Stage 15 - Monday, July 19 2010, Pamiers - Bagnères-de-Luchon, 187 km

kennyb3

You can beat the wife and kids but you cant beat a bit of controvesy:)

davyjose

NickDrake wrote: »

If you look at it again Contador attacks when he see Andy has stopped. Attacks hard then easies up slightly but not much. Knew well what he was at.

He did attack. Whether it was right or wrong is another issue. either way he went for it and got his yellow

As someone quite clearly pointed out, he could have eased up on the 20km descent. He took advantage of Schlecks misfortune, end of.

Whether he was right to, or not, is a matter of taste. I think the man has no class.

dastardly00

Nightmare result for Nico, he lost a lot of time. Why the hell did Gadret not drop back and help him???

Stephen Roche (on Eurosport) is not happy that Gadret didn't come back to help!!

Lumen

In my view if it's not dangerous then it's OK.

The TdF is a team event. That includes the mechanics, equipment suppliers, chefs, everything. If Albert got food poisoning should Andy spend a day on the toilet to allow him to catch up?

NickDrake

dastardly00 wrote: »

Nightmare result for Nico, he lost a lot of time. Why the hell did Gadret not drop back and help him???

He even attacked . Madness really. Not a team player. Pretty disgraceful really

on_the_nickel

davyjose wrote: »

As someone quite clearly pointed out, he could have eased up on the 20km descent. He took advantage of Schlecks misfortune, end of.

Whether he was right to, or not, is a matter of taste. I think the man has no class.

Well he couldnt ease up on the descent, or else he was letting Menchov and Sanchez take time on him.

My opinion is that he knew Schleck had a mechanical, no question. What makes it less clear is that Schleck dropped his chain while trying to attack Contador. That certainly clouds the issue, it's not clear cut as to whether one should follow the unwritten rule about waiting if the MJ has a mechanical in the case where the MJ is attacking you.

IM0

Liamo08 wrote: »

Sorry, I mean was the incident similar, sounded like it from the commentary? I seem to remember Ulrich being praised for waiting at the time.

Ha! I was thinking of the 'descent' one not the one you obviosly meant, sorry

so it was a 'similar' but totally different, one armstrong was knocked off the bike by a spectator, in this one andy is to blame all by himself cross chaining and dropping his chain






let me just say I dont care who wins the tour :pac:

ednwireland

Lumen wrote: »

In my view if it's not dangerous then it's OK.

The TdF is a team event. That includes the mechanics, equipment suppliers, chefs, everything. If Albert got food poisoning should Andy spend a day on the toilet to allow him to catch up?

+1 agree totally, if he had a teammate with him could have swapped bikes quicker than dropping the chain twice

looks like the poll disagrees with me

kenmc

davyjose wrote: »

He quite clearly jumped past Schleck - he was a few bike lengths behind and wasn't really responding to schleck's attack.

I don't get it, either way he should have waited. Just because Schleck attacks, he's fair game? That makes no sense, tbh. None of the greats like Merckx, Indurain, The badger, would have jumped on a rider's misfortune like that. Never.

Of course he's fair game - he threw down a gauntlet, Contador responded, unfortunately Schleck also threw down his sword with the gauntlet. Pretty stupid thing to do. Now if they were all just ambling along and his chain came off, then defo bertie should have waited.

Put it this way - think back to your school days - if someone in the playground challenged you to a race, and then started moaning about their lace coming undone would you wait for them? Same thing.

kenmc

davyjose wrote: »

As someone quite clearly pointed out, he could have eased up on the 20km descent. He took advantage of Schlecks misfortune, end of.

No he couldn't Sanchez is in 3rd place and was driving hard down the mountain.

Leroy42

Voted no in the poll, but I really don't think that he had much choice. Once he went past the dye was cast, as both Menchov and Sanchez were there as well. He couldn't hold back and let them have more time on him.

Trying to be fair to Bertie, I doubt he know what was happening as he went past. Andy had defo dropped him, it was Vino trying to get up to him, so probably Bertie was just happy to get back. Once he was ahead I think he 'thought' about waiting, but didn't exactly demand it for the others.

It is not his fault that Andy messed up, just as it's not anybody's fault about Nico's puncture.

I do agree that this won't do much for berties standing, I don't think he has much class, but then it's the TdF, not some Lord Farquar finishing schoool!

c0rk3r

I couldn't' really understand Roches perspective until he made reference to his own tour De France win under similar circumstances. So his opinion is kinda void.

Lumen

Diego Maradona. Thierry Henry. County Meath. Albert Contador.

