Loc8 Code

garydubh

Occam wrote: »

Rather than writing another long and meandering post why not simply answer two questions, and let people judge for themselves :

1) Can the loc8 be calculated automatically for the address posted earlier ? If so, what is it ?

If you cannot provide the code without a map, it prooves my point that companies will be unable to add loc8 postcodes to 40% of their addresses.

2) why does the loc8 website require users to place a pointer on the map even for valid geodirectory addresses ?

Isn't it simply because it is not possible to assign loc8 codes automatically to 40 % of addresses ?

The stupid thing is that the 60 % of addresses that locate works for, are the ones we have no problem with, they can be typed into any sat nab

If you call detail and explanation remabling then there is not much point communicating with you on here.

Basic fact is that 40% of addresses in Ireland are non unique and if this was not the case then we would not need a Loc8 Code at all.

This can be resolved by converting all addreses in Geodirectory to a Loc8 Code (desktop calculation as explained several times) and then sending a letter to the owner and give the postman a GPS to be sure he is delivering to the right one - then every onwer knows their Loc8 Code and each address has an identifier which can be used by humans. This you would do if it is a Government system and you are imposing a code on everyone. (Howver, do not believe that what is being reived by PA will even do this as itt is desinged not to resolve the 40% non unique addresses)

If there is a system that people opt to use because it is of benefit to them and the people that deal with them - then you ask the owner of the property to identify their's on the map and then gerenate the code - this can then be cross referenced back to Geodirectory. Property owners then have their code and they can electively pass on to whoover they chose. (optional for private users)

Two approaches achieving the same thing but one is an imposed solution (Government) and the other is an elective system.

Loc8 is currently elective (people do because it is of use to them whether busines or private and shortly they will do because people who provide them with services will ask them to do it so that they can be more efficient).

Over 65,000 people have already done it because they see a benefit in using it - many more will shortly do it because couriers and web reatilers are asking for it. Over 3,000 businesses have already done it - including 149 in County Galway alone. The Burlington Hotel in Dublin as well as hundreds of other businesses are already using Loc8 Codes on their website. (nailer8 - note that the Burlington is seperately using dd mm.mm which is valid and they probably got from Google but if we had a system for decimal degrees then the untrained may "fit in" as N53.19866 W6.15080 which is actually in Bray!!!)

If Loc8 became a system to be used as a national postcode then the the first option requiring the ltter to be deovred to every door would then be applied.

As you do not seem to appreciate the time I am putting in to explaining (rambling as you call it) this and replying to your specific questions it is probably best if we carry it on further offline - please PM me and we can get in contact by other means - I really think this would be useful.

IrlJidel

garydubh wrote: »

If you are, really I do believe you should take the advice of some professionals. I can suggest the person at this link who is very experienced in Geogaparhic, Location, GPS and Mapping matters.

Is boards' garydubh and Gary Delaney not the same person?

Interesting debate, but in the interest of transparancy should you not indicate that the boards user garydubh and Gary Delaney are the same person? Maybe you could use a seperate loc8 user when you are posting in a professional or private capacity.

If garydubh is not Gary Delaney I apologise for my error.

conolan

IrlJidel wrote: »

Is boards' garydubh and Gary Delaney not the same person?

I believe they are.

Occam

IrlJidel wrote: »

Interesting debate, but in the interest of transparancy should you not indicate that the boards accounts garydubh and Gary Delaney are the same person? Maybe you could use a seperate loc8 user when you are posting in a professional or private capacity.

Also would be interesting to get clarification on whether the user accounts lisard, alawlor, boob de boop fairlead and garydubh are connected.

They all seem to have joined on the day of their posts (which were remarkably pro loc8), and didn't log in again or comment on other threads. Surely it would be unwise for loc8 to use such obvious sock puppetry , if this were the case?

Anyway, all seems to be over now that the huge problems with using loc8 have been made clear.

KoolKid

I have asked garydubh to clarify a few things.
@ Occam please refrain from back seat modding.
If anyone has issues use the report post function or PM me.

conolan

Anybody know what the currect status of the postcode implimentation is? last thing I can find is cancellation of a tender in April.

eirman

I've tried to get my exact loc8code about 6/7 time and the osi mapping has been temporarily unavailable, each and every time. Am I just unlucky or what.
I have my exact lat/lon coordinates so I suppose I could do a conversion.

