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College Chaplain

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Comments

  • #102
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    prinz wrote: »
    Just because it may be a RC chaplain does not mean access or help would be restricted to RC students, or religious students etc etc. That's a nonsense. I don't see why someone who is non-religious could not go to a chaplain but for some sort of childish attempt at a 'fingers to the man' gesture.

    Access and help would obviously not be restricted to particular students, it would simply be of lesser help to other students who do not share the chaplains religious biases. We can avoid these conflicts of faiths by having secular counsellors. I dont see why someone who is religious could not go to a secular counsellor and be refered to a theistic advisor if thats what they actually want or need, thats what is being offered to minority religious anyway.
    prinz wrote: »
    Also laughable is the notion that because something doesn't apply to everyone in the same way it is redundant.

    It is redundant if there is something that applies to everything. Secular counsellors work for everyone. Religious chaplains work primarily for the religions they adhere to.


  • #103
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    prinz wrote: »
    Any ideas of the numbers of students who seek the help of the chaplain at any given university?

    For some reason a certain opinion set here sees the numbers of students who want access to a college chaplain as irrelevant.

    And there is a certain opinion set here who seem incapable of asking the simplest of questions:
    Do these students actually want a chaplain with a religous bias, or is that all they have access to?
    Would they (and the students who wont go because they aren't religiously represented by the chaplain) go to a secular counsellor instead?


  • #104
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    axer wrote: »
    A chaplain is not a counsellor..

    Great point. Hmmm I'm confused why you pointed this out though.
    axer wrote: »
    Can a counsellor not offer that service? A counsellor does not where his/her faith on their sleeve and are trained to offer an unbiased service. A religious chaplin will be trained to spread their religion...

    Chaplains are not missionaries. Nobody who has attested to visiting a chaplain on this thread has described a religion being spread unto them. Have they? Or is that some sort of insecurity on your part?
    axer wrote: »
    Because there are only so much funds. Why not just cater for everybody with a secular service?...

    What happens when a secular service doesn't cater to everybody?
    axer wrote: »
    Discuss it with your priest/religious organisation..

    ..and if someone is away from home? Abroad? Have a query directly relating to the university?
    axer wrote: »
    If you don't have to need a counsellor you may just want someone to talk to which is what a counsellor can provide...

    It's also exactly what a chaplain can provide.
    axer wrote: »
    I have no problems with religious societies or chaplains working for free and I would even agree to a free office space for them to work in. I am against chaplains getting paid when they fundamentally only cater for the religious.

    Once again unsubstantiated nonsense. Willfully dismissing accounts from posters on this very thread because it doesn't agree with the preconceived notions you already hold it seems.
    axer wrote: »
    because an alternative is not being given. Kooli says he/she works as a counsellor but only has time to deal with more serious issues thus we do not know if the people that went to see the chaplain would not have preferred a secular service.

    What happens when the chaplain has gotten the boot and everyone has to go to a 'secular' counsellor? Would we know then how many people who went to the counsellor would have preferred a chaplaincy service?
    axer wrote: »
    Again, why do some chaplains need funding while others operate without getting paid? Why can't religious organisations cater for their flock without using up scarce public funding?

    Providing a public service. Perhaps those chaplains have sponsorship/are part time/ etc. Then it goes to the relevant church authorities and the educational facility to come to some terms. If it comes to a choice between no chaplain and a publicly funded chaplain I'd go publicly funded.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Access and help would obviously not be restricted to particular students, it would simply be of lesser help to other students who do not share the chaplains religious biases. We can avoid these conflicts of faiths by having secular counsellors. I dont see why someone who is religious could not go to a secular counsellor and be refered to a theistic advisor if thats what they actually want or need, thats what is being offered to minority religious anyway..

    I don't see why some can't see a chaplian and be referred to a counsellor/mental health professional if needs be.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    It is redundant if there is something that applies to everything. Secular counsellors work for everyone. Religious chaplains work primarily for the religions they adhere to.

    ...and STD clinics work primarily for the people who need their services. Should every student be taxed to finance these on campus? Again on what basis are 'secular counsellors' deemed to be free fom moral, ethical, faith, personal biases?


  • #105
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    prinz wrote: »
    Great point. Hmmm I'm confused why you pointed this out though.
    because of comments like this:
    prinz wrote: »
    It's also exactly what a chaplain can provide.
    prinz wrote: »
    Chaplains are not missionaries. Nobody who has attested to visiting a chaplain on this thread has described a religion being spread unto them. Have they? Or is that some sort of insecurity on your part?
    So they are completely secular?
    prinz wrote: »
    What happens when a secular service doesn't cater to everybody?
    You mean for people's religious needs? Then they can go see a minister of their faith. If there is a need their church could fund one to be located in the college.
    prinz wrote: »
    ..and if someone is away from home? Abroad? Have a query directly relating to the university?
    There are priests all over the world. I am not against a chaplain being in the university but I think they should be funded by their religious organisation or the faith society in the college.
    prinz wrote: »
    Once again unsubstantiated nonsense. Willfully dismissing accounts from posters on this very thread because it doesn't agree with the preconceived notions you already hold it seems.
    So I guess they are completely secular then? eh?
    prinz wrote: »
    What happens when the chaplain has gotten the boot and everyone has to go to a 'secular' counsellor? Would we know then how many people who went to the counsellor would have preferred a chaplaincy service?
    Why put the word secular in quotes? Everything should start with the basis of being secular and catering for all students.
    prinz wrote: »
    Providing a public service. Perhaps those chaplains have sponsorship/are part time/ etc. Then it goes to the relevant church authorities and the educational facility to come to some terms. If it comes to a choice between no chaplain and a publicly funded chaplain I'd go publicly funded.
    I'd go with using the capable services of a counsellor instead.
    prinz wrote: »
    I don't see why some can't see a chaplian and be referred to a counsellor/mental health professional if needs be.
    Why waste funds on a chaplain if they could be used for extra counsellors.
    prinz wrote: »
    ...and STD clinics work primarily for the people who need their services. Should every student be taxed to finance these on campus? Again on what basis are 'secular counsellors' deemed to be free fom moral, ethical, faith, personal biases?
    Physical and Mental health are universally important. While people's spiritual health is in their heads, so to speak, it is not a problem that is can be universal.

    Maybe those seeking spiritual advice should be directed to the mental health services! Bo0om!


  • #106
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    axer wrote: »
    because of comments like this:

    Are you saying a chaplain cannot be a person to talk to? To discuss issues with?
    axer wrote: »
    So they are completely secular?

    Of course not. Are they masquerading themselves as secular?
    axer wrote: »
    You mean for people's religious needs? Then they can go see a minister of their faith. If there is a need their church could fund one to be located in the college.

    What about health needs? Should the university employ nurses, doctors etc to cater for students?
    axer wrote: »
    Why put the word secular in quotes? Everything should start with the basis of being secular and catering for all students.

    because secularity doesn't cater for all students. Perhaps a student wants someone to discuss a moral faith dilemma..
    axer wrote: »
    I'd go with using the capable services of a counsellor instead..

    Again with the either/or option, when this is not a realistic outcome.
    axer wrote: »
    Because A. a chaplain is not a professional and B. why waste funds on a chaplain if they could be used for extra counsellors...

    Who says the chaplain is not a professional? The chaplain could be a qualified counsellor/psychologist etc. Your question above could be applied to virtually everything.
    axer wrote: »
    Physical and Mental health are universally important. While people's spiritual health is in their heads, so to speak, it is not a problem that is can be universal. Maybe those seeking spiritual advice should be directed to the mental health services!

