Quickest Blackbelt

EnjoyChoke

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

easychoke ,you should read that again , it wasn't a insult to bjj

Never said it was.

EnjoyChoke

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

@ Enjoy Choke

I think the point Niall was trying to make is that BJJ is relatively new to the scence and political cliques and rifts havent had a chance to divide the community, as has happened in other martial arts.
As for Bjj not becoming infected, it's already too late mate. I'm sure you can name at least one club in this country where grades are not considered as good as other clubs.
Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

Who wrote off who?
Again, it's very straightforward to establish credentials in BJJ: How well do you roll against an opponent of similar size/age?

cowzerp

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

Not been funny but MMA Lucan are an MMA club, Not a BJJ club..

Sid_Justice

Niall Keane wrote: »

BJJ is simply young;

surely using your logic, in Brazil the belt system should be an obsolete way to determine skill level because it's been there ~100 years. As far as I know, this isnt the case and all guys that are purple brown and black are legimatelly skilled.

there are some online websites that give out the first and only the first belt based on corresponance courses, it doesn't overly effect standards in general.

Sid_Justice

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

Are you sure you're remembering what happened correctly. There were investigations, based on experience levels and grades of those involved. It's all been worked out now as far as I know and one of their guys is fighting on cowzerp's show for the 2nd time next month.

cletus

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

@ Enjoy Choke

I think the point Niall was trying to make is that BJJ is relatively new to the scence and political cliques and rifts havent had a chance to divide the community, as has happened in other martial arts.

But it has. there is already a pretty mojor rift between GJJ and BJJ. This hasn't overly affected the quality of bjj though, as you still have to get on the mats.

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

As for Bjj not becoming infected, it's already too late mate. I'm sure you can name at least one club in this country where grades are not considered as good as other clubs.
Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

I think this is quite simply answered. The bjj community in Ireland is pretty small when compared, for instance, to TKD. Most legit people know, or at least know of each other, so if a new name comes on the scene that people dont recognise, people tend to be wary. This in itself can help prevent the "rot" that people are talking about

And so the cycle continues down the decades – Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ......

As for Niall's quote above, even though I tend to agree with your posts (when I can work through them ), I would argue that the cycle you spoke about hasn't happened to judo, Muay Thai or bjj.

This is what I was saying in a previous post. If enough of the practitioners of a martial art drift from what it was, then this new thing it becomes is, essentially, now that ma. When you speak of tai chi, Niall, you openly admit that the majority of what is now practiced is basically dance, so, at least to a lay person, tai chi is what it is now, rather than what it once was, ie ritualised dance.

The difference with judo, bjj, muay thai is that practitioners dont engage in a "my master can beat your master" type of debate, nor do they discuss who has "the real" art. They simply compete.

A perfect example of the above was the thread about the gracie combatives course, and whether a blue belt in that system should compete at blue bel level in competition. The answer came down to "get in and compete and you'll find out soon enough where you are"

cowzerp

Sid_Justice wrote: »

It's all been worked out now as far as I know and one of their guys is fighting on cowzerp's show for the 2nd time next month.

5 of there lads are on the show, 1 was on last time, as far as been legit getting in to compete is the number 1 way of proving your not a fake, win or lose shows your willing to put it out there, they did amd are doing that.

Niall Keane

Quote:
And so the cycle continues down the decades – Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ......
As for Niall's quote above, even though I tend to agree with your posts (when I can work through them ), I would argue that the cycle you spoke about hasn't happened to judo, Muay Thai or bjj.

To clarify, I am not saying these arts have rotted, for one thing Muay Thai has no belt system, and seems therefore like boxing etc. to be resistant to the “respect my rank” virus, I mention these only in the context as arts that have at one time or another being seen by the masses in the martial arts community as being the next big thing, the holy grail of martial art, and while they all have virtue when you actually practice them, you will not by simply setting foot in, or even taking a 6 week course in one of their gyms become Bruce “I’m hard” Lee. Unless of course you mean by that becoming a martial arts actor, although the arts are not responsible for that?

All I was saying was that every ten years or so some art is marketed as superior and many times in the past their popularity has been generated by film stars (Sean Connery and Judo), (Bruce Lee and Kung Fu), (Van Dam and Kickboxing and Muay Thai), and so begin to appeal to those looking to fulfil their fantasies and for a shortcut to do so. Yes they existed before the film stars, but as such were underground to an extent, and therefore “fighting” to establish relevance.

