Quickest Blackbelt

SBG Ireland

gunni and bj penn both got bbs in under 4yrs in bjj...however as bjj is 'testable' im sure neither would mind proving they know their art

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

gunni and bj penn both got bbs in under 4yrs in bjj...however as bjj is 'testable' im sure neither would mind proving they know their art

all sytrems are 'testable'

Doug Cartel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

all sytrems are 'testable'

Perhaps, but the people in some systems aren't as open to taking that test as others.

OLDMAN1

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Perhaps, but the people in some systems aren't as open to taking that test as others.

i 100% agree, but remember what you said-it's the people.

cletus

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i 100% agree, but remember what you said-it's the people.

However, if enough of the people in the style resist testing, then there is the chance that the style itself will drift from what is effective

Doug Cartel

cletus wrote: »

However, if enough of the people in the style resist testing, then there is the chance that the style itself will drift from what is effective

You can still test something regardless of its effectiveness. You just might not like the results.

cletus

I agree with your posts Doug, I'm trying to refute that absolute statement of its the man not the style

OLDMAN1

cletus wrote: »

I agree with your posts Doug, I'm trying to refute that absolute statement of its the man not the style

first of all i used the word system not style,in my limited experience in a lot of cases it is the man not the system. there is a reason that some systems are still around after between 100 and 400 years, they stood the test of time they just did not stand the test of some men...

Doug Cartel

No system is guaranteed to turn you into a badass, and some people win fights despite training in complete BS.

You can't look at these things on an individual level. You have to concentrate not on the best and the worst fighters, but the average Joes in the system - what are they like, what's the spread like in ability?

Ug Lee

SBG Ireland wrote: »

gunni and bj penn both got bbs in under 4yrs in bjj...however as bjj is 'testable' im sure neither would mind proving they know their art

How come gunni and bj penn got their blackbelt so soon? Is it because the trained more often, are more talented, trained harder or a combination or the above/

Just curious.

BobbyOLeary

Doug Cartel wrote: »

what's the spread like in ability?

This is it I think. I know plenty of black belts in trad styles who are tough, tough men. I also plenty of them who are not. With Judo and BJJ (only other MAs I have any experience with or know people in) however I've yet to meet someone who was a BB who wasn't tough and able to work their stuff.

I think the spread in ability is a little tighter with MAs that actively test themselves under live conditions.

da-bres

Ug Lee wrote: »

How come gunni and bj penn got their blackbelt so soon? Is it because the trained more often, are more talented, trained harder or a combination or the above/

Just curious.

All of the above. BJ isnt called the prodigy for no reason and Gunni is just a complete freak of nature!

I think Lyod Irvin got his black belt in under 4 years too.

I love seeing guys like braulio and ryan hall who didn get there blacks for a long time doing great in bjj competition, braulio is one of the best BJJ fighters on the planet and he always talks of how he used to get smashed in competitions as a blue belt, first five competitions, beaten in the first round.

abu dabi absolute champ 2009

SBG Ireland

Ug Lee wrote: »

How come gunni and bj penn got their blackbelt so soon? Is it because the trained more often, are more talented, trained harder or a combination or the above/

Just curious.

i can only speak for gunni as i dont know about bj's early training days...but i would hazzard a guess it was similar

simply put he got his 5000hrs in mat time in the time it'd take the average person 10years (http://www.infoniac.com/science/it-takes-10,000-hours-of-practice-to-become-a-genius.html). imo it takes about 5000hrs to become a bjj bb (solid technical knowledge in all areas) and then a further 5000 to become an 'expert' at it.

what most people describe as 'talent' usually is just time on the mat, but only every time

cletus

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

first of all i used the word system not style,in my limited experience in a lot of cases it is the man not the system. there is a reason that some systems are still around after between 100 and 400 years, they stood the test of time they just did not stand the test of some men...

Fine, system then. With regards to the age of a system, thats another discussion, but to further what Doug said below, Its what the "man", or in other words, the practitioners of a system do with that system that makes it what it is. In an extreme example, if all practitioners of bjj decided in the morning to stop copeting and pressure testing, then it would fundamentally change that system.

We constantly hear from "trad" martial artists that what certain people do is not the "real 'insert name here'". Yet it carries the name of that system

Doug Cartel wrote: »

No system is guaranteed to turn you into a badass, and some people win fights despite training in complete BS.

You can't look at these things on an individual level. You have to concentrate not on the best and the worst fighters, but the average Joes in the system - what are they like, what's the spread like in ability?