    ...and there we have it....sums it up really.


  • #107
    equivariant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭equivariant


    Truley wrote: »
    Well I can't speak for all colleges but I know in UCD while I was there the mental health service was an umbrella term that consisted of a liaison between a number of different bodies, the counsellors, college doctors, student advisors, welfare officers and chaplains. Before a student can avail of the college counselling services they must first be referred to it by one of the above. Alot of students, (particularly foreign or exchange students) feel more confortable liaising with a Chaplain as a first 'port of call.' Or sometimes a student doesn't need to see the college psychiatrist at all and talking to the Chaplain is enough.

    On two seperate occasions a classmate of mine died and both times the Chaplaincy liaised with the students. This included the organisation of memorial services and booklets, liaising with the necessary religous leader and providing their room for hosting the afters of the funeral. As well as that they organised informal group and individual counselling sessions with the option of referral to the college psychologist if people felt they needed it.

    When my own mother was dying the first thing I did was contact my chaplain, firstly because from previous contact I knew and liked the guy, secondly because I didn't need a psychologist, or an academic advisor, or a nurse, I needed an all encompassing supporter that would vouch for me in all these areas while I sorted my sh*t out, as well as provide emotional support and guidance. He knew I was an athiest and it wasn't an issue, they help all students who look for it. To this day I am incredibly thankful for the support I got from my college chaplaincy, and the support I know they gave my peers and classmates.

    As well as that they offer alot of other practical services such as student specific volunteer programmes, religious work abroad programmes, student pilgrimmages, student societies etc. Since they are services aimed at and required by students it makes sense to have them as part of the university/college no? And yes maybe they can get alot of the services outside of the campus but you can say the same about most of the services provided by a University.

    I think this post perfectly encapsulates the reasons that the role of 'chaplain' at a third level institute should not be in any way linked to a particular religion. Many people would be uncomfortable approaching a priest for support in the situations that you describe. I certainly would have when I was a student. It would be far superior to have some properly qualified person (irrespective of his/her religious beliefs) occupy the role of first contact for students in need of support. It should be clear that this support is available to students without any religious mumbo-jumbo attached to it. If there is any kind of link between student support and religion, it will inevitably result in some students not availing of it who otherwise might


  • #108
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    prinz wrote: »
    I don't see why some can't see a chaplian and be referred to a counsellor/mental health professional if needs be.

    Religious conflict of faith. The non-religious and the non-represented-religious may not even go to a chaplain if they are of a particular religion, and so may not get to see a counsellor. Far better to cater for everyone from teh start, and offer more secualr counsellors who can refer people on to religious advisors if needs be.
    prinz wrote: »
    ...and STD clinics work primarily for the people who need their services. Should every student be taxed to finance these on campus?

    Yes, std clinics are the secular alternative to religious groups telling you not to have sex, so they should be funded.
    prinz wrote: »
    Again on what basis are 'secular counsellors' deemed to be free fom moral, ethical, faith, personal biases?

    On the basis that that is part of their training. Sure they are still human and they will be unable to hold back all opinions, but they will at least try to be objective and give the best possible help for a student. A religious chaplain will not even have to try, as their religious affiliations is what got them the job in the first place.


  • #109
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    I can't imagine a situation where someone goes to a chaplain because a secular counsellor is unavailable. When I said we were overstretched as college counsellors, I should have added that no one who wants to see a counsellor is ever turned away, and I imagine that's the same for all colleges.

    I believe that anyone who seeks support from the chaplain is going there because that is exactly the type of support they are looking for. So to paint it otherwise is frankly BS. Removing that type of support for those people who seek it isn't going to be any help to those who never looked for it in the first place. They are not in opposition to each other, it's not like there's a big fund for 'chaplains and counsellors' and more chaplains means fewer counsellors. It just doesn't work like that.

    I don't think there would EVER be enough funding to allow counsellors to be available for chats and cups of tea for every student who is a bit lonely or isolated or confused. I don't see the problem with having another service there who can provide that service to anyone who wants it.


  • #110
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    prinz wrote: »
    Are you saying a chaplain cannot be a person to talk to? To discuss issues with?
    A chaplain is fundamentally biased.
    prinz wrote: »
    Of course not. Are they masquerading themselves as secular?
    You and others are trying to paint the picture that they are for everyone.
    prinz wrote: »
    What about health needs? Should the university employ nurses, doctors etc to cater for students?
    If there was a need. Many educational institutes do have nurses etc.
    prinz wrote: »
    because secularity doesn't cater for all students. Perhaps a student wants someone to discuss a moral faith dilemma..
    Fundamentally secular services do cater for everyone.
    prinz wrote: »
    Again with the either/or option, when this is not a realistic outcome.
    Maybe it would be if resources were not wasted on chaplains.
    prinz wrote: »
    Who says the chaplain is not a professional? The chaplain could be a qualified counsellor/psychologist etc. Your question above could be applied to virtually everything.
    They may be but my understanding is it is not a prerequisite.


  • #111
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Kooli wrote: »
    I can't imagine a situation where someone goes to a chaplain because a secular counsellor is unavailable. When I said we were overstretched as college counsellors, I should have added that no one who wants to see a counsellor is ever turned away, and I imagine that's the same for all colleges.

    I believe that anyone who seeks support from the chaplain is going there because that is exactly the type of support they are looking for. So to paint it otherwise is frankly BS. Removing that type of support for those people who seek it isn't going to be any help to those who never looked for it in the first place. They are not in opposition to each other, it's not like there's a big fund for 'chaplains and counsellors' and more chaplains means fewer counsellors. It just doesn't work like that.
    But there is one budget for the institute and a chaplain takes some out of that where it could be used elsewhere for services such as counselling. I am merely pointing out an example of where it could be used.
    Kooli wrote: »
    I don't think there would EVER be enough funding to allow counsellors to be available for chats and cups of tea for every student who is a bit lonely or isolated or confused. I don't see the problem with having another service there who can provide that service to anyone who wants it.
    but there is enough funding to not only allow chaplains to do that but also give them time to perform religious ceremonies and other religious acts. It shows the need for more counsellors I would think.


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  • #112
    Plowman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Plowman


    This post has been deleted.


  • #113
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Plowman wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I never said that a chaplain can not provide counsel. My point is if you are going to pay for something then why not hire a counsellor instead? Nobody here seems to know how much a chaplain (and their secretary) costs educational institutions but it would be interesting to see if it would be a cost that could be better spent on the likes of counsellors.

    A counsellor doesn't have to give a diagnosis - they are not psychologists or psychiatrists. They can provide the same support as a chaplain in a secular way and I and many others would be more comfortable in a secular environment.


  • #114
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    axer wrote: »
    I never said that a chaplain can not provide counsel. My point is if you are going to pay for something then why not hire a counsellor instead? Nobody here seems to know how much a chaplain (and their secretary) costs educational institutions but it would be interesting to see if it would be a cost that could be better spent on the likes of counsellors.

    Again though Chaplains are not the same as counsellors. A person doesn't go to a chaplain for the same reasons they would go to a counsellor. It is its own unique service that encompasses counselling, counsultation, religious services, community gathering, religious student-specific travel programmes (similar to USIT or Volunteers Overseas.)

    Yes a chaplain, while available to all students, does have a bias because of it's religious ethos. But so what? So does Cumann na Gaeilge. It's a service for a particular niche of people in the college who want and need it. It doesn't invade on other people. It's very existance doesn't take away from the rest of the student services. If penny pinching was the issue then I can think of a thousand and one different useless expenses before the chaplaincy that could be cut from the college budget.