Anyone know when I can get loc8 on to my Nuvi 760 ?

garydubh

eirman wrote: »

I've tried to get my exact loc8code about 6/7 time and the osi mapping has been temporarily unavailable, each and every time. Am I just unlucky or what.
I have my exact lat/lon coordinates so I suppose I could do a conversion.

Anyone know when I can get loc8 on to my Nuvi 760 ?

OSI mapping constantly available - have PM'd support suggestions - support can be got at support@loc8code.com.

760 is a discontinued product, it was replaced 2 years ago by 7x5 series. As such Garmin currently has no plans to release a Loc8 unlock for it.

There is a place for feedback on this and related matters here

(I am refraining from general comment/discussion at present - I posted in this case as it relates to support matters that can be immediately clarify)

garydubh

Occam wrote: »

Also would be interesting to get clarification on whether the user accounts lisard, alawlor, boob de boop fairlead and garydubh are connected.

They all seem to have joined on the day of their posts (which were remarkably pro loc8), and didn't log in again or comment on other threads. Surely it would be unwise for loc8 to use such obvious sock puppetry , if this were the case?

Anyway, all seems to be over now that the huge problems with using loc8 have been made clear.

I am sorry that it has taken a while to reply to Occam's allegations above.

1. There was a user name called "Gary Delaney" created in early 2008 and a few posts (4/5) were made using that name. No posts were made using that name since MARCH 2008. Garydubh commenced posting Aug 2008. Therefore no "sockpuppetry" of any sort regarding both these user names took place at any time - infact there was a several month lapse betwen last post one and 1st post the other. The user name "Gary Delaney" has now be removed as it is defunct.

2. Garydubh has posted routinely on matters relating to GPS and Postcodes since August 2008 - in relation to GPS, Garydubh has offered advice and suggestions including a well read "sticky" and in relation to postcodes, garydubh has reacted to others' comments/questions/statements and has contributed informed and rational comment and made every effort to answer in detail any questions raised.

3. garydubh does not post on boards under any other name. garydubh has no control over others who may wish to post in support of Loc8 Codes. There are many who are "pro Loc8"

4. Occam's allegations of sockpuppetry are therefore wholly untrue

KoolKid

Thank you garydubh.
I have checked the accounts in question & ,with the exception of the accounts clarified by garydubh,there is no conclusive evidence to suggest the other accounts are the same person.
I would consider this matter closed. If anyone still has concerns please use the report button or PM me.

Delphic

Go Code are now claiming on Facebook to have 1 million addresses with GoCodes compared to the 45,000 that Loc8/Garmin have.

yuloni

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Delphic

Condi wrote: »

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in fairness I don't think they're claiming that 1 million users logged on, Condi. What difference does it make as long as they have location codes for each address? Their user test site seems to have a lot of addresses logged in accurately. Why would you want them to go away?

yuloni

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Delphic

Condi wrote: »

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Fair enough. Though I don't think you're right on a few of your assumptions.
Verified codes means nothing beyond someone went on to the site and said here's a code for a place. It's possible to put a code in the wrong place, so how verifiable they are is open to question.

How much codes are being used is not easy to measure. Both codes work on satnav systems and one of them works on mobile/iphone as well. How much people are using them is difficult to tell, beyond recounting personal experience. You say you've tried both, and Loc8 is streets ahead in their league. if they both point to a location, and you can use them on satnavs, what's the difference? None. So then it comes down to how many codes are available for addresses/locations and how or where you can use them. Gocode seem to have the edge on that in my view.

You say that "every code should be independently generated by a competent person logging in and creating the code." This is fanciful stuff - not every person is going to log in and do that. It'll be 2020 before they're done. maybe another 10,000 might do it, or some other plausible number and after that the rest will have to be autogenerated as you put it on loc8 as they are at the moment from an existing address database. Not much difference really, except the volume of codes that each company has. Go Code have the advantage because they've been operating for 3 or 4 years, loc8 only started their code collection system 3 months ago.

I don't know the quality of the data in either database - I've tried ones in Go Code and they've worked, ditto Loc8.

