Social services..to call or not to call

LegacyUser

Looking for some feedback on a moral dilemma I have.

I have a neighbour who is a single mother of four. Her eldest is about 13 and the youngest three are all under 7, the younger one being about three.

There have been many issues with this family over the last year or so. I have heard her screaming at the kids using the most foul words, they seem to live on a diet of junk food, look unkempt etc but in the last three months or so things have gotten worse.

A few weeks ago I came home from work at about seven and one of the little ones who is about five or so was standing outside in the garden crying. It was getting cold and he had only light clothes on and no shoes. When I asked him why he didn't go indoors he told me mammy had locked him out because he was bold.

Its been on my mind ever since and while everyone I tell seems to have a "don't get involved" approach I just feel very uncomfortable and indeed worried about what is actually going on.

The final straw though was last night. It appears she left the teenager in charge of the younger ones while she went out. She rolled in about ten this morning in a taxi wearing clubbing style gear. I didn't get to sleep until four this morning because of the noise which was a combination of the younger kids crying and the older one and her friends playing loud music and shouting and screaming.

My son whose 15 says he saw the older child and a friend in the back garden at 2am drinking from beer cans.

I think now the time has come to step in and ring social services but I don't know what to do, who to call, what to say. My husband has told me that if I do this there is no going back and could I be happy with children potentially being taken away from their home etc. As bad as her parenting skills are the kids do seem to love her, they don't appear to be afraid of her whenever I see them out.

Can anyone please help me decide what I should do on this one...its been a sleepless night for me and I am annoyed by it and I want to be sure that I'm acting in the best interests of the family rather than for my own selfish needs.

Pixie 98

Dear worried mum I would strongly advise that u call social services and make an anonymous complaint in relation to this woman and her parenting... If you do call them they will be very helpful and ask you a few questions. You can then advise them of what you have observed and are concerned for the children involved. The kids will not be taken from her straight away and maybe all this mum needs is some parenting classes and guidance. She might be having a tough time coping and not having any support network..
Hope this helps.

LegacyUser

Thanks Pixie. Part of the reason I haven't done anything before now is fear. I'm afraid that anything I say will be said to the mother and that it might cause problems for me. I know that in the past before we moved here there were issues with her and her partner, late night parties etc and the people on the street who made complaints had their property vandalised.

I know putting my needs first is probably highly selfish but I am afraid of what might happen. Will anything I say be said in confidence?

Nevyn

worriedmom The socail workers won't tell her where the complaint came from.
They sounds like a family in crises and once they are being look at by socail workers there is a whole range of supports which can be put in place for them.

tenchi-fan

She sounds like a useless individual.

Of course you should report her. Make a bullet-point list containing details of the date and description of the events and hand it in to social services.

Pixie 98

Sorry Thaedydal.. Still new to this..

Worriedmum, as Thaedydal said social workers and social services will not advise that it was you that made the complaint. They might be aware of the family already but i would definitely call them as it sounds as if this family are in trouble and the smaller kids are at risk...

You will feel better for doing it in case anything ever did happen at least you would have done what you could. x

LegacyUser

Does anyone have any links to what organisations I should contact? Have tried to google it without much success

PopUp

CitizensInformation.ie has the relevant info here.

The family will not be broken up on the strength of one phone call. There is a lot of support out there for struggling parents. The best thing you can do for the family and for the children is to call.

cutymonalisa

You do need to report this OP. Phone your local health centre and ask to speak to the Duty Social Worker. You can of course remain anonymous, and if you do give your name specify clearly that you do not want it divulged. All referrals must be followed up by the Social Work Dept whether anon or not. All persons making referrals to the HSE are protected under the Protection for Persons Reporting Child Abuse Act ('98).

As a previous poster stated, the family may already be known. Do not let fear that the children will be taken into care prevent you from making a report - that is a last resort and the vast majority of social work time is spent trying to support families to remain intact, safe and functioning. Good luck OP.

Nevyn

worriedmom wrote: »

Does anyone have any links to what organisations I should contact? Have tried to google it without much success

Ring your local HSE health clinic and ask to speak to the social worker on call.