    However the issue really isn't about money is it? The problem most people have is the fact that it is religious. And the fact that it is given the sway it has, giving it a sort of permanency. So that poses the question of what you think should be done with it. Should chaplains be fired? Should the whole concept be abolished overnight? Should it be put to vote?

    In my opinion, and this is speaking as an athiest.. the chaplaincy is there, it has been established for years now, it provides a good service, a service that people need and want. Whatever about people's opinion on chaplaincy, I think that the negatives of forcing its closure far outweigh the benefits. You would only be enforcing your personal beliefs on (a very large number) of people, on something that doesn't even negatively affect you. It's trying to make a point for the sake of making a point, rather then any genuine concern for the welfare of your fellow students.


  • #115
    zoomtard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 125 ✭✭zoomtard


    panda100 wrote: »
    I have always been very vocal about my opposition to the 'Please Talk' campaign in UCD which has now gone nationwide to all the uni's, with massive funding from the government. This fruitless campaign was set up by a chaplain in UCD. While Im sure his motives were sincere he is not a trained professional and isn't equipped to roll out campaigns that deals with serious depression and suicide problems in colleges throughout Ireland.

    The Catholic chaplains in UCD are exceptionally well qualified. I have no idea what you mean by saying they are "not a trained professional", unless you simply mean you don't respect their training. There was once a day even the most aggressive anti-clerics would acknowledge that Jesuits, whatever their faith conviction and general impact on society, were well educated. :)
    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    +1

    Mental health services are desperately underfunded (in all colleges, not just UCD), surely the money used to pay chaplains would be a lot better spent on proper mental health professionals.

    The only chaplaincy service in Ireland paid for by the college is Trinity. (For really good reasons in Trinity's own historic identity)

    Disclaimer: I actually am a (non-Catholic) college chaplain at a National University campus.


  • #116
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hi zoomtard -- long time no see :)
    zoomtard wrote: »
    The only chaplaincy service in Ireland paid for by the college is Trinity.
    Yes, but I gather that most or all of the other colleges in the country charge the students directly for the chaplain.


  • #117
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Truley wrote: »
    Again though Chaplains are not the same as counsellors. A person doesn't go to a chaplain for the same reasons they would go to a counsellor. It is its own unique service that encompasses counselling, counsultation, religious services, community gathering, religious student-specific travel programmes (similar to USIT or Volunteers Overseas.)
    So the only two things really a counsellor wouldn't do from your list is religious are religious based.
    Truley wrote: »
    Yes a chaplain, while available to all students, does have a bias because of it's religious ethos. But so what? So does Cumann na Gaeilge. It's a service for a particular niche of people in the college who want and need it. It doesn't invade on other people. It's very existance doesn't take away from the rest of the student services. If penny pinching was the issue then I can think of a thousand and one different useless expenses before the chaplaincy that could be cut from the college budget.
    The college should be catering for everyone first and using funds, if a chaplain costs the college, for more secular services.
    Truley wrote: »
    However the issue really isn't about money is it? The problem most people have is the fact that it is religious. And the fact that it is given the sway it has, giving it a sort of permanency. So that poses the question of what you think should be done with it. Should chaplains be fired? Should the whole concept be abolished overnight? Should it be put to vote?
    It depends whether chaplains cost the college money. If they do then the funds should be removed and they can be funded directly by the students that want the service or through the faith societies etc or through religious institutions. This could be a phased change.
    Truley wrote: »
    In my opinion, and this is speaking as an athiest.. the chaplaincy is there, it has been established for years now, it provides a good service, a service that people need and want. Whatever about people's opinion on chaplaincy, I think that the negatives of forcing its closure far outweigh the benefits. You would only be enforcing your personal beliefs on (a very large number) of people, on something that doesn't even negatively affect you. It's trying to make a point for the sake of making a point, rather then any genuine concern for the welfare of your fellow students.
    Nope, having a service like chaplaincy (if funded by the college) being biased to the religious is not fair on those that are not religious or those of other religions.


  • #118
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    zoomtard wrote: »
    The only chaplaincy service in Ireland paid for by the college is Trinity. (For really good reasons in Trinity's own historic identity)

    Disclaimer: I actually am a (non-Catholic) college chaplain at a National University campus.
    So how does the funding from students work? Is it only from students that want the service/are religious? Can a student opt out of paying for the chaplain?


  • #119
    johnfás
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭johnfás


    axer wrote: »
    So how does the funding from students work? Is it only from students that want the service/are religious? Can a student opt out of paying for the chaplain?

    I'm a healthy person with plenty of money for my own private health provision if and when it is needed. However, I pay for the provision of a student health service for those who live away from home and cannot afford it. Perhaps I should be able to opt out from funding that as well? I'm also pretty able bodied and perhaps resent the notion of my money funding facilities for those who are not so able bodied - wheel chair ramps are a fairly expensive investment after all. The reality is we live in a society with lots of people with different needs. A university campus should be a safe place which facilitates people of different backgrounds in their own development.
    axer wrote: »
    Nope, having a service like chaplaincy (if funded by the college) being biased to the religious is not fair on those that are not religious or those of other religions.

    Perhaps, if that were the only form of student support services provided by a university. In reality, universities provide a range of support services for students which seek to facilitate as large a number of the students as possible. It is of course open to anybody to suggest a further addition to these services and that is to be welcome. But it is simply regressive to say that something should be abandoned simply because it is not something which you yourself have an interest in. That is what we call living in a community with people of different needs. UCD for example, in addition to chaplains, provides lay student advisors, counsellors, psychologists, a psychiatrist, doctors and nurses. I may benefit from one or more of these and you may benefit from another. The fact that you benefit from different ones than I doesn't mean that they are not of equal value.


  • #120
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    johnfás wrote: »
    I'm a healthy person with plenty of money for my own private health provision if and when it is needed. However, I pay for the provision of a student health service for those who live away from home and cannot afford it. Perhaps I should be able to opt out from funding that as well? I'm also pretty able bodied and perhaps resent the notion of my money funding facilities for those who are not so able bodied. The reality is we live in a society with lots of people with different needs. A university campus should be a safe place which facilitates people of different backgrounds in their own development.
    You cannot compare health to religious stuff.


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  • #121
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    axer wrote: »
    A chaplain is fundamentally biased..

    ...and a supposed secular counsellor may well be equally biased on some issues. At least with a chaplain you will know where you stand.
    axer wrote: »
    You and others are trying to paint the picture that they are for everyone...

    I never said that. I said they should be there for the people who wish to avail of their services. Just like secular counsellors. You seem to be of the opinion that secular counsellors are there for everyone.... are they?
    axer wrote: »
    Fundamentally secular services do cater for everyone....

    That really depends on what their services are required for tbh.
    axer wrote: »
    Maybe it would be if resources were not wasted on chaplains...

    And maybe there'd be more money for counsellors if money was not wasted on landscaping and fountains, and maybe there'd be more money for counsellors if money was not wasted on x,y and z.
    axer wrote: »
    They may be but my understanding is it is not a prerequisite.

    Would it still be a waste of resources if that was the case?
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Religious conflict of faith. The non-religious and the non-represented-religious may not even go to a chaplain if they are of a particular religion, and so may not get to see a counsellor. Far better to cater for everyone from teh start, and offer more secualr counsellors who can refer people on to religious advisors if needs be..

    Again it's not an either/or issue. Why it keeps being presented like this is beyond me. The faithful of all and any sorts may not go to a secular counsellor.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Yes, std clinics are the secular alternative to religious groups telling you not to have sex, so they should be funded...

