Irish clubs v big European opposition

Andrew Flexing

Jumping the gun a little bit here...but if Bohs get past TNS would the match against Anderlecht be held in Dalymount Pk or moved to a bigger venue? I'm sure they could sell it out twice over...Same goes for Rovers if they progress to meet Juve.

stovelid

delta_bravo

Anderlecht arent exactly crowdpullers.

Balmed Out

Better off not moving it and having the stadium full, nothing like big european games. love em.

CiaranC

Doubt Bohs would get more than 7000 against Anderlecht.

Would have no interest in moving our game from Tallaght either tbh.

Het-Field

Andrew Flexing wrote: »

Jumping the gun a little bit here...but if Bohs get past TNS would the match against Anderlecht be held in Dalymount Pk or moved to a bigger venue? I'm sure they could sell it out twice over...Same goes for Rovers if they progress to meet Juve.

From a Bohemians perspective, not at all. Anderlecht would be of the same size as Aberdeen, Rosenborg, Hajuik Split, Lille, and Kaiserslautern, who all came to Dublin in the past 10 years. Tolka Park, and Dalymount Park were more then adequate for these fixtures, and looked fantastic when packed to the rafters. They wouldnt be able to sell Anderlect once over, let alone twice.

Juventus are a very different proposition. They are in the same league as Deportivo La Coruna were in 2004.. They are a top European Side, with the pedigree and the players. Landsowne Road would rock for a game like that. However, Rovers may prefer to limit the game to the pitch that they know best, even if it obliterates revenue in gate reciepts

LeeroyJones

Also Juventus would be well used to playing in front of huge crowds, a lot more so than the Rovers players so moving the (potential) game to Lansdowne could actually be counter productive

artanevilla

Anderlecht would be in Dalyer, if we get by them, it would need to be moved for regulation purposes. We have to beat TNS first though.

major bill

anderlecht are still a big name, we got 8000 for the rosenborg game 7 year ago so cant see why we wouldnt get another 8000 for this game anyway we have to beat TNS first.

btw juventus playing rovers?? yer having a laugh juve will be playing in israel fact!!!:cool:

flahavaj

Sure Juve can't even sell out their own ground on a regular basis not to mind drawing a sellout in Ireland.:pac:

CiaranC

major bill wrote: »

anderlecht are still a big name, we got 8000 for the rosenborg game 7 year ago so cant see why we wouldnt get another 8000 for this game anyway we have to beat TNS first.

btw juventus playing rovers?? yer having a laugh juve will be playing in israel fact!!!:cool:

Maybe because your crowds are now half what they were 7 years ago

me-skywalker

well the game against Red Bull Salzburg last year was pretty jam packed. I dont even support Bohs but went out to give them my support for the game would have been fantastic. And again this year ill go give em support if they do get past TNS...... But on the other hand I wouldnt be bothered giving Rovers my support if they got through hahah

stovelid

Still the small factor of both Irish teams getting through to the third round on Thursday, folks.

Especially tough if for Rovers.

me-skywalker wrote: »

well the game against Red Bull Salzburg last year was pretty jam packed. I dont even support Bohs but went out to give them my support for the game would have been fantastic. And again this year ill go give em support if they do get past TNS...... But on the other hand I wouldnt be bothered giving Rovers my support if they got through hahah

Isn't this just an unnecessarily long-winded way of saying you're a fair-weather Bohs supporter?

me-skywalker

No I support Bray Wanderers actually..... Im not an armchair supporter, I go to most home games and the odd away game.

I chose to go to the Bohs game because I wanted to help cheer them on, I wanted to hopefully see them win and progress through the stages, it would bring great money and revenue into the Irish game and maybe some recognition.

Thanks

WesternZulu

I think that its a sad fact that a meaningless friendly game against premiership team X gets more of a crowd than an important European match.

Het-Field

WesternZulu wrote: »

I think that its a sad fact that a meaningless friendly game against premiership team X gets more of a crowd than an important European match.