BJJ has like many of today’s popular music of course enjoyed a unique development - YouTube, the mass access to the internet etc. so a martial artist Gracie has actually managed almost alone to reach into the main stream of popular culture. I know Gracie can walk the walk, and has skills to teach, and guys who have fought at international level like him probably have similar levels of skill, but what of the local high-school black belts, you know Johnny the lad who has had 8 regional fights and therefore qualified, he might be the best guy ever in the whole village! Is his black belt the same as Gracies? Is the one he’ll hand out in ten years going to be the same? If he has never reached the bar in international fighting how can he assess such, how can he recognize it? Now I don’t think this has happened yet in BJJ, I think correct me if I’m wrong that there still exists a tight hold of who can award such “honours” and so quality is maintained for the moment, but Judo is older and bigger, can Judo Black Belts only be handed out by Olympic champions? I don’t think this is a requirement, but people have mentioned a difference in skill between BJJ and Judo Blackbelts, could this be why?

Before Yang Cheng Fu, grandson of the famous fighter taught in mass, Wudang Nei Jia (Tai chi) was considered only as an effective martial art. Once the hippies took over and started handing out “teaching certificates” and setting up associations the “general” quality of what was being taught as tai chi chuan nose-dived. Why?

I believe that when the fallacy of a short cut is exposed to the masses, ie, not having to train hard but to use instead a magic sword, and especially when the new tricks and strategies of the once new art have become assimilated into general martial arts practice so supprise is llost, the process begins again. The process being fantasists reluctant to get hurt or even sweat a little seeking an easy way to be recognized amongst their peers as fighters.

This sickness is not inherent in the art itself, but when such persons gather in numbers and are given artificial hierarchy (bowing to cotton rather than physical belts) you set up a platform that allows the tyranny of the weak to dominate the strong. On an organizational level cliques form to prevent new better (disruptive) individuals from taking over their business. It’s human nature. This is what has happened in the past, again and again and again. Is it not what MMA reacted against?

And that is what my point amounts to. Belt systems allow artificial hierarchy to be established, and worst of all maintained, I haven’t heard of a demotion? Can you lose your black belt if a blue belt taps you out? I don’t believe that they are necessary to teach martial arts, many successful arts don’t have them, nor to organize competitions, Boxing, Muay Thai, Sanshou, MMA don’t seem to need them?

Now I don’t know the structure of the systems thatt use them, and maybe they are genuinely useful to teach a structured syllabus? So I don’t write them off completely, but they do to me at least seem more a danger than a safeguard?

Doug Cartel

Niall, the difference in skill levels between a BJJ black belt and a Judo black belt was explained earlier. In short, it doesn't make sense to directly compare the two, so please don't use that comparison to try and claim things are getting watered down.

Sid_Justice

People that think MMA is just the next passing fad (kickboxing) are severely mistaken.

cletus

Niall, to reply in short to your post, leaving aside muay thai as it has no belt structure, I can be pretty certain that if i spar a judo black belt, i will be thrown on my head, if i roll with a bjj black belt i will be tapped out, however the same doesn't hold true of high grades in kung fu, karate tkd and myriad other styles.

Obviously every black belt in judo or bjj cannot be a world champion, its impossible, but through competition with other bb's who compete, the level is maintained

Niall Keane

Doug,

Were there always so many belt colours and Dan levels? Why were they introduced?

Do not Judo and BJJ have the same root? If so, somewhere along the way someone decided that in one art BB = o.k. and in another it meant expert. I am talking about the devolution of quality in martial arts over time and its relationship to establishing artificial hierarchies.

Either a BB was originally expert or someone started handing them out like smarties so Dan levels needed to be invented to centrally control, regulate the “experts” demoting them to practitioners. And therefore we are talking about the corruption of money, or selling honours.

Alternatively, perhaps BB just meant practitioner and the Brazilians weren’t into being seen as experts, but why would they use any belt then? A coloured belt is not a subtle item of clothing, it makes a statement.

