Unhappy trainee accountant seeks transfer!

kaiboy

Hi, first time poster on Boards! I am currently 8 months into my 3 year training contract (ACA) with one of the 'big four' firms in Dublin. Tbh, i find the work interesting enough, at times, and appreciate that the study leave received is quite generous. However, I genuinely hate the working environment in this particular company! Even as a first year, I feel unappreciated and taken advantage of in terms of working hours. Based on talking to those in the years ahead of me and basically looking around me, I can see that the situation only gets worse!! Also, I have nothing against working hard and long hours and understand it is part and parcel of being a trainee accountant but working, and even worse - being expected to work, excessive hours every week with not so much as a thanks, let alone some form of compensation is extremely depressing. Not to mention having no free time during the week and sometimes having to spend my weekends completing work! I am an unhappy trainee accountant!

I have come to the conclusion that I want to get out and continue my studies elsewhere. I am pretty sure I am entitled to break my contract, as I am in first year and still in my probationary period, and continue my training elsewhere. I am just looking to see if anyone out there has been in a similar situation and successfully transferred and how exactly do I go about it? I am fully aware of the state of the jobs market but am determined to find alternative employment elsewhere in practice or industry. Also, does anyone know how other large accounting practices would view an application such as mine outside of the milk rounds? Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated!!

kilburn

Sorry in advance but you should be happy that you have that chance. There are loads of us who only wish we had a training contract !

doodd

Best advice would be to ring the ICAI regarding changing jobs. I think before you sit the FAE exams it is a lot easier to switch and you have up to 6 months to find alternative employment, not sure you can do it in industry though, however you should just ring the ICAI.

kaiboy

kilburn wrote: »

Sorry in advance but you should be happy that you have that chance. There are loads of us who only wish we had a training contract !

Yeah, I know it prob sounds a bit ungratetul esp to people who dont have a contract! I really dont mean to sound patronising. I am basing my negative attitude on talking to trainees in the other big four firms who never seem to work overtime (probably because the other firms give time off for any overtime worked and therefore don't encourage it!) and do not seem to be under pressure regarding workload!

Your comment is the kind of attitude I was thinking that other potential employers may have also which is fair enough I suppose!

smcgiff

Everyone has the right to complain - others are likely to as well once on the far side of the far away hill.

I think the advice above is good - contact your institute. I imagine a non big 4 may be your best bet for a more balanced work/life set up. Good luck!

EDudder

kaiboy, who is it your with?

Just asking because i'm wondering which of the Big 4 has the worst overtime policy.

Theboinkmaster

kaiboy wrote: »

Hi, first time poster on Boards! I am currently 8 months into my 3 year training contract (ACA) with one of the 'big four' firms in Dublin. Tbh, i find the work interesting enough, at times, and appreciate that the study leave received is quite generous. However, I genuinely hate the working environment in this particular company! Even as a first year, I feel unappreciated and taken advantage of in terms of working hours. Based on talking to those in the years ahead of me and basically looking around me, I can see that the situation only gets worse!! Also, I have nothing against working hard and long hours and understand it is part and parcel of being a trainee accountant but working, and even worse - being expected to work, excessive hours every week with not so much as a thanks, let alone some form of compensation is extremely depressing. Not to mention having no free time during the week and sometimes having to spend my weekends completing work! I am an unhappy trainee accountant!

I have come to the conclusion that I want to get out and continue my studies elsewhere. I am pretty sure I am entitled to break my contract, as I am in first year and still in my probationary period, and continue my training elsewhere. I am just looking to see if anyone out there has been in a similar situation and successfully transferred and how exactly do I go about it? I am fully aware of the state of the jobs market but am determined to find alternative employment elsewhere in practice or industry. Also, does anyone know how other large accounting practices would view an application such as mine outside of the milk rounds? Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated!!

Hey man, sounds like part of the big 4 deal I'm afraid. i finished in big 4 3 years ago and could give you plenty of advice if you want - just pm me.

Also ringing ICAI is good advice - this happens all the time

crapmanjoe

EDudder wrote: »

kaiboy, who is it your with?

Just asking because i'm wondering which of the Big 4 has the worst overtime policy.

It's obviously the firm opposite the Luas on Harcourt St - they are the only ones who dont have any overtime policy

kaiboy - what department are you in within audit - I hear the work load varies alot from department to department

ferike1

Doesn't that put them at a disadvantage because their employees get less study leave then?

prinz

Op best bet is to contact the Institute. A friend of mine changed firms during his contract, but AFAIK you'll need to come up with a more comprehensive reason for moving, my friend had personal reasons for moving city and at the same time switched firms, this was facilitated. I am not so sure how they will view a request to move firms based on your objections above. Still worth a go.

ferike1 wrote: »

Doesn't that put them at a disadvantage because their employees get less study leave then?

