Being a Gay Christian?

TylerIE

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the possibility of being Gay and also a Christian!

We all know that the Catholic stance is essentially sympathy but disapproval of "practicing homosexuality".

Maybe you feel that the bible has been misinterpreted - the old testament passages commonly cited are old testament and were referring to when homosexual acts were essentially used as a power play, and that the new testament references have been mistranslated or perhaps even selectively translated, and that God has no more issue with homosexual loving relationships than he has with hetrosexual relationships?

Maybe you feel that if there is a God he did create gay people to live a life of "abstinence" per the bible...

Or maybe you feel that God created everybody and that if he created you gay then you must be meant to be that way...

Or maybe you feel that the whole religion thing is nonsense....

Do you go to church? Did your faith affect your sexuality or coming to terms with it or coming out? Have you left Catholicism or another faith due to its stance on homosexuality but remain christian? Have you ever had a positive experience with clergy as regards your sexuality?
Have you or do you attend an LGBT friendly church? is there even any such thing in Ireland? Or maybe you belong to a Non - Christian Faith?

Iv met many LGBT people in their teens/twenties who feel that theres no point in being Religious - they feel they are going to go to "hell" because of their sexuality so there is no point in trying to be religious as they are "sinning" anyway.... How do you feel about that?

I dont need this to turn into either a bible bashing or pure anti Church/ Anti Catholic thread...
The forum mods have given permission to start the thread (the charter prohibits Religious threads in general) but will be monitoring it closely so please keep away from abuse!

L.Jenkins

Everything in the Bible is open to interpretation. Personally I'm an Atheist and I say be who you want to be.

lionchild

I'm not a religious person, but I came to the conclusion that religion just wasn't for me long before I knew I was gay. If there is a God, I would be of the opinion that humans were made equally by him...or her! I agree with what you wrote about the Bible being misinterpreted by man. In my opinion, it most definitely was. If we look at the history of Catholicism, it's easy to see that it's a male dominated religion and naturally a 'hetero' image and way of living was imposed as it was seen as the 'norm' and 'standard'. These ideals hence made their way into daily living practices and social consciousness.

If you are a proud Christian, I really wouldn't worry about it. Go to church, pray, do whatever you want. At the end of the day, as long as you're a decent human being, there seems to be, according to me, no need to worry. Treat others as you would like to be treated and you'll be fine. It may sound like common sense, but that's exactly what it is. You don't need religion to tell you that as it's a trait we are all born with. Don't worry, I'm pretty sure you're not going to hell! Relax and enjoy life, which I'm sure is what God would like you to do.

Beruthiel

lst wrote: »

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the possibility of being Gay and also a Christian!

Can I ask, are you posing this question because you are gay and christian and are in conflict?

TylerIE

Beruthiel wrote: »

Can I ask, are you posing this question because you are gay and christian and are in conflict?

Fair, albeit personal, question considering the thread I started.

Im from a staunchly Catholic family. When younger I would have got the message from the Catholic publications of "homosexuality is a terrible sin" etc, and for some time would have had conflict.

However for some time I would be of the belief that if you live a good life etc (as the previous poster states) that you need not worry.

My question comes more out of the, perhaps defensive, stance that many LGBT people feel or seem to feel with regards to Religion - Im gay therefore im condemned, or theres no point, or if there is a God he wouldnt give someone such a burden....

lionchild

lst wrote: »

Fair, albeit personal, question considering the thread I started.

Im from a staunchly Catholic family. When younger I would have got the message from the Catholic publications of "homosexuality is a terrible sin" etc, and for some time would have had conflict.

However for some time I would be of the belief that if you live a good life etc (as the previous poster states) that you need not worry.

My question comes more out of the, perhaps defensive, stance that many LGBT people feel or seem to feel with regards to Religion - Im gay therefore im condemned, or theres no point, or if there is a God he wouldnt give someone such a burden....

