It's a race...no it's not...is too..is not..etc

Slideshowbob

[MOD NOTE: moved from here]

niceonetom wrote: »

Interestingly, I saw no evidence of doping control at the Marmotte or other events around that time and those are timed, and very highly contested by some very serious cyclists, and there are prizes (though I don't know what) as well as the not-inconsiderable glory of winning.

...not that I'm planning anything or anything. At all. Even slightly.

I could time myself and a few other cycling to work in the morning - wouldn't make it a race.

I've made this point before in relation to the Sky Etape Hibernia - even the Irish Times wrote about it as a race - it ain't!

Where-as if Clare CC organise an open 30 mile race and 20 do it! - its a race!!

niceonetom

Slideshowbob wrote: »

I could time myself and a few other cycling to work in the morning - wouldn't make it a race.

I've made this point before in relation to the Sky Etape Hibernia - even the Irish Times wrote about it as a race - it ain't!

Where-as if Clare CC organise an open 30 mile race and 20 do it! - its a race!!

Do the Marmotte and tell me it's not a race.

Slideshowbob

niceonetom wrote: »

Do the Marmotte and tell me it's not a race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Marmotte

"La Marmotte is a one-day cyclosportive event in France, utilising some of the climbs used in the Tour de France.
The route is 174 km (108 mi) long and features more than 5180 metres of climbing. The event goes over the Col du Glandon, Col du Telegraphe, Col du Galibier and finishes at the top of one the most famous Tour de France climbs, Alpe d'Huez."

ie - not a race

Do the Ras and tell me it's a race

niceonetom

Slideshowbob wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Marmotte

"La Marmotte is a one-day cyclosportive event in France, utilising some of the climbs used in the Tour de France.
The route is 174 km (108 mi) long and features more than 5180 metres of climbing. The event goes over the Col du Glandon, Col du Telegraphe, Col du Galibier and finishes at the top of one the most famous Tour de France climbs, Alpe d'Huez."

ie - not a race

Do the Ras and tell me it's a race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing

Racing

A sport race is a competition of speed, against an objective criterion, usually a clock or to a specific point. The competitors in a race try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time. Typically this involves traversing some distance, but it can be any other task involving speed to reach a specific goal.

I'm not that interested in playing some semantic game with you Bob, but the word race can apply to the Marmotte without any recourse to any governing body nonsense.

Words mean what they mean - it's not up to you, the UCI or Clare CC.

Thousands turn up in Bourg D'Oisans just to complete the Marmotte, but a small few, maybe less than a hundred go to win. And each year one of them does. And these guys, the ones who can win are stronger, more talented, and more committed cyclists that you ever were, even in the dim and distant past you cryptically allude to, before you dried into the bitter old husk you now seem to be.

Slideshowbob

niceonetom wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing

Racing

A sport race is a competition of speed, against an objective criterion, usually a clock or to a specific point. The competitors in a race try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time. Typically this involves traversing some distance, but it can be any other task involving speed to reach a specific goal.

I'm not that interested in playing some semantic game with you Bob, but the word race can apply to the Marmotte without any recourse to any governing body nonsense.

Words mean what they mean - it's not up to you, the UCI or Clare CC.

Thousands turn up in Bourg D'Oisans just to complete the Marmotte, but a small few, maybe less than a hundred go to win. And each year one of them does. And these guys, the ones who can win are stronger, more talented, and more committed cyclists that you ever were, even in the dim and distant past you cryptically allude to, before you dried into the bitter old husk you now seem to be.

ah ya world governing bodies - sure who needs em - buggers! just ask the WWF or WWE ??!! :rolleyes:

Words do indeed mean what they mean - and it aint up to a cluster of boardsies either to define things.

Just trying to give a balanced perspective to someone new coming on here who might think the marmotte is an actual race in the same sense as Tour de France / Ras etc.

btw - Cheers for the personal insults - any moderators in the house?

niceonetom

Are you volunteering to make a case for the UCI? I hear they're not having a great time of it these days. THey need you, bob. Have at it.

Re: the insults thing... You could always just redefine "bitter old husk" to mean something less grating if you feel insulted. That would work. How about you decide that from now old "bitter old husk" actually means "awesome super dude". You read it your way, I'll read it mine. Ok?

blorg

Slideshowbob wrote: »

The marathon is a specific olympic event but because of its nature u can get a mix partaking in say the Dublin marathon from olympians to walkers.

as i see it - in cycling there are races as defined under UCI regs - and then randonees / cyclo sportives etc which I would not see as races.