You can find a list county by county here.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Children_and_Family_Services/Child_Welfare_and_Protection/Social_Workers/

freakmagnet

Plus, you are thinking that the outcome of the call will result in the worst case scenario, that is, phone call to social services = kids taken in to care. It won't - it'll bring it to the attention of the social services and their mum will have ample time to get her house in order. IF the social services then take the decision to take children into care (after considerable time i'm sure) it will be THEIR considered professional opinion - and this decision will be taken COMPLTELY independently of the original 'tip off'. In other words, IF the worst case scenario happens, or eventually happens, it will have had nothing to do with you (despite your original tip off) - it'll be about the welfare of the children.

metrovelvet

Just be aware that when you call social services they are obliged to report it to the police and the police are obliged to investigate.

Nevyn

metrovelvet wrote: »

Just be aware that when you call social services they are obliged to report it to the police and the police are obliged to investigate.

Only where they find criminal neglect or abuse, where they find a family struggling they access support services for them.

Nevyn

Please note when someone uses the anon posting system to break the rules of the forum and the site, we can back track it and ban thier account from the forum.

metrovelvet

Nope. They are obliged to report it to the guards even before they have investigated it themselves, whatever they find, even if they find nothing.

freakmagnet

metrovelvet wrote: »

Nope. They are obliged to report it to the guards even before they have investigated it themselves, whatever they find, even if they find nothing.

Seems highly unusual. Report what exactly? That the OP doesn't think the care provided is adequate? That's not a criminal offence. I agree that the OP should report it - but she is reporting her concerns on the level of care - so a professional can assess whether it requires professional input - but from what i can see, there is no criminal offence here. I'm surprised that there is a duty to report circumstances where is there is no breech of the law to a law enforcement authority - seems bizarre!

metrovelvet

I agree with you, I am just pointing out their protocols.

cutymonalisa

metrovelvet wrote: »

Nope. They are obliged to report it to the guards even before they have investigated it themselves, whatever they find, even if they find nothing.

Untrue Metrovelvet - A CPN (Child Protection Notification) is only sent to the Gardai following Initial Assessment and then only if there is concern as to criminal abuse.

CPN'S vice versa from the Gardai to HSE are sent in all cases.

metrovelvet

I'm pretty sure you are wrong. I will call them tomorrow and double check.

wylo

Remember that incident about a year ago maybe with the mother with her 6 kids in Roscommen? There was alcohol , neglect and even incest.

Dont be naive to think that the kids will manage themselves, call Social Services immediately please. They wont just come and take her kids. They will only do it with good reason. And if they do you will have done the right thing.

littlefriend

This is my personal experience dating from October last year to date.

I have had dealings with social services before and I gave my name at the beginning of the call. The guy said that he would write on the file that didn't want my name disclosed but he couldn't guarantee it would be kept private. Subsequently I didn't care that my name was given so it wasn't something I had to worry about [incidentally my name was given].

I think you should call them but do not give your name. Like you, I was worried that I wasn't doing the right thing but when I thought about it the only thing stopping me from making the call really was that I might get hassle over doing it. I decided that that was a crap reason and that calling social services might scare the parents into copping on. It didn't :rolleyes:. It turned out that there was already a file open on this couple. Social services haven't done a whole lot about the situation to be honest.

LegacyUser

OP.

You don't know how you are going to destroy their lives, so don't. Keep your big nose out of it.

My life was destroyed when a nosy teacher called social services when I was in secondary school.

It took years to re-build a relationship with my parents and siblings because they believed that I reported them to social services and not the teacher. I ended up leaving home at 18 and getting involved in drugs and had many a suicide attempt.

Things are mended now, 10 years later, but our family experienced something terrible.

One of my parents slapped me on the face and it left a mark so teacher decided to call SS.

Just don't get involved. Please, from the girl who was in her early teens when it happened, it tears a family apart, no matter how bloody worse off they appear to you.

I still burst into tears years later thinking about the turmoil our family went through, visits from social workers, I saw my father and mother crying, they were trying their best. One of my siblings didnt speak to me for years. It broke me up completely.

MIND your own business. Get on with your own life. Make that call and you will never know personally the pain that you will cause off your own hunch.

barbiegirl

angryposter wrote: »

OP.

You don't know how you are going to destroy their lives, so don't. Keep your big nose out of it.

My life was destroyed when a nosy teacher called social services when I was in secondary school.

It took years to re-build a relationship with my parents and siblings because they believed that I reported them to social services and not the teacher. I ended up leaving home at 18 and getting involved in drugs and had many a suicide attempt.

Things are mended now, 10 years later, but our family experienced something terrible.

One of my parents slapped me on the face and it left a mark so teacher decided to call SS.