    But chaplaincy services shouldn't be? I never had use for the sexual health services in uni. Why should I have had to contribute to it? Could it be perhaps that I am mature enough to acknowledge that even if something doesn't benefit me personally there are others out there who it would benefit greatly?
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    A religious chaplain will not even have to try....

    Again, assuming that chaplains would not be adequately trained in a non-religious educational manner. Also assuming that chaplains would approach every issue from a fundamentally biased standpoint. A lot of assumptions going on. One could equally assume that a secular counsellor could also be so biased.
    axer wrote: »
    So how does the funding from students work? Is it only from students that want the service/are religious? Can a student opt out of paying for the chaplain?

    Can a student opt out for paying for anything? I don't particularly want the university to pay for nurses and doctors tbh... I've got my own GP who I can go to if I need medical assistance. May I opt out?


  • #122
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    prinz wrote: »
    ...and a supposed secular counsellor may well be equally biased on some issues. At least with a chaplain you will know where you stand.
    So that makes it ok then.
    prinz wrote: »
    I never said that. I said they should be there for the people who wish to avail of their services. Just like secular counsellors. You seem to be of the opinion that secular counsellors are there for everyone.... are they?
    Fundamentally they are.
    prinz wrote: »
    That really depends on what their services are required for tbh.
    but they are there for everyone with bias.
    prinz wrote: »
    And maybe there'd be more money for counsellors if money was not wasted on landscaping and fountains, and maybe there'd be more money for counsellors if money was not wasted on x,y and z.
    This is a clear case of educational institutes being biased with regards religious beliefs or lack thereof.
    prinz wrote: »
    Again it's not an either/or issue. Why it keeps being presented like this is beyond me. The faithful of all and any sorts may not go to a secular counsellor.
    Im not presenting it as that. I am giving an example of how funds could be better used if they are used for chaplaincy services.
    prinz wrote: »
    But chaplaincy services shouldn't be? I never had use for the sexual health services in uni. Why should I have had to contribute to it? Could it be perhaps that I am mature enough to acknowledge that even if something doesn't benefit me personally there are others out there who it would benefit greatly?
    You cannot compare health services to religious services - they are in a different league of needs.
    prinz wrote: »
    Again, assuming that chaplains would not be adequately trained in a non-religious educational manner. Also assuming that chaplains would approach every issue from a fundamentally biased standpoint. A lot of assumptions going on. One could equally assume that a secular counsellor could also be so biased.
    Sure. Missing the point.
    prinz wrote: »
    Can a student opt out for paying for anything? I don't particularly want the university to pay for nurses and doctors tbh... I've got my own GP who I can go to if I need medical assistance. May I opt out?
    See above.

    Just to be clear, I have no issues with chaplaincy being provided as long as it is funded by those that want it and not by the institutions themselves.


  • #123
    johnfás
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭johnfás


    axer wrote: »
    You cannot compare health to religious stuff.

    You see this is where the whole conversation inevitably breaks down. There are many who respect the beliefs of others (whether theistic, atheistic or simply unknown) as relevant, worthy and intrinsic to the being of a person. For such people it is clear that providing these people with services is not an affront to anything. Then there are a very small minority who think that it is the equivalent of whether one prefers the colour red over blue. Obviously if you apply that thinking then you can construct the argument of how about we fund a counselling provision for people who wear red t-shirts. Thankfully that sort of thinking is a small minority and hopefully, for the sake of a cohesive and respectful society in which both atheists and theists can interact caringly, that will remain the case.
    axer wrote: »
    This is a clear case of educational institutes being biased with regards religious beliefs.

    You haven't really made a great argument for bias - how is it biased? Simply providing a service for one group of people is not biased. All universities provide a secular counselling service in tandem with a chaplaincy service. People are free to seek the services of either or both irrespective of their perspective.


  • #124
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    johnfás wrote: »
    You see this is where the whole conversation inevitably breaks down. There are many who respect the beliefs of others (whether theistic, atheistic or simply unknown) as relevant, worthy and intrinsic to the being of a person. For such people it is clear that providing these people with services is not an affront to anything. Then there are a very small minority who think that it is the equivalent of whether one prefers the colour red over blue. Obviously if you apply that thinking then you can construct the argument of how about we fund a counselling provision for people who wear red t-shirts. Thankfully that sort of thinking is a small minority and hopefully, for the sake of a cohesive and respectful society in which both atheists and theists can interact caringly, that will remain the case.
    Ok, so you think that spiritual "health" is as important as physical/mental health?
    johnfás wrote: »
    You haven't really made a great argument for bias - how is it biased? Simply providing a service for one group of people is not biased. All universities provide a secular counselling service in tandem with a chaplaincy service. People are free to seek the services of either or both irrespective of their perspective.
    You are now comparing chaplaincy to counselling services?


  • #125
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    axer wrote: »
    So how does the funding from students work? Is it only from students that want the service/are religious? Can a student opt out of paying for the chaplain?

    And if they were allowed to, could other students opt out of paying for the sports centre if they don't use it? Or the careers service? Or the counselling service? Why aren't you giving out about those services too? Probably only about 10% of the college population use them each year, but everyone is paying for them.

    I just think it's mad that you think the chaplaincy and counselling services provide the same service. They are totally different services! And the chaplaincy is doing no harm to anyone, only good! And this is coming from a very committed atheist! Truley gave a list of the variety of services provided by the chaplains, and only ONE of the (counselling) can be provided by the counselling service. Yet you insist that they all can apart from the religious guidance. Why not shut down the careers service and let counsellors do that too?

    This is what gives atheism a bad name IMO...


  • #126
    johnfás
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭johnfás


    axer wrote: »
    Ok, so you think that spiritual "health" is as important as physical/mental health?

    That depends on the person in question. I am not so brash as to make a pronouncement on the necessary qualities of another person's wellbeing. That is why I think it is important to provide an array of services on a university campus. This is particularly the case given the average age of a student, the fact that many may be living away from home for the first time, or even in another country. Frankly I think their wellbeing, however that is formed, is a much more important concern of the university administration than is your hangup on winning a 'religious battle' that you are the only one who seems to want to fight.
    axer wrote: »
    You are now comparing chaplaincy to counselling services?

    No, I am not - you are attempting to stretch people's statements to your own ends, which does your argument no good. However, they are both services provided at a university with the intention of ensuring the wellbeing of students. As I said, UCD provides not only chaplaincy and counselling, but also a lay student advisory service, a team of psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors and nurses. It is up to individual students what they want services they wish to avail of unique to their own situation. Many students benefit from the chaplaincy service and it is to the benefit of the entire university community to have happy healthy students. The same is true of sports facilities, which we leave it up to students to decide whether or not they want to make use of.


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  • #127
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    axer wrote: »
    So that makes it ok then..

    No, but it undermines your argument that a chaplain would be biased. A secular counsellor could be equally as biased. Why is that not an issue for you?
    axer wrote: »
    Fundamentally they are...

    Fundamentally they aren't. It all depends on the student seeking help, not the service.
    axer wrote: »
    but they are there for everyone with bias....

    Well see, that point is already groundless. You need a new line of attack. It has been demonstrated false on this thread by people working in that area.
    axer wrote: »
    This is a clear case of educational institutes being biased with regards religious beliefs or lack thereof. ....

    Eh, no it isn't. Again this isn't an either/or issue. You don't have a chaplain or a counsellor. People with religious beliefs may wish to discuss issues with a chaplain. People with a lack thereof can go discuss issues with a counsellor. Services for all.
    axer wrote: »
    Im not presenting it as that. I am giving an example of how funds could be better used if they are used for chaplaincy services.....