Your characterisation of contributors doesn't seem to be borne out by evidence of postings. I could only find one thread in which gocoder posted. Here's a sample of some comments:

"If people would like an explanation of how it works, purpose, etc. I'm happy to do so. Feedback welcome, if people want to give it or to discuss."

"Hi - what are you looking to achieve with requesting this information? Is it a way to convert geo-coordinates to a location code? Or do you want to know the layout/coverage of the area levels within the location code design e.g. Loc8, GO Code, etc. .... I'm not sure if we can assist you in the problem you want to solve, but if you want to PM me, feel free."

"One of the issues the Dept of Comms has to consider is whether they want to have a code that is designed primarily for postal delivery and some area analysis, and has some added functionality to give precision to particular elements OR are they interested in having a more dynamic code such as GO Code or Loc8 which are digital location codes as defined by Garydubh above?"

"In your view, will a cluster-based code - identifying 10-20 properties depending on whether its urban or rural location according to the Dept - have sufficient functionality or will it be limited by the size of the polygon it defines i.e. number of buildings?"

"On the website, we're currently using Google Maps. OSI is an option for us to use as well. On the apps it's a combination of Google or on-phone maps - Nokia, etc. And of course the mapping in any satnav software that you've got installed."

Why would you describe these contributions as "merely enjoying free plugging opportunities" since they clearly answer questions, provide clarity, discuss points, and in fact mention both code designs impartially?

boop de boop

Delphic wrote: »

Fair enough. Though I don't think you're right on a few of your assumptions.
Verified codes means nothing beyond someone went on to the site and said here's a code for a place. It's possible to put a code in the wrong place, so how verifiable they are is open to question.

You say you've tried both, and Loc8 is streets ahead in their league. if they both point to a location, and you can use them on satnavs, what's the difference? None.


Go Code have the advantage because they've been operating for 3 or 4 years, loc8 only started their code collection system 3 months ago.


Its very poosile to put the pointer in the wrong place, but lets be honest, how many people do not know their own house our work place well enough to point out on a garden detail O.S. map?? ALOT more people know where they are than some random person in some office being paid to generate code (probably doing a half-arsed job!)

Both can be used on Satnavs but Loc8 code is the only one that can be typed manually into a satnav (therefore handy if receiving from someone while in a car etc)

not true, Loc8 Codes were released as 'PON Codes' since 2006!

yuloni

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Delphic

boop de boop wrote: »

Its very poosile to put the pointer in the wrong place, but lets be honest, how many people do not know their own house our work place well enough to point out on a garden detail O.S. map?? ALOT more people know where they are than some random person in some office being paid to generate code (probably doing a half-arsed job!)

Both can be used on Satnavs but Loc8 code is the only one that can be typed manually into a satnav (therefore handy if receiving from someone while in a car etc)

not true, Loc8 Codes were released as 'PON Codes' since 2006!

You're right boop de boop - it's very possible to put the pointer in the wrong place. Accidentally or deliberately. That';s the point.

You're right - Garmin's Loc8 codes can be manually entered on certain Garmin devices. You can enter Gocodes on iPhone with various satnav programmes. All depends on what you want.

What I meant was that Loc8 only started code collection 3 months ago - under their new code design and name with Garmin. GoCode started over three years ago which gives them an advantage in being first in the market and having a much higher numbers of codes in their online address book. Stands to reason they'd be ahead of them.

Occam

Condi wrote: »

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You are missing the whole point.

It would be ideal if they could auto generate the code from a database, as that is what hundreds of companies will have to do. For example, when this postcode system gets up and running the banks\eircom\bord gais\revenue\social welfare\hospitals etc will need to add the code to their addresses.

Most of the existing implementations are unable to auto generate the code for 40% of Irish addresses. If companies can't put postcodes on 40% of their addresses, the system will be a flop.

Delphic

Condi wrote: »

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Wow - you went to a lot of trouble there Condi. I'm not insulted at all. It's a message board, full of anonymous people. Who's there to insult? Being associated with GoCode? Don't worry about it.