Niall Keane

BJJ is simply young; already belts can be gained on line through internet courses. The rot has begun, this is inevitable. Most people wish to be perceived as martial artists rather than train to be fighters.

People love to piggy back on the achievements of others. It’s a false logic, but one that many accept. Gracie beat the world, he does BJJ, I do BJJ, and I can beat the world.

Nothing new here, in 1850 in Beijing it would have been Yang is invincible, he does tai chi, if I do tai chi, I can be invincible.

Where as it is true that should someone sincerely train either of these systems, both of which require the practitioner to compete / cross hands, as their founders did, that then with practice and effort one can become a powerful fighter, the sad reality is that excellence is often surrounded by ineptitude, those wishing to live under the shadow instead of standing on the shoulders of the metaphorical giant.

The belt system to me facilitates this, it is a perceived badge of quality, and that’s fine if such is earned through non-bias testing say for example to become a blackbelt you must become a champion in an international etc. but once it is subjective it is open to abuse, and standards are set to slide. This also of course destroys the art in the public’s eyes, all it will take is a Gracie type personality from another style to pick out a genuine BJJ Blackbelt gained from the internet, or without too much real experience, i.e. without ring craft, set this person up to be taken apart by a semi-proficient exponent of his own style to demonstrate how his stuff can wipe the floor with BJJ. Sure some decent BJJ guy might come along and set the record straight. But the doubt has been planted, no longer is it BJJ that equals the quick fix, and so it loses popularity and credibility, now people realise that they have to work and that’s not what they’re after at all. And so the cycle continues down the decades – Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ......

Subjective assessment eventually becomes like a Tai Chi form competition, usually even the people judging such are devoid of martial virtue never mind the performers. An art that once was unbeatable in China is reduced to a dance. It only took 150 years! There are those of us, including my own teacher Dan Docherty who practice what the “industry” deem “practical” Tai Chi Chuan, and are seen as mavericks, anomalies, even on this board I have been questioned as to whether I’m really practicing Tai Chi Chuan as what I do works, and as such seems incongruent. See it doesn’t look like the same stuff the dancers do. It only takes 150 years!

My judgement may seem harsh, but through my gym doors I could not count the number of high level Dans that have come from other systems that at most times I could not differentiate from total beginners when it came to sparring. Often I've come across new students who are building site workers who have way better movement and agility, and ten times more power than lads who've paid a fortune out over the years for their belts to 3rd+ Dan. Maybe I’m getting soft as I get older, but it's very heart-breaking to see the realisation cross someone’s face that realises that they have wasted 10-15 years of their lives on stuff that doesn't work. I don't bring this home to them, I’m not as cruel as I used to be, the builder guy learning alongside them with me for just 2-3 months does by totally dominating them, not by power alone, which could be gained from swinging a sledge, but by being able to move with more fluidity that he has picked up in just three months unencumbered by the conditioned cage of false tradition imposed upon the blackbelt taught by lineages of non-fighting 33rd Dans or the likes.
I hope BJJ doesn’t become what every other art before has become, adulterated no infected by charlatans, I hope you discover a way all others have failed to find. And I hope all others here who still use belts are sincere and remain so. I just think it’s a big ask, a tall order. I say this from the perspective of a Tai Chi Chuan fighter, someone who has seen what he loves popularised and watered down, bastardised by those seeking undeserved respect and fame as teachers of the esoteric.

...for they are all there but one - I, Chingachgook - Last of the Mohicans.

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

BJJ is simply young;

It's older than Tae Kwon Do, even taking a conservative estimate of when it broke off from Judo.

already belts can be gained on line through internet courses. The rot has begun, this is inevitable.

There'll always be some form of rot. Organisms need immune systems to survive, martial arts systems aren't much different.

People love to piggy back on the achievements of others. It’s a false logic, but one that many accept.

I won't argue with that. Happens in all walks of life though. How many times have you heard a premiership football fan say the words "we won at the weekend" even though they spent the 90 minutes sat in front of the TV?

Yeah the belts are a problem when they start to become untested symbols of some supposed skill that is so deadly it must never be used, but they're also useful tools for organising classes where you have people of different skill levels, and for setting up divisions in competitions.

pearsquasher

Do Bujinkan instructors in general market themselves using their grade

Generally not.. they usually just mention their instructor licence on their "about" page. I include my own grade because I got asked a lot by new students what grade I was. I usually tell them and then discuss the whole ranking procedure in the Bujinkan emphasising the nature of the rank being a student-teacher thing.