Will it never end?

nerraw1111

Lumen wrote: »

In my view if it's not dangerous then it's OK.

The TdF is a team event. That includes the mechanics, equipment suppliers, chefs, everything. If Albert got food poisoning should Andy spend a day on the toilet to allow him to catch up?

Food poisoning versus a ten second mechanical fvck up? Not really a fair comparison.

Its easy to come up with an exaggerated scenario that is vaguely similar.

Point is should AC have wait? Not sure myself but AC didn't 'win' the lead today rather Shleck lost it to bad luck/own fault

Guybrush T

Lumen wrote: »

Diego Maradona. Thierry Henry. County Meath. Albert Contador.

Will it never end?

What? why is that in the list??

DirkVoodoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8WbAd0oAkc

My guess.

davyjose

Guybrush T wrote: »

What? why is that in the list??

Seriously?

ednwireland

fighting talk from schleck

"It's not up to me to decide if it was fair or not, but I wouldn't have raced like that," said a seething Schleck after the finish, having already surrendered his yellow jersey. "My belly is so full of anger right now ... I'm going to want to get my revenge."

i am looking forward to seeing that

and BS there if he had been sat there with sanchez and menchov he would have done the same

Guybrush T

davyjose wrote: »

Seriously?

No, trying to be too subtle for the intertubes, see my location

DirkVoodoo

Like I said, this sets up a tour of classic proportions and not "Oh, Contador beat him by 2 minutes in the TT, hard luck".

No more chipping away for a few seconds here and there, it's time to stand up to the plate.

Lumen

Inquitus wrote: »

Contador's devoid of any class whatsoever, a drug cheat, and an unsporting one at that.

kenmc wrote: »

Indeed? Please point me in the direction of a sporting drug cheat. I would like to see what such a monster looks like.

edit: moved here, with responses.

Sorry Ken, you're collateral damage.

furiousox

Tweet from Robbie Hunter (Garmin rider so we know his eyesight is 20/20!)

"From a person who rides in the peleton..Contador should have waited,had he waited everybody would have waited..my opinion this was not cool!"

Anyway tomorrow should be epic, can't wait

dave2pvd

FWIW, I don't think Gadret should have waited. Ag2r now have 17th and 19th on GC. Gadret is a decent climber. He'll do well in the Pyrenees. Possibly better than Roche. Still, 2 riders in the late teens is not much to write home about. Perhaps the strategy is to contest the team competition?

barrabus

Perspective from the guardian website...

"Remember Stage Three on the cobbles when a split in the field due to a crash held up Contador?" he asks. "Andy Schleck, by way of his team's powerhouse, Fabian Cancellara put the foot down and took big time out of Contador which is what has Schleck in yellow in the first place. So I've no problem with Contador putting the foot down. If it had been an unavoidable crash caused by a fan or something, I'd have expected Contador to wait, but not for a mechanical - it's a bike race."

dave2pvd

barrabus wrote: »

Perspective from the guardian website...

"Remember Stage Three on the cobbles when a split in the field due to a crash held up Contador?". "Andy Schleck, by way of his team's powerhouse, Fabian Cancellara put the foot down and took big time out of Contador which is just fine, as Contador was not wearing the Yellow Jersey"

Fixed it.

Mosiki

Contador = SCUM

Lumen

Restraint, please.

titan18

I haven't seen the stage but was it Contador who drove on the pace after Schleck's chain came off, and Menchov and Sanchez just followed Contador up the climb, or did they all attack?

Tbh, they should have waited, wasn't it only like 12 seconds at one stage,it's easy for them to sit up at that point and wait til he get's back on.Lance and Ullrich have sat up like that before for each other

DirkVoodoo

I can't believe people are so against poor old Alberto. it's a bike race, he didn't push Andy off, it was his own bike that failed him.

What happens in other racing sports when you have an equipment failure? Or your horse clips a fence, or someone's shoe falls off. It's tough luck but he had every right to make his move.

As has been pointed out, the Lance/Ullrich incident was after an unforseen crash with a spectator and a mussette, not the same as messing up your shifts when you launched an attack.

cooker3

I don't mind Contador going for it but I'd wish he wouldn't lie afterwards and claim he didn't know of the problem when he fairly blatantly did.

JacksonHeightsOwn

do be fair lads, Schleck didnt hang on when contador had a buckle in his real wheel on the cobbles stage

i dont see the big deal in it myself,

it may seem slightly "unethical", but thats the sport, sure if they waited around whenever someone needed to relax for a second, then there wouldnt be any racing

like any other sport, its swings and roundabouts

petethedrummer

I didn't see the action, how long did it take him to put his chain back on?