    Funds could always be better used.
    axer wrote: »
    You cannot compare health services to religious services - they are in a different league of needs......

    Again you are missing the point. Many (I'd hazard most) don't approach chaplains for strictly religious services.
    axer wrote: »
    Sure. Missing the point.

    As long as you persist with the line that chaplains are biased then no it's not missing the point at all. Bias held by a secular counsellor doesn't seem to be a problem for you it appears. Why the double standard?
    axer wrote: »
    Just to be clear, I have no issues with chaplaincy being provided as long as it is funded by those that want it and not by the institutions themselves.

    Do you agree that STD/STi clinics should be similarly funded? The secular counsellor likewise?


  • #128
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Kooli wrote: »
    And if they were allowed to, could other students opt out of paying for the sports centre if they don't use it? Or the careers service? Or the counselling service? Why aren't you giving out about those services too? Probably only about 10% of the college population use them each year, but everyone is paying for them.
    There is a big difference between funding secular services and funding religious services.
    Kooli wrote: »
    I just think it's mad that you think the chaplaincy and counselling services provide the same service. They are totally different services! And the chaplaincy is doing no harm to anyone, only good! And this is coming from a very committed atheist! Truley gave a list of the variety of services provided by the chaplains, and only ONE of the (counselling) can be provided by the counselling service. Yet you insist that they all can apart from the religious guidance. Why not shut down the careers service and let counsellors do that too?
    I have never said that chaplaincy and counselling services provide the same service. Please show me where I did.

    Also, Im not sure what list you are referring to there. Can you link to it.
    Kooli wrote: »
    This is what gives atheism a bad name IMO...
    Because someone questions the needed for a religious based service over a secular based service? If that is the case then leave the constitution alone, leave the church running 95%+ of the primary schools etc etc - sure they are not doing any harm...:rolleyes:


  • #129
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    johnfás wrote: »
    That depends on the person in question. I am not so brash as to make a pronouncement on the necessary qualities of another person's wellbeing. That is why I think it is important to provide an array of services on a university campus. This is particularly the case given the average age of a student, the fact that many may be living away from home for the first time, or even in another country. Frankly I think their wellbeing, however that is formed, is a much more important concern of the university administration than is your hangup on winning a 'religious battle' that you are the only one who seems to want to fight.
    Ok.
    johnfás wrote: »
    No, I am not - you are attempting to stretch people's statements to your own ends, which does your argument no good. However, they are both services provided at a university with the intention of ensuring the wellbeing of students. As I said, UCD provides not only chaplaincy and counselling, but also a lay student advisory service, a team of psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors and nurses. It is up to individual students what they want services they wish to avail of unique to their own situation. Many students benefit from the chaplaincy service and it is to the benefit of the entire university community to have happy healthy students. The same is true of sports facilities, which we leave it up to students to decide whether or not they want to make use of.
    Sure.


  • #130
    johnfás
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭johnfás


    axer wrote: »
    Because someone questions the needed for a religious based service over a secular based service? If that is the case then leave the constitution alone, leave the church running 95%+ of the primary schools etc etc - sure they are not doing any harm...:rolleyes:

    Again, you are twisting the reality of the situation in order to suit your argument. You have failed to outline the necessary characteristics of a "secular based service". For the sake of clarity, I will repeat the services which UCD provide for the wellbeing of students - Doctor, Nurse, Psychologist, Psychiatrist, Counsellor, Student Advisor, Career Guidance, Chaplain. So if we were to cut the chaplain out of that equation, what would you feel is missing in order to have a secular based service? The reality is that universities provide a full range of services on a secular basis and, in tandem, also provide a minor chaplaincy service for those students who also consider the ability to access such a service an important part of their wellbeing. This is not providing one service over another, it is simply providing both. The fact that one of these services doesn't benefit you directly does not result in the ocurrence of a bias.

    It is somewhat noticeable that throughout this conversation the focus has been very much on one philosophy winning through over another - when the reality is that a university has space for both to live and grow - and the noticeable absence of concern for the wellbeing of students. Universities provide services to promote a healthy and safe environment for their students, many of whom go through a great many difficulties during their time at university. I think the wellbeing of students, whoever they are, is more important than your philosophy beating mine, or mine beating yours.


  • #131
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    johnfás wrote: »
    Again, you are twisting the reality of the situation in order to suit your argument. You have failed to outline the necessary characteristics of a "secular based service". For the sake of clarity, I will repeat the services which UCD provide for the wellbeing of students - Doctor, Nurse, Psychologist, Psychiatrist, Counsellor, Student Advisor, Career Guidance, Chaplain. So if we were to cut the chaplain out of that equation, what would you feel is missing in order to have a secular based service? The reality is that universities provide a full range of services on a secular basis and, in tandem, also provide a minor chaplaincy service for those students who also consider the ability to access such a service an important part of their wellbeing. This is not providing one service over another, it is simply providing both.

    It is somewhat noticeable that throughout this conversation the focus has been very much on one philosophy winning through over another - when the reality is that a university has space for both to live and grow - and the noticeable absence of concern for the wellbeing of students. Universities provide services to promote a healthy and safe environment for their students, many of whom go through a great many difficulties during their time at university. I think the wellbeing of students, whoever they are, is more important than your philosophy beating mine, or mine beating yours.
    Give me a list of the services a chaplain provides. I have already answered one before.


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  • #132
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    Kooli wrote: »
    This is what gives atheism a bad name IMO...

    So true it really goes to show that not believing in God doen't have any reflection on the level of tolerance or open-mindedness a person has, and that people are happy to (religiously heh) follow any belief so long as it conflicts with people's religion.

    I would be loath to call myself an Athiest if this kind of begrudgry was done in my name.


  • #133
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Truley wrote: »
    So true it really goes to show that not believing in God doen't have any reflection on the level of tolerance or open-mindedness a person has, and that people are happy to (religiously heh) follow any belief so long as it conflicts with people's religion.

    I would be loath to call myself an Athiest if this kind of begrudgry was done in my name.
    Oh ffs. Whats wrong with religious people funding their own religious services? This has nothing to do with tolerance or open-mindedness, this is solely about a secular society.


  • #134
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    prinz wrote: »
    Again it's not an either/or issue. Why it keeps being presented like this is beyond me. The faithful of all and any sorts may not go to a secular counsellor.

    Why wouldn't they go? A secular counsellor is specifically trained to be onjective, to (try) not to bring in personal bias into helping the student. There is not reason a religious student couldn't go and get non biased help from a counsellor, and then be referred on to a religious group if they have religious issues. This would make everything fair for everyone.
    prinz wrote: »
    But chaplaincy services shouldn't be? I never had use for the sexual health services in uni. Why should I have had to contribute to it? Could it be perhaps that I am mature enough to acknowledge that even if something doesn't benefit me personally there are others out there who it would benefit greatly?

    You are conflating two issues: the issue of paying for a college servise that you, as an individual may not use, and the issue of wether that service should be secular or not. I (and I dont think anyone else either) am not saying that mixed funds shouldn't be used for programmes that benefit only certain groups, I (and others here aswell, I think) am just saying those funds should always aim for secular version of those services, so as to benefit the most possible people equally.
    Std clinics are secular. Chaplaincies are not. Mixed student taxes should only pay for secular services, not biased ones.
    prinz wrote: »
    Again, assuming that chaplains would not be adequately trained in a non-religious educational manner. Also assuming that chaplains would approach every issue from a fundamentally biased standpoint. A lot of assumptions going on. One could equally assume that a secular counsellor could also be so biased.

    If a secular counsellor was biased, then they wouldn't be secular would they?


