How forgiving are you

CDfm

I read this in this mornings news - could I do this probably not. It takes a strenght of character I don't have.

<H1>Garda with just months to live accepts apology from doctor

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  By Ralph Riegel

Saturday July 17 2010

THE senior garda who has been given just months to live after a GP's catastrophic medical blunder has revealed he has accepted an apology from the now suspended medic.
Supt Martin Dorney (50) said he accepted the apology of his GP, Dr Pat Lee, with whom he had been friendly with for more than a decade.
"Dr Lee has apologised to me personally and I have accepted his apology," he said.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-with-just-months-to-live-accepts-apology-from-doctor-2262691.html

</H1>Now I have no probs with lots of stuff and have probably been too laid back in the past and will tolerate a lot.

I suspect Supt Dorney is doing this for his family and putting their needs first.

So how forgiving are you.

LilMsss

I can't say I'd be too forgiving. Misdiagnosis and medical incompetence are more common than you'd think. A similar thing happened to my Dad. He had been sick for a while with lung problems and pneumonia and had scans at a well-known Dublin hospital ... they diagnosed him with Stage 4 cancer ... only didn't bother telling him for a year, and only then because his GP chased up!!! :mad:

They changed consultants and told him he had to come in immediately, but at that stage they couldn't/wouldn't do anything. My Dad was really pissed for a while, and did consider taking it further but decided he had more important things to concentrate on.

I hold grudges though, and have no confidence in the healthcare system in this country!

Nervous Wreck

I'd probably just seek vengeance.

stupidusername

That article doesn't actually make the case too clear.

My mam died a year ago from bladder cancer. She'd had it for two years. I don't know how long she'd had symptoms for before she was finally diagnosed with cancer, but she'd been going to the doctor for months with pains and problems. I forget the actual number but she was given something like 6 antibiotics as the doctor was treating her for kidney infections. I don't get how she didn't question herself why prescribing anti biotics wasn't working.

And it wasn't the doctor that suggested testing for anything else.

Mam was so bad by Christmas that year, when she started passing blood she rang the CareDoc people. The doctor on the phone told her that she couldn't bleed to death too soon bleeding from 'there'.Dad then insisted she went to A&E. That's when she was diagnosed.

The day mam died, a few of us were talking to one of the home help nurses about the fact that it had been missed for so long, and she told us that it might've been missed as this type of cancer occurs most often in men over 50 or something like that. She also told us that had she been diagnosed even a couple of months earlier she'd probably still be alive.

She was 47.

I'm not at all forgiving over things like this. I understand that everyone makes mistakes, and you have to allow for this even with MDs, but to fob her off like this for so long, so that it actually contributed to whether or not someone lives is just crazy.

And to add to that, in terms of doctors and how utterly useless they are, when I spoke to my doctor about my chances of getting this cancer (as a person might be concerned with), he laughed at me. Apparently I should've known that if I'm not a smoker there's practically zero chance of me getting it.

I have very little faith in the competence of doctors. And I would have no respect for any of them unless they give me a reason to.

metrovelvet

Forgiveness is a process. I think if you dont forgive you end up destroying yourself.

However, if someone i loved were a victim of malpractice, I dont think I could. I was recently burgled. I can forgive that. I had a friend rip me off for over a year, I can lose the grudge but have no inspiration to resume the friendship. But there's a lot ive been through that i find very difficult to fully forgive. In the end it makes no difference to the wrong doer whether s/he is forgiven and all the difference to the grudge bearer.

Handsome Bob

Like stupidusername, I know all too well about the failures of the medical community, and it has caused me to lose a loved one unfortunately. I found it insanely difficult to forgive but my hatred and anger took its toll on me. I had to learn to let go of the pain, and I had to forgive in order to do that. I'll never forget that's for sure, one thing I've learned is never take one single doctor's opinion as gospel, whether he's giving you good or bad news is irrelevant. If you feel there is something seriously wrong then get more opinions.

As for more trivial things such as backstabbing and betrayal, I can forgive. But my estimation and trust of the person goes down.

