Loc8 Code

Occam

Delphic wrote: »

What do you mean by "Loc8 codes are not unique"? Because it's possible to develop another algorithm in the future? Or because of the fact that other GPS-based location codes already existed before it came on the market? Or both?

Neither - I mean that under loc8 groups of properties/addresses can share the same code, e.g. Shopping centers, apartment blocks.

Occam

conolan wrote: »

No. An Post would then have all the data, addresses matched with codes, and license it to those who need it.

But an post already has this data. They have coordinates for (almost) every delivery address in the state. Heck we could even generate loc8 codes for every address in the state.

Getting the data is not the problem. Getting it into widespread use is. Getting the codes onto existing address databases is the problem, especially for non unique addresses

conolan

Occam wrote: »

Neither - I mean that under loc8 groups of properties/addresses can share the same code, e.g. Shopping centers, apartment blocks.

I'm not sure that uniqueness is essential. Surely the objective is to get the person to the door (or gate). After that it's look or ask when it's apartment no./suite no./ shop or whatever.

Unique identifiers (and checksums) add complexity therefore reduce the number of people who know their postcode.

Occam

conolan wrote: »

I'm not sure that uniqueness is essential. Surely the objective is to get the person to the door (or gate). After that it's look or ask when it's apartment no./suite no./ shop or whatever.

Unique identifiers (and checksums) add complexity therefore reduce the number of people who know their postcode.

Totally agree. The system should be extensible to allow unique identification, but flexible enough to allow adding a postcode automatically for existing databases, in a similar way to my example above

Delphic

Occam wrote: »

Totally agree. The system should be extensible to allow unique identification, but flexible enough to allow adding a postcode automatically for existing databases, in a similar way to my example above

Could you put that in simple English with your example?

conolan

Delphic wrote: »

Could you put that in simple English with your example?

I'll try.
"extensible to allow unique identification" = 4 significant digits for latitude and longtitude (52.xxxx, -7.xxxx)

"flexible enough to allow adding a postcode automatically"
Not sure about that one. Any system based on location gives a latitude and longitude. Matching them to databases is problematic, but that's not a product of the code, it's a product of the fact that all the databases were compiled without postcodes (because there wasn't one).
Some of the geo databases will be able to assist with that one, but just for unique addresses.

It will take years before any postcode will be adopted sufficiently to make an impact, but we have to do it.
I just despair at the 2 offerings (loc8 & gocode) because their codes are too long and can't be related to anything we are already familiar with.

A 6 character code with meaningful prefixes for half the population that is as accurate as the current offerings is possible. More anon.

garydubh

Some facts which Occam and Conolan need to try understand:

1. Every property in this country already has a unique identifier in the form of Grid coordinates - ITM and IG - both of which are routed in Geographic coordinates (Lat/Long) (all interchangeable) As Loc8 is also related to all mathematically, every property in the country already has a Loc8 Code. The method by which an allocated postcode (can be a Loc8 Code) is communicated to each property owner/occupier as part of impelkmentation as a National system is matter for those who win the tender - and there is most definitely a very clear plan for this!

2. Whether an adopted code is 3,6,7,8 or 10 characters depends on the spec for it - so we do not start with the number of characters but rather what needs the code is intended to resolve and therefore what number of characters can achieve that. It would be worthwhile for onlookers to understand that all who have researched this over a long number of years will tell you that you cannot achieve a unique code with just 6 characters (no matter how much more is "anon")

3. As for Loc8 being "too long" - again this is the comment of someone who has no techical understanding of this problem... the UK postcode is mostly 7 characters long and a property number is then required to identify an individual property - so 9 or 10 characters long to identify a single property and not capable of identifying anything other than a fixed property - not a caravan, a security hut, a boat or canal barge being used as a home or even a mobile home!

A Loc8 Code is a finite 7 characters - no need for property numbers (40% of irish properties do not have them) and still capable of applying a unique code to non properties of all types. Loc8 has an 8th character added to to make the code self checking for safety critical applications as that is included as a requirement in the Loc8 specification. So not long at all really compared to the UK and no comparison in terms of the infite capability of a Loc8 Code.