  • #135
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    axer wrote: »
    Give me a list of the services a chaplain provides. I have already answered one before.
    I guess i'll answer myself. From NUIG's chaplaincy website:
    http://www.nuigalway.ie/student-life/student-support/chaplaincy.html
    • The chaplains at NUI Galway offer the following services:
    • Daily Mass (lunchtime and evening, including Sunday)
    • Pastoral care
    • Personal counselling and advisory service to students and staff
    • Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession)
    • Weddings of students, staff and graduates
    • Christmas Carol services for staff and students
    • Service of Remembrance for those who donate their bodies to medical science
    • A week of guided prayer each spring
    • Meditation class each Wednesday at 12 noon
    • Monthly Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament
    • Reunion Mass each June
    • Galway Order of Malta Christmas and summer Mass
    • Adult Confirmation for the Diocese of Galway
    • Diocesan annual Celebration of Religious Life
    So the only thing NUIG chaplaincy service does that is secular is (which is debatable considering natural bias due to known beliefs):
    Personal counselling and advisory service to students and staff

    Now I have absolutely no problem with such services as long as they are not funded by the education institute or by taxing all students. I would even say that the college could provide the working space free but thats as far as it should go. At the end of the day from what I can see the chaplains are there as representitives of their faiths. Thats fine but lets not pretend it is anything different.


  • #136
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    johnfás wrote: »
    That depends on the person in question. I am not so brash as to make a pronouncement on the necessary qualities of another person's wellbeing. That is why I think it is important to provide an array of services on a university campus. This is particularly the case given the average age of a student, the fact that many may be living away from home for the first time, or even in another country. Frankly I think their wellbeing, however that is formed, is a much more important concern of the university administration than is your hangup on winning a 'religious battle' that you are the only one who seems to want to fight.

    Seeing as there is severely limited funding in colleges, should the college not aim to fund services that benefit the most people? A secular counslelling service benefits more people than a religious chaplain. A secular counsellor can do everything non religious chaplain does (but better, as they are trained to be secular ie unbiased) and they can make referals for the religious stuff (you know, what the religious chaplains do when a student of different religion approaches them and they cant help). This way is financially better fo rthe college and quite clearly fairer for every student.
    johnfás wrote: »
    No, I am not - you are attempting to stretch people's statements to your own ends, which does your argument no good. However, they are both services provided at a university with the intention of ensuring the wellbeing of students. As I said, UCD provides not only chaplaincy and counselling, but also a lay student advisory service, a team of psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors and nurses. It is up to individual students what they want services they wish to avail of unique to their own situation. Many students benefit from the chaplaincy service and it is to the benefit of the entire university community to have happy healthy students. The same is true of sports facilities, which we leave it up to students to decide whether or not they want to make use of.

    It would be financially better for ucd to get rid of the chaplaincy. Then they could hire more counsellors (who would be better for teh reasons explained above) and the students with religious issues can go to the church that is on campus.


  • #137
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Kooli wrote: »
    And if they were allowed to, could other students opt out of paying for the sports centre if they don't use it? Or the careers service? Or the counselling service? Why aren't you giving out about those services too? Probably only about 10% of the college population use them each year, but everyone is paying for them.

    What you are proposing is the equivilent of allowing students to opt out of funding all counselling services altogether, which is something no-one is advocating (and you full well know it). What we are advocating is that the funding from all students goes to secular services, as secular services benefits every student, as opposed to religious services which only "benefit" the students who hold those religious beliefs.
    Its unsurprising that people here holding most strongly to the idea of religious chaplains arethose with the same religion
    Kooli wrote: »
    I just think it's mad that you think the chaplaincy and counselling services provide the same service. They are totally different services! And the chaplaincy is doing no harm to anyone, only good! And this is coming from a very committed atheist! Truley gave a list of the variety of services provided by the chaplains, and only ONE of the (counselling) can be provided by the counselling service. Yet you insist that they all can apart from the religious guidance. Why not shut down the careers service and let counsellors do that too?

    Why cant the counselling service give the other non religious services listed? What aspect of a chaplaincies non religious service requires the religious aspect of the chaplaincy?
    Kooli wrote: »
    This is what gives atheism a bad name IMO...

    Must be terrible for you when atheists dont genuflect in your presence in deference to your superior theistic beliefs. If calling hypocritical theists on their bs is what gives atheist a bad name, then I am proud to be called athiest.


  • #138
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    There is not reason a religious student couldn't go and get non biased help from a counsellor, and then be referred on to a religious group if they have religious issues. This would make everything fair for everyone.

    Except on somebody who wants to go to a chaplain first of course... but who cares about being fair to them, right? Frankly hilarious at this stage. What's next? The Dublin Airport Chaplain must really bother you at this stage. :rolleyes: Army chaplains........ hospital chaplains... Dublin Port chaplain...
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Mixed student taxes should only pay for secular services, not biased ones..

    Again with the bias claims. As has been pointed out apparently the only university in the State that pays it's own chaplain is TCD.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    If a secular counsellor was biased, then they wouldn't be secular would they?

    There is more to life than religion. A religiously secular counsellor may also be heavily biased in other areas.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Seeing as there is severely limited funding in colleges, should the college not aim to fund services that benefit the most people?

    You are right. Which is where the idea of chaplaincy comes in. Once again it is not, nor has anyone claimed it to be an either/or mutually exclusive scenario. One does not prohibit the other, both services and coexist.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    It would be financially better for ucd to get rid of the chaplaincy. Then they could hire more counsellors (who would be better for teh reasons explained above) and the students with religious issues can go to the church that is on campus.

    A church on campus? BIAS :eek:
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Its unsurprising that people here holding most strongly to the idea of religious chaplains arethose with the same religion.

    Really? Says who? Have we done a census? Asked for anyone's religion?
    Seems to me the ones holding most strongly to the idea of chaplaincy are in fact atheists.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Must be terrible for you when atheists dont genuflect in your presence in deference to your superior theistic beliefs. If calling hypocritical theists on their bs is what gives atheist a bad name, then I am proud to be called athiest.

    What is has been hypocritical on this issue?


  • #139
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    axer wrote: »
    Oh ffs. Whats wrong with religious people funding their own religious services? This has nothing to do with tolerance or open-mindedness, this is solely about a secular society.

    Yeah exactly! The idea of a 'secular society' at any cost, with no consideration for other people's needs and wants. Most people here haven't a clue what a Chaplain does, how they are funded or how much they cost. You don't care whether the service helps people. Yet you are happy to criticise and call for it's abolishment not because you think its effects are intrusive or negative, but because it doesn't fit in with your viewpoint. That is what I would called intolerance and narrow mindedness.

    And by the way you can have a secular society / institution where religious services are still allowed. Secular does not = no religion. Society, the economy, the education system are full of services that cater for different people. Most services you will find have an ethos or ideology tagged to it. The funding of a women's officer doesn't exactly contribute to a gender neutral society. The Ents society has a huge cutural bias in how it operates and is promoted. Even college psychologists have a level of exclusivity since you can't avail of the service without first being referred by someone elses interpretation of mental health.

    These services have little bearing on the secularism of a society.

    I don't judge things through a filter of my atheistic viewpoint. I look at the service; is it helpful to people - yes. Is it invading on other people's wellbeing - no. So any problem is an ideological rather than a real or practical one.


