The Tour De France 2010 Doping Speculation Thread (may contain spoilers)

NickDrake

DODGE WROTE: This is EXACTLY the type of move Vino would do long before he was caught. I posted here before that I believe he started doping to turn himself fro a great classics rider into a GC contendor

The vino of old would always have tried for these stages.

Shane Stokes tweeted a link (which i can't find) that showed that this years climbs were markedly slower than previous years. That tells me a lot.



T-Mobile had a blood doping Program and Lib Seguros's Director was Mario Sainz and the whole team in Operation Pureto. So Vino didnt take part in any of these programs no? He rode on proven dirty teams from 1999.you think he was clean back then ?

I can't see how you can justify this.

Not to mention Astana

DCU lad

you cant...

pro cycling's a bit of a fairytale... kindof like the wwf

and it'll stay that way till lads like vino get banned from the sport for life

Inquitus

How far down the GC do you think you need to go to find the first clean rider?

NickDrake

Inquitus wrote: »

How far down the GC do you think you need to go to find the first clean rider?

The guys hanging out the back each day. They are clean as they cant afford it and by choice

DCU lad

i'd like to be optimistic and say 2nd place but Ill always wonder about the top pros especially when cheaters arent banned and lads like zabel are coaching stage winners like cavendish

DirkVoodoo

Is it really about "getting it right". I've been suspect of plenty of riders, but second guessing them and their "training methods" does little except make the tour unenjoyable. I don't think anyone has shown superhuman levels of endurance like Ricco did a few years ago (my first experience of doping in cycling).

If you don't like Vino, that's fine, it's your opinion and you are not alone in it. He cheated, he was caught and now he is back and saying he is clean. I'm not naive as you say, he may or may not be doping now, but what proof have I or anyone else? Suspicion based on him attacking in grand style and nabbing a stage today, is that what it takes these days? I would call that a witch hunt.

It's not about "I told you so" either. If it comes out that he tests positive for something, then he cheated. What's worse is he didn't learn anything after his first suspension. I can forgive a man for being seduced by the desire to win at any cost, but to be arrogant enough to think he is above the law and can do it again is unforgivable.

Until the proof, if any, outs the man, I won't be pointing any fingers.

DCU lad

you mean the wwf isnt real?!?!

why doubt a lying cheat?...
why shouldnt he be banned and cyclists whove been involved in systemic doping cheating lying and cover ups be doubted?

enjoy it for what it is , when cheaters are allowed race it undermines everyone in it

DirkVoodoo

I never said he shouldn't be banned. Under the current regulations he has already served a 2 year ban. He says he is back racing clean. Is he doping? I don't know, you guys seem to have the inside scoop. What more do you want? You may not like the guy, I can see why he is an unpopular character, but moaning after every stage that the tour is dirty and the dopers are winning is just as damaging for the sport. Much the same as diving in football is something I hate, I equally despise fans booing their own teams because of a poor performance.

Who knows who is a cheater and who isn't? That's for the testers to discover and the authorities and teams to discipline. If you mean people who have cheated in the past and are now racing again shouldn't be allowed in the peloton, then that's pretty harsh. I would say repeat offenders should be banned for life.

Look at those kids cheating during the leaving cert. Stupid, very stupid. But if one of them was caught and served the state exam ban, would you honestly refuse them the chance to sit an exam (is it 7 years?) years later if they had truly learned from it, studied hard and just wanted to move on?

I'm not trying to paint Vino as some kind of hero, but we are all human and I don't think his motivations were any more sinister than wanting to win. It's unfair and it's wrong, but I would hope it is something anyone here could relate to.

Diarmuid

Everytime the commentators say "he's back to his best" , I can't but doubt the guy.

Junior

There's a couple of things that bother me about this whole Vino thing, the first one being the amount of people supporting him and fawning about him, saying his style, panache etc are fantastic and they just gloss over the ban. They also seem to froth at the mouth about Armstrong/A.n. Other Dirty Doper and call for lifetime bans, I don't get that.

