Demos

MilanPan!c

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

I agree, and I was actually meant to say in my post from a songwriting point of view I find Milan's stuff very interesting. But beyond that, I don't understand the point.

Thanks for the compliment!

The point is this, and I'll just explain the whole thing at once instead of just dribs and drabs:

Every band I've ever been in, and that's a few, has done this:

find members
write songs
rehearse songs
play a bunch of crappy shows
record songs in studio on our own dime
re-learn the songs the way we recorded them
play slightly better shows
record again, on our own dime
pay someone to promote
talk to labels
put out something we paid to record
collapse in frustration

essentially.

What I decided to do, this time around, was to group try and record and define the band, before playing any shows, basically skip the steps 4-6:

play a bunch of crappy shows
record songs in studio on our own dime
re-learn the songs the way we recorded them

Instead I decided to stick to a few basic principles:

record the songs as best as I could
try to find help from interested parties
crowd-source the feedback process
include the world in the process

The last part was, I think a pretty good idea.

I've found that people, strangers, are feeling connected to this... let me give you one example:

recently I posted something on thumped about the band and a stranger said, essentially, "I feel like we've watched this come from the ground up.. it's exciting"

Now, I know that's a paraphrase of a single comment, but it's not actually the only one.

Rock just said the same thing.

People develop a connection, at least some do.

I have yet to have someone say, I dismiss your band, out of hand, because I you post demos and various iterations of your material. Maybe some do, but I think I'm coming out ahead...

This process isn't random to me. Yes, it's uncharted and yes it's be different in some respect if I didn't have other "real world" connections, but go look here:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/TheRiotTapes/107102279324813?v=app_178091127385

The VAST majority of these people are not actual friends of any of us. They're strangers.

Those people get updated version of songs all the time, and they still keep listening.

This guy, who I don't know, recently posted a link on his blog to a demo:

http://www.briangreene.com/bhg/2010/the-riot-tapes-open-eyed-dreams/

The Irish Times mentioned us, favourably, after we'd been recording my kitchen for 3 months.

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes as well.

And at least 60% of this stuff has nothing to do with my old label affiliations, but with people listening to unfinished stuff.

And demos.

So, to me, like I said, it's invaluable, but maybe not to others. That's cool.

I can measure the benefits though.

MilanPan!c

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Fair enough...surely that's when you're learning? If you want to establish yourself as a serious band or artist you have to be beyond that stage. I know we're "always learning", but I think there comes a point when you have to do your own thing and let it stand on its own two feet.

I don't think an artist that wants to be seen as an act to be taken seriously should put his songs up for critique before release, just doesn't make sense to me!

To me, that doesn't make sense, at least not the me now... and old me maybe...

(hope that didn't come across as weird..)

I have gotten so much good feedback, just huge amount of honest info... I don't think I "know what's best" in so many instances.

I want people to help me and I want people to engage with the project.

This doesn't mean I'm forced to accept anything, but at least I know, more or less, what the response will be. To me, that's just gold.

Without being cheesy, I love collaborating, but I've had my own material watered down so many times by the collaboration process.

Have a crowd opinion means a wide variety of input, that I KNOW is honest. It also means I can reject the stupid or unworkable ideas without hurting feelings.

To me, its a perfect thing.

I am CONSTANTLY telling the people I work with that this band of mine is NOT an ego project. Tell me if something sucks, give me a better suggestion, be honest!

I have good "taste" for my genre, I'm protective of my music and I'm thick skinned. This means I can pretty easily suss out a useful suggestion, I won't be bullied and bad feedback doesn't hurt me.

To me, and for what I'm trying to accomplish, this process is exciting and useful.

Welease

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

I don't think an artist that wants to be seen as an act to be taken seriously should put his songs up for critique before release, just doesn't make sense to me!

Isn't that an old way of looking at things?

Nowaday's technology has allowed, and in some case's encourages, global collaborations.. 20 years ago it was physical "collectives".. now with the internet, it's through electronic collectives.

People can draw new ideas and perspectives from putting something out there, and getting feedback on the next logical step.

There are very few perfect song writers or songs in this world.. and most could do with some polish.. if the final product is better.. everyone has gained. Locking it away until final release minimises the potential (but some could argue, keep's it purer to the songwriter).