EnjoyChoke

Fairly long winded post there Niall, so I'm not fully sure what your exact point is.
You seem to be comparing BJJ to other "Belt style" martial arts and citing its youth as the only differential in the effectiveness of the art.

BJJ (and Judo) are full contact, sports based, Martial arts. This makes them superior to "Martial Arts" that are not full contact and sports based.
The holy grail in BJJ is performance and belts are a direct reflection of this. There are very few other "belted martial arts" where this is the case.
You don't need to worry about BJJ becoming "infected", rolling will keep it pure.

HammerHeadGym

@ Enjoy Choke

I think the point Niall was trying to make is that BJJ is relatively new to the scence and political cliques and rifts havent had a chance to divide the community, as has happened in other martial arts.
As for Bjj not becoming infected, it's already too late mate. I'm sure you can name at least one club in this country where grades are not considered as good as other clubs.
Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

OLDMAN1

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Fairly long winded post there Niall, so I'm not fully sure what your exact point is.
You seem to be comparing BJJ to other "Belt style" martial arts and citing its youth as the only differential in the effectiveness of the art.
This, as my old English teacher would say, is bollox.
BJJ (and Judo) are full contact, sports based, Martial arts. This makes them superior to "Martial Arts" that are not full contact and sports based.
The holy grail in BJJ is performance and belts are a direct reflection of this. There are very few other "belted martial arts" where this is the case.
You don't need to worry about BJJ becoming "infected", rolling will keep it pure.

easychoke ,you should read that again , it wasn't a insult to bjj

EnjoyChoke

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

easychoke ,you should read that again , it wasn't a insult to bjj

Never said it was.

EnjoyChoke

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

@ Enjoy Choke

I think the point Niall was trying to make is that BJJ is relatively new to the scence and political cliques and rifts havent had a chance to divide the community, as has happened in other martial arts.
As for Bjj not becoming infected, it's already too late mate. I'm sure you can name at least one club in this country where grades are not considered as good as other clubs.
Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

Who wrote off who?
Again, it's very straightforward to establish credentials in BJJ: How well do you roll against an opponent of similar size/age?

cowzerp

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

Not been funny but MMA Lucan are an MMA club, Not a BJJ club..

Sid_Justice

Niall Keane wrote: »

BJJ is simply young;

surely using your logic, in Brazil the belt system should be an obsolete way to determine skill level because it's been there ~100 years. As far as I know, this isnt the case and all guys that are purple brown and black are legimatelly skilled.

there are some online websites that give out the first and only the first belt based on corresponance courses, it doesn't overly effect standards in general.

Sid_Justice

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

Are you sure you're remembering what happened correctly. There were investigations, based on experience levels and grades of those involved. It's all been worked out now as far as I know and one of their guys is fighting on cowzerp's show for the 2nd time next month.

cletus

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

@ Enjoy Choke

I think the point Niall was trying to make is that BJJ is relatively new to the scence and political cliques and rifts havent had a chance to divide the community, as has happened in other martial arts.

But it has. there is already a pretty mojor rift between GJJ and BJJ. This hasn't overly affected the quality of bjj though, as you still have to get on the mats.

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

As for Bjj not becoming infected, it's already too late mate. I'm sure you can name at least one club in this country where grades are not considered as good as other clubs.
Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

I think this is quite simply answered. The bjj community in Ireland is pretty small when compared, for instance, to TKD. Most legit people know, or at least know of each other, so if a new name comes on the scene that people dont recognise, people tend to be wary. This in itself can help prevent the "rot" that people are talking about

And so the cycle continues down the decades – Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ......

As for Niall's quote above, even though I tend to agree with your posts (when I can work through them ), I would argue that the cycle you spoke about hasn't happened to judo, Muay Thai or bjj.

This is what I was saying in a previous post. If enough of the practitioners of a martial art drift from what it was, then this new thing it becomes is, essentially, now that ma. When you speak of tai chi, Niall, you openly admit that the majority of what is now practiced is basically dance, so, at least to a lay person, tai chi is what it is now, rather than what it once was, ie ritualised dance.

The difference with judo, bjj, muay thai is that practitioners dont engage in a "my master can beat your master" type of debate, nor do they discuss who has "the real" art. They simply compete.