In fairness, it is quite obvious that the likes of Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal or Spurs would draw a big crowd if they came to Dublin. In the mid 1990s the National League was living off friendly matches against Man Utd, Leeds United, Aston Villa etc.

The likes of TNS, Sloga Jugomagnet, Akranes, Xamax, Zimbru Chisnau etc are no more exciting then a league cup game against lower first division opposition. Furthermore, while these games are important for the clubs, it is hard to classify them as "important European" ties. As a rule, the winners of these initial fixtures are simply playing for the right to be beaten by FC Stuttgart, Villereal, Sevilla, Liverpool, Tottenham, Celtic, Shaktar Donesk, Rosenborg etc in final qualifying rounds. As the National League is bereft of proper infrastructure, it is clear that the European Success enjoyed by Bohs in 2000, and Shels in 2004 was a rare treat. It is not the norm, nor should it be expected to be the norm. As a result, games against Iceland's runners up, or Armenia's champions are never likely to stir the blood. On the other hand the chance to see Rooney, Scholes, Vidic, Ferdinand etc is attractive, and will always ensure the fans attend.

TheBigLebowski

Het-Field wrote: »

In fairness, it is quite obvious that the likes of Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal or Spurs would draw a big crowd if they came to Dublin. In the mid 1990s the National League was living off friendly matches against Man Utd, Leeds United, Aston Villa etc.

The likes of TNS, Sloga Jugomagnet, Akranes, Xamax, Zimbru Chisnau etc are no more exciting then a league cup game against lower first division opposition. Furthermore, while these games are important for the clubs, it is hard to classify them as "important European" ties. As a rule, the winners of these initial fixtures are simply playing for the right to be beaten by FC Stuttgart, Villereal, Sevilla, Liverpool, Tottenham, Celtic, Shaktar Donesk, Rosenborg etc in final qualifying rounds. As the National League is bereft of proper infrastructure, it is clear that the European Success enjoyed by Bohs in 2000, and Shels in 2004 was a rare treat. It is not the norm, nor should it be expected to be the norm. As a result, games against Iceland's runners up, or Armenia's champions are never likely to stir the blood. On the other hand the chance to see Rooney, Scholes, Vidic, Ferdinand etc is attractive, and will always ensure the fans attend.

I suppose it depends what you want from a game of football. Personally, I prefer to see competitive football whether it be Mervue V Salthill or Manu V Chelsea. Two clubs on an even footing competing. Going to see a top premiership team versus Athlone Town is non competitive and is simply a big 'event' which some people like to be part of. But in footballing terms it's a non-event.

People I know who support top premiership clubs have more interest in the big event surrounding the game than the football on the pitch. These are the same people that lap up these friendly events. Each to their own I suppose.

dreamers75

Het-Field wrote: »

Zimbru Chisnau

We get tru 3 rounds in Europe twice in succession and thats the team you pick.

stovelid

me-skywalker wrote: »

No I support Bray Wanderers actually..... Im not an armchair supporter, I go to most home games and the odd away game.

Apologies. Was only teasing.

Rigor Mortis

dreamers75 wrote: »

We get tru 3 rounds in Europe twice in succession and thats the team you pick.

That one is gonna stick for a long time;)

Het-Field

dreamers75 wrote: »

We get tru 3 rounds in Europe twice in succession and thats the team you pick.

Well who am I supposed to pick ? Rhyl ? Gretna ? Olimpic Riga ? Valetta FC ?. Whatever way you look at it, the National League is very limited when it comes to identifying recent European Successes.

The biggest victories and results came at a time when the National League was setting itself on course for the financial abyss. I know, as a Shelbourne fan, I would easily trade the Hajiuk Split win and the Steua Bucarest and Deportivo La Coruna draws, for a continuing presence in the Premier Division. European Success was not nearly as expensive in the early part of the noughties when Shelbourne took out Sloga before drawing with Rosenborg (who were a highly respected team in Europe at the time). Equally, Bohs took a wonderful scalp of Aberdeen and drew with Bundesliga opposition without spending over the top.