(final post before bed, and I had a few whiskey.. will proof read and spell check tomorrow)

eoin5

My 2 cents not that its worth that much but if youre a serious originals band trying to make a go of it then the timing of releasing makes a big deal. If you release your stuff in dribs and drabs in various qualities over a period of time its unlikely that you're going to create a decent splash in the pond and garner a bit of interest. The polished 2-3 singles plus album plus marketing and tour formula is a proven one.

Now after saying that I wouldn't do any of that in a fit unless someone else was to do all the running. My music is fun for me and I don't want it any other way. Covers or backing band stuff is a bit different, its fun paid work thats great practice I won't have to get a loan out to cover the expense of a proper album recording and promotion tour (record deal = loan in my mind). I don't feel I need fame or success as I've a job I'm very happy in, but if it happened on my terms I wouldn't say no .

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What are they for ?

Why are you asking such a simple question? A demo is a tester, a way in which the artist can measure the public's reaction.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Are they for public consumption ?

No they are to create public awareness of a bands potential.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Isn't that what 'CDs' or 'Releases' are for ?

No CD's and releases are not fit for the same purpose as a demo.
A demo is a tester, a way in which the artist can measure the public's reaction.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Is it not damaging to a bands rep to put 'unfinished' work on a public arena like MySpace - a punter just listens and either like or dislikes, what they hear is what is being judged.

It is damaging but what are bands to do wait until they get a proper budget from a rip off major label? Let them at it, unfinished is raw and that has as much merit as the posh version of the same song.
Just because something is unfinished doesn't mean it is useless.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

A friend referred me to a band on myspace who have 2 'demo' tracks up - both awful. My shackles are raised instantly.
Why would a band do that ?

Because they can that's why, its better than wasting thousands of euros learning how to record in a flash studio only to find out they are a junk outfit.

MilanPan!c

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Hey Milan. I want to ask you, and it's absolutely nothing personal, but the way you "evolved" this song a few months back (and I'm presuming that is the song you posted a few different versions of, sorry if I'm wrong)

It just makes me think...what do you fear from committing 100% to a song, presenting it exactly how you envisage it, completely your creation, recorded to a quality that in your mind does it justice?

Surely by offering it up to the public and asking for opinions you're diluting the song as being your own and what you originally envisaged? That might be a bit la-di-da or whatever...but I don't think it's the same thing as a band throwing in ideas and developing a song...or getting a producer onboard to do the same. By presenting the song publicly in an unfinished state and looking for opinions to change the song "for the better"...just doesn't make sense to me. It's interesting, I'll give you that! It's almost verging on online collaboration...but it doesn't strike you as not having 100% commitment and confidence in your songs?

And don't take that wrongly as not having 100% commitment to your music, you most definitely do, plain to see. I may have worded that all wrong, but do you get where I'm coming from?

No apologies necessary.

I comletely understand the question.

The answer has to do with how I write. And I don't see the process and a dilution, but a honing process.

I tend to get inspired, musically, by playing instruments. I play until I find something that sounds good to me (ands strangely, feels good to play). Then I sit back and write a song, chords and structure, around the original bit.

Then I add the layers etc. And of course the vocals come in at some point.

Now at all of these stages I actually do the 'writing' by running through hundreds (if not many hundreds) or ideas and iterations of those ideas. It's just something I can do and the easiest way for me to write.

Now, many many of those ideas are equally "good" and at some point the end result becomes a hit "arbritary" I'm the sense that, I've sort of randomly chosen between two good parts (or 10 or sometimes more).

When I get feedback, sometimes, mutilple people say they'd like to hear something different at point x.

I certainly considered many variations for the same point in the song.

To me, if the song is "better" because I've switched to another one of my own ideas, then I'm happy, others are happy and the band is potentially more successful.

But, there's many songs where no one suggests anything other than part x is too long. In those cases, I think, "Great! Another idea to shorten the song" as I prefer short songs.

Honestly, I rarely am precious with my material. If a lot of people think x about a song, there's probably a reason. That being said, I give different weight to different folks.

In descending order:
me
my bandmates
my chosen group of friends that I send songs to
strangers that I kind of know, like the MP folks
complete randomers on the internet

Of course, if someone from any tier offers me truly amazing feedback, I listen.