Just don't get involved. Please, from the girl who was in her early teens when it happened, it tears a family apart, no matter how bloody worse off they appear to you.

I still burst into tears years later thinking about the turmoil our family went through, visits from social workers, I saw my father and mother crying, they were trying their best. One of my siblings didnt speak to me for years. It broke me up completely.

MIND your own business. Get on with your own life. Make that call and you will never know personally the pain that you will cause off your own hunch.

Sorry to hear you had such a hard time. Truely I am however I disagree completly.

OP report her and hopefully it will lead to her getting help. Mum being out all night leaving a 13 year old in charge is not on. If there is nothing to be found then nothing will be found, if there is, then you will hopefully have helped the family

Overheal

angryposter wrote: »

OP.

You don't know how you are going to destroy their lives, so don't. Keep your big nose out of it.

My life was destroyed when a nosy teacher called social services when I was in secondary school.

It took years to re-build a relationship with my parents and siblings because they believed that I reported them to social services and not the teacher. I ended up leaving home at 18 and getting involved in drugs and had many a suicide attempt.

Things are mended now, 10 years later, but our family experienced something terrible.

One of my parents slapped me on the face and it left a mark so teacher decided to call SS.

Just don't get involved. Please, from the girl who was in her early teens when it happened, it tears a family apart, no matter how bloody worse off they appear to you.

I still burst into tears years later thinking about the turmoil our family went through, visits from social workers, I saw my father and mother crying, they were trying their best. One of my siblings didnt speak to me for years. It broke me up completely.

MIND your own business. Get on with your own life. Make that call and you will never know personally the pain that you will cause off your own hunch.

When you say it left a mark how long did this mark persist?

I'm sorry for the ordeal you underwent but I also question how things may have gone down if nothing was said. That your parents would even dramatize it and place the blame on you with no evidence speaks volumes about the kind of people they must have been. Why blame you anyway; as if they knew they were being abusive to you, enough to think you would report them.

Nobody is going to pretend reporting a family to Social Services is a rosy affair but then neither is the alternative.

Nevyn

angryposter wrote: »

MIND your own business. Get on with your own life. Make that call and you will never know personally the pain that you will cause off your own hunch.

People minding their own business is what has children suffering from abuse and neglect. Adults should ring if they think children are in danger.

I am sorry your family had issue to deal with but a lot had changed in how cases are handled over the last 10 years and teachers have a duty of care esp if they see marks of visual abuse on a child. The reaction and assumptions of your family are not the fault of the teacher or the socail workers.

oohlala

op have you tried any communication with the mother.She might be at the end of her tether and afraid to ask for help.

Or she could be incapable, obviously i don't know the situation. I would just question that if a mother would lock out a child in the front garden, they don't seem concerned about covering up abuse and maybe it is neglect that she needs help with.

I know a childminder who was reported to ss, she was investigated and it had an impact on her business. Also when she was cleared she was offered the name of the person who made the complaint. She decided not to take it as she assumed she knew the person who complained and didn't want that in her head when she had been cleared, ( it was that she had too many children in her care that were playing in garden but the persoon who complained didn't know she had hired an additional staff member to help). I guess that the confidentiality isn't as clear cut but both her and i were surprised she was offered the name, she hadn't asked.

Good luck with it op.

Mighty_Mouse

Hold up just a tick.
The OP's argument seems slightly moralist/do-good/fence-peering for my liking.
Why doesnt her husband strongly agree with her?
If there are clear signs of domestic abuse, why isn't he outraged also?

There have been many issues with this family over the last year or so

Have you had personal neighbourly disputes?
Are you sure these are not clouding your judgement?
Are you sure you are not just looking for another angle to a personal dispute?

I have heard her screaming at the kids using the most foul words

Not unusual in many familys.

they seem to live on a diet of junk food

How do you know? Not unusual.

about seven and one of the little ones who is about five or so was standing outside in the garden crying. It was getting cold and he had only light clothes on and no shoes

7pm between June-July?
Is not particularly cold.
Shoes - not essential during summer months.
Was he left outside for the night? I'll assume not.

When I asked him why he didn't go indoors he told me mammy had locked him out because he was bold.

Being told to "go outside & play", "not to come home until dark", was pretty much standard from May-August when I was growing up, no matter what the weather!

It appears she left the teenager in charge of the younger ones while she went out.

The eldesnt is 13 yrs old?
The mother is single in charge of 4? Maybe she needed a night out.