Beating teams from Wales, Malta, and former soviet states which suffered by virtue of a lack of poor infrastructure is the least we can expect from a league which has been lucky enough to have produced players like Keith Fahey, Stephen Hunt, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Jason Byrne, Glenn Crowe etc. Equally, players like Paul Osam, Pat Scully, Paul Doolin, Brian Mooney deserved far more then they got from the league.

I dont blame the teams, I blame the organisers. We should be seeking to improve our lot in a sensible and organised way. Spending money in a manner similar to Leeds United was not the way to achieve it. We should be looking outside ourselves, and while not fooling ourselves that we could beat Inter Milan, I think we should be looking to achieve more then victories over small fry opponents

Pal

Juventus had a whopping 22,000 average home attendance last season.

Thats less than Fulham or Hull FFS !

Guess what. Its smaller than Anderlecht too.

Juventus is a big draw my ar5e.

Pal

if Norway and Cyprus can get into the CL group stage, then surely to God so can we !

Pinturicchio

Pal wrote: »

Juventus is a big draw my ar5e.

Serie A: 27

1905, 1925–26,[67] 1930–31, 1931–32, 1932–33, 1933–34, 1934–35, 1949–50, 1951–52, 1957–58, 1959–60, 1960–61, 1966–67; 1971–72, 1972–73, 1974–75, 1976–77, 1977–78, 1980–81, 1981–82, 1983–84, 1985–86, 1994–95, 1996–97, 1997–98, 2001–02, 2002–03

Runners-up (20): 1903; 1904; 1906; 1937–38; 1945–46; 1946–47; 1952–53; 1953–54; 1962–63; 1973–74; 1975–76; 1979–80; 1982–83; 1986–87; 1991–92; 1993–94; 1995–96; 1999–00; 2000–01; 2008–09

Coppa Italia: 9

1937–38, 1941–42, 1958–59, 1959–60, 1964–65, 1978–79, 1982–83, 1989–90, 1994–95

Runners-up (4): 1972–73; 1991–92; 2001–02; 2003–04

Supercoppa Italiana: 4

1995, 1997, 2002, 2003

Runners-up (3): 1990; 1998; 2005

Serie B: 1

2006–07


European titles

UEFA Champions League (former European Cup): 2

1984–85, 1995–96

Runners-up (5): 1972–73; 1982–83; 1996–97; 1997–98; 2002–03

UEFA Cup Winners' Cup: 1

1983–84

UEFA Cup: 3

1976–77, 1989–90, 1992–93

Runner-up (1): 1994–95

UEFA Intertoto Cup: 1

1999

UEFA Super Cup: 2

1984, 1996


World-wide titles

Intercontinental Cup: 2

1985, 1996

Runners-up (1): 1973



In 1985, Juventus, the only team in the world to have won all official international cups and championships, became the first club in the history of European football to have won all three major UEFA club competitions.

Gavin "shels"

CiaranC wrote: »

Doubt Bohs would get more than 7000 against Anderlecht.

Would have no interest in moving our game from Tallaght either tbh.

7000? Connaught Stand wouldn't be able to open afaik.

WesternZulu wrote: »

I think that its a sad fact that a meaningless friendly game against premiership team X gets more of a crowd than an important European match.

Tis, some bloke on fool.ie posted that there was like 8,000 at Munster XI -v- Sunderland and the same night Bohs were playing in the Champions League and there was less than half that. Only in Ireland, only in Ireland.

carlop

Pal wrote: »

Juventus had a whopping 22,000 average home attendance last season.

Thats less than Fulham or Hull FFS !

Guess what. Its smaller than Anderlecht too.

Juventus is a big draw my ar5e.