SBG Ireland

i would tend to agree with niall regarding the 'bjj is young' part. i've been training around 12 years and notice a big difference between the standard of the lower belts then and now....but and its a HUGE BUT....as a ground grappling art it will always maintain its effectiveness because of 'the roll'.

if someone wearing a purple belt or above cannot easily control an unskilled opponent (of similar age/weight) in a ground grappling match then they can immediately call bull****.

but of course its not the style that matters....or the 'man'.....only one thing will decide if its effective or not.....the training methods!

if you train with compliance and doing kata routines....then you will end up very good at kata routines and looking cool on compliant partners....

if you train with Aliveness (or whatever you want to call it) then you will end up doing something that resembles boxing/thai/kickboxing/wrestling/bjj or some combination of the combat arts....and be able to work with resisting opponents.

...but ive only been saying that for about 8yrs on forums now

Niall Keane

Niall, to reply in short to your post, leaving aside Muay Thai as it has no belt structure, I can be pretty certain that if I spar a judo black belt, I will be thrown on my head, if I roll with a bjj black belt I will be tapped out, however the same doesn't hold true of high grades in kung fu, karate tkd and myriad other styles.

Obviously every black belt in judo or bjj cannot be a world champion, its impossible, but through competition with other bb's who compete, the level is maintained

There are a few unfounded generalizations there; you have painted all of one side as capable and the other as not.

BTW Chinese martial arts never had belt structures, these were borrowed from the Japanese and added by some systems a cynic might say in order to make money, high level kung fu does exist, and always has competed in a format called Lei Tai, sanshou and shuai Jaio. Likewise I have as many know been around the block a bit and have wrestled with a few Judo Blackbelts, there was a similar approach to some signature techniques they tried, but never could I say an equality of skill, some certainly would be able to take down the average guy others would struggle, at least that was my experience, I know subjective?

I hear what you are saying about most “trad” styles but really what you are referring to are the bullshido trad styles, the ones already watered down. I know, I’ve sparred with some of these guys too and at times felt as though I was in the ring with someone with a physical disability. They at first, so they tell me much later, really believe that they had skills, because they have been awarded a mark of such that they believe in - a black belt Dan level whatever. When you inquire further you find that the guy who awarded them likewise is martially handicapped, and so on. Generations playing at unworkable techniques.

Without control mechanisms such as competition I feel that it is inevitable. And if this is necessary for a belt qualification then at least there is some control in place and that’s something. But the control mechanism can also degrade. A local competition is not the same as an international. I take your point about mixing with international fighters and that is ok, but not the same as taking part (ask them) but at least it does allow exposure to quality. If say you must win 10 fights to be a BB, doing so in regional’s might be a bit quicker than doing so in the Pan-American?

but of course its not the style that matters....or the 'man'.....only one thing will decide if its effective or not.....the training methods!

The training methods should be the essence of the style. Form is how we express our martial technique, how we shape ourselves dynamically to break and create structure. If we have a peculiar way of doing things thats different or unusual this gets noticed and we have a style no? BJJ and ground fighting, but then rolling is a big part of it? Muay Thai and standing combinations and striking from the clinch, so they spend allot of time in front of the heavy bag? Real Tai Chi and moving and adhering, allot trained with appropriate wrestling and striking drills. Some run through these drills some participate, just like some tap at heavy bags, not considering their guard, wasting their time.

So I agree SBG, ability comes down to training methods, and where it is lacking I would say you have an undeserving hierarchy of people in place who have taken over and can no longer teach the training methods that made the style effective. Tyranny of the weak?

SBG Ireland

sorry niall but i can rarely follow anything you say....you have to understand im quite stupid!

this short video explains what i mean by our training methods best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc

OLDMAN1

nice clip,you use the word aliveness, others use other phrases, i dont have a word for it except normal,i would like to ask a question, i have heard in the past from junior grades in bjj that a black belt in bjj is better that any other black belt from a traditional martial art, as one of only 2 bjj black belts in Ireland i would be very intrested in hearing your opinion on the subject.are you better than any other black belt in the country, this is a geuine question and i hope that you take it that way, Tony....

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

Do not Judo and BJJ have the same root? If so, somewhere along the way someone decided that in one art BB = o.k. and in another it meant expert. I am talking about the devolution of quality in martial arts over time and its relationship to establishing artificial hierarchies.

I can give you the temperature in Celsius or Fahrenheit, but it won't change how warm it is outside. BJJ and judo use a different scale, you can't use that to say one has become more diluted than the other.

cletus

Niall Keane wrote: »

There are a few unfounded generalizations there; you have painted all of one side as capable and the other as not.