Exactly, children often look upon their parents as 'Gods' in their home. They have authority, give boundaries and set rules. Which is an absolutely vital thing. However, now that you're older, you should look upon your parents as separate human beings who have their own beliefs and values. You don't have to agree with or follow everything they say. This comes with time and if you are independent of your parents it is a lot easier.

So I'd chill about the whole thing. Don't worry about being gay, it' not a choice. You were born like this. Go live life and be a good person and most importantly have fun!

Nevyn

There are christian denominations which do not exclude LGBT people.

Chuchoter

Leviticus was only meant to be read by religious officials, it was not meant for general consumption, therefore the rule only applies to priests and rabbis if you take it on its own the way you're supposed to.

On top of that, the passage in Leviticus has been take out of its historical context and translated wrong. It says abomination, but 'Toveah' translates to mean 'idolatry', and this is because leviticus was also to distinguish between the Jews and the pagan fertility cults who practiced beastiality and male prostitution. This then means that homosexuality was not an abomination worthy of death in the eyes of god, but a homage to the pagan sects of the time and ritually unclean to Jews in the same way Pork is (thus has 0 relevance to Christians)

Throw that in the face of those protesters outside the Dail and see what they say. :cool:

In any case I do know gay Christians, they're universal unitarians, which I believe to be one of the accepting churchs but I don't know anything about it past that.

TylerIE

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are christian denominations which do not exclude LGBT people.

Perhaps one of the better known of these is the Metropolitan Community Church (described on wikipedia). They have churches throughout the UK mainland, and I believe had a prayer group in Dublin in the past.

I also believe the "Society of Friends" (Quakers) in the UK is quite welcoming of people of different sexual backgrounds.

I did hear references so a church in Dublin that does blessings for same sex couples, but am unsure who or where they are?

Beruthiel

lst wrote: »

Im from a staunchly Catholic family. When younger I would have got the message from the Catholic publications of "homosexuality is a terrible sin"

My parents are also very religious, yet I don't recall homosexuality ever coming up in a conversation or in any publications. Perhaps I came from a time where even to discuss it was still taboo.

My question comes more out of the, perhaps defensive, stance that many LGBT people feel or seem to feel with regards to Religion - Im gay therefore im condemned.

I'd be very curious to see the stats on how many LGBT people still feel that way from a religious pov.
I understand they still do because of social and peer pressure, but does religion still instagate that kind of pressure on this generation? I'd be very surprised indeed if it did.

Nevyn

crayolastereo wrote: »

this is because leviticus was also to distinguish between the Jews and the pagan fertility cults who practiced beastiality and male prostitution. This then means that homosexuality was not an abomination worthy of death in the eyes of god, but a homage to the pagan sects of the time and ritually unclean to Jews in the same way Pork is (thus has 0 relevance to Christians)

Which pagan fertility cults were these?
I only know of one pagan cult which was connected with male prostitution and it certainly wasn't a fertility cult.

DLohan

lst wrote: »

Fair, albeit personal, question considering the thread I started.

Im from a staunchly Catholic family. When younger I would have got the message from the Catholic publications of "homosexuality is a terrible sin" etc, and for some time would have had conflict.

However for some time I would be of the belief that if you live a good life etc (as the previous poster states) that you need not worry.

My question comes more out of the, perhaps defensive, stance that many LGBT people feel or seem to feel with regards to Religion - Im gay therefore im condemned, or theres no point, or if there is a God he wouldnt give someone such a burden....

I was reading the headline posts on the main page and saw this post. I am Catholic, I am not gay, I am a sinner - full of faults. It might seem odd to some people (my being a Catholic and all) but I don't for one minute believe that because someone is gay means that they are going to hell. I think that is an awful thought!!! In fact, there is absolutely nothing in Christianity that says that because someone "is gay" that they are going to hell.

The teaching of Christianity is often poorly understood. Those who wrote about living a good life are right in saying that this of utmost importance. Even if a man obeys the law of God, but does not live it, then he will not do Gods wish. This is what the story of the Good Samaritan is, in part, about.