She rolled in about ten this morning in a taxi wearing clubbing style gear. I didn't get to sleep until four this morning

she arrived home @ 10 am or 10 pm?
I'll assume you mean 10 pm (this morning?)
Which is hardly a late night?
So what if she is wearing "nightclub" clothes? Do you approve of her dress sense of consider her a "tart"?
Had a party in the house until 4am?
It is the summer. The kids dont have school.........................every now & then might not be competely detrimental.

My son whose 15 says he saw the older child and a friend in the back garden at 2am drinking from beer cans

Many households allow 13 years olds 1 supervised beer now & then.


This lady's parenting is far from perfect.
But you are proposing breaking up a family here.
Do you really trust & believe in the abilities of Irish social services?
Have you spoken with her, asked her does she help?
How is she coping being a single woman with 4 kids?

There may be explanations for many of the incidents you have mentioned.
Have you witnessed any signs of domestic abuse?
Do party's happen constantly every night/weekend? (or once in a while)
Do the children attend school?
Are there any signs of drug use?

Traditional family models are breaking down.
Two parent familys are becoming a thing of the past. (40-50%% divorce rate in USA)
In many households the line between parent & friend are becoming slightly blurred.
Children are growing up quicker being exposed to sex drink drugs & voilence at earlier ages.
But are these kids loved?
Are they being cared for?
Is the parent acting in their best interests?
While it might not be perfect. The odd party & can of beer doesnt mean they are not.

Fox McCloud

Oh for goodness sake a social services call does not equal kids being dragged from their parents loving embrace! It hasnt meant that for years! They try to take every route before removing a child from parents custody, sometimes it seems kids should be taken away from their parents long before they actually are infact.

13 is way to young to be minding 3 young kids. That in itself would merit a call, its dangerous for all of the kids. Leaving a 5 year old locked out as punishment is a pretty horrible thing to do, 7pm in summer clothes with no shoes would be cold especially if your 5.

Jumbo156

Mighty_Mouse wrote: »

Hold up just a tick.
The OP's argument seems slightly moralist/do-good/fence-peering for my liking.


7pm between June-July?
Is not particularly cold.
Shoes - not essential during summer months.
Was he left outside for the night? I'll assume not.

Being told to "go outside & play", "not to come home until dark", was pretty much standard from May-August when I was growing up, no matter what the weather!


The eldesnt is 13 yrs old?
The mother is single in charge of 4? Maybe she needed a night out.

7pm between June-July?
Is not particularly cold.
Shoes - not essential during summer months.
Was he left outside for the night? I'll assume not

she arrived home @ 10 am or 10 pm?
I'll assume you mean 10 pm (this morning?)
Which is hardly a late night?
So what if she is wearing "nightclub" clothes? Do you approve of her dress sense of consider her a "tart"?
Had a party in the house until 4am?
It is the summer. The kids dont have school.........................every now & then might not be competely detrimental.

Wow, what a load of rubbish.

Ten this morning , to me and everybody else means 10am in the morning.
Would you really leave 4 kids at home all night, the oldest being 13..

It's summer so lets all leave the kids out parting til 4am,sure they have no school...what a load of rubbish.

No need for shoes during the summer!, are you really being serious or trolling.

Do you have any kids, god help them if you do!

O/P report her, as previoulsy said, it won't immediately mean her kids will be taking away from her. What it will do is give her the kick up the ar5e she needs to look at herself and her parenting skills

Who knows, there might be a deeper problem that SS might be able to help her work through.

Nevyn

Mighty_Mouse wrote: »

But you are proposing breaking up a family here.
Do you really trust & believe in the abilities of Irish social services?

Ringing the socail workers does not = them taking the kids, they will come out and have a look at the family and see what supports are needed.

Mighty_Mouse wrote: »

Have you spoken with her, asked her does she help?
How is she coping being a single woman with 4 kids?

The socail workers will do that, and if she needs it they can have supports such as care workers call to help with the kids, or sort out the house or mind them while she does parenting courses, or get the kids enrolled in the local barnados schools program.

There is a lot of help and resources out there but only socail workers can access them for families which need help, Social workers in this country spend thier time supporting families and do not arrive to takes kids away.
And that can't be done with out a court order from a judge.

Justask

Hi....worried mum

You sound like you live next door to the same person i do!!!!!!
You have to report this woman, you would never every forgive yourself if something happened to one of the children.