As for "meaningful prefixes" - do you mean something that reflects the county or town - why?- it's in the address already - a code would never be used without an address and you are just adding unnecessary characters to repeat what is already there - what is the point of this and how would it help if the prefix used is for a postal town which is in a different county - post for parts of Waterford is handled in Yougal Co. Cork. This is only reflects an An Post sorting process which is of no value to a courier, service provider, a visitor from another part of the country or even tourist....... (take a look at the Canadian postcode)

And just to be clear again because Occam appears not to be able to understand this - as the GeoDirectory has 1.8 million addresses already with Grid coordinates - all of these immediately have a Loc8 Code as Loc8 Codes are a mathemetical derivation of Grid/geographic coordinates - the fact that 40% of addresses are non unique does not hamper this at all. The problem with any adopted postcode arising out of the non unique aspect is how to communicate the code to owners/occupiers and as I said before, there are many solutions to this but that is a matter for the detail of a tender proposal !!!

Finally Occam has a problem with apartments in a building all having the same postcode/Loc8 Code - perhaps he should try understand that it is the building that has the code not subdivisions within it - however if the building is elongated and has multiple entrances serving different businesses/occupiers then a Loc8 Could can saisfy that requirement.

I must say at this point - after 5 years of debate, design and discussion, you would imagine that people commenting would have at least managed to get a handle on the basics!!!!

Occam

garydubh wrote: »

Some facts which Occam and Conolan need to try understand:

Ok this should be interesting.

garydubh wrote: »

you cannot achieve a unique code with just 6 characters

Totally wrong.

Take A-Z and 0-9 . A total of 36 charcters. Remove zero, one and five to prevent confusion with O, L and S. Leaves 33.

Five characters = 33*33*33*33*33 = 39 million.

So not only could we use a six character code, we could even give a unique code to every property using five characters. ( and still leave room for 35 million other points of interests, sheds etc. )

Basics eh ?

garydubh wrote: »

3. As for Loc8 being "too long" - again this is the comment of someone who has no techical understanding of this problem...

Whats is the technical problem with 5 digit codes? None !

garydubh wrote: »

As for "meaningful prefixes" - do you mean something that reflects the county or town - why?.............................. what is the point of this and how would it help

It would allow companies to easily segment parts of the country for all sorts of reasons. For example you could send a mailshot to C24 or G43. It would also allow easy definition of school catchment areas, pizza delivery areas and all sorts of other things.

garydubh wrote: »

a code would never be used without an address

Yes it would. For example if you were getting a parcel delivered why the hell would you give him an address *and* a postcode which would uniquely identify your house?

garydubh wrote: »

. The problem with any adopted postcode arising out of the non unique aspect is how to communicate the code to owners/occupiers and as I said before, there are many solutions to this but that is a matter for the detail of a tender proposal !!!

I think its a bit much to say the fundamental problem with adopting loc8 codes as a national postcode system is someone else's problem, especially when you represent a company which seems to be promoting loc8 as a national postcode system? Unless loc8 \ garydubh are no longer proposing loc8 as a national postcode system ?

garydubh wrote: »

Finally Occam has a problem with apartments in a building all having the same postcode/Loc8 Code - perhaps he should try understand that it is the building that has the code not subdivisions within it - however if the building is elongated and has multiple entrances serving different businesses/occupiers then a Loc8 Could can saisfy that requirement.

Yes I perfectly understand that it is the building that has the code.The fact that I view this as a big drawback to loc8 codes does not mean I don't understand it.

The way I see it is that loc8 can only give the code to the building, and other solutions can give codes to apartments shops etc. Therefore this is a point where other solutions are vastly superior.

garydubh wrote: »

I must say at this point - after 5 years of debate, design and discussion, you would imagine that people commenting would have at least managed to get a handle on the basics!!!!

Well I would have imagined that after 5 years of "debate, design and discussion" we would all know how many combinations can be made out of six characters.

garydubh

Occam wrote: »

Ok this should be interesting.

Totally wrong.

Take A-Z and 0-9 . A total of 36 charcters. Remove zero, one and five to prevent confusion with O, L and S. Leaves 33.

Five characters = 33*33*33*33*33 = 39 million.

So not only could we use a six character code, we could even give a unique code to every property using five characters. ( and still leave room for 35 million other points of interests, sheds etc. )

Basics eh ?.