The Gospel itself says -

(Matthew 21:31)
Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

And the message of Christianity cannot be used against itself selectively.

(John 3:16)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

And God is not against people. People decide if they are against God. Unlike what men say, the Gospel says - (Mark 9:38) - "whoever is not against us is for us".

Now if you gave something so dear to yourself wouldn't you make sure it was worth paying such a price? We must never be miserly with God's mercy. We shall all need it.

As regards Hell itself, the belief of some of the biggest saints in Catholicism was that very few actually went to Hell. The obsession with Hell is an unhealthy one - a bit akin to trying to describe the entire history of humanity, its achievements, challenges and failings, by focusing of the Penal System!

We cannot all live focusing on our faults, certainly mine are too many for me to keep abreast of them all, but we might be better then to trust in God's love and to live in Hope of God's mercy.

The Gospel also says that belief in God is important, so best not to diminish what is said on that account. The message of Christianity is defintely not one that we are capable of saving ourselves, but rather that through Christ we are saved. But neither does the message give us a license to commit any wrong-doing.

For my own part I believe that we all know there is Right and Wrong. And we all fail in relation to each. But we know too that we are not perfect and the decision we can make is whether we believe (as I do) that the Right is stronger than the Wrong and work on this basis.

Hmm_Messiah

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are christian denominations which do not exclude LGBT people.

There is a Christ who does not exclude LGBT people

So yes of course you can be (Gay andChristian)

It was a non - issue when he was here the first time , this time I'd think he's only concern would be justice, equality and freedom from oppression

TylerIE

Beruthiel wrote: »

My parents are also very religious, yet I don't recall homosexuality ever coming up in a conversation or in any publications. Perhaps I came from a time where even to discuss it was still taboo.



I'd be very curious to see the stats on how many LGBT people still feel that way from a religious pov.
I understand they still do because of social and peer pressure, but does religion still instagate that kind of pressure on this generation? I'd be very surprised indeed if it did.

Pope's Representative Blames Homosexuality for Child Abuse

Gay Hatred Not Part of Our Faith - Mary Kenny in the Irish Catholic

TDS Have a moral Duty to vote against Civil Union Bill

According to the Vatican: ''When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic law-maker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it.
''To vote in favour of a law so harmful to the common good is clearly immoral.''

The "alive" Magazine also regularly has anti-gay articles, but is not back-issued online for me to find them



Furthermore I can certainly confirm that there is a perceived stance of homophobia among many young LGBT people and their straight friends.

Beruthiel

Oh 1st, you don't even want to get me started on what I think of the Vatican or their current pope. That lot of crusty old men are so far out of touch with the reality of this world that it's become a joke.
Do you really think that this Irish generation can take them seriously?

TylerIE

Beruthiel wrote: »

Oh 1st, you don't even want to get me started on what I think of the Vatican or their current pope. That lot of crusty old men are so far out of touch with the reality of this world that it's become a joke.
Do you really think that this Irish generation can take them seriously?

No, I dont think any young people take them seriously. Also I dont want this thread to be anti Catholic / anti Pope (I really dont want it locked as it already is looking interesting, and will probably get moreso, but if it strays.....)

However I think that their messages give the message of its "all or nothing" - practicing homosexuality is wrong, therefore people living as LGBT members of society are sinners therefore God condemns us - etc.... ie they alienate all LGBT people from religion, not just Catholicism.

rainbow kirby

I'm an atheist. I never really did believe in anything, but I probably first articulated "I don't believe in any god" when I was about 12. This was a long time before I came out to myself! In some ways, I think my lack of belief did make the coming out process slightly easier, because I didn't have an internal conflict in terms of my beliefs and sexuality.

In terms of my family - my dad is agnostic but relatively conservative in his viewpoints, and my mum is a very liberal Christian (nominally Catholic, but I honestly think she would fit in better with a liberal Protestant denomination or the UUs or Quakers). Her view was always that the highest commandment of Jesus was to "love one another", that love is the most important thing in life - and this, thankfully, led her to be very accepting of me when I came out to her.