What are you supposed to stop for and what are you not?

nacho libre

I think Schleck might discover over the next couple of days that he has some new found friends in the peloton.

I missed the end of the race today. What did Sean Kelly say about what happened?

DirkVoodoo

When it's someone popular and the bad guy is getting away, stop.

When it's someone no one likes (or french), carry on and enjoy the race.

I think most people just don't like Contador, which is fair enough, just say so. To isolate this one incident (ok, an important incident but people have already pointed to equally damaging moments in the GC race for others) and say "foul play!", "Boo!" is a bit much.

I hate saying this, but it's like Suarez in the world cup. Everyone was quick to condemn the action (I condemn the celebration) but ANYONE in that position would have done the exact same.

If Nick Roche had attacked Schleck today I'm almost certain that everyone would be praising his good fortune and instincts for taking advantage of an opponent's mistake.

I agree it was questionable, but that's it. Condemning him as a "scumbag" or saying the win will be "tainted" is a bit much.

goldencleric

nacho libre wrote: »

I missed the end of the race today. What did Sean Kelly say about what happened?

I don't quite remember but Stephen Roche blamed Schleck for changing gears at an inappropriate time and didn't fault bert's attack ... which I disagree with completely!

And another thing from what I saw Contador attacked not Sanchez/ Menchov so he can't really say he was defending his position from them

nacho libre

chrisbonnie wrote: »

it may seem slightly "unethical", but thats the sport, sure if they waited around whenever someone needed to relax for a second, then there wouldnt be any racing

like any other sport, its swings and roundabouts

so what are you are implying is that when that Kipling poem is quoted on the vodafone ad it's just talk/empty words- the idea of fair play, decency, and honour have no place in sport. You seek to win at all costs because no one remembers a gallant loser.

nacho libre

goldencleric wrote: »

I don't quite remember but Stephen Roche blamed Schleck for changing gears at an inappropriate time and didn't fault bert's attack ... which I disagree with completely!

And another thing from what I saw Contador attacked not Sanchez/ Menchov so he can't really say he was defending his position from them

Yeah i heard what Stephen Roche said and it didn't surprise me he'd take that view.

DirkVoodoo

nacho libre wrote: »

so what are you are implying is that when that Kipling poem is quoted on the vodafone ad it's just talk/empty words- the idea of fair play, decency, and honour have no place in sport. You seek to win at all costs because no one remembers a gallant loser.

Idealistic prose has no place in professional cycling.

"What's more, if you take advantage of a mistake and power to victory with some impressive climbing and descending, you won't just be a man, you'll have the yellow jersey my son".

nacho libre

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Idealistic prose has no place in professional cycling.

"What's more, if you take advantage of a mistake and power to victory with some impressive climbing and descending, you won't just be a man, you'll have the yellow jersey my son".

I think the point is it seems to have no place in any sport;) I wonder though would Contador object to this win at all cost mentality if the situation had been reversed?

DirkVoodoo

Seeing Paolo DiCanio snatch a ball out of the air may be very sportsman like, but it's not something you expect. Similarly, I wouldn't have expected Contador to wait. And in fairness to Andy he tried to fight back and limited his losses which was great to see.

Introducing a "stopping for all mishaps" would bring cycling down the rocky and not so pave road that football inhabits, namely taking advantage of "sportsmanship" to win free kicks, waste time, etc. How many times have you seen a team in possession of the ball be almost forced by the opponents to kick it out of play when they are in an attacking position because some over-paid continental superstar is rolling around on the ground after a phantom injury? I would hate for cycling to end up like that. **** happens, you man up and move on (Serious crashes or freak incidents aside).

Chips Lovell

That's bike racing, sometimes you pay for your mistakes, sometimes you get back on.

I was watching it with the sound down. Initially I thought Schleck had attacked and popped straightaway. It took me a few seconds to realise his chain had dropped. Vino had responded straight away and by the time Schleck's chain came off Contador was already winding it up.

I'm not at all sure that Contador knew what was going on when he flew past him. It was the critical moment of the stage when everyone's going all out. I think it's very different to watching it at home on TV. Contador seemed to hesitate after a while and was looking back a lot as if he was trying to figure out what was going on, but once he found himself with Menchov and Sanchez, that was it really, he had no choice but to ride.

Schleck already got a gimme on the second stage when his teammate slowed the bunch down.