SugarHigh

I would never hold a grudge against a Doctor unless he broke protocol and did something blatantly wrong. You can't expect them to be infallible and resources are limited so people will go misdiagnosed. It's not an easy job and just because you don't diagnose a disease it doesn't make you incompetent.

stupidusername

SugarHigh wrote: »

I would never hold a grudge against a Doctor unless he broke protocol and did something blatantly wrong. You can't expect them to be infallible and resources are limited so people will go misdiagnosed. It's not an easy job and just because you don't diagnose a disease it doesn't make you incompetent.

So if it happened to you, you wouldn't be angry or sad? If you were told tomorrow that you were going to die within two months because your doctor repeatedly misdiagnosed you, you wouldn't feel it was their fault???

SugarHigh

stupidusername wrote: »

So if it happened to you, you wouldn't be angry or sad? If you were told tomorrow that you were going to die within two months because your doctor repeatedly misdiagnosed you, you wouldn't feel it was their fault???

No not at all. If it wasn't for medical science most of use would have died long before we do now. There are no certainest in medical science the best you can do is have en educated guess based on all the info they have. Everyday of your life you benifit from science so you can't turn against it the few times it doesn't deliver.

Medical Science is improving all the time and misdiagnoses are actually part of the process of moving it forward.

Handsome Bob

SugarHigh wrote: »

No not at all. If it wasn't for medical science most of use would have died long before we do now. There are no certainest in medical science the best you can do is have en educated guess based on all the info they have. Everyday of your life you benifit from science so you can't turn against it the few times it doesn't deliver.

Nice, cold answer. Here's hoping that if it ever happens to you that you'll be true to your word. Not that I'd wish it on anyone of course.

Medical Science is improving all the time and misdiagnoses are actually part of the process of moving it forward.

Part of the process? People needlessly dying and it's part of the process? People are not guinea pigs, people should not have to needlessly die in order to improve how things are down.

stupidusername

SugarHigh wrote: »

No not at all.

Well, I do think you're entitled to your opinion, but I can't help feel angry at this attitude. We rely on doctors to know more about diseases etc than we do, hence why we pay them so much, and to say it's acceptable for them to get it so wrong is insulting to people that have lost someone because of this.

I know in my situation where I put the blame. It's not misdirected either. I do blame my mam for smoking for thirty years too.

If the doctor got it wrong once twice three times maybe, then it'd be ok because they were all within a few weeks, but it was at least 6 times! That is just pure neglect of duties.

And I do know what you're saying about the advances in health and science meaning we live longer and better etc. But my point is doctors are there to do a job! If they fail to do it to a reasonable standard they shouldn't be allowed to practice. Simple. It's the same for a lot of different industries, lack of competence isn't acceptable, and so why should it be when it comes to something as big as this.

SugarHigh

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Nice, cold answer. Here's hoping that if it ever happens to you that you'll be true to your word. Not that I'd wish it on anyone of course.



Part of the process? People needlessly dying and it's part of the process? People are not guinea pigs, people should not have to needlessly die in order to improve how things are down.

People needlessly dying and it's part of the process?

What do you mean by needlessly dying? Do you really think it's possible to have 100% success rate of diagnosing cancer with the technology and resources currently available.

People are not guinea pigs

Yes they are, you can never be 100% sure of a diagnosis just the same way you can never be 100% sure of how they will react to treatment. Every case gets documented and can be learned from, the the techniques used today will eventually look outdated but they are the best we currently have.

SugarHigh

stupidusername wrote: »

Well, I do think you're entitled to your opinion, but I can't help feel angry at this attitude. We rely on doctors to know more about diseases etc than we do, hence why we pay them so much, and to say it's acceptable for them to get it so wrong is insulting to people that have lost someone because of this.

I know in my situation where I put the blame. It's not misdirected either. I do blame my mam for smoking for thirty years too.

If the doctor got it wrong once twice three times maybe, then it'd be ok because they were all within a few weeks, but it was at least 6 times! That is just pure neglect of duties.