Yes, i speak in generalities, because we are talking about a broad spectrum of people.

I'm not painting any side as incapable, simply that judo and bjj bb's are all very solid at their art, some are just that, some are world beaters, but all would be considered good at what they do

TKD blackbelts, for example, in my experience vary wildly from excellent to apalling, with some of the blackbelts I've sparred verging on completely useless

Considering you have experience of various judo bb's, can you say that, even though some are better than others at the same level, that any of them are fundamentally bad at what they do

yomchi

cletus wrote: »

Niall, to reply in short to your post, leaving aside muay thai as it has no belt structure, I can be pretty certain that if i spar a judo black belt, i will be thrown on my head, if i roll with a bjj black belt i will be tapped out, however the same doesn't hold true of high grades in kung fu, karate tkd and myriad other styles.

Obviously every black belt in judo or bjj cannot be a world champion, its impossible, but through competition with other bb's who compete, the level is maintained

Wild generalisation there Cletus, you fight any BB worth there salt at their own rules and your destined to be beaten by them.

yomchi

TKD blackbelts, for example, in my experience vary wildly from excellent to apalling, with some of the blackbelts I've sparred verging on completely useless

Yep ok, agree with you now

da-bres

yomchi wrote: »

Wild generalisation there Cletus, you fight any BB worth there salt at their own rules and your destined to be beaten by them.

Il never forget watching my 16 year old mate in school about 75 kg, a green tag in tae kwon do, kicking the crap out of a '5th' degree black belt instructor in the art.

Some BB's are just that level because they never missed a grading, paid there money, did there couple kicks, got there certs.

If you have ever sparred with a BJJ Black Belt You would know the skill level is through the roof! Mainly because, as JK mentioned, 5000 hours on average of training go into developing a BJJ Black belt.

Now imagine if you trained 5 hours a week in tae kwon do, it would be the equivalent of around 19 years of training to get your black belt.

As well as that most serious BJJ athletes are obsessed with BJJ:o

Niall Keane

Doug, to me as someone outside of belt culture and given the common origin of such arts it seems less like different scales imperial and metric and more like someone along the way for political concerns has voted to agree that water freezes at a different temperature for their organisation. My point is that if you follow the curve you eventually end up in a mcdojo. It may take a couple of hundred years. It a process!

Niall Keane

I agree the judo blackbelts had skill they weren't useless like other dans but every Thai boxer I fought was also skilled, and didn't need a belt. I think belt culture exposes an art to risk fundamentally it establishes a permanent irreversable heirarchy. If you get a nut case oldman resting on his laurels that takes you down the wrong route some will resist and split and some will follow and so arts are diluted and the rot sets in. seems inevitable to me?

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

Doug, to me as someone outside of belt culture and given the common origin of such arts it seems less like different scales imperial and metric and more like someone along the way for political concerns has voted to agree that water freezes at a different temperature for their organisation. My point is that if you follow the curve you eventually end up in a mcdojo. It may take a couple of hundred years. It a process!

People within judo wouldn't hold one of their own with first dan black belt in the same regard as people in BJJ would hold one of theirs. You'd have to get up to probably fourth dan to get the same level of kudos.

SBG Ireland

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

nice clip,you use the word aliveness, others use other phrases, i dont have a word for it except normal.

yes thats why i said

if you train with Aliveness (or whatever you want to call it)

to people coming from combat sports like boxing, wrestling etc when you explain aliveness to them they go 'duh well of course you train that way!'. to people coming from martial arts with no sparring/competitive element it can be a break through. i know this to be true because ive seen it happen hundreds of times over the last few years ive been teaching. ive had guys with 4, 5 and 6th dans and +15-20yrs training find it mind blowing when they learn how to drill correctly with 'progressive resistance'.

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

are you better than any other black belt in the country, this is a geuine question and i hope that you take it that way, Tony....

better at what? at BJJ i would hope so....at TKD etc i wouldnt have the first clue

SBG Ireland

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

a black belt in bjj is better that any other black belt from a traditional martial art

also define 'traditional martial art' for me

Ug Lee

John,
You have been away for too long. This is one of the best threads in years.