Amongst over things races (as per UCI regs) will have restricted numbers, may have limited numbers on each team, may have team support cars, etc, randonnees etc tend not to i gather

I would divide it further into:

- Road Races under UCI regs
- Cyclosportives/Gran Fondos (European ones; Irish ones are not timed and I would not consider them races in any way)
- Randonees/Audax (all Irish events in this category)

I don't claim that European cyclosportives are run as road races under UCI regulations but at the same time they are different from randonnes or audax events in being timed, having prizes for the top finishers etc.

I don't see how Olympic status defines whether something is a race or not. On that argument the Tour is not a race as there are no stage races in the Olympics.

DirkVoodoo

"Bitter old husk" sounds like something off the label for a very fine whiskey.

"Aged 10 years in a bitter old husk for extra bite and a lingering aftertaste".

I enjoyed the article.

Slideshowbob

niceonetom wrote: »

Are you volunteering to make a case for the UCI? I hear they're not having a great time of it these days. THey need you, bob. Have at it.

Re: the insults thing... You could always just redefine "bitter old husk" to mean something less grating if you feel insulted. That would work. How about you decide that from now old "bitter old husk" actually means "awesome super dude". You read it your way, I'll read it mine. Ok?

A case for the UCI? dont be putting words in my mouth :rolleyes:

"Have at it"? all the French on the Marmotte getting lost in translation monsieur Tom?

Re - "bitter old husk" - No - not ok - I will take it as read and gather it was intended unless you care to retract? Again moderators more than welcome to adjudicate (any such not from the same cycling club )

Slideshowbob

blorg wrote: »

I would divide it further into:

- Road Races under UCI regs
- Cyclosportives/Gran Fondos (European ones; Irish ones are not timed and I would not consider them races in any way)
- Randonees/Audax (all Irish events in this category)

I don't claim that European cyclosportives are run as road races under UCI regulations but at the same time they are different from randonnes or audax events in being timed, having prizes for the top finishers etc.

I don't see how Olympic status defines whether something is a race or not. On that argument the Tour is not a race as there are no stage races in the Olympics.

Well Olympics has an event called the road race - a good model for road races!

Tour is under UCI rules - eh ...... its a race.

niceonetom

Have at it.

It is getting slightly tedious having to teach what simple commonly-used words and phrases mean.

thebouldwhacker

After seeing Sean get punch repeatedly by the opposition in the middle of a maul in a rugby game, Tom grabbed the offender in a full-nelson and positioned him face-first to Sean, saying "have at it".

Jezz, are you that Tom, tom? is that where the name came from, as in:

After Sean have-at-it-ed the offender he turned to Tom and said 'niceonetom'

Sorry back on thread, drugs bad, cycling good, be euro

blorg

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Well Olympics has an event called the road race - a good model for road races!

No stage races though. The individual pursuit on the track then- that clearly used to be a race but now having lost its Olympic status it is lumped in with Audax.

Tour is under UCI rules - eh ...... its a race.

Right, so the 2008 Tour wasn't a race then (something Armstrong would agree with you on.)

Is Time Trialling in the UK racing? It is under the auspices of Cycling Time Trials, not British Cycling, and does not follow UCI rules.

ROK ON

This is really really simple.

If two or more people decide to race an event whether ir not it is approved by a sports Governing body, it is a race.

Racing is defined by intent.
If I was to meet another commuter at the frontgate of the phoenix park and challenge them to a bike race to the back gate.
If they take up the challenge are you telling me that it is not a race because the UCI didn't sanction (or even know about it).

Like marathons everywhere, the Marmotte etc attracts many people who will participate and some who will race.

Lumen

Slideshowbob wrote: »

ah ya world governing bodies - sure who needs em - buggers! just ask the WWF or WWE ??!! :rolleyes:

Words do indeed mean what they mean - and it aint up to a cluster of boardsies either to define things.

Just trying to give a balanced perspective to someone new coming on here who might think the marmotte is an actual race in the same sense as Tour de France / Ras etc.

btw - Cheers for the personal insults - any moderators in the house?

Bob, you're free to use the "report post" function to report a post. Those reports go to all mods; one of us will usually respond.

In the absence of any such explicit plea for intervention I assumed that a battle-hardened old ex-RASing warhorse like yourself didn't need defending against such mild verbal admonishment from a lowly cat 4.