The second thing is the fact he's still not come out and clarified his position with anything amounting to an apology or admission of guilt, no maybe that's because he thought hey I'm only doing what everyone else is doing so why am I the guilty one. This leads onto the point do you want someone like that in the peleton, will they take those chances again if they think someone else is doping ?

The other thing about Vino is that it was hard to believe he was doping in the first place, he seemed like a more aggressive Moreau or Vockler, i.e. attack attack and then wouldn't be seen for a day or two and try again, whereas I would have thought if he was on EPO/Blood Doping the recovery time would be a lot shorter and he'd be up there constant like.

Certainly as Dirk has said he's served his time, he's back accept it at face value, but it does call into question the validity of just a time ban with no rehab for a convicted rider.

Diarmuid

A short bio
Vino ruined my lunch

Lumen

I've renamed the thread to be a bit more specific. Hope that's agreeable.

Not sure I can be bothered to fish out all the doping discussion from the other threads.

The Lance-specific dicussions should probably stay on the other threads, purely out of respect for The Greatest Cyclist Of All Time.

NickDrake

Diarmuid wrote: »

A short bio
Vino ruined my lunch

Love the way their was no mention of him testing positive for someone else's blood in his veins.

That was some upbringing though. God only knows what they were giving them in that training camp. Eastern block countries were well known for it. That is a fact and not just speculation.

jwshooter

I really cant see the point of these threads .

that guy is cycling to well he must be doping ,the guys on the back of the peloton must be clean .my arss .

vino was done ,severed his time and is back ,the UCI are happy so get over it .
If there is cyclists doping soon or later they will be done for it ,but as some of the doping experts on hear pointed out its almost impossible to trace some of the doping methods now .
Maybe the top 10 GC riders should be banned and top spot given to the 11th rider .

Stick to the known facts and enjoy the tour .

rash

i presume vino signed the uci\aso pledge prior to the 07 tour. does anyone know if he was made pay his 07 salary for his offence as per pledge.

Diarmuid

jwshooter wrote: »

,the UCI are happy so get over it .

I can sleep soundly now that I know that. :rolleyes:

RobFowl

rash wrote: »

i presume vino signed the uci\aso pledge prior to the 07 tour. does anyone know if he was made pay his 07 salary for his offence as per pledge.

No he didn't. The UCI said they would pursue it through the courts but have not mentioned it for a year or so now.

I can only presume the "pledge" they got riders to sign was not legally enforceable..

titan18

After today again, I'd be shocked if Vino was clean.3 days in a row with very good performances and with his history, there has to be doubts over whether he's clean

DirkVoodoo

titan18 wrote: »

After today again, I'd be shocked if Vino was clean.3 days in a row with very good performances and with his history, there has to be doubts over whether he's clean

There will always be doubts, that's what happens when you cheat and even if he is clean that is the real price that he has paid and it will follow him for the rest of his life. Every win questioned, every attack under suspicion.

DCU lad

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me

DCU lad

jwshooter wrote: »

I really cant see the point of these threads .

that guy is cycling to well he must be doping ,the guys on the back of the peloton must be clean .my arss .

vino was done ,severed his time and is back ,the UCI are happy so get over it .
If there is cyclists doping soon or later they will be done for it ,but as some of the doping experts on hear pointed out its almost impossible to trace some of the doping methods now .
Maybe the top 10 GC riders should be banned and top spot given to the 11th rider .

Stick to the known facts and enjoy the tour .

watching him destroying the peloton is a joke.

why would he have ever doped / needed to dope if he's that good clean now?

IM0

DCU lad wrote: »

watching him destroying the peloton is a joke.

why would he have ever doped / needed to dope if he's that good clean now?

the year he was caught, he had a crash in the tour and was patched up lots, after this IIRC he started doping in the tour to rescue his position, that test was the only test he failed and was thrown out of the tour, at least the guy had a good excuse unlike the scumbags of the doping world like ricco.

NickDrake

me@ucd wrote: »

the year he was caught, he had a crash in the tour and was patched up lots, after this IIRC he started doping in the tour to rescue his position, that test was the only test he failed and was thrown out of the tour, at least the guy had a good excuse unlike the scumbags of the doping world like ricco.