SBG Ireland

back for a while anyway

OLDMAN1

thank you for anwsering my question in the spirit it was asked

SBG Ireland wrote: »

also define 'traditional martial art' for me

on the subject of what is a traditional martial art, well a lot of people here use traditional to describe a martial art in a less than flattering light, which is a pity because i believe that BJJ is a traditional martial art, but im open to correction if im wrong...

SBG Ireland

you're welcome

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

which is a pity because i believe that BJJ is a traditional martial art, but im open to correction if im wrong...

you didnt answer my question

also define 'traditional martial art' for me

Cork24

I'll be doing Judo since 2000, now 10 years on am i a black Belt? No, Far from it, i Started when i was about 15 i am no 25. why am i not,

was in the Cork Judo Club which was based down by the Train Station they Moved to the Kung Fu academy which was across the river from the opera house then after a while they closed.

UCC were the only club in town and as i was only 16 i couldnt pass off as a Student. then new clubs opened up one that was in the South Side and a newer one in the North side of Cork. which i went alot. now i just come and go maybe train 3 times then dont go for about 2months. go back down once and dont show up till 6weeks, i keep telling my self this is the year your going to go for your black belt!. but that never happens. got it into my head one stage i'll do judo 4times a week, in 2 clubs. but thats not going to happen.


were people are saying BJJ & judo with belt System, you cant saw one is easier then the other, in BJJ you dont fight for you belt in Judo you do.

Alot of BJJ guys were going into judo matchs and all they were doing is going for the legs and pull the other person down, and work on the ground, so the IJA change the Rule to Judo and you cant left the other person leg with your hands etc. stop alot of BJJ going to judo Opens.

cletus

I actually thought the rule change was to try and distance judo as much as possible from the other Olympic grappling art, wrestling

Could be i'm wrong, it happened that one other time

yomchi

SBG Ireland wrote: »

better at what? at BJJ i would hope so....at TKD etc i wouldnt have the first clue

Beginners classes this September

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

you're welcome



you didnt answer my question

i had to think about that one , but simply a martial arts system that has a history behind it...

Niall Keane

but of course its not the style that matters....or the 'man'.....only one thing will decide if its effective or not.....the training methods!
The training methods should be the essence of the style. Form is how we express our martial technique, how we shape ourselves dynamically to break and create structure. If we have a peculiar way of doing things thats different or unusual this gets noticed and we have a style no? BJJ and ground fighting, but then rolling is a big part of it? Muay Thai and standing combinations and striking from the clinch, so they spend allot of time in front of the heavy bag? Real Tai Chi and moving and adhering, allot trained with appropriate wrestling and striking drills. Some run through these drills some participate, just like some tap at heavy bags, not considering their guard, wasting their time.

So I agree SBG, ability comes down to training methods, and where it is lacking I would say you have an undeserving hierarchy of people in place who have taken over and can no longer teach the training methods that made the style effective. Tyranny of the weak?

sorry niall but i can rarely follow anything you say....you have to understand im quite stupid!

this short video explains what i mean by our training methods best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc

SBG, really here I’m saying that traditional martial arts in their original form do this “alive” training. How do I know? From my perspective I can only relate to Traditional Tai Chi Chuan.

Traditional defines the older styles, as opposed to modern wushu which was compiled by China to combine the “flashy” moves from various styles, exaggerate them and set them in routines, and there are no drills, neither sparring nor wrestling within wushu. Just clearing up what I mean by traditional and modern.

I digress, so how do I know? Well we are lucky that some past masters stretching back to 1750 have left us writings on strategy, training methods etc. These have become known as the Tai Chi classics, all stress practice:

e.g. “practice as though there is an enemy before you, so that you can fight as if no one is before you”, “Ceaseless exertion is the method of self cultivation”, “we cannot suddenly become expert, we practice technique in order to acquire principle, and once we have acquired principle we can abandon technique”

There are tomes of this stuff, also I have in my possession video footage from 1957, with Cheng Tin hung and his students in a park knocking seven shades of s@”t out of each other, drilling, practicing isolated techniques and sparring. Form was used to warm up and down and for private solo practice. I didn’t get to see this video until a few years ago; a Canadian gentleman old student of CTH had it and issued it out to Dan Docherty. What surprised me was the almost identical method of training.

There also exists writings from CTH from 1947 where he speaks of his master Qi Min Quan, and describes his training, “the master would attack me with various methods and expect me to attack him back with Tai Chi Chuan techniques”.