They may not get huge attendances, but they are the best supported team in Italy. According to Wiki, 32.5% of Italian football fans support Juve. Think how many Italians are over in Dublin, consider how many probably follow football and then divide that figure by three. I would say that given the added novelty of seeing the team you support in a foreign country, a large majority of these people would go provided tickets weren't extortionate.

This will already be quite a high number, and so far we've only taken into account the Juventus fans living in Dublin. Throw in the hardy ultras who will travel over. Then throw in Irish people who support Juventus. Add in Irish people who generally follow Serie A.

I would estimate that the number is already 10,000, and we haven't even started to consider Rovers fans (I wouldn't have the best idea as to a figure here but I'd say at least 10,000 people would say they support Shamrock Rovers, and would make an extra effort to go to this match).

Throw in the casual football fan who is not a member of any of the above-mentioned interested parties and I think we can safely say Juventus are a big draw.

eightyfish

WesternZulu wrote: »

I think that its a sad fact that a meaningless friendly game against premiership team X gets more of a crowd than an important European match.

I was at the TNS game. Jodi stand full, great atmosphere despite ****e weather. Couldn't have been bothered with the Wolves game on Saturday where we played an unrecognisable team and lost 3-0. More people at that game, however, the vast majority supporting Wolves. Don't want to get into a barstoolers vs LOI fans debate but it's a bit depressing.

OP- Dalymount is our home. No way should it be moved. If we have any chance of going forward, we have more of a chance in Dalymount- and I would rather watch the match there than anywhere else.

Pal

carlop wrote: »

I think we can safely say Juventus are a big draw.

We will see.

Or in fact we probably won't as Rovers don't look like going through.

But if they do, I predict 6,000 at Tallaght since that's all it holds.

Regarding the impressive list of trophies Juventus have won, its a shame more Italians don't appreciate it and bother going to their games.

Het-Field

In fairness, Italian ticket prices are crazy. Yes, you can get your cheap seats, however, the best seats can cost 250Euro a pop, and as a result they are never snapped up. Inter and AC both are guilty of this pricing structure, as are Juventus. Games can look empty, however, it is simply based on the inability of the Italian Fanbase to meet these criminal prices.

Irish people dont attend LOI football because the standard has diminished beyond belief in the past 5 years, and the owners of the respective clubs have taken the loyal and long-suffering fans for a ride.

Pinturicchio

Pal wrote: »

Regarding the impressive list of trophies Juventus have won, its a shame more Italians don't appreciate it and bother going to their games.

A couple of things.

1. For the last couple of seasons, Juve have been playing at the Stadio Olimpico di Torino because the Delle Alpi is being rebuilt. The Olimpico only holds 27,000.

2. Juve are in the unusual position of having more fans in the south of Italy than in Turin, where they're from.

carlop

Het-Field wrote: »

In fairness, Italian ticket prices are crazy. Yes, you can get your cheap seats, however, the best seats can cost 250Euro a pop, and as a result they are never snapped up. Inter and AC both are guilty of this pricing structure, as are Juventus. Games can look empty, however, it is simply based on the inability of the Italian Fanbase to meet these criminal prices.

Irish people dont attend LOI football because the standard has diminished beyond belief in the past 5 years, and the owners of the respective clubs have taken the loyal and long-suffering fans for a ride.

To be fair, I went to Inter - Roma two seasons ago when it was effectively a title decider and I got tickets for 15e. I bought them on the day too, so it's not as if all the cheap seats are being snapped up and only the expensive ones left behind.

Italian attendances are poor compared to what they should be, though I believe they marginally improved last season.

DerekDGoldfish

carlop wrote: »

To be fair, I went to Inter - Roma two seasons ago when it was effectively a title decider and I got tickets for 15e. I bought them on the day too, so it's not as if all the cheap seats are being snapped up and only the expensive ones left behind.

Italian attendances are poor compared to what they should be, though I believe they marginally improved last season.