Even I know that trying to pop it into the big ring while cross-chained and attacking on a climb is asking for trouble.

c montgomery

I wouldnt be surprised if someone pushed contador off the bike tomorrow. The fans get so close it could easly be made to look like an accident.

Was contadore getting booed as he collected the yellow jersey today??

Fredo

(off topic) Is there anywhere online I can see a replay of today's stage?

Funkyzeit

Firstly a bit of perspective - in the big scheme of things Schlecks attack IMO would have made no difference in terms of Yellow in Paris.

No way he would have stayed away - he might have got to the summit ahead but with Bertie and particularly Sammy Sanchez in chase he would have got caught - even if he didn't the TT on Sat would have seen Bertie in the Maillot Jaune.

All that said I think it was the wrong call by Bertie - but probably the lesser of 2 evils compared with Cancellara's behaviour on stage 2.

Chips Lovell

Contador says he didn't know what had happened:

"We'd been marking each other and I was starting to think about attacking. I was told after I did attack that there had been an incident, but when I launched the attack I didn't have any idea about what the incident was," Contador said. "When I did find out what had happened we already had a big advantage and it was too late to do anything about it as we were all riding hard."

davyjose wrote: »

None of the greats like Merckx, Indurain, The badger, would have jumped on a rider's misfortune like that. Never.

Asked for their opinion on the incident, Laurent Jalabert, Bernard Thévenet and Bernard Hinault all described Schleck's incident as an inescapable part of racing and said they were looking ahead to see how Contador and Schleck will respond.

Chips Lovell

Riis offers his opinion:

To the thorny question of whether Contador should have waited for Schleck as he attempted to fix his chain, Riis shrugged again. “I would have hoped he would have waited, and I think I would have waited... I think he did wait at the beginning but then it was a while before Andy was on the bike again.

“I don’t know. Was it possible for Contador to wait in that situation, with [Samuel] Sanchez [Euskaltel] and [Denis] Menchov [Rabobank] attacking? He has to follow those guys, for sure. He might not need to pull [with them] or attack, but he has to follow those guys.

“[Andy] needs to stay calm, to focus and do the right thing. We’ll talk about it and we’ll make a plan - I think that’s the only thing we can do. There’s a lot of anger right now. I think that's normal and it’s okay. You have the right to let that out. But then he has to settle down again and regain his focus and do the right things.”

Riis attempted to play down any problems between Schleck and Contador, saying: “I don’t want to create a polemic [argument] here because these were the circumstances of the race, and sometimes it’s like that. A lot of guys crashed today and nobody helped, nobody waited. It’s how it is.

c montgomery

Does shleck have what it takes to regain the yellow tomorrow. Its only 8 seconds, its a really tough stage and he must be really pissed off.
He's 5/1 to be back in yellow tomorrow so i may throw a sneaky tenner on it and spend the day screaming at the TV:):)

Hermy

c montgomery wrote: »

Was contadore getting booed as he collected the yellow jersey today??

There was booing - I presumed it was directed at Contador.

On a related subject, does anyone know why Laurant Fignon was brought up to the podium after the days other presentations had been made?

Chips Lovell

c montgomery wrote: »

Does shleck have what it takes to regain the yellow tomorrow. Its only 8 seconds, its a really tough stage and he must be really pissed off.
He's 5/1 to be back in yellow tomorrow so i may throw a sneaky tenner on it and spend the day screaming at the TV:):)

Tomorrow's stage is a bit of a joker in the pack. A serious amount of hard clmibing, but the last climb is a long way from the finish. Essentially you need to have a serious advantage at the top of the final climb to stay away. Either that or be a great descender/TT'er like Samuel Sanchez. The fact that there's so much tough stuff early in the stage could cause havoc as a lot of teams could be seriously depleted early in the day. GC riders could end up having to do a lot themselves.

Thursday is a more obvious day for getting time but it's the last chance saloon for the climbers.

Inquitus

el tonto wrote: »

Tomorrow's stage is a bit of a joker in the back. A serious amount of hard clmibing, but the last climb is a long way from the finish. Essentially you need to have a serious advantage at the top of the final climb to stay away. Either that or be a great descender/TT'er like Samuel Sanchez. The fact that there's so much tough stuff early in the stage could cause havoc as a lot of teams could be seriously depleted early in the day. GC riders could end up having to do a lot themselves.

Thursday is a more obvious day for getting time but it's the last chance saloon for the climbers.

I agree, Schleck would need over a minute going over the top to have any chance of retaking yellow tomorrow. Thursday is his only/last chance at winning the Tour.