In any case, I'm hoping that all the sniping builds up to a proper one-on-one race, UCI sanctioned or otherwise.

Quigs Snr

I reckon if there is a prize for first place, then it is a race, whether it is called a race or not. That is the case with the etape as far as I can recall (the year I did it an AG2R guy won and I distinctly recal him standing on a podium at the end), not sure about the Marmotte.

blorg

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I reckon if there is a prize for first place, then it is a race, whether it is called a race or not. That is the case with the etape as far as I can recall (the year I did it an AG2R guy won and I distinctly recal him standing on a podium at the end), not sure about the Marmotte.

It's the same for the Marmotte and indeed the other sportives in the Grand Trophée, there is a podium and prizes at the end for the top 3 and the results are published. Most French and Italian cyclosportives/Gran Fondos are run this way AFAIK.

TinyExplosions

So according to bob, mockler wasn't in a race.... that makes me sad

If you are timed, and get a prize for having a faster time than anyone else, to me it's a race, irrespective of who sanctions or runs it.

The egg and spoon race I got a medal for back in '87 wasn't run under olympic rules, does that mean I've been dining out on a hollow victory for 23 years -that double-drop and still win was epic I tells ya, epic!

ROK ON

TinyExplosions wrote: »

So according to bob, mockler wasn't in a race.... that makes me sad

If you are timed, and get a prize for having a faster time than anyone else, to me it's a race, irrespective of who sanctions or runs it.

The egg and spoon race I got a medal for back in '87 wasn't run under olympic rules, does that mean I've been dining out on a hollow victory for 23 years -that double-drop and still win was epic I tells ya, epic!

Tiny, did you dope in prep for that race ;-)

TinyExplosions

ROK ON wrote: »

Tiny, did you dope in prep for that race ;-)

I might have had a small can of coke, but caffeine's not banned -all those pills anyone might have seen me take were just that, caffeine pills.

I also had no stake in the the management of the class I was running for. I was just an athlete, honest.

I've done a lot of good for people you know, I designed the first boards jersey!

Slideshowbob

blorg wrote: »

No stage races though. The individual pursuit on the track then- that clearly used to be a race but now having lost its Olympic status it is lumped in with Audax.

Right, so the 2008 Tour wasn't a race then (something Armstrong would agree with you on.)

Is Time Trialling in the UK racing? It is under the auspices of Cycling Time Trials, not British Cycling, and does not follow UCI rules.

I am happy to report that do I count the events (ie stages races, track races, le Tour, UK time trials) mentioned above as races - well done Blorg

Slideshowbob

ROK ON wrote: »

This is really really simple.

If two or more people decide to race an event whether ir not it is approved by a sports Governing body, it is a race.

Racing is defined by intent.
If I was to meet another commuter at the frontgate of the phoenix park and challenge them to a bike race to the back gate.
If they take up the challenge are you telling me that it is not a race because the UCI didn't sanction (or even know about it).

Like marathons everywhere, the Marmotte etc attracts many people who will participate and some who will race.

"If two or more people decide to race an event whether ir not it is approved by a sports Governing body, it is a race" I'd add - "in those 2 (or more) people's eyes"

The gardai may take a different view, would there be lead cars and or marshalls?

Slideshowbob

Lumen wrote: »

Bob, you're free to use the "report post" function to report a post. Those reports go to all mods; one of us will usually respond.

In the absence of any such explicit plea for intervention I assumed that a battle-hardened old ex-RASing warhorse like yourself didn't need defending against such mild verbal admonishment from a lowly cat 4.

In any case, I'm hoping that all the sniping builds up to a proper one-on-one race, UCI sanctioned or otherwise.

Thanks Lumen - I reported Nicetom earlier - still awaiting response.

Sure who said I even rode the Ras

Not sure I'd be into a "race" to decide this - thanks

TinyExplosions

Slideshowbob wrote: »

"If two or more people decide to race an event whether ir not it is approved by a sports Governing body, it is a race" I'd add - "in those 2 (or more) people's eyes"

The gardai may take a different view, would there be lead cars and or marshalls?

why would the Gardai care so long as you were following the rules of the road? What do you need a lead car and or marshalls for if it's just a straight up commuter race?

DirkVoodoo

My racing challenge is still there, get in line ladies!