In a word yes. It's the same in many smaller firms, no over time/time in lieu, despite being expected to put in the extra hours. I remember last year taking the study leave I got (Institute minimum) plus all of my annual leave (4 weeks) and I still had less study leave than a mate at a certain Big4 who used study leave and overtime worked up, even though we have both worked similar hours during the year. That's why some people can go off on holidays after their exams, and some people finish exams on a Friday and are back in work on the Monday.:pac:

kaiboy

EDudder wrote: »

kaiboy, who is it your with?

Just asking because i'm wondering which of the Big 4 has the worst overtime policy.

With the firm 'accross from the harcourt luas stop' as put by crapmanjoe!! Simply put, there is no overtime which means longer working hours because they are not goin to lose out in the future by having to give us this time off which means working longer hours for the foreseeable future - its a vicious circle!!! All other big 4, and the other large practices as far as I am aware, give time off for overtime worked.

J.Ryan

I would suggest that you take copies of your timesheets and submit them to the ICAI as your reason for wishing to move.

As I understand it (double check this yourself) the working time directive is averaged over 2/4/6/12 Months (excluding Holiday, Statutory or sick Leave.


So if you average over 48 weekly hours in any of those periods, the fact that your empoyer is breaking the law should be enough of a reason to transfer you).


You stated working most weekends


you are entitled to one day off every 7 days or 2 consecutive days every 14 days (preceded by the daily 11 hour rest period)

Regarding Sundays

Unless provided for by your contract, you have Sundays off, if you do work Sundays it must be compensated for.




Have a read of the organisation of Working Time Act 1997.


If you were feeling really evil you could make an anonymous complaint, I think the fines are over €1,000 for each employee that breaches the act (The fine is levied on the employer)

kaiboy

Thanks for that! Was actually aware of such employment legislation as one of the seniors in the firm drafted a very detailed email pointing this out, didnt make much difference!! Think the email was up on boards a few months back but was taken down because it mentioned the firm name! Email also got outside of firm and even made it into one of the sunday papers! Defo gonna talk to the Institute! Thanks again!

ferike1

This might be a stupid question but isn't there some legal requirement to provide some from of compensation for overtime, be it holidays or financial compensation?

kaiboy

ferike1 wrote: »

This might be a stupid question but isn't there some legal requirement to provide some from of compensation for overtime, be it holidays or financial compensation?

Nope! According to my research, employees paid a salary are paid to do a job and there are no requirements to pay overtime if the work has to be completed outside normal working hours. Basically, you are paid a set amount a month and it has nothing to do with hours worked!!:mad:

prinz

ferike1 wrote: »

This might be a stupid question but isn't there some legal requirement to provide some from of compensation for overtime, be it holidays or financial compensation?

Not as far as I'm aware. IIRC it is dependant on the way you are paid, i.e. annual salary v paid per hour. With an annual salary AFAIK basically it is a proposed payment *based upon* a typical working week. An employment contract will set it out annual salary based on for example 37.5 working hours per week. You may end up working an average of say 45 hours per week. Working out overtime/holiday compensation for this is AFAIK discretionary, and if I'm not mistaken doesn't apply to trainee accountants anyway.

The attitude seems to be if you get your work done in 37.5 hours well and good, anything after that is your own loss tbh.

breezy

kaiboy I feel your pain as I also work for the 'one across the road from the harcourt luas stop'. It really is dreadful the way staff are taken advantage of, I myself have been luckier than others in terms of my workload but the fact of the matter is is that we are understaffed and it's just all about the profit margin......I've no doubt that we are by far and away the most experienced 1st years out of the big four, the workload on some of the first years is beyond a joke. I could post a long rant about them but I think everyone knows how bad they are at this stage!

djk1000

kaiboy wrote: »

Hi, first time poster on Boards! I am currently 8 months into my 3 year training contract (ACA) with one of the 'big four' firms in Dublin. Tbh, i find the work interesting enough, at times, and appreciate that the study leave received is quite generous. However, I genuinely hate the working environment in this particular company! Even as a first year, I feel unappreciated and taken advantage of in terms of working hours. Based on talking to those in the years ahead of me and basically looking around me, I can see that the situation only gets worse!! Also, I have nothing against working hard and long hours and understand it is part and parcel of being a trainee accountant but working, and even worse - being expected to work, excessive hours every week with not so much as a thanks, let alone some form of compensation is extremely depressing. Not to mention having no free time during the week and sometimes having to spend my weekends completing work! I am an unhappy trainee accountant!

I have come to the conclusion that I want to get out and continue my studies elsewhere. I am pretty sure I am entitled to break my contract, as I am in first year and still in my probationary period, and continue my training elsewhere. I am just looking to see if anyone out there has been in a similar situation and successfully transferred and how exactly do I go about it? I am fully aware of the state of the jobs market but am determined to find alternative employment elsewhere in practice or industry. Also, does anyone know how other large accounting practices would view an application such as mine outside of the milk rounds? Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated!!

To be honest I don't think you have a hope of getting a training contract in any of the other 3. You might be lucky enough to get into a smaller practice, but what you've learned so far probably isn't completely relevant to a smaller practice.