Last seaons attendances were the highest since the 93-94 season adveraging about 27,000 a game as far as I can recall

carlop

DerekDGoldfish wrote: »

Last seaons attendances were the highest since the 93-94 season adveraging about 27,000 a game as far as I can recall

Improved more than I thought then!

Pinturicchio

carlop wrote: »

Italian attendances are poor compared to what they should be

That's because the facilities are so poor.

carlop

Pinturicchio wrote: »

That's because the facilities are so poor.

It's certainly a major factor, but it's not the only one I don't think.

stovelid

Juve have seen better times, but the fact remains that they are a huge name. One of the greats of the game; end of.

Bohs can take Anderlecht with a bit of luck, I feel, and they should progress pass TNS, whereas we have to beat Bnei Yehuda away - and in that heat - before even considering Juve.

If we did meet Juve, I would like to think that we could forego the revenue of a game in a bigger venue to preserve the special idea of playing in Tallaght - the vibe and the occasion which in the long run would be far more beneficial in terms of building the club in Tallaght than making a quick buck from Ole-Oles, most of whom won't come back.

Anyway, the first priority has to be a league-winning team and Europe is a bonus.

bohsman

Het-Field wrote: »

Irish people dont attend LOI football because the standard has diminished beyond belief in the past 5 years

Completely disagree with that statement. European results has been steadily improving over the last few years aswell.

eightyfish

stovelid wrote: »

If we did meet Juve, I would like to think that we could forego the revenue of a game in a bigger venue to preserve the special idea of playing in Tallaght - the vibe and the occasion which in the long run would be far more beneficial in terms of building the club in Tallaght than making a quick buck from Ole-Oles, most of whom won't come back.

Yeah definitely. And fans first too. Mind you I don't know how you'd do that outside of the members - maybe make it a rule that you have to bring a Rovers scarf to buy a ticket? :rolleyes:

stovelid

eightyfish wrote: »

Yeah definitely. And fans first too. Mind you I don't know how you'd do that outside of the members - maybe make it a rule that you have to bring a Rovers scarf to buy a ticket? :rolleyes:

The stadium only holds 6000.

Hypothetically, it would be easy to ensure that the majority of tickets were allocated to member and season ticket holders, as was the case with Madrid. That way there is more of a chance of a spare ticket going to people who maybe have been interested in Rovers but haven't made the leap.

As that capacity was close to double the normal on that occasion, however, the tickets for this one would go very quickly.

Het-Field

bohsman wrote: »

Completely disagree with that statement. European results has been steadily improving over the last few years aswell.

The LOI was at its best between 1999-2007. The players were good, it was producing internationals, and it was developing players like Keith Fahey and Stephen Hunt, and Wes Houlihan who were going to take England by storm. Equally, it was attracting international players like Joseph Ndo and Alan Moore, who could have played at lower league British teams, or could have remained in the iddle east. Furthermore, the results garnered by the likes of Shelbourne, Bohemians, and even UCD in Europe were somthing to marvel at.

Currently, the league is a financial mess. It is living off European wins against small fry opposition from underdeveloped leagues (it would be shameful if Bohs couldnt take out TNS, considering the fact that the Welsh league is the vestigial joke of Club football). The players produced are not nearly of the quality they once were. The crazy money which was doused around the league in the mid noughties has crippled clubs, and there are one or two clubs (such as Bohemians) whose financial affairs are recognised as such that the fate which befell Shelbournce, Cork City, and Derry City, should potentially have happened to them.

Wins over Rhyl and draws with Red Bull Salzburg are not amazing results to be marvelled at. I agree that it is a hell of a lot better then the 1990sm but it is still a long way from where we should be.

frantic190

Gavin shels wrote: »

7000? Connaught Stand wouldn't be able to open afaik.

Its been open for Rovers and Linfield, why wouldn't it? Its been repaired to the extent about 1100-1200 seats are available, probably more now. The capacity of the ground is back up to in and around 8000 I think.

stovelid

Het-Field wrote: »

Equally, it was attracting international players like Joseph Ndo and Alan Moore,

.

