Loc8 Code

garydubh

peking97 wrote: »

I've never seen a company to discontinue their products as quickly as Garmin! ...And coupled with the fact that Garmin are to charge for unlocking it, unless the Loc8 system is adopted by the State I'm afraid it's dead in the water.:mad:

I'm afraid youv'e got it all wrong - Loc8 is not owned or controlled by Garmin - it is owned by a small Irish Company providing Irish Jobs in a small town in Cork - Crosshaven!!!

It is that company that is charging for the unlock fee. (Loc8 Code Ltd - formed to handle Loc8 Codes which were developed by GPS Ireland Ltd) Whether collected by Garmin or Loc8 - the fee is paid to Loc8. And this fee is a once off payment - unlike a similar fee paid by many for POI or Speed Camera files which is paid annually - the Loc8 unlock gives you unlimited Loc8 Code use for precise destinations for as long as your device survives. Furthermore there are no ongoing airtime related costs which may apply to many other satnav related services!!! The unlock fee contributes to ongoing development and maintenance costs and the cost of licensing very accurate Ordnance Survey mapping on the loc8code website used to deliver very precise Loc8 Codes. Part of the fee as you know includes VAT and Online payment costs which must be paid.

Also it is important to understand that Loc8 is not related to mapping and therefore also has nothing to do with map updates or the fees you pay for them.

Loc8 has been put in place with private investment and Loc8 is already widely used by people who really do not care if the Government adopts it or not! However you might be interested to know that a report on Communications back in the spring recommended Loc8 Codes (Then being tested via irishpostcodes.ie) see Page 17 here:

The Garmin 250 is discontinued for quite a while now and was replaced by the 2x5 series quite a while ago also;- as stated, a Loc8 update for 2x5 series is coming very shortly - already tested by Loc8 staff and Garmin will shortly make available and there will be a related cost for this also.

Loc8 will be made available for use on other manufacturer's devices and on Navigation software over the next few months - TomTom, Navigon, Navman, Magellan, Google, Ovi, Skobbler and others .............. Garmin helped with testing of Loc8 Codes over the last 2.5 years and and its launch in July and they are happy that it will be available to all device and software developers without restriction..................

so just to put the record straight peking97 - you have got it so completely wrong!

garydubh

peking97 wrote: »

I've never seen a company to discontinue their products as quickly as Garmin!.:mad:

I have just confirmed that the Garmin 250 was discontinued over 2 years ago !!!!
It is important that if people are buying SatNavs that they ensure that they are not old stock being sold off cheap even though they are discontinued. This is a real possibility these days because of the recession - manuacturer websites will tell you what is recent.
In fact I remember I posted here recently indicating that a product was discontinued even though another poster was recommending it for purchase and linking to a website where it was being sold. The product was a 200W which is the same line as the Nuvi 250 - so some are still selling products without warning that they are discontinued. It seems that this something all should be very careful of!

peking97

garydubh wrote: »

I have just confirmed that the Garmin 250 was discontinued over 2 years ago !!!!

I wasn't specifically referring to the 250. Have a look here:-
http://www.gpspassion.com/forumsen/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=82414

and you'll see what I mean!
I bought a 250W in Dec '07 and a 765T in Jun '09....both are listed as discontinued! If Garmin are serious about customer service I would expect them to cover the cost of unlocking some of their *older* models for Loc8 use.

garydubh

peking97 wrote: »

I wasn't specifically referring to the 250. Have a look here:-
http://www.gpspassion.com/forumsen/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=82414

and you'll see what I mean!
I bought a 250W in Dec '07 and a 765T in Jun '09....both are listed as discontinued! If Garmin are serious about customer service I would expect them to cover the cost of unlocking some of their *older* models for Loc8 use.

The 200 and 250 series are discontinued for at least 2 years.

Is the phone you got in 2007 still manufactured? - .....can't even remember what I had then!