My advice, suck it up for another few months, get a year under your belt, switch to ACCA, CIMA or CPA if the Chartered won't help you and have a look at industry, 12 months experience seems to be about the least amount of experience you need to get a job and ACA isn't as far ahead in snob value as it once was. Saying that industry is where you want to be is a plausible reason for leaving practice, but wanting to go from one practice to another during training is hard to justify to a potential employer.

kaiboy

breezy wrote: »

kaiboy I feel your pain as I also work for the 'one across the road from the harcourt luas stop'. It really is dreadful the way staff are taken advantage of, I myself have been luckier than others in terms of my workload but the fact of the matter is is that we are understaffed and it's just all about the profit margin......I've no doubt that we are by far and away the most experienced 1st years out of the big four, the workload on some of the first years is beyond a joke. I could post a long rant about them but I think everyone knows how bad they are at this stage!

Your mention of the word experience made me smile!!:D Thats all I hear from managers and my counsellor while everyone below that level seems to have a slightly different opinion....!!

Was talking to the Institute today and they reckon the chances of a transfer at this stage of the year are slim. They said we are entitled to leave during first year (as the firm is entitled to sack us!) but after that you cant leave as you are signed to a contract. Also, the firm cannot sack you unless they have good reason such as gross misconduct etc.

The way I look at is that all staff realise that we are completely taken advantage of and should man up and work normal hours. It is so maddening to be EXPECTED to work such hours for nothing in return. Dont get me wrong, I have no problem working over time when required as stated in the contract fom time to time but to see no end to the situation is so disheartening. There, I ranted on your behalf!!! Heres to another 3 years!

kaiboy

kaiboy wrote: »

Your mention of the word experience made me smile!!:D Thats all I hear from managers and my counsellor while everyone below that level seems to have a slightly different opinion....!!

Was talking to the Institute today and they reckon the chances of a transfer at this stage of the year are slim. They said we are entitled to leave during first year (as the firm is entitled to sack us!) but after that you cant leave as you are signed to a contract. Also, the firm cannot sack you unless they have good reason such as gross misconduct etc.

The way I look at is that all staff realise that we are completely taken advantage of and should man up and work normal hours. It is so maddening to be EXPECTED to work such hours for nothing in return. Dont get me wrong, I have no problem working over time when required as stated in the contract fom time to time but to see no end to the situation is so disheartening. There, I ranted on your behalf!!! Heres to another 3 years!

I've been there dude, qualified ACA in 2003. It's a cliche, but it really WILL be worth it at the end, and Big 4 experience opens up lots of opportunities in both practise and industry.

Unless the situation is literally unbearable, stick it out. It does get more manageable as you progress through the exams

eviltimeban

Ever thought of training in Industry? Does it have to be in practice?

ferike1

Man I hope the 'one across the street from the Harcourt street Luas' isn't all that bad because I know a certain somebody starting there...

kaiboy

eviltimeban wrote: »

Ever thought of training in Industry? Does it have to be in practice?

Sure did, but there is very few positions available for trainee accountants in industry especially in the 'current economic climate'! Even the large accounting practices are taking on less trainees than in previous years so I'm sure there is a lot of graduates out there who have no training contract at all.

kaiboy

ferike1 wrote: »

Man I hope the 'one across the street from the Harcourt street Luas' isn't all that bad because I know a certain somebody starting there...

To be fair and not completely depress that cetain someone, a lot does depend on the department you get and even the group within the department you are assigned to.... Good luck!

dormant_co_acc

Kaiboy - I too feel your pain. I qualified ACCA in 2005 and I know what it's like to be an unhappy... no... utterly miserable trainee. I'm so glad I stuck with it though.

My problem wasn't just long hours, it was basically that I was treated like dirt. People expecting results when offering little or no training or help (like someone should be able to walk into the office and lick the knowledge they need off the carpet!!).

If your only problem is the long hours then, I agree with djk1000. Suck it up. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

cunning stunts

ferike1 wrote: »

Man I hope the 'one across the street from the Harcourt street Luas' isn't all that bad because I know a certain somebody starting there...

Unfortunately yes, on the plus side there all as bad as each other

kaiboy

dormant_co_acc wrote: »

Kaiboy - I too feel your pain. I qualified ACCA in 2005 and I know what it's like to be an unhappy... no... utterly miserable trainee. I'm so glad I stuck with it though.

My problem wasn't just long hours, it was basically that I was treated like dirt. People expecting results when offering little or no training or help (like someone should be able to walk into the office and lick the knowledge they need off the carpet!!).

If your only problem is the long hours then, I agree with djk1000. Suck it up. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Sounds very familiar unfortunately!! Your advice is pretty much the conclusion I have arrived at myself!!

EDudder

Do people reckon theres any difference in work load/hours between Dublin and regional offices of the big 4?

freema

Hey doing audit at the moment and started my job with a smaller practise for the last few months but got offered a role in advisory with another firm.would it be easy to switch during my training contract?