It's kinda compex and it evolved into beat practice over the first few tunes.

Sorry to wander OT.

Essentially, in answer to your question, once the initial inspiration is in place there's many variations of a good idea. I'm open to exploring my own options then letting others react to my ideas. If they love or hate something Incan take that on board without straying from the original inspiration.

Does any of that make sense?

I shoulda had some coffee before I responded.

MilanPan!c

dav nagle wrote: »

Why are you asking such a simple question? A demo is a tester, a way in which the artist can measure the public's reaction.


No they are to create public awareness of a bands potential.



No CD's and releases are not fit for the same purpose as a demo.
A demo is a tester, a way in which the artist can measure the public's reaction.


It is damaging but what are bands to do wait until they get a proper budget from a rip off major label? Let them at it, unfinished is raw and that has as much merit as the posh version of the same song.
Just because something is unfinished doesn't mean it is useless.



Because they can that's why, its better than wasting thousands of euros learning how to record in a flash studio only to find out they are a junk outfit.

I totally agree with ALL of this.

It seems absurd to me that I should spend a **** load of money on a song that only a handful of people have heard. Albums are full of this sort of material and a LOT of it is ill advised.

I also believe that many AWFUL songs can be live crowd pleasers. So frying to judge the quality of a tune by the reaction it gets live is rarely a good idea.

Much better to explore the song and make it as good as possible.

Now, I know that a lot of folks tend to think in the terms of, "diluting the potential" of a song, but to me that's a bit absurd unless you're hugely famous. MOST music fans aren't paying any attention to what I'm doing. The impact on my songs in say, Spain, is essentially meaningless. Unless the feedback I get helps me write a song with the potential to be a hit in Spain.

So, feedback increases the potential; it doesn't dilute it.

In my opinion.

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I have a posted 3 songs on Paul's very own "lets hear your music" thread.
Something I wouldn't have done maybe 18 months ago.

I didn't post them up as complete and finished as I am still only learning.
My reason for putting them up was to gauge peoples reactions and to get as much information as I could about where I was going wrong/right.

I consider it one of the best things I have done in terms of learning new things and making new contacts.

I actually find it fascinating to see how a tracks from the likes of Chris/Milan or ZV Yoda can change and evolve in front of your ears.

See link http://soundcloud.com/rockshamrover

Rock, posting here and it's likes wasn't what I meant - even though this is 'public' in the broad sense it's really rather specialised, so that's fair enough.

I meant dropping unfinished work into the public arena MySpace etc.

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Rock, posting here and it's likes wasn't what I meant - even though this is 'public' in the broad sense it's really rather specialised, so that's fair enough.

I meant dropping unfinished work into the public arena MySpace etc.

SoundCloud is just as public, FYI.

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

SoundCloud is just as public, FYI.

Fair Point

ClutchIt

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Now at all of these stages I actually do the 'writing' by running through hundreds (if not many hundreds) or ideas and iterations of those ideas. It's just something I can do and the easiest way for me to write.

Now, many many of those ideas are equally "good" and at some point the end result becomes a hit "arbritary" I'm the sense that, I've sort of randomly chosen between two good parts (or 10 or sometimes more).

When I get feedback, sometimes, mutilple people say they'd like to hear something different at point x.

I certainly considered many variations for the same point in the song.

To me, if the song is "better" because I've switched to another one of my own ideas, then I'm happy, others are happy and the band is potentially more successful.

But this is the essence of songwriting really. Everyone has to decide between different notes, chords, length of times to repeat something etc.
You should try to be more confident in your own decisions instead of needing other opinions all the time. But I don't blame you, I know it's not easy and if I wasn't working by myself so much I'd prob be the same.

I think you should make one demo. Then use that to get your band together, get gigs and hopefully get the money together to do a proper record release. Doing more than one demo of a song and posting them all up is boring and a completely pointless exercise to anyone other than musicians (or even worse probably just to music producers).

But each to their own and you seem to be doing OK for a band that hasn't even gigged together!

Neurojazz

Surely posting publicly and asking for feedback creates a nightmare for a publisher and potential label.

NFP category comes to mind, but there are probably others.

Any contributor to criticism to any track posted that way would be legally entitled to a share of royalties even if they were not credited, and take issue with the bands publisher and you'd get no royalty until settled. As all the feedback is in black & white, dated, here.