I agree with pretty much all of your points except:
- the mapping bit cos of poor satnav mapping
- Google ain't that bad with Street View.
- owning/managing a code - neither Gocode nor Loc8 can make that happen
- Don't get reference to 'the link' or iTunes. what link?
- of course you would try get a code of a place you don't even know - that's the whole point. Having a look-up database makes complete sense. Both codes should have one.
- auto-generating. Actually it was your phrase I borrowed - what did you mean by it anyway? (I'm joking, btw, you don't actually have to tell me.)
- PON is dead, long live the PON... As you rightly said - new system..etc
- stick to your guns man. If you like Loc8, stick by your decision, none of this wishy-washy 'I'm trying to find out' which is the best, peppered with faux sad faces. No you aren't. You've already said that Loc8 is streets ahead in your view. Stay with it. It needs your support.

Here's an official smiley for you.

yuloni

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thebman

Occam wrote: »

You are missing the whole point.

It would be ideal if they could auto generate the code from a database, as that is what hundreds of companies will have to do. For example, when this postcode system gets up and running the banks\eircom\bord gais\revenue\social welfare\hospitals etc will need to add the code to their addresses.

Most of the existing implementations are unable to auto generate the code for 40% of Irish addresses. If companies can't put postcodes on 40% of their addresses, the system will be a flop.

I thought this point was addressed earlier?

No system can accurately tell you where an address is at the moment which is part of the reason for location codes in the first place.

Delphic

Condi wrote: »

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Good stuff. Wasn't implying you were false - the sad emoticons are faux - you're not really sad, that's what I mean. The rest was just jibing.

Mapping - sure OSI imagery is far better. Consider this. If someone hasn't already. The map detail is there already on the OSI site. And they have a look-up address database. And they provide coordinates at the bottom as well. Easy for reference checking addresses and their accuracy - wouldn't you say - even by a deskbound, half-arsed chimp in a darkened room. I wouldn't call that auto-generation, just very tedious.

I get your point about ownership of the code detail. It's a bit like a business directory listing. The free directory listings that Google run for example - you can amend the location and details they have for businesses - and then they sell it onto other people. But locations are not uniquely held, and as you say the 40% are the more important ones to identify. (assuming everyone wants to be identified of course.) Even those I suspect can be easily reduced. In time, it will whittle down to a much smaller number. Already friends I know living in rural ireland can now be found in the Google database that weren't there a few years ago - and it'll improve further.

I get the iTunes link reference now - you meant about the Gocode iPhone app - it links to various satnav programmes on the iPhone/iPad platform (I've seen it working on both) - works with TomTom, Navigon, Copilot and a couple of others I think. I have it on my iPhone (300,000 users and rising) It also works directly with HTC Windows Mobile/CoPilot, Blackberry and Nokia (not great on some models in these last two in my view). They all support it, if that's what you're asking.

For all that, location codes are possibly an endangered species in Ireland. All two of them. And don't get your hopes up - they're both alpha males. So question is - can they a find big rich momma to keep them alive, and producing lots of little codes?

Bards

I've been using LOC8 codes since they started to become publicily available. If I am going somewhere I have never been, I get the person to whom I am going to meet to go to the LOC8 website and pin point their location and they send me the code.

I have even requested boarsies to use it to pin point locations in other towns/cities for me without a problem.

I can then see exactly where they are located and send the result to my Sat Nav.

The feedback I am getting is that it is very easy to use and some people never knew it existed and they are going to stat to use it themselves.

I even use it myself to pin point where I want to go If I cannot get someone on the other end to do it for me. E.G Quick Pay Car Park DUblin Airport. I was never there before but I was able to use their rough map to piin point the exact location on LOC8 and generate the code.

P.S I have NO affiliation to LOC8, Go-Code, Navteq, Tom-TOm, Garmin, Teleatlas etc.

Occam

thebman wrote: »

Occam wrote: »

It would be ideal if they could auto generate the code from a database, as that is what hundreds of companies will have to do. For example, when this postcode system gets up and running the banks\eircom\bord gais\revenue\social welfare\hospitals etc will need to add the code to their addresses.

I thought this point was addressed earlier?

No system can accurately tell you where an address is at the moment which is part of the reason for location codes in the first place.

No solution to this problem has been proposed by loc8 or GoCode. It may be this very reason that we have to go with a solution other that the two mentioned above.