Nietzschean

Slideshowbob wrote: »

"If two or more people decide to race an event whether ir not it is approved by a sports Governing body, it is a race" I'd add - "in those 2 (or more) people's eyes"

So you do make up your own meaning to words then is it?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Race

A competition of speed, as in running or riding.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race

any contest or competition, esp. to achieve superiority: the arms race; the presidential race.

to engage in a contest of speed; run a race.

Hrm I don't see any reference to governing bodies, police forces or anything else.

ROK ON

@Slideshow. Your history of posting portrays you as a person who is deeply enthusiastic and committed to the official club racing scene in this country. As a person who places great emphasis on amateur sports myself I commend you for this.

My point was that a race of any type does not need sanction from a body or the police, it dies not need anyone impramatur.
If say you and me decide to meet up and race down a random stretch of road, then (1) it is a race and (2) as long as we obey the laws of society/rles of the road etc, I can't see how it is relevant.

You are either bei g mischevious or you fail to understand that not all races need official sanction from a sports governing body.

Simplify it further. We play golf with the winner buying pints. Its competitive. But its not a GUI competition, merely another type if competitive event.
I think its simple really.

Chips Lovell

Three pages of debate on semantics. Let no one say this forum isn't intellectual.

niceonetom

Would it move things along at all if I challenged bob to a granfondo?

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

Would it move things along at all if I challenged bob to a granfondo?

No. Then he'd be racing in a race that isn't a race. It might cause some sort of anti-matter explosion and the world would collapse in on itself.

Lumen

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Sure who said I even rode the Ras

I was trying to bait you into an admission one way or the other.

In my cycling batcave I have a massive wallchart titled "Who is Slideshowbob?" with photos of the greatest Irish cyclists of all time. I'm crossing them out one by one.

Beasty

Lumen wrote: »

In my cycling batcave I have a massive wallchart titled "Who is Slideshowbob?" with photos of the greatest Irish cyclists of all time. I'm crossing them out one by one.

I met a boardsie a few weeks back, and asked him what his username was.

"Sideshowbob" was the reply. I thought I'd struck gold. "You've been winding a few people up recently" I said. "Have I?" was the reply. We had a laugh about it, and then I realised it wasn't Slideshowbob I was speaking to, but one of the many variants on the name that are used around here:o

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

No. Then he'd be racing in a race that isn't a race. It might cause some sort of anti-matter explosion and the world would collapse in on itself.

But he could reveal if the Higgs Boson exists and advance modern particle physics... I think he should go for it!

fenris

Make it a true trial by blood and both of you sign up for the XC NPS race in Djouce this weekend!



http://www.irishxcmtb.com/

ednwireland

niceonetom wrote: »

Would it move things along at all if I challenged bob to a granfondo?

mmmm granfondue

TinyExplosions

Slideshowbob

Nietzschean wrote: »

So you do make up your own meaning to words then is it?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Race



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race




Hrm I don't see any reference to governing bodies, police forces or anything else.

A competition is a contest - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition

A contest is an event - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest

An event (in a sporting context) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event brings you to:

A sport is commonly defined as an organized, competitive, and skillful physical activity requiring commitment and fair play. It is governed by a set of rules or customs.

PS - Are ye all saying that two lads cycling along through Rathmines in an event they term a "race" has the same merit or substance as the Ras, the Tour, even a CTT time trial in the UK or any other event which I would see as a race? Seriously? I keep missing those results in the Irish Times - damn it!! :rolleyes:

TinyExplosions

Slideshowbob wrote: »

PS - Are ye all saying that two lads cycling along through Rathmines in an event they term a "race" has the same merit or substance as the Ras, the Tour, even a CTT time trial in the UK or any other event which I would see as a race? Seriously? I keep missing those results in the Irish Times - damn it!! :rolleyes:

Nope. No one said that at any point, just that it was a race

Slideshowbob

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Nope. No one said that at any point, just that it was a race

Right - so in a world of 5bn people or whatever 2 people see such a thing as a race! so that makes it a "race". Very navel gazetastic.

ROK ON

To continue the semantics. I don't think anyone mentioned merit before your last post. Merit is also determined by the participants not the scale of sporting event.

If you have ever wittnesed intense bitter tribal local sporting rivalry, don't tell me there is less merit in that than Cav, Hushovd etc going mano a mano for the line.

If protagonists in any field of sporting endevour want to beat eachothet badly enough I say that's all the merit reqd.
It don't matter a fig whether its two blokes in an unsanctioned race, a few a1s in an good inter club race or the top pros in a global event.