Another angle that's probably at the back of PBs mind.

MilanPan!c

Neurojazz wrote: »

Surely posting publicly and asking for feedback creates a nightmare for a publisher and potential label.

NFP category comes to mind, but there are probably others.

Any contributor to criticism to any track posted that way would be legally entitled to a share of royalties even if they were not credited, and take issue with the bands publisher and you'd get no royalty until settled. As all the feedback is in black & white, dated, here.

Another angle that's probably at the back of PBs mind.

No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.

If someone came up to you a a gig and said, the solo is too long, and then you shortened the solo, would they get a credit??

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't hold up in any court.

That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

Besides, I've got all the original bits.. I someone can find something they suggested that falls outside of some bit I've recorded and theyan prove they gave it to me, and they can convince a court of all of that, then grand, they can have 1% of the song. But no one aside from the core of the band actually writes the material.

Not worried about that at all, in all honesty.

MilanPan!c

ClutchIt wrote: »

But this is the essence of songwriting really. Everyone has to decide between different notes, chords, length of times to repeat something etc.
You should try to be more confident in your own decisions instead of needing other opinions all the time. But I don't blame you, I know it's not easy and if I wasn't working by myself so much I'd prob be the same.

I think you should make one demo. Then use that to get your band together, get gigs and hopefully get the money together to do a proper record release. Doing more than one demo of a song and posting them all up is boring and a completely pointless exercise to anyone other than musicians (or even worse probably just to music producers).

But each to their own and you seem to be doing OK for a band that hasn't even gigged together!

It's got nothing to do with confidence, it's about stepping outside my bubble.

I don't think "how do I fix this crap" I think " can I somehow make a good song better".

I wouldn't post it anywhere if I didn't think it was good, or unless I thought it was interesting.

As for it being boring, lots of folks disagree, others just ignore the stuff.

As for only being interesting to musicians, go look at our facebook friends, that's not a big list of musos/musicians.

novarock

In my experience, what we have classified as demo's are not what we record ourselves. There is nothing worse than being handed a CD, or sent a link and then being told "this isnt the final mix" or "we're recording it properly next month".

A demo should give the listener an idea of what you sound like, but it still has to sound great/professional. An example would be my own band that use some electronics/backing tracks and the normal three piece rock setup. Our initial "demo's" were what we were playing live at the time, as in the three main instruments and the mono backing track with very few overdubs or post/pre production put into it, but recorded properly (by Mick in Trackmix).

They were demo's recorded on a tight budget, and giving Mick very little time to mix, (3 or 4 songs in 2 or 3 days) but they were recorded to airplay standard, and were sent to radio.

It wasnt until this year that we properly produced the songs and recorded them on a bigger budget with more time, but the ground work was in place, and people had heard a demo of a good standard, so we still got great feedback on the new recordings.

The point im trying to make is that im one of the listeners (as im sure that most people on this forum are) that doesnt just listen to the song as a whole, i listen to the production, the individual instruments, the singer etc.. So in my opinion to put something in the public domain that you cannot fully stand behind, and not give any excuses about, is a bad idea.

PaulBrewer

henessjon wrote: »

strange post for you..PB

bearing in mind there probably are only few dozen worthy producers out there your not giving us lesser mortals encouragement

to invest more in our efforts..


but hey ho ...

keep music live
keep making music

is what i say

That's the point Jon ! Try harder - make decisions and present work when it's finished !

Rockshamrover

How many bands have gone the route of spending vast sums in getting top quality recordings done to find that their stuff just isn't up to scratch? Or is of no interest to Joe Bloggs? A good 99.9%

That's just not a viable option for the majority of people now. It just doesn't make sense for a band.

You can log onto Gearslutz and go to their version of "lets hear your music".
A lot of the guys there are using state of the art equipment but it doesn't mean their song writing or music compositions are better than the guy with a 4 track.

The net is just a new way to reach listeners. My crappy songs have been listened to by people in every part of the world, I think that's incredible and I think it's the future of Rock and Roll:D

Neurojazz

MilanPan!c wrote: »

No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.

If someone came up to you a a gig and said, the solo is too long, and then you shortened the solo, would they get a credit??

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't hold up in any court.