Garmin will argue for themselves but new products are introduced when major hardware improvements are available - same as any other consumer industry products.

The 765 is still available and even listed as so on the Garmin website - as I said in my last post - better to check the manufacturer's website - always the best for factual info!

Again, it is Loc8 that does the unlock charging - not Garmin - so Garmin will NOT be covering any costs.

Loc8 Code is considered a major fuel and time saving solution and will save its unlock cost in fuel in a very short time! It will also save many phone calls asking for directions - a few days call credit will pay for it!

..............................................arriving at destination on left!

Are we there yet?

Sellphone

I have a Garmin 765T and most frustrating use of it is in towns and cities, when looking for business parks/industrial estates. So far it has failed me on this, however, great for getting out of tail backs.Any one any ideas on the business parks/industrial estates piece?
Ta

garydubh

Sellphone wrote: »

I have a Garmin 765T and most frustrating use of it is in towns and cities, when looking for business parks/industrial estates. So far it has failed me on this, however, great for getting out of tail backs.Any one any ideas on the business parks/industrial estates piece?
Ta

This is not just a problem for 765 - addresses in Ireland are just not unabiguous enough - this the problem that Loc8 is solving - get the owner/occupeir of the destination to give you a Loc8 Code.

Plans for Loc8 Code support on 765 not yet confirmed.

peking97

garydubh wrote: »

- get the owner/occupeir of the destination to give you a Loc8 Code.

This is not a very practical solution to finding a destination on a regular basis. It may be ok for a once-off and surely proves my earlier point that unless the system is adopted by the State then it's a non-runner.

boop de boop

peking97 wrote: »

This is not a very practical solution to finding a destination on a regular basis. It may be ok for a once-off and surely proves my earlier point that unless the system is adopted by the State then it's a non-runner.

Ive been reading yours and garydubh's comments and I think it seems to be a great and very useful idea. Peking, I'm really not understanding why you seem to be against the idea and rejecting sense... why ok to do for a once off but not on a regular basis? Once somebody has their Loc8 Code, hey have it for life and it seems they can give that to anyone. So if enough people have them to the point where people start to give them automatically rather than "do ya see that pub on the right, yeah take no notice of it and go straight ahead" type directions. Would be pretty useful no?

peking97

boop de boop wrote: »

Ive been reading yours and garydubh's comments and I think it seems to be a great and very useful idea. Peking, I'm really not understanding why you seem to be against the idea and rejecting sense...

Then might I suggest you re-read my posts as I'm very much in favour of the Loc8 system and have already expressed my opinion in that regard...see post 23 above.

boop de boop wrote: »

why ok to do for a once off but not on a regular basis?

Because, currently, it's too cumbersome to use on a regular basis. Don't forget that not everyone has instant web access. Also, believe it or not, not everyone has the ability to accurately find their own location on a map either.

boop de boop wrote: »

Once somebody has their Loc8 Code, hey have it for life and it seems they can give that to anyone. So if enough people have them to the point where people start to give them automatically

That's exactly my point about the system being adopted by the State. People will be issued with their code without their having to find it for themselves.

thebman

peking97 wrote: »

Then might I suggest you re-read my posts as I'm very much in favour of the Loc8 system and have already expressed my opinion in that regard...see post 23 above.
Because, currently, it's too cumbersome to use on a regular basis. Don't forget that not everyone has instant web access. Also, believe it or not, not everyone has the ability to accurately find their own location on a map either.That's exactly my point about the system being adopted by the State. People will be issued with their code without their having to find it for themselves.

I disagree entirely that the government should issue people the postcodes sent to their doors.

People are capable of getting to Internet access to do this without the goverment having to hire somebody to find every houses postcode and send it to them.

That sounds like baby sitting TBH. Isn't there Internet access in Libraries? Don't people have friends/families? Don't businesses want to give people an easier way of getting to them?