This all seems pretty “alive” to me, so the question then remains, what the hell happened to the other stuff that became a dance in the park?

Why is form one of only five elements of Tai Chi Chuan the only thing now taught by many? Alone it is useless. It improves dynamic changes in structure, awareness of strengths and weakness along movements, and strategic possibilities, recovery and counter techniques, but only if the person practicing the form understands these possibilities, i.e. has engaged in fighting using the techniques.

In other words it’s pretty high level stuff, and not much use to average Joe, but Average Joe should get to know it at first it will heal and limber him up, later it will communicate with him.

From looking at martial arts magazines from the 60’s and 70’s its obvious everyone was fixated with discovering the “supreme” martial art, “your kung fu is no match….” SO my guess is that western instructors started peddling these “secrets” i.e. stuff left for competent fighters, not beginners, and so bastardised “traditional styles” were left in the west with loads of flashy esoteric nonsense without any foundation. The “aliveness” was skipped over for the subtlety. But crude hands can never be subtle. Is it a fault of the art? I would say such practices are not the art.

If people sought out results this could not have happened, the fools playing at mastery would quickly be demonstrated to be devoid of martial virtue. This is what MMA brought to bear in the 90’s, a long overdue ass kicking. SO we must then examine the structures the existed to allow the weak to lead and determine the practices within these “traditional” organizations. Inevitably we find an “honour” structure based on years spent in service and kowtowing rather than a hierarchy based upon fighting achievements. To me I feel that a belt structure encourages this progression, maybe I’m wrong, I hope so, it’s a case of: “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”

SBG Ireland

yomchi wrote: »

Beginners classes this September

ive enough on my plate without trying to learn TKD too....but thanks!

SBG Ireland

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i had to think about that one , but simply a martial arts system that has a history behind it...

as opposed to one that just popped into existence?

could you name a 'modern' (i presume thats the opposite of traditional?) martial art that doesnt have a history behind it?

EnjoyChoke

SBG Ireland wrote: »

i would tend to agree with niall regarding the 'bjj is young' part. i've been training around 12 years and notice a big difference between the standard of the lower belts then and now....

Do you think the standard of lower grades in BJJ is worse now than it was 12 years ago?

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

as opposed to one that just popped into existence?

could you name a 'modern' (i presume thats the opposite of traditional?) martial art that doesnt have a history behind it?

all modern martial arts have roots in traditional arts , the ones that jump to mind as modern would be krav maga and some of the urban combat styles. i have no problem with them but then again when i see wooden m16 rifles being brought into a krav maga class i do wondor.

i could be taking this the wrong way when you ask me to define a traditional martial arts: are you trying to get me to say a static system that stays the same as it was 300 or 400 years ago and does not elvove, if you are i cant say that as all systems have to elvove and not be STUCK in the past , just for the sake of it...

pablohoney87

cletus wrote: »

I actually thought the rule change was to try and distance judo as much as possible from the other Olympic grappling art, wrestling

Could be i'm wrong, it happened that one other time

That was the main reason they quoted but i think most people believe it was to make judo more "watchable" to a non judoka. Since they banned techniques where you cant attack below the waist with your upperbody it should stop "negative" judo i.e. two guys hunched over trying to break each others balance and not fighting for grips.
With the ruling i think they hope it will make the pace of a match faster and see more wins by ippon and big throws. Absolutely nothing to do with keeping BJJ guys away from the sport.

OLDMAN1

pablohoney87 wrote: »

That was the main reason they quoted but i think most people believe it was to make judo more "watchable" to a non judoka. Since they banned techniques where you cant attack below the waist with your upperbody it should stop "negative" judo i.e. two guys hunched over trying to break each others balance and not fighting for grips.
With the ruling i think they hope it will make the pace of a match faster and see more wins by ippon and big throws. Absolutely nothing to do with keeping BJJ guys away from the sport.

i think the new rules are a mistake, i beleive with the new rules you are aloud to attack the legs with the arms as long as it the second attack, not the first, i was talking to a couple of people that are high up in the judo assocation and they said that it was to stop all none judo wrestlers, it had nothing to do with bjj

Doug Cartel

Another reason for banning leg grabs that I heard, was to stop people using stupid, never-gonna-work dives to the legs simply to give the impression of attacking.