If you read properly you will find he tested positive in another stage on that tour also. In fact 4 times during that Tour I think

DCU lad

me@ucd wrote: »

the year he was caught, he had a crash in the tour and was patched up lots, after this IIRC he started doping in the tour to rescue his position, that test was the only test he failed and was thrown out of the tour, at least the guy had a good excuse unlike the scumbags of the doping world like ricco.

Almost every athlete from behind the iron curtain wouldve been on the gear from when they started showing any kind of serious potential. hes been on teams that've been proven filthy and implicated to numerous dopers. how can you miss whats blindingly odvious. why would he ever have stopped taking the sauce?

DirkVoodoo

I thought it was just both the samples tested positive for two types of red blood cell? Anyway, this is good enough for me, if he tests positive that's a different matter and we can analyze that when/if it happens. Using a crime he has already paid for to tarnish any clean results isn't fair but like I said, I guess that is the ultimate price for cheating in sport.

"I've served a two-year ban for the darker years of my career. The reason I don't want to elaborate (on the doping issue) is because I don't think it will do the sport of cycling any good," he added.

"I've got nothing to hide. Since I returned to cycling I've been subject to over 30 anti-doping tests, all of which have been negative. My biological passport has been stamped, and so I can compete."

He added: "(In Tenerife) I was subject to two random blood and urine tests in two weeks. What more can I do for the sport's authorities to prove I'm honest?"

DirkVoodoo

DCU lad wrote: »

Almost every athlete from behind the iron curtain wouldve been on the gear from when they started showing any kind of serious potential. hes been on teams that've been proven filthy and implicated to numerous dopers. how can you miss whats blindingly odvious. why would he ever have stopped taking the sauce?

These aren't national sports federations, I'm sure the businessmen involved in sponsoring Astana don't want the negative publicity associated with doping. If that's true, then not only is he under heavy UCI and international scrutiny, but that of his own team. Would it be possible to get away with doping, would he risk what is left of his career?

Like you said, fool me twice, I'd say they will take him to the cleaners if he is found guilty again.

Lumen

jwshooter wrote: »

I really cant see the point of these threads

The point of this thread is that people who are bothered by doping chat can enjoy the Tour threads, and those who want to chat doping can avoid the slagging for spoiling the Tour threads.

If you don't like the thread then don't read it, or at least don't complain. I'm not sure I could really have made the title any clearer.

Inquitus

Contador's devoid of any class whatsoever, a drug cheat, and an unsporting one at that.

kenmc

Inquitus wrote: »

a drug cheat, and an unsporting one at that.

Indeed? Please point me in the direction of a sporting drug cheat. I would like to see what such a monster looks like.

DirkVoodoo

Well Nick,

Andy was up front when he was attacked, surely he is on the sauce and didn't deserve to hang onto yellow anyway?

I agree with you about Gadret, unless there were some direct orders he should have waited for his team leader.

Spoiler re:stage 15!

ednwireland

Inquitus wrote: »

Contador's devoid of any class whatsoever, a drug cheat, and an unsporting one at that.

google never lies

andy schleck doping 239,000 hits
alberto contador doping 236,000 hits

kenmc

Lumen wrote: »

Here please.

Not sure it should go there, I just want to see the result of the oxymoron, it's not specific to cycling, TdeF or even a specific rider.

RobFowl

kenmc wrote: »

Indeed? Please point me in the direction of a sporting drug cheat. I would like to see what such a monster looks like.

Jerome Chiotti

Won the MTB world title in 1996 while souped to the eyeballs on EPO.
Was never caught but felt so guilty he admitted all and handed back the medals and jerseys. He also held a press conference to apologize to the "runner up" Thomas Frischknecht who was eventually awarded the win by the UCI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Chiotti

RobFowl

ednwireland wrote: »

google never lies

andy schleck doping 239,000 hits
alberto contador doping 236,000 hits

Greg Lemond doping 310,000 hits

ednwireland

RobFowl wrote: »

Greg Lemond doping 310,000 hits

i rest my case

Idleater

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

whoops

spoiler alert

<edit> spoiler spoiler</edit>

RobFowl

ednwireland wrote: »

google never lies

Couldn't resist

Sorry










Lance Armstrong doping 7,800,000 hits




I'll get my coat

DirkVoodoo

nereid wrote: »

spoiler alert

Shoot sorry!