I think once people are being asked for their postcode, they'd get it no problems. Very few people would actually need help outside of this in which case they could go to the citizens information centre and ask them to help them.

peking97

Fair enough. Nothing wrong with disagreement. We're each entitled to voice our own opinions. I can just imagine the response of a seventy-year-old from half-way up a remote mountain when asked for his postcode so his new 3D TV can be delivered!

thebman

peking97 wrote: »

Fair enough. Nothing wrong with disagreement. We're each entitled to voice our own opinions. I can just imagine the response of a seventy-year-old from half-way up a remote mountain when asked for his postcode so his new 3D TV can be delivered!

Well my father is almost 70 and he has his loc8 code without my help and he lives 6 miles from the nearest town.

I should point out, I don't have a problem with TV/Radio ads informing people in advance that postcodes are coming, I just wouldn't support the waste of money of telling every household their loc8 code when they could just look it up online themselves as I have more faith in people to get them for themselves.

thegoth

Are Loc8Codes going to be the system used for the new official postcode system below ?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ryan-under-fire-as-firm-wins-euro05m-contract-on-postcodes-2361810.html

conolan

thebman wrote: »

Very few people would actually need help outside of this in which case they could go to the citizens information centre and ask them to help them.

According to Comreg the fixed broadband household penetration rate is 63%. A small number of additional people have mobile broadband. So a lot of households (almost 500,000) don't have easy access to internet. And many of those who do have internet won't bother getting their loc8 code due to apathy, technophobia etc. It will be VERY difficult to get use of a findityourself code above 50%. An addresscode system needs 90%+ to be really useful and only someone with a database of all households can achieve that. An Post & ESB are probably the only ones with reliable address databases.

The central weakness of Loc8 and other similar systems is an inability to push the codes out to users. Without that, it flops.

garydubh

conolan wrote: »

. An Post & ESB are probably the only ones with reliable address databases.

The central weakness of Loc8 and other similar systems is an inability to push the codes out to users. Without that, it flops.

There are many address databases - which one is not really the issue - it is how you convert an address to a useable code that fulfills all the needs.

The strenght of Loc8 is that people will (and do ) want to use it.

So what is your solution;- tell people they are to use a proposed ABC 123 Code because their post and utility bills can be delivered more quickly? - that is the justification that Royal Mail used and it took 50 years to gain 95% penetartion!

• iF 63% have broadband - then everyone knows someone that has it - not forgetting that they may have it at work and not at home
• You have not provided figures for connected mobile phones and handsets - more than 100% - including those that are now location aware - fastest growing mobile sector
• You have ignored the real "drivers" behind this - Emergency Services, Couriers, Service providers using 400,000 commercial vehicles.
• 10 million plus tourists and tourists related facilities that want to have Loc8 Codes - even the Burlington is already using a Loc8 Code

Think people get stuck in thinking "Letters" only when they consider this subject - the world has moved on to one which is location aware and is "connected" via mobile devices - think your understanding of this market Conolan might be a little outdated!!

conolan

garydubh wrote: »

So what is your solution;- tell people they are to use a proposed ABC 123 Code ....

It doesn't need to be abc123. It can be more detailed, but something meaningful to humans. Therefore county prefix and preferably a second letter indicating subregion then the gobbledygook. Something that start Y7N tells me nothing. However if it started WD (waterford) E (east) then it has possibilities.

FYI. My address returns only my village, unable to find the road and house number. OSI.ie pinpoints the house exactly. PM if you want to check it out.

garydubh

conolan wrote: »

It doesn't need to be abc123. It can be more detailed, but something meaningful to humans. Therefore county prefix and preferably a second letter indicating subregion then the gobbledygook. Something that start Y7N tells me nothing. However if it started WD (waterford) E (east) then it has possibilities.

FYI. My address returns only my village, unable to find the road and house number. OSI.ie pinpoints the house exactly. PM if you want to check it out.

1. Why use placenames when they are already in the address - no code would ever exist on its own without an address except in GIS - so use of placenames is no more than duplication!