Ah I see where you are coming from - you want to just add an ID number to each property. My intention was to suggest that a unique location or area based code cannot be created with only 6 characters. Otherwise you end up with just a sequential number which already exists in Geodirectory anyway and is no more than a database ID number. If this is your approach then that defeats the purpose of the exercise completely - This is not an exercise to generate an ID number in a rather large database!!!

Occam wrote: »

What is the technical problem with 5 digit codes? None !

-
............except that it is nothing more than an ID number which has to be added to as more preoprties/features are added.

Occam wrote: »

It would allow companies to easily segment parts of the country for all sorts of reasons. For example you could send a mailshot to C24 or G43. It would also allow easy definition of school catchment areas, pizza delivery areas and all sorts of other things.!

A database ID number would not do this ???!! Loc8 Codes have exactly as you suggest - the first 3 characters of a Loc8 Code (a zone) seems to be the segment you require - looks like you may not have read up on this - this may help: and this

Occam wrote: »

Yes it would. For example if you were getting a parcel delivered why the hell would you give him an address *and* a postcode which would uniquely identify your house?.

Ok suit yourself - into the realms of "beam-me-up-scotty" here but actually Loc8 Code will do that for you if you really want it. However, we have to make sure that if handled by a postman using his normal practice he can use it also - an ID number on its own will not be much use when he is organising his walk without adding cost and additional processes that would have to be undergone!

Occam wrote: »

I think its a bit much to say the fundamental problem with adopting loc8 codes as a national postcode system is someone else's problem, especially when you represent a company which seems to be promoting loc8 as a national postcode system? Unless loc8 \ garydubh are no longer proposing loc8 as a national postcode system ?

I get the impression that you are a guy/gal that shoots from the hip - admirable in some cases but it can be a little annoying as this is not what was said.... if Loc8 was selected as the National Postcode and therefore Loc8 Code Ltd were selected to impelement it (this will be how it will happen - perhaps you are not aware of this either) then Loc8 Code Ltd has the plans and the where-with-all to deliver a code to each property owner/occupier. The issue of delivering a Code to every property owner/occupier is an issue to be resolved as part of a National implementation programme no matter what code is selected and Loc8 Code Ltd is ready to do that when appropriate but the exact details would be retained for a tender bid. I am sorry that you are just not grapsing this. As a matter of interest - how would you plan to deliver an ID number to every property owner/occupier - how would you resolve the fact that the number on its own would not indicate which one of the 40% non unique addresses it was - just look up in the database - see a townland based address and wonder which of the many others with the same address it was? Loc8 solves this probelm in itself!

Occam wrote: »

Yes I perfectly understand that it is the building that has the code.The fact that I view this as a big drawback to loc8 codes does not mean I don't understand it.

Why is it a drawback for Loc8 Code? - it is not! - Loc8 Code can handle it as I have said multiple times in response to your queries. A simple ID number in an ever increasing database is not really the solution!

Occam wrote: »

The way I see it is that Loc8 can only give the code to the building, and other solutions can give codes to apartments shops etc. Therefore this is a point where other solutions are vastly superior..

Again I say it - a Loc8 Code can be added to any distinct entry point - if you are proposing an ID number in a database - then this already exists in the GeoDirectory and is not what this is about!

Occam wrote: »

Well I would have imagined that after 5 years of "debate, design and discussion" we would all know how many combinations can be made out of six characters.

It looks like 2 distinctly different purposes - as you have stated it, you seem to want to add an ID number to each address which already exists in the GeoDirectory and already adjudged unsuitable for the national requirement and a Loc8 Code which is a unique location identifier as recommended in the Oireachtas report on postcodes as the type of thing that should be adopted.

A unique ID number in a database is fine if everyone is to carry an ever increasing database around with them - now I understand where you are coming from and I go back to specifications - what existing problems with delivering mail, goods and services would a Database ID number as you are suggesting resolve ? None - otherwise why was the unique ID number already in the GeoDirectory unamimously adjudged unsuitable 5 years ago ?

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

garydubh

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They are not perfectly square in every case - there are character exceptions which make some boundaries sawtooth in places - hence the semi transparent border.