Can you delete the quote?

Lumen

tbh I'm not fussed about spoilers on this thread and have changed the title to reflect this.

Idleater

Lumen wrote: »

tbh I'm not fussed about spoilers on this thread and have changed the title to reflect this.

Apologies, I only said it in jest.

niceonetom

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/492129/tour-s-points-leader-petacchi-investigated-for-doping.html

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/492129/tour-s-points-leader-petacchi-investigated-for-doping.html

Saw that this morning. I didn't think anyone would be using PFC after what happened to Mauro Gianetti.

NickDrake

Jesus!!! Why the hell would you use that stuff. He could end up losing a leg.

Cant be detected though

Lumen

NickDrake wrote: »

Can't be detected though

Why not? Surely just stick the blood through one of them gas chromatography-mass spectrometry type yokes.

DirkVoodoo

Hmmm:

Perfluorocarbon-based solutions. Perfluoro-carbons (PFC), which can dissolve large quantities of oxygen, are closely related to teflon and can be manufactured at low cost. Human testing has been promising and, although no studies investigating the effects of PFC on exercise capacity in healthy subjects has been published, several investigations have shown that it could improve tissue oxygenation, even at low doses. The most commonly-reported side effects were flu-like symptoms. Since these substances are chemically and metabolically inert, detection in blood and urine tests might be difficult. However, they can be measured in expired air using gas chromatography.

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Hmmm

Right, but if it can make its way across the lining of the lungs from the blood to exhaled air, then it can be tested for directly using gas chromatography on the blood itself. Or do you get scabs in the equipment?

DirkVoodoo

Lumen wrote: »

Right, but if it can make its way across the lining of the lungs from the blood to exhaled air, then it can be tested for directly using gas chromatography on the blood itself. Or do you get scabs in the equipment?

I don't know anymore about it then what I quoted, which was purely to say "it can be detected".

niceonetom

So now need to get blood, pee and breath from them?

DirkVoodoo

niceonetom wrote: »

So now need to get blood, pee and breath from them?

And their souls! Surely someone who dopes doesn't have a soul, should be easy to sort out.

concussion

Lumen wrote: »

Why not? Surely just stick the blood through one of them gas chromatography-mass spectrometry type yokes.

Pretty much. The extraction from blood is a bit tricky but it is detectable in both blood and expired air, according to this study using sample from rats exposed to perfluorooctyl bromide.

Journal of Chromatography B: Biomedical Sciences and Applications
Volume 734, Issue 2, 12 November 1999, Pages 267-276
Assay method for the perfluorooctyl bromide (perflubron) in rat blood by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry

I would wonder if standard blood collection vials would be suitable if PFC's are being tested for as it could evaporate during storage.

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

And their souls! Surely someone who dopes doesn't have a soul, should be easy to sort out.

Sounds like a good idea - surely everything they have done would be contained within??

concussion

It's gotten very quiet in here, didn't mean to kill the thread!!

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Hmmm:

Perfluorocarbon-based solutions. Perfluoro-carbons (PFC), which can dissolve large quantities of oxygen, are closely related to teflon and can be manufactured at low cost. Human testing has been promising and, although no studies investigating the effects of PFC on exercise capacity in healthy subjects has been published, several investigations have shown that it could improve tissue oxygenation, even at low doses. The most commonly-reported side effects were flu-like symptoms. Since these substances are chemically and metabolically inert, detection in blood and urine tests might be difficult. However, they can be measured in expired air using gas chromatography.

Do you have a link for this DirkVoodoo? I'm interested in the part which mentions that tests might be difficult due to it being chemically/metabolically inert.