2. If you use placenames you get into arguments about Irish or English versions

3. If you placenames to achieve the same resolution you end up with more characters

4. Case for not using placenames well tested and explored and examples where not used are Canada and NI (everywhere in NI is BT) and in many places in UK the placename applied is not associated with the area covered - same would happen in Waterford with those in Kilkenny and in Dundalk with those in Meath amongst many other examples. It is not as clear cut as you may think - Loc8 has considered all these possibilities!

Regarding mapping - Loc8 uses OSI mapping so they are one and the same maps and detail? - this is OSI 1:1,000 map detail used for design and planning www.loc8code.com/W8L-82-4YK (zoom in all the way)- this level of detail is not available from any other map supplier.!

PM me if you are having a particular problem that I am not understanding tks....

conolan

garydubh wrote: »

Regarding mapping - Loc8 uses OSI mapping so they are one and the same maps and detail?

But you're not using their database. You're using one of the satnav databases which don't have houses and estate built more than 5 years ago. OSI have it, and little drawings of the houses. Which is why they can pinpoint my address.

garydubh

conolan wrote: »

But you're not using their database. You're using one of the satnav databases which don't have houses and estate built more than 5 years ago. OSI have it, and little drawings of the houses. Which is why they can pinpoint my address.

We are using their map database - we are using the full OSI dataset right down to 1:1,000 with house polygons (outlines) on all large scales.

Can only assume some issue with browser or other - perhaps as we are drawing mapping from osi server your browser security is not allowing redirects from our site and you are seeing standby mapping?

thebman

I entered my address and got brought to right estate but wrong part of it in Opera, Chrome, Firefox (on linux so no IE).

The house number is correctly numbered on the map with the rectangle in right part of estate, it just brings me to a different location.

It looks like it might be right on the vertical but wrong on the horizontal. Actually a little off in the vertical too but not much off when zoomed in.

I can give you the address if you want it by PM so you can try it in IE?

garydubh

thebman wrote: »

I entered my address and got brought to right estate but wrong part of it in Opera, Chrome, Firefox (on linux so no IE).

The house number is correctly numbered on the map with the rectangle in right part of estate, it just brings me to a different location.

It looks like it might be right on the vertical but wrong on the horizontal. Actually a little off in the vertical too but not much off when zoomed in.

I can give you the address if you want it by PM so you can try it in IE?

Address search will not always bring you to the excat loaction - 40% of addresses are non uniuque - we get you as close as possible and then you move the rest of the way using map detail and mark the spot and generate the code!

If you got to the exact spot everytime you did a search - Ireland's address system would be perfect and we would not need a Loc8 Code in the first place!! Even if we had Geodirectory to use - still up to 40% would have multiple possibilities as they would be based on townlands or would have variations in language or spelling or they might even be vanity addresses!!!

Hope this helps

thebman

garydubh wrote: »

Address search will not always bring you to the excat loaction - 40% of addresses are non uniuque - we get you as close as possible and then you move the rest of the way using map detail and mark the spot and generate the code!

If you got to the exact spot everytime you did a search - Ireland's address system would be perfect and we would not need a Loc8 Code in the first place!! Even if we had Geodirectory to use - still up to 40% would have multiple possibilities as they would be based on townlands or would have variations in language or spelling or they might even be vanity addresses!!!

Hope this helps

oh ok well in that case, it works in all those browsers.

Occam

Sadly loc8 codes would be a terrible solution for the national postcode system. This is because :

1) Some properties have multiple loc8 codes. If we still end up with non unique addresses after the postcode system the whole thing would be pointless.

2) Some properties have to share their loc8 code with other properties.

3) There is no way for companies to map their existing address databases into loc8 codes

4) loc8 is not compatable with Geo Directory. The vast amount of data which has been tagged onto Geo Directory would need to be accesible using one of the new postcodes

garydubh

Occam wrote: »

1) Some properties have multiple loc8 codes. If we still end up with non unique addresses after the postcode system the whole thing would be pointless.