Hope this helps,

Delphic

Very interesting.

So every property in this country already has a unique identifier in the form of Grid coordinates - ITM and IG - geographic coordinates (Lat/Long).
A location code such as GO Code or Loc8 is also related to all mathematically, every property in the country already has a GO Code or is sitting in one if you like.

The methods that could be used to let each property owner/occupier know a Code are really straightforward. National communication campaigns where specific information has to be delivered to every household and office in the country has been done before, and can be harnessed again e.g. utility services, changeover to the euro, health information campaigns, etc. It's not rocket science.

Deciding on whether it's 3,6,7,8 or 10 characters depends on the spec for it - so it's better to start with what the purpose of the code is for and then decide on a design and number of characters to achieve that. Some who have researched this over a long number of years will tell you that you can achieve a unique code with just 6 characters - depends on your definition of unique - and what your objective is. 6 characters is more than sufficient for the majority of buildings in this country.

Loc8 decided to have 8 characters in their design to make their code self checking. Some think this is too long for memorability. It's a valid point of view particularly if it's a sequence that you don't use on a regular basis. But I'm sure some people don't have a problem remembering 8 characters.

Equally GO Code's design is a flexible one extending out to 7 characters and it is similarly capable of being applied to non properties of all types. The fact that you only have to give 6 characters for most addresses probably makes it more easily memorable.

You could add a meaningful prefix to these codes such as those used on number plates - WW, C, DL, etc. As long as you were prepared to accept a slightly longer code. WW-L6L G23 or DL-156 96RT aren't so bad and you can see where they're from.

As GO Code has over a million addresses already with accurate GO Codes Grid coordinates - so completing a national database would not take much time to do. Nor I assume adding the county prefix onto them either. It's a lot faster than relying on people to log in to do it as per Loc8.

It's buildings that get the Code. And if it's an apartment block, you can just add on the apartment number if you want to specify which one in a building e.g. GO: L26GLG-12 or LOC8: LL6-44G-CWT-12. But if it's being used with the address, it's not really necessary I would figure.

thegoth

Are loc8 codes going to be used as the national postcode system ?

conolan

garydubh wrote: »

Ah I see where you are coming from - you want to just add an ID number to each property. My intention was to suggest that a unique location or area based code cannot be created with only 6 characters. Otherwise you end up with just a sequential number which already exists in Geodirectory anyway and is no more than a database ID number. If this is your approach then that defeats the purpose of the exercise completely - This is not an exercise to generate an ID number in a rather large database!!!

-
............except that it is nothing more than an ID number which has to be added to as more preoprties/features are added.

To the uninitiated Loc8 code and gocode are ID numbers anyway, even if the technical people can interpret the meaning of the first 2-3 characters.

A 6 character code doesn't need a database, just an algorithm like loc8 and gocode.

Individual apartments and shops are not an issue, getting the user to the street entrance is enough and loc8, gocode and a 6code will all do that.

One thing that worries me about the tender (if I understand Gary correctly) is that a company with an excellent implimentation plan/ability might be awarded the contract and have a poorer (in human terms) code.
What if we wanted the gocode rolled out with loc8 superior organisation (or vice versa). NB This is not a comment on either company.

garydubh

conolan wrote: »

To the uninitiated Loc8 code and gocode are ID numbers anyway, even if the technical people can interpret the meaning of the first 2-3 characters.

A 6 character code doesn't need a database, just an algorithm like loc8 and gocode..

Loc8 Code is a geographic Location - big difference between that and an ID number !

Can you explain (I am really interested to know) how your proposed 6 character ID number (this is what you explained it to be earlier) can have an algorithm (a mathematical expression) applied to make it identify a particular location?

conolan

garydubh wrote: »

Can you explain (I am really interested to know) how your proposed 6 character ID number (this is what you explained it to be earlier) can have an algorithm (a mathematical expression) applied to make it identify a particular location?

Perhaps I should have used the term programmable, my lack of mathematical experience means that I'm incapable of turning a set of if else statements into a single line formula.

I don't know whether GPS units can have code in them to reverse a loc8/gocode into latlong, or whether it needs a single math formula.