That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

It's more about the material posted here, in black and white when people recommendations - that would stand up in a court, and even a publisher seeing it would balk. Just makes me wonder about people posting for feedback, and then saying 'No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.' - why do you actually post and ask for feedback then? Ego masturbation?

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's the point Jon ! Try harder - make decisions and present work when it's finished !

I really don't believe you think I don't try hard.

It's not about my effort levels and its kinda annoying to see it framed like that.

If I was working with you and you told gave me a suggestions, should I ignore it? I mean, if the song is done, why listen to ANYONE?

I don't know a single successful musician (and I know more than a few) that got that way by assuming that a) they didn't need outside opinions and b) their material was perfect.

I honestly, honestly, think that a LOT of the material I hear should've gone through a more rigorous demoing process.

I don't actually believe that live is a good way to demo material (no one can hear it, you can't actually bring production ideas to stage the way you can in a studio and drunks aren't great at critical thinking).

Until I have a bad experience from this process, you're not gonna convince me it's flawed.

To me, asking for advice and knowing what advice to listen to and what to ignore is a crucial part of the equation... To me.

But PB, I bust my hump on a pretty much daily basis for this thing, you may not like my choices, that's cool, but saying I'm not trying is pretty weak. I assume if I had sorta half-assed the material, not shared the demos, and went to a studio, then came out with a gorgeously polished turd, that would be "trying hard"?

I don't think it's reasonable to equate, "recording quality" to "effort".

DamagedTrax

Neurojazz wrote: »

It's more about the material posted here, in black and white when people recommendations - that would stand up in a court, and even a publisher seeing it would balk. Just makes me wonder about people posting for feedback, and then saying 'No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.' - why do you actually post and ask for feedback then? Ego masturbation?

i dont know about this to be honest.
look at it from from a point of view that'd we'd both be familiar with neuro - take d.a.v.e. the drummer (stay up forever, hydraulix, boscaland etc etc). he posts nearly all his demos online and never has a problem releasing them. maybe he's at a stage where he's gonna shift units no matter what? maybe the electronic scene works differant?

i know when i was starting out making techno i used to post a lot of tracks over at mark EGs blackout audio forums and a lot of my earlier stuff was signed from those posts.

personally i choose not to post demos when i started getting happy with my productions but i know quite a few producers on the techno scene with a large amount of releases between them that still post demos and sketches over there.

im also currently about to start making techno again and since i havent been doing it in a few years ill probably go back over there for some input before i start sending out to labels. thats a lot to do with the speed in which that scene moves though and being away from it for a while i'd be pretty arrogant to assume i know whats working a dancefloor these days.

i think its all pretty simple - whatever works for you is the way to go.

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I really don't believe you think I don't try hard.

It's not about my effort levels and its kinda annoying to see it framed like that.

If I was working with you and you told gave me a suggestions, should I ignore it? I mean, if the song is done, why listen to ANYONE?

I don't know a single successful musician (and I know more than a few) that got that way by assuming that a) they didn't need outside opinions and b) their material was perfect.

I honestly, honestly, think that a LOT of the material I hear should've gone through a more rigorous demoing process.

I don't actually believe that live is a good way to demo material (no one can hear it, you can't actually bring production ideas to stage the way you can in a studio and drunks aren't great at critical thinking).

Until I have a bad experience from this process, you're not gonna convince me it's flawed.

To me, asking for advice and knowing what advice to listen to and what to ignore is a crucial part of the equation... To me.

But PB, I bust my hump on a pretty much daily basis for this thing, you may not like my choices, that's cool, but saying I'm not trying is pretty weak. I assume if I had sorta half-assed the material, not shared the demos, and went to a studio, then came out with a gorgeously polished turd, that would be "trying hard"?

I don't think it's reasonable to equate, "recording quality" to "effort".

Is your name Jon ?;)

MilanPan!c

Neurojazz wrote: »

It's more about the material posted here, in black and white when people recommendations - that would stand up in a court, and even a publisher seeing it would balk. Just makes me wonder about people posting for feedback, and then saying 'No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.' - why do you actually post and ask for feedback then? Ego masturbation?

Like I said, no one has yet said, "try going to C# here" etc.etc.

It's always little things and it's almost always something I've thought of anyway. In fact it's often something I already have recorded.