We will always have non unique addresses - it is coordinates or related Loc8 Codes that distinquish one from another. Every Loc8 Code is unique and related to a unique Location on the Earth's surface.

As an aside have you validated the codes you have created yet - a 1 star unvalidated code only has starter value!

Occam wrote: »

2) Some properties have to share their loc8 code with other properties.

If properties are directly above each other then they are in the same building and the building has a Loc8 Code - Loc8 has a provision for vertical identification if required,

Occam wrote: »

3) There is no way for companies to map their existing address databases into loc8 codes

Any address database that has geographic or Grid coordinates can immediately associated a Loc8 Code with each as Loc8 is mathemetically related to Geographic and grid coordinates. Geodirectory could have 1.7 million Loc8 Codes attached in a short time - some already have Loc8 Codes associated with Geodirectory addresses. Furthermore, Loc8 can do the same for non properties which do not have an address at all - a bus stop, a tram stop, a security hut a gate, a stand at an outdoor event, a Fire RV point etc etc.

Occam wrote: »

4) loc8 is not compatable with Geo Directory. The vast amount of data which has been tagged onto Geo Directory would need to be accesible using one of the new postcodes

Blatantly Untrue.....
As stated above, some already have Loc8 Codes associated with Geodirectory addresses.

Really I would have thought that posts should make some effort to stick to facts as known or refrain from mischievous statements - especially if posted on another board already with the same replies.

conolan

Occam wrote: »

Sadly loc8 codes would be a terrible solution for the national postcode system. This is because :

I disagree, to a point. LOC8 and any similar system that relies on exact geographic coordinates is about as accurate as one can get.

The big big problem is that is relies on individuals getting their own code. Apathy and inertia will rule.

Bear in mind that Irish people fail to claim €1.5Bn in tax credits for medical expenses, bin charges etc.

A huge proportion of the population won't look for their postcode. It has to be sent to them. And it should be easy to remember the first part of it, so it's only the last 3-4 digits that are difficult or meaningless.

nailer8

I don't see why we need loc8 codes or post codes for that matter. GPS coordinates with 4 decimal places are accurate to 11m. So with 12 numerical digits you can map anywhere on earth. (even 10 digits will give you 110m accuracy plenty for rural locations). And it's universal not country (worse still brand) specific.

Occam

garydubh wrote: »

We will always have non unique addresses - it is coordinates or related Loc8 Codes that distinquish one from another .

Given that the new postcodes will form part of addresses, we should not have non unique addresses when this exercise is complete. That is the whole point of postcodes, non unique addressing causes huge problems.

garydubh wrote: »

If properties are directly above each other then they are in the same building and the building has a Loc8 Code - Loc8 has a provision for vertical identification if required,
.

Its not only properties "directly above" each other that would suffer this problem is it ? The truth is that say in an apartment block, they all share the same loc8 code isn't it?

This would be unsatisfactory especially where buildings are of mixed use. For example it would be preferable to be able to at least distinguish the shops, office and apartments in a block. loc8 cannot do this.

garydubh wrote: »

Any address database that has geographic or Grid coordinates can immediately associated a Loc8 Code with each as Loc8 is mathemetically related to Geographic and grid coordinates. .

Yes but you are carefully avoiding the issue, on two counts.

Firstly the association would be to "a loc8 code", not *the loc8 code*. It would only link to one of the many loc8 codes which might identify the property.

Secondly ( and more importantly ) as I'm sure you are aware around 40% of current addresses cannot be put in a database which has "has geographic or Grid coordinates ".

This means that 40% of the addresses used by organisations cannot be mapped to the locate code "immediatly" as you claim.... or possibly at all.

garydubh wrote: »

Blatantly Untrue.....
As stated above, some already have Loc8 Codes associated with Geodirectory addresses.