Interesting side issue with the accuracy of loc8/gocode. Even small cottages are capable of having 3-4 codes. For example these both point to the same building Y**-43-8** / Y**-52-8**. (asterisks to protect identity) Another problem for self-administered codes. People might not follow your instructions thus 2 people create 2 different codes for the same building. Nightmare for databases held by government and companies.

In the final analysis who is going to decide which is the correct code?

conolan

Just launched iCode6. See http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056085635

paulgrogan.eu

Hi there,

I have recently purchased a Garmin 3790T and am wondering is the LOC8 software available for this model? If so, do I have to pay for it?

Any help much appreciated!

Rgds

Paul

garydubh

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

Hi there,

I have recently purchased a Garmin 3790T and am wondering is the LOC8 software available for this model? If so, do I have to pay for it?

Any help much appreciated!

Rgds

Paul

All the information you require should be here: http://www.myloc8ion.com/unlock

otherwise Loc8 support can be raised at support at loc8code.com

acrmorris

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

Hi there,

I have recently purchased a Garmin 3790T and am wondering is the LOC8 software available for this model? If so, do I have to pay for it?

Any help much appreciated!

Rgds

Paul

Yes, it is available, but be aware that you will only get it free if you have Ireland, or UK and Ireland mapping installed. If you made the misguided decision of buying the 3790T with European mapping, foolishly assuming that Loc8 would consider Ireland as part of Europe, then they will fleece you for the unlock.

I will not be using Loc8!

Update: Having whinged about Loc8 above, I can confirm that the problem seems to be with the Loc8 servers. I am not sure whether this is overcrowding or what, but I had very prompt and efficient responses from Loc8 support staff who eventually resolved the issue.

I am very pleased that this was sorted, because I genuinely believe it to be not only worthwhile, but necessary in a country hoping to develop its infrastructure to compete with other European countries all trying to pull out of recession. I cannot believe that the government has not implemented a post code system before and congrats to Loc8 for the implementation.

I know that there are other users who adopted Garmin earlier than July '10 having to pay, but I for one am now a happy customer.

CrowdedHouse

I have a 3790 with European maps, I activated the Loc8 function no problem.


Mind you I haven't used though.......

acrmorris

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

I have a 3790 with European maps, I activated the Loc8 function no problem.


Mind you I haven't used though.......

Thanks for that info CrowdedHouse - I feel a strongly worded email coming on!

garydubh

acrmorris wrote: »

Thanks for that info CrowdedHouse - I feel a strongly worded email coming on!

All Garmin Nuvi 12xx, 13xx and 14xx devices since August 2010 last ship with Loc8 Codes include FOC. If you have purchased a unit recently with Loc8 Code not included then it must be old stock. These devices are entitled to a free update - there is no question about it and just to clarify from an earlier statement all Garmin devices shipping with "European" mapping include Ireland so there is no possiblity of being charged under any circumstances whatsoever.

You can avail of your free unlock here: and if there is any difficulty (can happen if someone used your device before you purchased it as the unlock process detects when it was first used!) then just send a message to support at loc8code.com or press the "Having Trouble" button on the unlock page and the process will be done manually for you by the support team!! - this being the normal service provided.
<Mod edit:Linked email removed. Please do not post emails with a live link>

acrmorris

Garydubh, I will try what you suggest right now.

The unit was bought from new, and first used at the end of September 2010 (this info comes up on the left hand side of the screen when I try to unlock)

I will, of course, amend my previous comment if I am successful, and thanks for the help

... OK, request sent at 16:10

Bards

LOC8 Codes now at a special price of €1.99 until March 17th www.myloc8ion.com

testicle

thegoth wrote: »

Are loc8 codes going to be used as the national postcode system ?

No, which is why I wonder why anyone is bothering...

huggs2

Have the government made a decision on what system to use?

KoolKid

huggs2 wrote: »

Have the government made a decision on what system to use?

No yet AFAIK. Now this is the bit that confuses me. Loc8 have aspirations of this being our national post code, if its implemented surly its not right that you should have to pay for this to be implemented on your sat nave.

gbee

KoolKid wrote: »

No yet AFAIK.

Plus, trying to buy motor parts from the UK my Lock8 code was rejected [they only ship to post codes].

yuloni

This post has been deleted.