Dwn Wth Vwls

There's a documentary called 'For The Bible Tells Me So' that goes through all the references in the Bible and explains why they're not what they seem. It's done from a religious point of view (I don't think any atheists speak in it), so it's very useful for showing to religious parents.

TylerIE

Cheers for that Dwn Wth Vwls! I hadnt heard of it but am gonna get it.

If anybody else is looking it up I see its actually called

"For the Bible Tells Me so" (I was having trouble finding it as "tells us so".

Prayers for Bobby, another film, also shows how a mother unites Religion and Homosexuality after the death by suicide of her gay son.

Beruthiel

Latter Days would be another film. Though it's about Mormons, it's still on the religious theme.

tony1kenobi

lst wrote: »

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the possibility of being Gay and also a Christian!

A happy Gay Christian.

Heebie

You should question the premise of your original question.

Are you asking about being gay and being Christian (as in.. someone who believes in, and tries to follow the teachings of, Jesus Christ) or are you asking about being gay and being ROMAN CATHOLIC???

The two are very different matters. One does not have to be a member of an organised church to believe in Christ, and try to follow his teachings.

I was raised Roman Catholic.. but I haven't been to any church in years, because I think every organised church pretty much has the whole religion thing entirely wrong. I'd love to see the "One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church" as it's described in the Apostles' Creed recited at every (Enlish-language) mass, utterly ruined and destroyed by people flocking away from it in droves.. and I feel about the same about the Anglican church, the Episcopal church etc.. The closest thing I've seen to my own beliefs in a church tends to be the UCC (United Church of Christ) and I've never heard of a UCC congregation here in Ireland.

I really see no need, however, for a church to be in-between me and my belief in God and Christ... so I'm not "looking" to find a church, and I'm certainly not going to try & start a UCC congregation in the Dublin area.. although if there was one here.. I'd probably try going & see if it "fit"

I, personally, believe that God didn't make me the way I am. (read: gay) to make me miserable and test me to see if I would stray.. which is about the only way the Catholic church seems to be able to visualise homosexuality. The whole "vengeful" and "spiteful" God thing.. is VERY anti-Christ.. it's just not what he stood for while he was here, and I don't believe it's what he stands for now that he's "seated at the right hand of the Father" to borrow a bit more from my Catholic-dogma upbringing.

You should get over any ties you might feel to the Catholic church.. it's a corrupt organisation of morally bankrupt (male only) people that draws worship away from God as far as I'm concerned.

Dr. Baltar

I'm agnostic and I am bisexual.
One of my friends is gay and he is also devoutly Christian. It's horrible to see him get so depressed sometimes - he gets so down because he thinks he's an abomination ect.

I always say to him though, that the bible tells us to stone those to death who wear cloths of different fibres, to kill those who live in houses with mildew and that it's ok to beat our slaves so long as they don't die for three days.

The bible is fucked up, it's arachaic, and it has no place in today's society. Personally, if you want to believe in it, you may feel free to do so, but please do not rub that message of hate into my face.

"I know not what God is, but I know what he is not"

Heebie

That's a bit of a simplistic way to look at the bible...and.. the things you mention are in the OLD TESTAMENT.. also known as The Torah... it's Jewish book.. not a Christian book..although a lot of Christians live under the delusion that it is a Christian book, including most Catholics.

The New Testament has values like, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "Do unto others and you would have others do unto you."... which are entirely at odds with some of the old testament items, such as the ones you mentioned.

Even to an agnostic.. or even a true atheist.. there are many parts of the old & new testaments that still have a place in a modern society.. every bit as much as Aesop's Fables and the like. The Bible was never meant to be taken literally.. it's a series of stories with morals to help people (in this case believers.. really.. although many of the stories are relevant whether you believe or not.) live better lives.