Ok, if I am telling porkies, tell me how, say a bank for example, can get the loc8 code for a customer whose address is non unique ( but still a perfectly valid geodirectory address) such as "Rath, Ardee Road, Dundalk" ?

The answer is they can't, and that bank could never put loc8 codes around 40% of its customers addresses.

Which is blatently untrue now ?

garydubh

Occam wrote: »

Given that the new postcodes will form part of addresses, we should not have non unique addresses when this exercise is complete. That is the whole point of postcodes, non unique addressing causes huge problems.

Rather than shooting from the hip you should really consider what you are saying: As per the Post Code Project Board specification, as a result of introducing a postcode the address MUST NOT change. This will mean that addresses that are non unique will remain non unique. What makes an address unique its physical location on the ground. Geodirectory has already applied grid coordinates (ITM and ING) to resolve this non uniqueness but the problem is the owner does not know these Grid coordinates, most others don't either and if they did, they are hard to remember, most would not understand how to use them, they are open to confused interpretations if the user is not expereinced/trained and most popular consumer location aware solutions do not support Grid Coordinates.
So Loc8 takes these coordinates which already exist and converts them to a human useable format, removes possibility for error and the need for training and ensures that popular location aware solutions can use them. In addition Loc8 builds in error checking, quality ratings, user management and the ability to add codes to locations which do not have an address as there are many of such that people need to find routinely in their daily lives.

Therefore adding a Loc8 Code will make a non unique addres into a unique one. Unfortunately the current Governmment proposal which PA consultants is now reviewing will not make a non unique address into a unique one - a single proposed Government postcode (ABC 123) will be the same for up to 50 properties and will only identify the centre which could be in the middle of a late of even a park in a city. Furthermore, the proposal also states that the public will not be able to establish what properties and addresses are associated with each postcode....

I am sorry that you are not really understanding all this - but you are not alone - many do not; not least those in Government who are making the plans.

Occam wrote: »

Its not only properties "directly above" each other that would suffer this problem is it ? The truth is that say in an apartment block, they all share the same loc8 code isn't it? This would be unsatisfactory especially where buildings are of mixed use. For example it would be preferable to be able to at least distinguish the shops, office and apartments in a block. loc8 cannot do this.

Unfortunately you are getting everything confused - lets look at a tradional postcode - say the one in the UK..

The UK postcode relates to properties - i.e. a building and its footprint. A UK postcode has an average of 70 buildings in it nationally - i.e. 70 building footprints. To identify a particular property or part of a property (office, suite, room, apartment) identifiers such as numbers are used. So in the UK to identify a praticular property or part of one you require the postcode (up to 7 characters) and then also the property number and sub numbers so apartment number 2b, No 256 xxxx road, xxxx, London, SW19 1RQ. so may be up to 10 charcters to identify a single building levaing the sub identifiers aside.

So lets consider this in Irish terms - where they are needed, property numbers and sub numbers already exist and these cannot and will not change. In relation to Businesses, the property/office they use may have a name, number and subnumber as appropriate and then the business name will be associated with that property or subsection of a property also.

None of this will change. If you wanted, there is abosutely no technical problem identifying every cubic meter of structure in this country with a grid reference and an elevation (x,y,z) but this would be complicated and not gain popular use.

So whatever is to be used must identify the building and then let the existing number structures define what part of the building. In addition, where thare are long or expansive buildings with large footprints different occupiers can be identified by different Loc8 Codes - this is already being done by busineses and indeed as explained earleir Loc8 has already the capability to identify the floor in its code.

I think you are probably getting a lot of things mixed up - perhaps if you explained what your own application is or what probelm you are trying to resolve, then we can advise how this can be achieved.

Occam wrote: »

Firstly the association would be to "a loc8 code", not *the loc8 code*. It would only link to one of the many loc8 codes which might identify the property.