We all have a right to test ourselves in terms of our sporting limits. Competition is important regardless of its form nature or sanction.

TinyExplosions

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Right - so in a world of 5bn people or whatever 2 people see such a thing as a race! so that makes it a "race". Very navel gazetastic.

What's wrong with that? In your mind if it's not governed by a national (or some other recognized body), it's not a race?

What point are you trying to make at the end of the day? Mine is that if there's timing and prizes given out in the Marmotte, then it's a race.

Slideshowbob

ROK ON wrote: »

It don't matter a fig whether its two blokes in an unsanctioned race, a few a1s in an good inter club race or the top pros in a global event.

Well it does if you chose to mislead work colleagues, partners, friends etc after if you say you have taken part in a race then it wasn't in fact a race. It de-merits endeavours of others.

Slideshowbob

TinyExplosions wrote: »

What's wrong with that? In your mind if it's not governed by a national (or some other recognized body), it's not a race?

What point are you trying to make at the end of the day? Mine is that if there's timing and prizes given out in the Marmotte, then it's a race.

That point exactly - if it's not governed by a national (or some other recognised body), it's not a race!!

And don't forget most club and inter-club races rely on Cycling Ireland insurance which is granted I gather under the races being run under the rules of the UCI.

Lumen

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Right - so in a world of 5bn people or whatever 2 people see such a thing as a race! so that makes it a "race". Very navel gazetastic.

It has nothing to do with navel gazing - two people choosing to race each other are in a race. Race. Racing.

In the UK there is a specific offence of "Motor racing on the highway". This requires only that two people are trying to out-speed each other. Podiums and prizes are not required.

Slideshowbob

Lumen wrote: »

It has nothing to do with navel gazing - two people choosing to race each other are in a race. Race. Racing.

In the UK there is a specific offence of "Motor racing on the highway". This requires only that two people are trying to out-speed each other. Podiums and prizes are not required.

Hmmmm "Motor" racing - ah the UK, the same place they are trying to take cycle racing off the roads !!!

ROK ON

Bob. I haven't tried to mislead anyone. I never claimed to have been in a race. But I could arrange a race that is not sanctioned by CI and if my protagonist and I were aware of the start, finish etc then it would be a race to us. It might have merit to those involved.
True it may not make it into the Times but who cares.

I will agree to disagree as we are only repeating ourselves.

My smugness won't let me finish without saying that my definition is more inclusive than yours. However I doubt that we will ever agree on any of this. So let's just leave it at that.

TinyExplosions

Slideshowbob wrote: »

That point exactly - if it's not governed by a national (or some other recognised body), it's not a race!!

And don't forget most club and inter-club races rely on Cycling Ireland insurance which is granted I gather under the races being run under the rules of the UCI.

I'm fully aware of the club racing scene... simple question then, if they aren't races, what are they?

petethedrummer

Slideshowbob wrote: »

That point exactly - if it's not governed by a national (or some other recognised body), it's not a race!!

And don't forget most club and inter-club races rely on Cycling Ireland insurance which is granted I gather under the races being run under the rules of the UCI.

Thats the point you are making now. Now that you have moved the goalposts once again. Your original comment was another snide remark against people who haven't completed the RAS or whatever level you achieved.

You now say you are trying to make things clear for newbies to the sport. Which is a joke. You are continually snide to low level racers on here and never ever post any advice to anyone on cycling matters, despite being a bloody expert.

Chips Lovell

Seriously Bob, what are you trying to achieve here?

The Marmotte is timed, there's prizes for the winners and placings, there's even a podium. In most people's eyes (not yours granted) that's a race. Not a UCI sanctioned race, but a race nonetheless.

Are you seriously saying that someone saying the won or placed in the Marmotte "de-merits endeavours of others" who've raced UCI sanctioned races?

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

Seriously Bob, what are you trying to achieve here?

The Marmotte is timed, there's prizes for the winners and placings, there's even a podium. In most people's eyes (not yours granted) that's a race. Not an UCI sanctioned race, but a race nonetheless.

Are you seriously saying that someone saying the won or placed in the Marmotte "de-merits endeavours of others" who've raced UCI sanctioned races?

That's exactly it Tonto, someone who has placed first in the Marmotte is a lesser cyclist that an A4 who wins around Batterstown

Slideshowbob

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I'm fully aware of the club racing scene... simple question then, if they aren't races, what are they?

If what aren't races?