  • #140
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Truley wrote: »
    Yeah exactly! The idea of a 'secular society' at any cost, with no consideration for other people's needs and wants. Most people here haven't a clue what a Chaplain does, how they are funded or how much they cost. You don't care whether the service helps people. Yet you are happy to criticise and call for it's abolishment not because you think its effects are intrusive or negative, but because it doesn't fit in with your viewpoint. That is what I would called intolerance and narrow mindedness.
    Ah, you see, there you go not reading my posts. Read and come back.
    Truley wrote: »
    And by the way you can have a secular society / institution where religious services are still allowed. Secular does not = no religion. Society, the economy, the education system are full of services that cater for different people. Most services you will find have an ethos or ideology tagged to it. The funding of a women's officer doesn't exactly contribute to a gender neutral society. The Ents society has a huge cutural bias in how it operates and is promoted. Even college psychologists have a level of exclusivity since you can't avail of the service without first being referred by someone elses interpretation of mental health.
    Secular is the Educational Institute being separate from Religion. If the education institute does not give or direct funds to the relgious services then I have no issue at all.
    Truley wrote: »
    These services have little bearing on the secularism of a society.

    I don't judge things through a filter of my atheistic viewpoint. I look at the service; is it helpful to people - yes. Is it invading on other people's wellbeing - no. So any problem is an ideological rather than a real or practical one.
    I judge things through fairness since that is the way all things should be judged. Funding religious activities by a educational institute (whether it be directly or by taxing students) in not being secular.

    Other than religious stuff chaplains seem to do nothing that a secular counsellor could not do - in fact they could probably offer more to more students - that is the point here. So basically it is religious activities that are being funded here. That is not secular.


  • #141
    equivariant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭equivariant


    johnfás wrote: »
    You see this is where the whole conversation inevitably breaks down. There are many who respect the beliefs of others (whether theistic, atheistic or simply unknown) as relevant, worthy and intrinsic to the being of a person. For such people it is clear that providing these people with services is not an affront to anything. Then there are a very small minority who think that it is the equivalent of whether one prefers the colour red over blue. Obviously if you apply that thinking then you can construct the argument of how about we fund a counselling provision for people who wear red t-shirts. Thankfully that sort of thinking is a small minority and hopefully, for the sake of a cohesive and respectful society in which both atheists and theists can interact caringly, that will remain the case.

    You say "Thankfully that sort of thinking is a small minority". I would say 'unfortunately'. This whole business of respecting beliefs as being "intrinsic to the being of a person". What does that mean? Do you mean 'well being'? Even if you do, how do you know that? It's one of those 'mean whatever you want it to' phrases that are beloved of religious apologists. Can you find any scientific studies to back up your assertions in this regard?

    There is a fundamental difference between religion/spirituality and medicine (there are many of course, but this one is relevant to the point at hand) and it is this. One is largely based on scientific fact and rational thought and has scientifically verifiable benefits. The other is/does not. That is why arguing that religious/spiritual support is just as worthy of funding as health (including mental health) support is wrong.


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  • #142
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    prinz wrote: »
    Except on somebody who wants to go to a chaplain first of course... but who cares about being fair to them, right?

    Its not exactly fair to give someone special treatment. In fact its the very opposite of fair.
    prinz wrote: »
    Frankly hilarious at this stage. What's next? The Dublin Airport Chaplain must really bother you at this stage. :rolleyes: Army chaplains........ hospital chaplains... Dublin Port chaplain...

    They are all the same thing-goverment money being used to pander to the religious, so yeah I have the same problem with them.
    prinz wrote: »
    Again with the bias claims. As has been pointed out apparently the only university in the State that pays it's own chaplain is TCD.

    And we know of at least one more (ucc) that has the chaplain payed directly by forced student contributions.
    prinz wrote: »
    There is more to life than religion. A religiously secular counsellor may also be heavily biased in other areas.

    No more heavily biased than these religious chaplains you claim can keep their religion out of the non reliigous aspect of their job.
    prinz wrote: »
    You are right. Which is where the idea of chaplaincy comes in. Once again it is not, nor has anyone claimed it to be an either/or mutually exclusive scenario. One does not prohibit the other, both services and coexist.

    By virtue of being a chaplaincy of a specific religion it is biased and it excludes those who dont want religion brought into the meeting. Seeing as religion is such a small part of what they do, and that they can apparently keep it aside when need be, then why not just have a secular counsellor instead. Oh yes, I forgot, religions only want fairness when they are ones who get first choice.
    prinz wrote: »
    A church on campus? BIAS :eek:

    It is ridiculous really.
    prinz wrote: »
    Really? Says who? Have we done a census? Asked for anyone's religion?
    Seems to me the ones holding most strongly to the idea of chaplaincy are in fact atheists.

    You're an atheist now?
    prinz wrote: »
    What is has been hypocritical on this issue?

    This claim that religious chaplains can be unbiased if needs be. If they can, then what difference does it make if they are secular counsellors instead, who refer people on to religious advisors if thats what they want? Its what a religious chaplain has to do with a student who isn't the same religion (a RC chaplain is not going to mush spiritual help to a jewish student). You have no problem letting the minorty religious and the non religious look elsewhere for unbiased help, but kick up a storm when you are asked to do the same.


  • #143
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Its not exactly fair to give someone special treatment. In fact its the very opposite of fair..

    Who's getting special treatment? :confused:
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    They are all the same thing-goverment money being used to pander to the religious, so yeah I have the same problem with them..

    :pac:
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    No more heavily biased than these religious chaplains you claim can keep their religion out of the non reliigous aspect of their job.

    Yes, indeed. Doesn't that present a problem then?
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    By virtue of being a chaplaincy of a specific religion it is biased and it excludes those who dont want religion brought into the meeting..

    Then don't go to a chaplain. It really is that simple.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Oh yes, I forgot, religions only want fairness when they are ones who get first choice...

    You are the one demanding that choice be removed.... which is it?
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    It is ridiculous really....

    Yes. How dare a campus actually be reflective of society in general! The cheek...:rolleyes:
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    You're an atheist now?....

    No, I'm not, are you admitting that you are ignoring the contributions from two (at least) atheists on this thread then? Far easier to just paint it as an atheist v religious issue isn't it.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Its what a religious chaplain has to do with a student who isn't the same religion (a RC chaplain is not going to mush spiritual help to a jewish student).

    That's debateable. A RC chaplain would more likely than not be far more help to a Jewish student struggling with matters of faith, morality etc than someone with none/someone who is prohibited from discussing these issues.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    You have no problem letting the minorty religious and the non religious look elsewhere for unbiased help, but kick up a storm when you are asked to do the same.

    Really? Where have a said that minority religions must look elsewhere? Where have I said non religious must look elsewhere for help? Where is it said that there must only be one chaplaincy of one religion? Where has it been said that if there is a chaplain there must be no non religious equivalent? Rabble rabble. Scraping the barrel now with invented arguments. By they way who's to say I am not a minority religion member myself? I don't recall discussing my theological position with you tbh.


  • #144
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    axer wrote: »
    Secular is the Educational Institute being separate from Religion. If the education institute does not give or direct funds to the relgious services then I have no issue at all.

    Since the ethos of the college isn't religous, it is a secular college. If it distributes funding to religous societies and organisations according to demand this doesn't effect the secularism of the institution itself. Unless you interperate the distribution of funding as making a political stance. In that case the college must be taking a feminist stance by funding a women's officer, a cultural stance with the Cuman na Gaeilge, and a very ambigious religious stance given the multitude of different religous societies and services it funds.
    I judge things through fairness since that is the way all things should be judged. Funding religious activities by a educational institute (whether it be directly or by taxing students) in not being secular.

    Come on now, since when was taxation fair? Even a University doesn't claim to have a fair funding distribution. How come the Kayak club in UCD gets its own boathouse and funding for equipment paid for by the university (not membership fees.) How is that fair for the 20,000 other students who don't kayak? And a kayak club is no more exclusive in that its membership is only open to people who like watersports, the same way Chaplains are only for people that 'like' religion.