And I do know what you're saying about the advances in health and science meaning we live longer and better etc. But my point is doctors are there to do a job! If they fail to do it to a reasonable standard they shouldn't be allowed to practice. Simple. It's the same for a lot of different industries, lack of competence isn't acceptable, and so why should it be when it comes to something as big as this.

We rely on doctors to know more about diseases etc than we do, hence why we pay them so much

And they do know more about diseases than we do and their knowledge improves everyday. If it wasn't for medical science you wouldn't even know what cancer is.

If the doctor got it wrong once twice three times maybe, then it'd be ok because they were all within a few weeks, but it was at least 6 times! That is just pure neglect of duties.

How do you know? Do you know the usual percentage of correct diagnoses to compare it against. Did he break any protocol or did he simply do his best with what was available and in this instance it wasn't enough.

If they fail to do it to a reasonable standard they shouldn't be allowed

Of couse but this should be decided by their superiors and not by you or the media who don't understand medical science.


I understand you are upset and it is obviously clouding your judgment. You're anger shouldn't be direct at medical science because without it then no one would survive cancer. I'm sorry that there is nowhere to vent you anger towards because it was just part of life and one of those things you have to accept.

SugarHigh

I think people should think about the negative effects of telling all these horror stories about hospitals. I can imagine their are a lot of old people who are constantly hearing these stories and are no terrified of going to the doctor and will instead ry to self medicate or just ignore any problems they are having.

Their isn't always someone to blame when someone dies young and it isn't a sign of incompetence.

EDIT: I've also heard stories of treatments being made unavailable in America because they carry such a high risk of the hospital being sued even in situations where they are the best option.

CDfm

I didn't mean this to be a pick on doctors thread - that was the news item. A good doctor ,or so it is said, is the one with the fewest mistakes.

It could be a dangerous driver or someone with drugs at a party.

I admire Supt Dorney here.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I didn't mean this to be a pick on doctors thread - that was the news item. A good doctor ,or so it is said, is the one with the fewest mistakes.

It could be a dangerous driver or someone with drugs at a party.

I admire Supt Dorney here.

In the little time he has left he has the wisdom to know he cannot change what happenned and he will hardly waste it begrudging the doctors human fallibility.

This is the gift of illness.

Tick tock tick tock everybody.

Wolfe Tone

stupidusername wrote: »

So if it happened to you, you wouldn't be angry or sad? If you were told tomorrow that you were going to die within two months because your doctor repeatedly misdiagnosed you, you wouldn't feel it was their fault???

I often wonder how the Doctor himself feels in a case like that.....

CDfm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

.

As for more trivial things such as backstabbing and betrayal, I can forgive. But my estimation and trust of the person goes down.

+1

CDfm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I often wonder how the Doctor himself feels in a case like that.....

I imagine quiet awful as he missed something so important. How manytimes have any of us scan read something and missed the small print.And, they were friends.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I imagine quiet awful as he missed something so important. How manytimes have any of us scan read something and missed the small print.And, they were friends.

This is a huge part of it, being able to recognise your own fallibility.

However, in the case of medical malpractise, there is such an assembly of an inept system at work that it seems unforgiveable. My son was referred to a surgeon who is now up for medical negligence. We saw him once and didn't go back, later to discover a child died under his care. Withiut going into too many details, yes it was a case of human fallibility, but also a case of a system that doesn't have an architecture in place to check and balance human error. And that is unforgiveable. And that is how people die.

Latchy

All to often in the news we hear of somebody dying needlesly because of medical negligence and the baby P case springs to mind in that both the social services and the last doctor to examine the baby failed him big time .

I dont think I could find it in me to forgive them ,the anger pain and grief would be to much to bare although we know that in this case it was the parents and lodger themselfs who infilcted the horrific injurys resulting in his death and imo , byond any forgivness .

It was intresting to see the policeman shot in the face by Raol Moat say he wished no malice aganist Moat ( before he himself was shot dead ) and just wanted to get on with his life as a policeman .So I guess in some cases it is easier to forgive as in the former but not so sure about the latter

Wibbs

SugarHigh wrote: »

I would never hold a grudge against a Doctor unless he broke protocol and did something blatantly wrong. You can't expect them to be infallible and resources are limited so people will go misdiagnosed. It's not an easy job and just because you don't diagnose a disease it doesn't make you incompetent.