Your local Garda or TD will give you the direction you should take.
Just one bit of advice do not give your name because if this so called mother gets wind of it you kids will become the target!

Best of luck

LegacyUser

Thanks for all the info and support everyone. Just to update you all the same thing happened again last night.

I had some friends over and one of the them knocked in next door just after 1am and asked to speak to the mother and was told straight out that she wasn't there. So we called the police and they told me that they have been made aware of issues with this family in the past and social services have been made aware.

Mighty mouse I would just like to let you know that I am not a nosey neighbour, I don't have anything against this woman and am not in the least bit judgemental. But when I hear shouting on a repetitive basis day in day out and see first hard what I consider to be neglect I have to do something.

metrovelvet

It was after 1am and you had your friend knock on your neighbor's door?

cutymonalisa

metrovelvet wrote: »

It was after 1am and you had your friend knock on your neighbor's door?

Errr, yes beacuse they obviously felt the children were home alone. What is wrong with this? If anything it really proves how at risk the kiddies are / were if they did open the door at that hour.

LegacyUser

metrovelvet wrote: »

It was after 1am and you had your friend knock on your neighbor's door?

Door was wide open actually and there was a constant stream of kids running round the side of the house and around the back. We were in my front room and had been listening to the sound of kids messing since about eight. My friend went into the garden and tapped on the door but from the noise coming out of the house we knew everyone was awake.

I do feel now that it definately is better to go with your gut and let the authorities know if you have any concerns. We all know the horror stories out there and I would not be able to live with myself if something happened and I had said nothing.

ncmc

Well done worriedmom, you have done the right thing. It's not easy to report this kind of thing, but imagine how you would feel if something terrible happened to one of the kids and you hadn't done anything. Too many childrens lives have been ruined because people turned a blind eye to abuse because it was the easy thing to do. Hopefully social service will be able to sort something out for this family and they kids will have some chance of a future.

boarduser1980

worried mum - i've been following this whole thread. i think you should go with your gut instinct. just cos SS call, does not mean the kids will be taking away, they will just monitor the family thats all. Your not a nosey neighbour - your a concerned neighbour.

LegacyUser

Read this whole thread and I've never seen so much rubbish spouted in my life as what some people have written here.

This mother's behaviour is not normal, acceptable or excusable in any way. OP, you did the right thing. Good parents don't leave their children unattended all night, they don't lock a child outside with no shoes "because he was bold". These are signs of neglect. I work in the care system and reading the OP's post was like reading a case file. Of course, the children would not be taken into care immediately unless there was evidence of serious neglect, or criminal abuse - as is the case with all referrals. But if they were taken into care, the it is the MOTHER'S fault, not a "nosy neighbour". Honestly, what a load of crap. These children are being neglected, end of story. The McColgan and Roscommon cases might have come to light earlier if there were more nosy neighbours, GP's, teachers. But no, nobody tells an Irish mother what to do with her children and the old Irish crap of "don't get involved" still holds sway with some. Yes families do get broken up sometimes but only as a last resort and only for the protection and wellbeing of children.

Metrovelvet - Gardai are only informed of referrals where an assessment has found criminal wrongdoing, not as a matter of course. After all ,the initial referral could be malicious or mistaken and the children may not be at risk at all.

oopsadaisy

Completely agree.

Social Services Worker wrote: »

Read this whole thread and I've never seen so much rubbish spouted in my life as what some people have written here.

This mother's behaviour is not normal, acceptable or excusable in any way. OP, you did the right thing. Good parents don't leave their children unattended all night, they don't lock a child outside with no shoes "because he was bold". These are signs of neglect. I work in the care system and reading the OP's post was like reading a case file. Of course, the children would not be taken into care immediately unless there was evidence of serious neglect, or criminal abuse - as is the case with all referrals. But if they were taken into care, the it is the MOTHER'S fault, not a "nosy neighbour". Honestly, what a load of crap. These children are being neglected, end of story. The McColgan and Roscommon cases might have come to light earlier if there were more nosy neighbours, GP's, teachers. But no, nobody tells an Irish mother what to do with her children and the old Irish crap of "don't get involved" still holds sway with some. Yes families do get broken up sometimes but only as a last resort and only for the protection and wellbeing of children.

Metrovelvet - Gardai are only informed of referrals where an assessment has found criminal wrongdoing, not as a matter of course. After all ,the initial referral could be malicious or mistaken and the children may not be at risk at all.