    I don't see how a state or institution can't maintain a secular ethos while still providing funding for harmless, private religious endeavours as and when people want it. If it wasn't the case I would be very pissed off with the cultural homogeneity our state/education system/whatever is clearly promoting by funding gender and language biased societies.
    Other than religious stuff chaplains seem to do nothing that a secular counsellor could not do - in fact they could probably offer more to more students - that is the point here. So basically it is religious activities that are being funded here. That is not secular.

    I know it's been said a hundred times already on this thread, but chaplains are not there to provide the same service as a counsellor. It is the religious aspect that makes it unique, and it is the religous aspect that people who use the service want. It's a religous service, I know it is a religious service, I never tried to say otherwise.


  • #145
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Truley wrote: »
    Since the ethos of the college isn't religous, it is a secular college. If it distributes funding to religous societies and organisations according to demand this doesn't effect the secularism of the institution itself. Unless you interperate the distribution of funding as making a political stance. In that case the college must be taking a feminist stance by funding a women's officer, a cultural stance with the Cuman na Gaeilge, and a very ambigious religious stance given the multitude of different religous societies and services it funds.
    It seems many colleges might claim to be secular (I'm not sure which do or which don't) but if you have a situation whereby funds are being directed to chaplains and/or have prayers said before, for example, at the inauguration of their new president (DCU) then they are not secular.
    Truley wrote: »
    Come on now, since when was taxation fair? Even a University doesn't claim to have a fair funding distribution. How come the Kayak club in UCD gets its own boathouse and funding for equipment paid for by the university (not membership fees.) How is that fair for the 20,000 other students who don't kayak? And a kayak club is no more exclusive in that its membership is only open to people who like watersports, the same way Chaplains are only for people that 'like' religion.
    I have previosuly said that I have no issue with a chaplain getting their own working space etc but I have an issue with them being funded by educational institutions redirecting funds to them when funds are already provided to faith socities/clubs etc. Also i'm sure that faith socities/clubs are given space to operate from too.
    Truley wrote: »
    If it wasn't the case I would be very pissed off with the cultural homogeneity our state/education system/whatever is clearly promoting by funding gender and language biased societies.
    as opposed to?
    Truley wrote: »
    I know it's been said a hundred times already on this thread, but chaplains are not there to provide the same service as a counsellor. It is the religious aspect that makes it unique, and it is the religous aspect that people who use the service want. It's a religous service, I know it is a religious service, I never tried to say otherwise.
    Exactly, finally, so education institutes are directly funding religious services either using their own funds or via taxation of students. That is not secular. There should be separation between the institution and religion. Funding faith socities/clubs is fine since it is like funding the infamous kayaking club.


  • #146
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    What you are proposing is the equivilent of allowing students to opt out of funding all counselling services altogether, which is something no-one is advocating (and you full well know it). What we are advocating is that the funding from all students goes to secular services, as secular services benefits every student, as opposed to religious services which only "benefit" the students who hold those religious beliefs.
    Its unsurprising that people here holding most strongly to the idea of religious chaplains arethose with the same religion


    Why cant the counselling service give the other non religious services listed? What aspect of a chaplaincies non religious service requires the religious aspect of the chaplaincy?


    Must be terrible for you when atheists dont genuflect in your presence in deference to your superior theistic beliefs. If calling hypocritical theists on their bs is what gives atheist a bad name, then I am proud to be called athiest.

    You seem to have missed the numerous times where I said that I am an atheist!


  • #147
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    axer wrote: »

    Because someone questions the needed for a religious based service over a secular based service? If that is the case then leave the constitution alone, leave the church running 95%+ of the primary schools etc etc - sure they are not doing any harm...:rolleyes:

    I was waiting for this comparison to arise!!

    State funded primary schools being run by the church is of course wrong, you'd be hard pressed to find an atheist who would disagree with you on that one.

    But the reasons it is so wrong do not apply to the argument about college chaplains.

    Does the provision of college chaplains mean that students with religious affiliation are given preference when college places are allocated? No.

    Does the provision of college chaplains mean that all students must be trained in the doctrine and ethos of a particular religion in order to access education? No.

    Will a student who is of no religion be seen as an 'outsider' in college due to the presence of college chaplains on campus? No.

    Will a student of no religion be affected in any way by the presence of college chaplains on campus? No.

    You seem to be of the opinion that if chaplains were done away with, the funding would go to psychological services. That is simply not true. So the practical implications of abolishing the chaplaincy would be only negative (in practical terms, leaving aside ideological terms).

    I look forward to a day when there are far fewer religious students on campus in the first place, so the chaplaincy becomes reduntant and obsolete, but until that day, I think the college should continue to provide this positive and well-valued student support.


  • #148
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    axer wrote: »
    Exactly...

    So after admitting that chaplains and counsellors do not provide the same service you still argue that chaplains should be done away with on the basis that a secular counsellor could fill the same void. :confused:


  • #149
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    prinz wrote: »
    So after admitting that chaplains and counsellors do not provide the same service you still argue that chaplains should be done away with on the basis that a secular counsellor could fill the same void. :confused:
    You missed the point. Chaplains provides religious services that includes a religious counselling service. A secular counsellor only provides a secular counselling service. The difference is that one is secular and the other is not and one provides extra religious services such as mass and confession and the other does not. It is not for public money of all student taxation to pay for the difference i.e. the religious aspect. I thought you had finally understood. Oh well, maybe you do now.


  • #150
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    axer wrote: »
    It seems many colleges might claim to be secular (I'm not sure which do or which don't) but if you have a situation whereby funds are being directed to chaplains and/or have prayers said before, for example, at the inauguration of their new president (DCU) then they are not secular.

    There is a difference between paying a Chaplain and having compulsary prayers at college events. The latter one is making an ideological stance and is invasive to other people, the former isn't. I would agree that what DCU did wasn't secular.
    I have previosuly said that I have no issue with a chaplain getting their own working space etc but I have an issue with them being funded by educational institutions redirecting funds to them when funds are already provided to faith socities/clubs etc. Also i'm sure that faith socities/clubs are given space to operate from too.

    I'm sure a certain amount of college funds go towards the chaplaincy but whether funds are being 'redirected' from somewhere else is debatable. I would wager that apart from the salary of the chapalin, most of its finances come from fundraising and donations. In fact how do you know the chaplaincy isn't a financially profitable entity for the university?
    as opposed to?

    ... not funding them :confused:
    Exactly, finally, so education institutes are directly funding religious services either using their own funds or via taxation of students. That is not secular. There should be separation between the institution and religion. Funding faith socities/clubs is fine since it is like funding the infamous kayaking club.

    Well a chaplaincy service is slightly different from a club or society because it needs a physical base (like the kayak club needs a boathouse) and a qualified chaplain. Otherwise it wouldn't really be a chaplaincy. And who says there isn't seperation between the institution and the religon? It allows the service to be available on its grounds, it may or may not donate funds towards it (nobody has been able to confirm this.) The college and the religion are still seperate entities. The same way the college and the kayak club are not alligned, though the kayak club is (definately) funded through direct funding and student taxation.

    You are confusing real problems with ideological ones.


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  • #151
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    People of faith are a significant demographic on campus, therefore their views will need to be represented in respect to how the university conducts itself.

    ^^^^ If this is true then drawing similarities between third level education and primary, in terms of singular religious demanding more than their fair share of influence based on nothing more than historic sentimentality, are relevant in fairness.


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