I would agree with this. Sometimes shít just happens even with the best will in the world and in medicine we will never get 100% success. Even in 500 years time you will still have people dying for want of better knowledge or the shít just happens rule I reckon.

Having said that, like any job you will get some better than others. Even with the best checks and balances you will still get the odd moron. The medical profession by and large is very good at weeding out the obvious numpties, the not so obvious ones well.. It's also a growing science. People outside of it can fall into this notion of all powerful doctors and some doctors especially in the past liked to keep this notion going from hubris, but the fact is while we know a fair bit there is a helluva lot we dont know. The major killers like cancer and cardiovascular disease we have much success in of late, but we're mostly better off thinking of prevention rather than cure. We're all living longer now, not so much because of doctors per se, but mostly because of antibiotics, immunisation, better nutrition and clean water.

Anyhoo... As for forgiveness it varies with me. Actually it doesn't. I dont readily forgive. I readily forget though. Screw me over once too often and that's it, game over. I don't go back there. You're dead to me.

Revenge? Not so much. Though in keeping with the medical theme above, a decade ago I watched my father die and die hard before he needed to and in a manner he didnt need to while under frankly amateur at the time medical care in this country. A serious breakdown in basic medical procedure and cop on. A process that affected me and my family in ways it didnt have to and did so for months. A court case and subsequent "apology" was involved. In the months following that event, if I had been driving and had seen the consultant(and one of the nurses) involved walking across the road? I am quite sure I would have mowed him down, without a second glance, save to throw the car into reverse to make sure at least that job was done correctly. No sleep would have been lost on my part either. Obviously with the passage of time, I wouldnt think like that now, but at the time yes.

I would admire the chap in the OP's post for feeling like that and having the wherewithal to do so. I fear I would not be so kind in my responses in his situation.

metrovelvet

I'm sorry but there is a system of ah sure negligence that is beyond human err and is plain old arrogance.

I mean seriously, taking out the wrong organ because the surgeon read the scan backwards? Shouldnt there be two or three people looking at it? How about checking the notes of a hemophiliac before taking a scalpal? Come on. Sorry, no. They deserve every law suit they get.

CDfm

Ah -but the OP is about how forgiving you can be -if it was about medical negligence -I would have asked that question.

I have a recurring back injury as a result of some fecker from Limerick crashing into me years back. Last winter I would happily have worked him over with a baseball bat to experience the pain I had. Compo didn't do it. Luckily my GP was to hand

I also dealt with some court cases a few years back & though I was in the right & they took their toll. Life is not always fair.

Do I revisit these things -no. Do I trust the people involved.No.

I have no problem about people suing for malpractice etc - but this was an exceptional case of public forgiveness as in .

Portia:
You stand within his danger, do you not?
Antonio:
Ay, so he says.
Portia:
Do you confess the bond?
Antonio:
I do.
Portia:
Then must the Jew be merciful.
Shylock:
On what compulsion must I? tell me that.
Portia:
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.

The Merchant Of Venice Act 4, scene 1, 180–187

stupidusername

SugarHigh I'm not going to keep arguing with you over this. If this happened to you, trust me, you'd feel different. But I wouldn't want anyone to go through the horrible two years my mam and us went through.

Sorry to the other posters if I've dragged the thread off topic.

Nervous Wreck

Wibbs wrote: »

Anyhoo... As for forgiveness it varies with me. Actually it doesn't. I dont readily forgive. I readily forget though. Screw me over once too often and that's it, game over. I don't go back there. You're dead to me.

Gotta say, I'm the same. I can forgive the little stuff and move on but repeated instances will result in my back being turned. Sometimes though, all it takes is one bad turn and then, to me, you never existed. Even when I forgive though, I don't forget. It all gets stored upstairs in a section of my brain marked "for future reference". As for revenge, I'd love to say I exact it but most of the time just cutting someone out of your life is revenge enough..... That said, I did once get an ex-girlfriend fired from her job for being a little shít to me.