In judo you get penalised for not attacking, but with the way the other rules are set up, you can quite safely go for doubles and singles without worrying about a counter attack. So if you want to stall out after getting a points advantage, constant diving at the legs used to be an OK tactic.

Personally I think they could have solved it better, either by telling the refs to be more strict about what constitutes an attack (no kuzushi, no attack) or by giving more time on the ground so getting sprawled and flipped/choked becomes a bigger threat.

cletus

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i could be taking this the wrong way when you ask me to define a traditional martial arts: are you trying to get me to say a static system that stays the same as it was 300 or 400 years ago and does not elvove, if you are i cant say that as all systems have to elvove and not be STUCK in the past , just for the sake of it...

Quick question, are there actually any martial arts that have verifiable 300 or 400 year histories

pablohoney87

cletus wrote: »

Quick question, are there actually any martial arts that have verifiable 300 or 400 year histories

If your talking about the art/style then yes. Silat and kung fu date back that far im fairly sure. If your talking about the system of a martial art itself I dont think so.

Niall Keane

Quick question, are there actually any martial arts that have verifiable 300 or 400 year histories

I'm not doing the work on this to prove it on boards, there are books available on the subject.

But off hand..

Chen Paoi Chui (Cannon Punch) (their tai chi is more controversial) can be documented back to the 1600’s; Chang Nai Zhou's "Cotton Boxing" from mid 18 century is mentioned in local gazettes and still practiced in his family’s village. 37 Styles is recorded again by the Chinese bureaucracy of the day back to 1750’s. Wang Lan Ting 1750’s crops up in documents.

The earliest reference to Nei Jia (Wudang) martial arts is on the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan (1669), this too mentions Chang San Feng 13th century. So too General Qi Jiguang's Quan Jing (Classic of Boxing) 1560’s was a set of boxing movements by absorbing 32 postures from 16 famous folk boxing styles. Some of these still exist “Yang Family Spear” etc.

Basically there is extensive study of the origins of Chinese Kung Fu styles, and many collaborating documents and headstones etc. not to mention the rich oral traditions that concur with each other from sources separated for centuries. It goes way back, for me though whats interesting are the documents written by the likes of Chang Nai Zhou and Wang Tseuh Yeuh that speak of fighting strategies and methods of developing skills. All of these guys travelled around testing themselves. Lei Tai was the method of the day, a format where all could “cross hands”. Chang mentions his influences, and his “many teachers”, General Qi perhaps writes the first recorded piece on MMA. You’ll find nothing new under the sun, but it can lead to only one conclusion that what worked in the past did so for the same reason stuff that works today does, as SBG wrote proper training methods. They are the essence of a style, without them there is no life in it. And as I mentioned constant testing of the substance is also required. This is the only way to prevent delusion and ensure a “Zhen Chuan” – true transmission. Anything that allows those not capable of absorbing and understanding an art to become directors of such diminishes the said art, so Thai or Western Boxing for example doesn’t suffer this, students look to study with those with impressive fighting and coaching achievements, not certificates or belts.

Damo W

cletus wrote: »

Quick question, are there actually any martial arts that have verifiable 300 or 400 year histories

Indian Martial Arts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_martial_arts

Would Kuydo meet the requirements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABd%C5%8D, while it is a modern martial art it has a significant history e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamoto_no_Tametomo

I believe there are others.

Niall Keane

Cletus,

It dawns on me that you may be referring to an actual style within a style so as to speak, i.e. a lineage?

If so I can speak only for my own.

I was taught by Dan Docherty, you can find me mentioned by Dan in publications, and I’ll be found on most pages of his book “Decoding the classics for the modern martial artist”

Dan in turn was Chang Tin Hung’s best student, this is mentioned and Dan turns up on the pages of Cheng’s books too.

Cheng Tin Hung in turn states that his main teacher was Qi Min Quan, of whom we have no record, save that he also learned from Wu Jian Quan, though he told CTH his main teacher was Ching Yi who was taught by Wang Lan Ting best student of Yang Lu Chan. Qi’s family were killed in the Japanese invasion of China, it was a chaotic time. However Eddie Wu current Gate Keeper of the famous Wu style acknowledged in 1990 in an Interview with Kung Fu magazine that Cheng Tin Hung was at one time gate keeper of Wu style, Cheng had studied Wu style under his uncle. So now we can abandon the lineage through Wang Lan ting – Ching Yi and Qi Min Quan, and relax into the Wu style which is very well documented back through Wu Jain Quan to Quan Yu student of Yang Lu Chan. Yang it is documented learned from Chen Chang-xing (1771-1853) around 1820-30.

