I am a mental health professional, my time is already stretched dealing with the significant mental health issues in the student population, without expanding my remit. I know you say you could just hire more counsellors, but frankly that is not our job.

The 'secular chaplain' idea makes sense to a certain extent, but it does seem like your proposal for it comes from an anti-religion stance, rather that a belief that there is a real need for it.

People in times of need want to speak to someone who comes from their own frame of reference. Maybe a pregnant girl will want to speak to someone who shares their religious beliefs! And no chaplain I know would steer her away from abortion, just like no counsellor I know would steer her towards it.

Ickle Magoo

If there was more money being ploughed into counsellors because there wasn't money going to pay chaplaincy then counselling services wouldn't be so over-burdened? I think as long as all students are guaranteed good service and having a campus chaplaincy is not just a sentimental throw-back then it isn't an issue at all, obviously - but if that were the case then the position would have no detractors.

There is no reason why an individual (trained counsellor or no) without religious affiliation can't offer tea & buns &/or just a listening ear. At least people of other denominations or none wouldn't be put off using such a service nor get the impression that the well-being of one denomination is given priority. That's not to say there is no place for religious representatives on campus but whether all students should be forced to fund one particular denomination strikes me as being very old fashioned.

panda100

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I wouldn't say a chaplain earns any where near what a full time fully qualified psychiatrist would. So what do you do, get rid of all the chaplains and replace them with 1 or 2 psychiatrists? How stretched would those psychiatrists be in regards to the sheer amount of workload?

When I finished in UCD two years ago, there was only one psychiatrist available to students for 5 hours on a Tuesday afternoon. If you wanted to see him outside these hours you would have to pay privately. He was constantly booked out for weeks, and months in advance.
This is absolutely awful considering the mental health crisis that is affecting Irish young people.

I don't think we should get rid of all the chaplains but there shouldn't be a chaplain attached to each school. Its a waste of money and resources that could be used better elsewhere. There should be two, at most,that cater for the whole college.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

What makes you think that proper research wasn't put into the campaign just because the founder is a chaplain?

Because the campaign is completely ineffective, anyone who has any knowledge of mental health will tell you that.
I did a research project in my third year of college under Prof.Kevin Malone, Ireland leading psychiatrist when it comes to mental health and suicide. He was asked to endorse the 'Please Talk' campaign and he couldn't do it as he didn't feel sufficient research was involved in implementing it, and it was all fluff with no substance.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You have to help me out here, 4 years in UCD and I've never heard of this. What exact role does the Arts chaplain play in these preceedings? Is he the lead judge, turning away the unattractive women?

Serious, ya never heard of the arts fashion show?
It was set up by the arts chaplaincy in my first year of college to raise funds for charity. Hundreds would audition each year to take part,but only a special select few were considered attractive enough to make the final cut.
The arts chaplain was fully involved in running the event,promoting it and endorsing its wonderful message of girls walking around wearing nothing and calling it 'fashion':

axer

Kooli wrote: »

I kind of see your point but as a college counsellor myself, I do not have the time to see students who just need a chat, or a bit of support, but I can see that these students do need someone. I am a mental health professional, my time is already stretched dealing with the significant mental health issues in the student population, without expanding my remit. I know you say you could just hire more counsellors, but frankly that is not our job.

I would think it is a counsellors job to support people. Obviously you are over stretched in your work in that you are forced to focus on the bigger cases but there is nothing wrong with hiring other people who could have the time as part of their jobs.

Kooli wrote: »

The 'secular chaplain' idea makes sense to a certain extent, but it does seem like your proposal for it comes from an anti-religion stance, rather that a belief that there is a real need for it.

I am coming from a secular stance where everybody should be taken into account not just the larger groups of faith.

Kooli wrote: »

People in times of need want to speak to someone who comes from their own frame of reference. Maybe a pregnant girl will want to speak to someone who shares their religious beliefs! And no chaplain I know would steer her away from abortion, just like no counsellor I know would steer her towards it.

The problem is that many don't come from the christian or otherwise frame of reference. I wouldn't want to visit a christian chaplain to discuss issues since I would assume since they are christian then they would be more prone to having a christian bias to all problems - whether they do or not. Whether a christian chaplain would steer someone away from abortion or not is irrelevent since it is morally wrong under christianity to have an abortion thus people could assume that the chaplain would be biased and as a result would be hesitant to use their services.

Does anyone know how much chaplains are paid? Would there be a big difference in costs between hiring a counsellor over a chaplain?

philologos

axer wrote: »

Does anyone know how much chaplains are paid? Would there be a big difference in costs between hiring a counsellor over a chaplain?

As far as I know, many of the chaplains are unpaid. There are two main chaplains at my university, and then there are other chaplains for other denominations such as Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Methodism, and so on. There are also links for Jewish and Islamic groups should anyone need them.

axer

Jakkass wrote: »

As far as I know, many of the chaplains are unpaid.

If they are all unfunded then I wouldn't have a problem with them but does anyone know for sure?

philologos

axer wrote: »

If they are all unfunded then I wouldn't have a problem with them but does anyone know for sure?

Not all of them are unfunded, I'm fairly sure that the two main chaplains are paid, as well as the chaplaincy secretary at our university. In respect to other universities I don't know.