Christ taught lessons meant to lead us to belief that we should help our fellow man.. but not at the expense of failing to enjoy our lives & what we have.. and that we should enjoy our lives and what we have.. but not at the expense of others. Those are really important lessons, whether they are within, or without, religious connotation.

That being said.. yes.. there's a lot of really horrible rotten stuff in the Bible... and if Catholics bothered to think for themselves instead of blindly following like sheep.. they'd realise that much of it is irrelevant today.. although, those bits can serve as a reminder of how things used to be, and how they should never be allowed to become again.

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I'm agnostic and I am bisexual.
One of my friends is gay and he is also devoutly Christian. It's horrible to see him get so depressed sometimes - he gets so down because he thinks he's an abomination ect.

I always say to him though, that the bible tells us to stone those to death who wear cloths of different fibres, to kill those who live in houses with mildew and that it's ok to beat our slaves so long as they don't die for three days.

The bible is fucked up, it's arachaic, and it has no place in today's society. Personally, if you want to believe in it, you may feel free to do so, but please do not rub that message of hate into my face.

"I know not what God is, but I know what he is not"

jill_valentine

You can't pick and choose which bits of a supposedly divine text you're cool with, and which you aren't. And you can't take one testament and not the other - it's all or nothing, it's supposed to be the word of the big guy himself, unchanged and infallible. And while I commend any effort by any of the various denominations to include LGBT folk, it seems to me that the only way they can actually do this is by bending the rules a little to allow it.

I can't really see any way christianity can be considered compatible with homosexuality, and the only gay christians I've ever known were left deeply unhappy and conflicted by their attempts to reconcile one with the other.

ixoy

jill_valentine wrote: »

You can't pick and choose which bits of a supposedly divine text you're cool with, and which you aren't.

Why not? The Pope does it all the time.

Heebie

That's Roman Catholic dogma, not a thinking human being with free will. Free your mind, and pick & choose what actually calls to YOU as the truth.. don't let anyone else dictate what you believe... instead.. believe what you do believe.. let your heart be your guide.. not a priest/bishop/cardinal/pope telling you "This is how it is, so this is how it is."

As for choosing just one part of the bible.... only one part is truly relevant for Christians.. Christ's purpose was to change all the rules because people weren't acting the way God had hoped.. if you're one of the faithful... Christ *IS* God.. if he changed the rules.. then the rules were changed.

The text that you're saying is "infallible".. was written by men.. who are fallible.. making it.. yes.. you guessed it.. very fallible.

God gave us free will for a reason.. don't waste it by being a sheep.

jill_valentine wrote: »

You can't pick and choose which bits of a supposedly divine text you're cool with, and which you aren't. And you can't take one testament and not the other - it's all or nothing, it's supposed to be the word of the big guy himself, unchanged and infallible.

Nebit

As has already been stated here, i believe everyone is free to believe what they want. Personally i dont believe that being christian conflicts with being a homosexual/bisexual etc

I was brought up a roman catholic but lived in areas with a variety of religions, to which i learnt a variety of useful lessons which i maintain to this day, threrefore i have no quarms with some teachings but i do with others not to mension organised religion.
By the time i was in secondary school i didnt believe in God. A long time before i had any interest in men.

I think christianity has more of a conflict with my career as an archaeologist/osteologist then with being one sexuality or other

citizenerased1

gotta remember the bible is essentially a 2000 year old (and even older) rule book, back then no one would of known anything about the topic and so they said it was wrong..why do we have to follow an outdated rule?I'm straight but i think we all got the same chances theres bad gay people and bad straight people too and vica-versa

Barna77

The catholic church hates me. I think I can live with that.

:rolleyes:

jill_valentine

You can't pick and choose which bits of a divine text which suit you because then, essentially, all you're doing is making up your own dogma anyway. And if you decide one bit of the Bible isn't truthful, then how can you believe any of it is? If any one bit of the bible is untrue, then the whole thing unravels like an ugly old jumper.

The only way you can make that work is, effectively, by not thinking too hard about it. A kind of convenient cognitive dissonance.