Het-Field wrote: »

Currently, the league is a financial mess. .

bohsman

Ndo is still here, Barrett is the new Moore - big reputation wanting big money for feck all effort. We dont have the best most indepth squad we've ever had but Id say its our strongest ever starting eleven, Rovers are very strong aswell.
The big thing about the Rhyll result is that we hammered them scoring 9 goals. TNS are a class apart in the Welsh league but we really should finish the job tonight. Pats had some great results in the last few years aswell, Fingals result is one of the best for Irish clubs in the last 10 years aswell.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

I'm not even a Bohs fan, but I'll be pissed if they don't go through tonight.

dfx-

Het-Field wrote: »

Well who am I supposed to pick ? Rhyl ? Gretna ? Olimpic Riga ? Valetta FC ?. Whatever way you look at it, the National League is very limited when it comes to identifying recent European Successes.

I don't see your problem. National League sides have beaten those sides they should be beating and some they shouldn't. We should be beating teams regularly from the likes of Wales. You don't have to go far back to remember the Carmarthen Town and Longford incident.

The biggest victories and scalps for the National League are and should be the Scandinavian sides, in particular Swedish sides. Malmo, Gothenburg, Elfsborg, Djurgardens...little steps. But European little steps. Not Juventus, Lille, Depor or Anderlecht. Seeding into second rounds..

That is more than high enough right now.

djpbarry

Pal wrote: »

if Norway and Cyprus can get into the CL group stage, then surely to God so can we !

One word: attendances.

djpbarry

Het-Field wrote: »

Irish people dont attend LOI football because the standard has diminished beyond belief in the past 5 years...

Oh is that why we were getting those massive crowds 5 years ago?

Het-Field wrote: »

The LOI was at its best between 1999-2007.

It certainly wasn’t reflected in terms of European results – it’s only since 04/05 that Irish sides have been consistently winning European ties. Now, you can dismiss these results against the likes of Valetta, Grevenmacher, Skonto and Apollon Limassol (or whoever else) as meaningless, but it’s not all that long ago that our league champions lost on a cricket score to a side from Moldova. You say the league is a long way from where it should be (where’s that?), but I consider beating so-called ‘small fry opposition from underdeveloped leagues’ as steady progress.

Het-Field wrote: »

Equally, it was attracting splurging money it didn’t have on international players like Joseph Ndo and Alan Moore...

FYP.

Het-Field wrote: »

Furthermore, the results garnered by the likes of Shelbourne, Bohemians, and even UCD in Europe were somthing to marvel at.

No results to ‘marvel’ at over the last couple of years, no? Krylya Sovetov maybe?

GLaDOS

Het-Field wrote: »

but it is still a long way from where we should be.

Where exactly should we be? We've a small population, with less than optimum interest in domestic football, competing with GAA and Rugby for young athletes.

We are where we are, there's no "should" about it.

eightyfish

ScienceNerd wrote: »

We are where we are, there's no "should" about it.

If people went to see a game every so often maybe we'd have a bit more cash to play with and a slightly better standard attracting more fans etc etc. No chance of getting back to the huge crowds for domestic games before Match Of The Day hit our screens.

ntlbell

eightyfish wrote: »

If people went to see a game every so often maybe we'd have a bit more cash to play with and a slightly better standard attracting more fans etc etc. No chance of getting back to the huge crowds for domestic games before Match Of The Day hit our screens.

What creative initiatives have your or anyones local clubs come up with in the last few years to try an attract new supporters?

Personally I see very little from any of the clubs.

eightyfish

ntlbell wrote: »

What creative initiatives have your or anyones local clubs come up with in the last few years to try an attract new supporters?

What do you think the clubs should be doing? I've been a Bohs fan for years - my own contribution the last two seasons has been asking friends to come along to the games. Everyone enjoyed themselves, some enough to come again. And again.