CDfm

stupidusername wrote: »

SugarHigh I'm not going to keep arguing with you over this. If this happened to you, trust me, you'd feel different. But I wouldn't want anyone to go through the horrible two years my mam and us went through.

Sorry to the other posters if I've dragged the thread off topic.

Thanks for replying.You were on topic as was Wibbs as it happened to you. I really posted to refine the topic and keep it away from being solely about medical malpractice but from peoples own experience..

LilMsss

stupidusername wrote: »

SugarHigh I'm not going to keep arguing with you over this. If this happened to you, trust me, you'd feel different. But I wouldn't want anyone to go through the horrible two years my mam and us went through.



Sorry to the other posters if I've dragged the thread off topic.

I totally agree, if and when you are unlucky enough for it to happen to a family member, the concept of forgiveness goes out the window. My Dad died a year after he was finally told about his diagnosis, and it was a long, difficult year for everyone involved.

In the end, he decided his delayed diagnosis wasn't worth taking further as he wanted (and needed) to concentrate on his family and the time he had left. My Dad's one year anniversary was this month, so it's still raw for me, but I would have very little faith in some quarters of the medical profession.

Another issue we had that we did take further was the cancer nurse that was allocated to us the night my Dad died (he died at home) was incompetent and ill-equiped for the nature of the job she was employed to do. She totally fell apart, missed all of the obvious signs that death was imminent meaning that we were only in the room with him for the last five minutes, was incapable of administering pain medication when required, and generally just got in the way. We put in an official complaint about her.

While I admit that there are people who are both good and bad at the job that they do, and indeed others who are indifferent, the fact remains that mistakes in most professions outside of healthcare are not issues of life and death.

Quite simply, the stakes are higher when it comes to people's lives, so forgiveness of incompetence isn't nearly as easy.

CDfm

It is very difficult to be totally objective with bereavement. A close friend of mine lost her father recently and it was better that he remained in hospital at the end.

You all have my sympathy especially where they were preventable.

A friend of mine died recently -my age and occupation and I could see it both from his fathers and sons grief. Just take a look at these statistics from the USA and the top 3 for young men are accidents, homicide and suicide.

http://www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_Young_Adults.html

stupidusername

LilMsss wrote: »

Another issue we had that we did take further was the cancer nurse that was allocated to us the night my Dad died (he died at home) was incompetent and ill-equiped for the nature of the job she was employed to do. She totally fell apart, missed all of the obvious signs that death was imminent meaning that we were only in the room with him for the last five minutes, was incapable of administering pain medication when required, and generally just got in the way. We put in an official complaint about her.

That is awful. For me it was harsh hearing what to expect as time went on, but obviously it was better to know than not know.

Luckily we had (mostly) really great nurses that would come round any time day or night, and never got impatient, and knew what they were talking about.

Incapable of administering pain medication? I'm actually almost in tears over thinking about that happening. For a person at that stage, that is all you can do for them, and to think she couldn't even do this, that is just terrible. It must be really hard knowing that more should've been done. They're there to prepare the family, help, and make the person as comfortable as possible, and she didn't do any of that?? My mam was so heavily dosed she was barely conscious, so I didn't really have any chat with her, which I do regret, but it was better for her.

I'm just wondering did your official complaint lead to anything? I thought about it at the time, reporting the doctor, but I didn't. Can't remember my reason, but I felt it was better not to.

Snowie

im allergic to penicillin.... I was giving it bye some, nurse, as result I got to spend an extra 2 days in hospital It wasn't really that nice :rolleyes:......

she did call round every day and said she was sorry etc... Ive never been so hot in all my life my temperature when through roof...

Wasn't particularly nice experience...

personally I don't think there's any room for any kinda of misdiagnosis or medical blunders...

especially if lives are at risk... or just the dammage a miss diagnosiss could cause some one....

Tho then again there's a guy who I don't know personally but from my locals town. He went to a doctor with what he thought was a migraine the doctor told him to go home....and take some migraleave 24 hours later he died of a brain tumor...