A perfect example of the above was the thread about the gracie combatives course, and whether a blue belt in that system should compete at blue bel level in competition. The answer came down to "get in and compete and you'll find out soon enough where you are"

cowzerp

Sid_Justice wrote: »

It's all been worked out now as far as I know and one of their guys is fighting on cowzerp's show for the 2nd time next month.

5 of there lads are on the show, 1 was on last time, as far as been legit getting in to compete is the number 1 way of proving your not a fake, win or lose shows your willing to put it out there, they did amd are doing that.

Niall Keane

Quote:
And so the cycle continues down the decades – Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ......
As for Niall's quote above, even though I tend to agree with your posts (when I can work through them ), I would argue that the cycle you spoke about hasn't happened to judo, Muay Thai or bjj.

To clarify, I am not saying these arts have rotted, for one thing Muay Thai has no belt system, and seems therefore like boxing etc. to be resistant to the “respect my rank” virus, I mention these only in the context as arts that have at one time or another being seen by the masses in the martial arts community as being the next big thing, the holy grail of martial art, and while they all have virtue when you actually practice them, you will not by simply setting foot in, or even taking a 6 week course in one of their gyms become Bruce “I’m hard” Lee. Unless of course you mean by that becoming a martial arts actor, although the arts are not responsible for that?

All I was saying was that every ten years or so some art is marketed as superior and many times in the past their popularity has been generated by film stars (Sean Connery and Judo), (Bruce Lee and Kung Fu), (Van Dam and Kickboxing and Muay Thai), and so begin to appeal to those looking to fulfil their fantasies and for a shortcut to do so. Yes they existed before the film stars, but as such were underground to an extent, and therefore “fighting” to establish relevance.

BJJ has like many of today’s popular music of course enjoyed a unique development - YouTube, the mass access to the internet etc. so a martial artist Gracie has actually managed almost alone to reach into the main stream of popular culture. I know Gracie can walk the walk, and has skills to teach, and guys who have fought at international level like him probably have similar levels of skill, but what of the local high-school black belts, you know Johnny the lad who has had 8 regional fights and therefore qualified, he might be the best guy ever in the whole village! Is his black belt the same as Gracies? Is the one he’ll hand out in ten years going to be the same? If he has never reached the bar in international fighting how can he assess such, how can he recognize it? Now I don’t think this has happened yet in BJJ, I think correct me if I’m wrong that there still exists a tight hold of who can award such “honours” and so quality is maintained for the moment, but Judo is older and bigger, can Judo Black Belts only be handed out by Olympic champions? I don’t think this is a requirement, but people have mentioned a difference in skill between BJJ and Judo Blackbelts, could this be why?

Before Yang Cheng Fu, grandson of the famous fighter taught in mass, Wudang Nei Jia (Tai chi) was considered only as an effective martial art. Once the hippies took over and started handing out “teaching certificates” and setting up associations the “general” quality of what was being taught as tai chi chuan nose-dived. Why?

I believe that when the fallacy of a short cut is exposed to the masses, ie, not having to train hard but to use instead a magic sword, and especially when the new tricks and strategies of the once new art have become assimilated into general martial arts practice so supprise is llost, the process begins again. The process being fantasists reluctant to get hurt or even sweat a little seeking an easy way to be recognized amongst their peers as fighters.

This sickness is not inherent in the art itself, but when such persons gather in numbers and are given artificial hierarchy (bowing to cotton rather than physical belts) you set up a platform that allows the tyranny of the weak to dominate the strong. On an organizational level cliques form to prevent new better (disruptive) individuals from taking over their business. It’s human nature. This is what has happened in the past, again and again and again. Is it not what MMA reacted against?

And that is what my point amounts to. Belt systems allow artificial hierarchy to be established, and worst of all maintained, I haven’t heard of a demotion? Can you lose your black belt if a blue belt taps you out? I don’t believe that they are necessary to teach martial arts, many successful arts don’t have them, nor to organize competitions, Boxing, Muay Thai, Sanshou, MMA don’t seem to need them?

Now I don’t know the structure of the systems thatt use them, and maybe they are genuinely useful to teach a structured syllabus? So I don’t write them off completely, but they do to me at least seem more a danger than a safeguard?

Doug Cartel

Niall, the difference in skill levels between a BJJ black belt and a Judo black belt was explained earlier. In short, it doesn't make sense to directly compare the two, so please don't use that comparison to try and claim things are getting watered down.

Sid_Justice

People that think MMA is just the next passing fad (kickboxing) are severely mistaken.