Think you are confusing yourself again here - above you are asking that if a property is subdivided it should have deiffernt Loc8 Codes and it can - no probelm. Now you are suggesting the opposite. In Geodirectory, the geometric centre of a property is given coordinates and these are associated with the address - these coordinates can be converted (simple desktop calculation) easily to a Loc8 Code and there you go - job done... futrthermore if the property is subdivided then through the Loc8 Code service the owner/occupier can optionally add a Loc8 Code for their particular part of the building or entrance.

So everything that you require is possible and is already being done - if that needs to be refined to suit a particular approach for a Government solution- then their is no probelm whatsoever at any time (onec you have geogrohic and address info you can refine in many ways on the desktop at any point)!

Occam wrote: »

Secondly ( and more importantly ) as I'm sure you are aware around 40% of current addresses cannot be put in a database which has "has geographic or Grid coordinates. This means that 40% of the addresses used by organisations cannot be mapped to the locate code "immediatly" as you claim.... or possibly at all. ".

This is blantantly, totally, completely and absolutely untrue - you are either seriously misinformed or deliberately mis-representing. Every Irish address has already has coordinates attached to it. These exist in the following ways:

1. As every address/property sits on the earth - it already naturally has both geographic and Grid coordinates - Lat/long, ITM, ING, UTM etc.
2. The Ordnance Survey has mapped these and produce detailed mapping with property polygons with their location in space defined by both ITM and ING coordinates - see their mapping at www.loc8code.com and at osi.ie.
3. The Geodirectory uses the map coordinates as mapped by OSI above and associates them with every address (not perfect errors and ommissions exist) - there are almost 1.8 million addresses and their coordinates already in the Geodircetory - available for some commercial organisations to license - it would appear that GeoDirectory can decide who they allow use this.
4. Google, Yahoo, Bing, Map24, TeleAtlas and Navteq have access to part of this info.
5. Government agencies, Local Authorities, ESB and other utility companies have access to their own subsets or versions of this
6. There are many private companies with their own address databases which include geographic coordinates. (just in case - geographic coordinates can be convrted to grid coorinates by desktop calculation)


I am sorry and this really is not meant to be derogatory but you are really either misinformed, mislead or simply being mischievous on this subject. I sincerely hope that you are not in a position where you are making decisons on this. If you are, really I do believe you should take the advice of some professionals. I can suggest the person at this link who is very experienced in Geogaparhic, Location, GPS and Mapping matters.

Occam wrote: »

Ok, if I am telling porkies, tell me how, say a bank for example, can get the loc8 code for a customer whose address is non unique ( but still a perfectly valid geodirectory address) such as "Rath, Ardee Road, Dundalk" ? The answer is they can't, and that bank could never put loc8 codes around 40% of its customers addresses. Which is blatently untrue now ?

As explained above - if it is in the Geodircetory - it already has coordinates therefore it automitically has a Loc8 Code. Bank, Courier anyone can put a Loc8 Code on any property and on any non property that is a delivery point for goods or services. Furthermore, the person at Ardee Road can also do it themselves by visiting www.loc8code.com which over 65,000 people have already done!

I am sorry but you really need to take a deep breadth and think and reasearch this further. You obviusly have a definite interest in this so it is a pity that you have not taken the time to be properly informed.

Also going back to a matter you raised here or somewhere else regarding Small Area Codes - some futrther info here and you may be aware that Prof Stewart Fotheringham is on record as stating that a precise coding system to identify individual properties is required in addition to the Small Area Codes.
And just to clarify, Small area codes where establsihed by NUIM and OSI to create areas of equal property numbers (or nearly so) so that they can be used for meaningful statistical analysis without compromising the privacy of individuals. As far as I am aware these codes will be used by the CSO for the census in 2011 and can be used by anyone for any admistrative purpose with Loc8 Codes used by indiduals to identy and find indiviual properties. This makes it even more outrageous that the Government postcode proposal which PA is now reviewing is actually an effort to completely redo the work of the small area codes wasting time and money and ignoring the work of professionals in favour of the advice of management consultants!