Now we are in controversial territory, the Chens say that their ancestor Chen Wang-Ting (1600-1680) invented Tai Chi Chuan, others say that what Wang-Ting taught was paoi chui (cannon punch) and that Chen Chang-xing learned tai chi chuan from Chang-Fa who learned from Wang Zongyue 1750s, stretching back through various Daoists to Chang San Feng 13th Century.
So I can safely trace back a documented lineage to 1750, then depending on which line we follow the documented trail stops around 1750 with Wang Zongyue or 1650 with Chen Wang-Ting.

Hence you can imagine my frustration on here when people make statements about traditional martial arts, when they’ve probably never come across the real deal. How many of the aforementioned useless traditional dans for example can through accepted and verified documents trace their own art (themselves and each person personally, not the main sensei / sifu they or their teacher met once) back to 1750? Yet this is what people judge traditional martial arts to be? It is a double edged sword as many high level Dans and Sifus have openly stated what Dan Docherty and I do isn’t Tai Chi because it looks like “just” “punching, kicking and throwing”!

See all it takes is time to drown out the real kung fu (time and effort) with a million brand affiliated mcdojos. Maybe I should bring an action against all those waving their arms claiming to practice Tai Chi? But you belt culture guys should watch out, after 250 + years of Tai Chi Chuan, I see what the weak given some authority can do to an art.

Damo W

Further to the comments on the earlier part of the thread...

The dan/kyu System
First established by Kano Jiroro [1860-1938], the dan/kyu system was actually based upon the handicap structure established by Honinbo Dosaku (1645-1702) as a professional ranking structure for the game of Go. Dosaku's dan ranking structure lasted until 1883 when the Hoensha (the leading organisation of Go at the time) replaced it with a kyu-ranking system. The kyu ranking structure was abandoned eleven years later due to complaints from professional players and the old system was reinstated. The accepted theory is that Judo pioneer, Kano Jigoro, established the dan/kyu ranking system based upon this history.

The First Dan Accreditations
Kano awarded the first Shodan ranks in 1883 to his two most senior students; Saito and Tomita. By 1886 the innovator required his yudansha to wear a black obi to hold their practice kimono closed. Kendo supported Kano's dan/kyu system by awarding their first shodan ranks in 1883. Later, in 1907, Kano formally introduced the official practice uniform and modern-style belt. The idea of different coloured belts, representing various kyu grades, was not developed until the mid-1930's by Kano's student, Kaiwashi Mikonosuke, who was sent to France to teach judo. By 1908 Kendo's curriculum had completely standardized as had their ranking structure. Based upon Kano's dan/kyu system it was successfully introduced into Tokyo's school system. By 1917, and with the support of the Monbusho [Ministry of Education] and the *Dai Nippon Butokukai [DNBK], Kano's dan/kyu system [employing 10 dans and 6 kyus] became the national standard used throughout Japanese Budo.

[I remember reading somewhere that early swimming competitions did not split competitors into their respective categories but used to tie a ribbon around their waist to denote category, this possibly sparked the idea of coloured belts.]

Niall Keane

Thanks Damo,

that's very interesting, so it would suggest that like golf you have a handicap allowance, so in competition a BB would need to score say six times against a beginner to draw even? 6 kyu?

That sounds like a good way of organising competitions to encourage a BB not to get lazy, simply "holding down the pillow" and likewise a progressing beginner not to feel useless, if they compete together?

SBG Ireland

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

all modern martial arts have roots in traditional arts , the ones that jump to mind as modern would be krav maga and some of the urban combat styles. i have no problem with them but then again when i see wooden m16 rifles being brought into a krav maga class i do wondor.

ah the 'tear the eyes out' RBSD styles

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i could be taking this the wrong way when you ask me to define a traditional martial arts: are you trying to get me to say a static system that stays the same as it was 300 or 400 years ago and does not elvove, if you are i cant say that as all systems have to elvove and not be STUCK in the past , just for the sake of it...

why would i be trying to get you to say anything? just looking for your definition of TMA. by the definition you gave all i train is traditional martial arts