If there isn't ( or in this case, can't be ) widespread usage of the postcodes they system is pointless.

conolan

Probably the best way to get the codes is for An Post to pay their postal delivery people to go to each front door and take a GPS coordinate. Should be possible to develop a method of tying this in with their existing geodata.

I don't have faith in the idea of getting granny to find it herself. She won't bother.

thebman

Occam wrote: »

No solution to this problem has been proposed by loc8 or GoCode. It may be this very reason that we have to go with a solution other that the two mentioned above.

If there isn't ( or in this case, can't be ) widespread usage of the postcodes they system is pointless.

Yes but that will have to be done no matter what system is chosen really.

I mean if they go with a database system, they still have to give each household a postcode and work out where that postcode is for it to be of any use to anyone.

It is the whole problem the postcodes are going to solve. What Loc8 and GoCodes are selling isn't a solution to that problem (as one doesn't exist other than to go do it), they solve the what method/algorithm to use issue and have done work to ensure no offending names appear and that the codes are unique etc...

This is work the government now will not have to do if they select one of these companies which is a saving. I like conolan suggestion on how they people could be given their postcodes.

Buy a few handheld printers and hook them up to software on a phone/device and as the postman goes round, he prints the postcode there and then and puts it through the letterbox. They wouldn't need ones for all postmen, they could just rotate them until the job was done to save money although it would mean a slower roll out.

Occam

conolan wrote: »

Probably the best way to get the codes is for An Post to pay their postal delivery people to go to each front door and take a GPS coordinate. Should be possible to develop a method of tying this in with their existing geodata.

All this does is give the householder their own postcode (which they don't need).

The mechanism of how we get that postcode into widespread use is the problem. In your proposal the person would have to do something like phone or write to each company, and person, who wants their postcode. I don't imagine esb\banks\eircom etc fancy getting, literally, millions of phone calls.

thebman wrote: »

Yes but that will have to be done no matter what system is chosen really.

Not true. The UK system for example assigns postcodes to groups of properties ( as does loc8 in the case of apartments ). While we can argue the merits of assigning a single postcode to all the houses on a rural road for example, to say it would have to be done no matter what system is chosen is untrue.

Of course the other benefit of assigned addresses would be that we could easily have multiple levels of accuracy. So for example all of the houses with an address of "long lane, ballybog, galway" could have a 1st level postcode of G24 (ballybog), a second level of G24C3 ( long lane ) and another level which might indicate the actual house, such as G24C3R (which we know the coordinates for). I'm sure we could easily come up with a structure which would allow us to tell one level from the next.

This would allow us to put G24C3 onto all of the existing addresses automatically, and still offer the resident the ability to supply whoever they wished with an exact co-ordinate level postcode by using G24C3R

thebman wrote: »

What Loc8 and GoCodes are selling isn't a solution to that problem (as one doesn't exist other than to go do it), they solve the what method/algorithm to use issue and have done work to ensure no offending names appear and that the codes are unique etc...

Loc8 codes are not unique. It's one of the problems with Loc8 codes.

thebman wrote: »

This is work the government now will not have to do if they select one of these companies which is a saving.

It would only be a saving if the cost of licensing\buying loc8 was less than the cost of developing a similar algorithm. A similar algorithm can be developed very cheaply.

Delphic

Occam wrote: »

Loc8 codes are not unique. It's one of the problems with Loc8 codes.

It would only be a saving if the cost of licensing\buying loc8 was less than the cost of developing a similar algorithm. A similar algorithm can be developed very cheaply.

What do you mean by "Loc8 codes are not unique"? Because it's possible to develop another algorithm in the future? Or because of the fact that other GPS-based location codes already existed before it came on the market? Or both?

conolan

Occam wrote: »

All this does is give the householder their own postcode (which they don't need).

They do need it. To give it to delivery companies, put it on their application forms etc.

Occam wrote: »

The mechanism of how we get that postcode into widespread use is the problem. In your proposal the person would have to do something like phone or write to each company, and person, who wants their postcode. I don't imagine esb\banks\eircom etc fancy getting, literally, millions of phone calls.

No. An Post would then have all the data, addresses matched with codes, and license it to those who need it.