As it seems to me likely that you have a working interest in this subject and may be in a decision making role - can I suggest that you should get in contact with the person at this link to clarify detail which I believe you are not very clear on.

Occam

Rather than writing another long and meandering post why not simply answer two questions, and let people judge for themselves :

1) Can the loc8 be calculated automatically for the address posted earlier ? If so, what is it ?

If you cannot provide the code without a map, it prooves my point that companies will be unable to add loc8 postcodes to 40% of their addresses.

2) why does the loc8 website require users to place a pointer on the map even for valid geodirectory addresses ?

Isn't it simply because it is not possible to assign loc8 codes automatically to 40 % of addresses ?

The stupid thing is that the 60 % of addresses that locate works for, are the ones we have no problem with, they can be typed into any sat nab

garydubh

nailer8 wrote: »

I don't see why we need loc8 codes or post codes for that matter. GPS coordinates with 4 decimal places are accurate to 11m. So with 12 numerical digits you can map anywhere on earth. (even 10 digits will give you 110m accuracy plenty for rural locations). And it's universal not country (worse still brand) specific.

True but would you recognise dd.ddddd as against dd mm.mmm or dd mm ss.sss ? If you do great but I can tell you that most would not. Thesea re the 3 diffren ways that LatLong appears from many differents sources including Googel and SatNAVS - as well as 3 diffrent hemisphere representations (n,w and +/- or none) plus Lat/long reveresd to Long/lat and then there are 2 diffrent equivalent grid systems - ITM and ING.

If you can tell the difference - you are one of the few - most do not but try to make one fitr another and as they are all numbers - numbers will fit anywhere without being able to recognise errors.

N/+ 53.55745 W/- 9.98835
N/+ 53 33.447 W/- 9 59.301
N/+ 53 33 26.8 W/- 9 59 18.1

Which one is correct - they all are!

Ask the untrained to put the last one in to box and that box supports decimal degrees - and this could end up as:

N53.33268 W9.59181 (as they do not know any diffrent and it is possible to do) and this is 67.9 km in error and at least 1 hour away by road!!!!

So great if you are dealing with trained users but not suitable if you are dealing with the general population and relying on them being used by somone like an ambulance driver where it is too late to find out someone gave dd mm ss.ss by mistake and it was just punched into the available spaces on the SatNav when he has arrived in Ballymun and it should be Ballyboden!

Also just to make the point that if you derive a location from Google Earth in Ireland, which you might express it to a resolution of +/- 11 metres in Lat/long (amount will vary depending on latitude!) the imagery on Google may be in error by further 10's of metres. Some imagery Google uses is in error by up to 40m in places - has not been properly ground truthed - you can note if you compare road lines to the equivalent image (road lines more near correct) and even with street view you will note the camera icons do not necessarily follow the image of the related road.

Something that is going to be used for safety critical applications cannot be open to interpretation, have multiple sources and formats and no means of error checking. This is what Loc8 Does - it is Lat/long and Grid in human friendly format which has error checking built in and has only one source so that there are no variations - www.loc8code.com

Finally 110m accuracy is not good enough for rural areas!

People trying to find properties in rural areas will use Satnavs or other GPS enabled devices- 110m accuracy may bring you to a road at the back of the building but there may be a wall and no entrance when the real entrance is on a diffrent road - 15 minutes away. I have spoken to people where this has happened and 10's of minutes have been lost through this type of inaccuracy.

Also 110m could bring an ambulance to a location on a motorway when the accident is actually on a road beside it but the ambulance would have to drive another 5/10Km to get off the motorway to get there - losing 10's of minutes.....

We need to be as accurate as possible with all of this and that is why Loc8 is using OSI mapping for property Loc8 generation - decimal places just indicate precision not accuracy and with Lat/long the accuracy associated with a particular number of decimal places changes depending on Latitude because of the curvature of the Earth!