Really though, we've talked to all sorts of industry folks (our producer is wildly connected) and they see what we do and don't raise any flags.

Maybe they will at some point, but so far, nothing.

On the other hand, I was at a party recently, full of musicians and assorted hangers-on... I met at least five people that had heard of my band... a few knew song titles.

This thing I do works for me... and people that find it annoying or boring have just learned to ignore it.

Neurojazz

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Like I said, no one has yet said, "try going to C# here" etc.etc.

It's always little things and it's almost always something I've thought of anyway. In fact it's often something I already have recorded.

Really though, we've talked to all sorts of industry folks (our producer is wildly connected) and they see what we do and don't raise any flags.

Maybe they will at some point, but so far, nothing.

On the other hand, I was at a party recently, full of musicians and assorted hangers-on... I met at least five people that had heard of my band... a few knew song titles.

This thing I do works for me... and people that find it annoying or boring have just learned to ignore it.

Then maybe the thing missing is that people actually are seeking producers/guidance to get the confidence to think it's something to release and seeking that input from whatever source they can get?

Look at Hysteria/Def Leppard and the whole Mutt Lange impact.

MilanPan!c

Neurojazz wrote: »

Then maybe the thing missing is that people actually are seeking producers/guidance to get the confidence to think it's something to release and seeking that input from whatever source they can get?

Look at Hysteria/Def Leppard and the whole Mutt Lange impact.

I'm not sure about the whole producers/confidence angle.

I have no lack of confidence, but I'm not arrogant. I am open to hearing people's input.

All the bands you can think of work with producers that influence and change their sound, at least most of...

Do all those bands, from the Beatles, to Radiohead, to Sinatra, etc., lack confidence?

Or did they just value an outside ear and someone else's input and help?

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

(our producer is wildly connected)

Who's that then ?

henessjon

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's the point Jon ! Try harder - make decisions and present work when it's finished !

so is it the song you are damming or the production?

maybe Im getting confused on your viewpoint?


whats use are demos maybe another thread

PaulBrewer

henessjon wrote: »

so is it the song you are damming or the production?

maybe Im getting confused on your viewpoint?

The two are very intertwined. I just feel posting unfinished work is a bit lazy.

I'm not interested in unfinished work as a rule (unless I'm involved) and while it might be of some interest to some 'in da biz' I don't believe many punters are either.

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Who's that then ?

An English guy named Tim.

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

An English guy named Tim.

Tim Who ?

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Tim Who ?

Why do you care?

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Tim Who ?

TelePaul

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Why do you care?

DamagedTrax

thats easy for frankie to say...

i57dwun4yb1pt8

LOL

stateofflux

with the amount of recording power the average person has on even a basic laptop....there should'nt be a need to use the term demo....
sometimes i can't tell the difference between high end studio masters and a DIY job with a guy who knows what he's doing....especially with non miced instruments

Rockshamrover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Rock, posting here and it's likes wasn't what I meant - even though this is 'public' in the broad sense it's really rather specialised, so that's fair enough.

I meant dropping unfinished work into the public arena MySpace etc.

Some famous producer once said (or was it twice) "a song is never finished, it's abandoned".

Again it all depends on why you are putting the music out there and where you are on the learning curve.

There is obviously no benefit in posting unfinished work for the likes of yourself as you know what you're doing and what you want to achieve.

Us slow learners:D can still derive some benefit from it for now.

I would probably share your view if I had your experience but I would recommend my view for people looking for experience.

People need to get their music listened to at a certain point in their development. No point in Auntie B and uncle Joe hearing it.

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Why do you care?

Just asking. I'm interested in who is doing what within the industry.

PaulBrewer

stateofflux wrote: »

with the amount of recording power the average person has on even a basic laptop....there should'nt be a need to use the term demo....
sometimes i can't tell the difference between high end studio masters and a DIY job with a guy who knows what he's doing....especially with non miced instruments

Good Point -

I use the term 'Demo' as in unfinished idea as opposed to a reflection on it's recording quality.

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Some famous producer once said (or was it twice) "a song is never finished, it's abandoned".

Again it all depends on why you are putting the music out there and where you are on the learning curve.

There is obviously no benefit in posting unfinished work for the likes of yourself as you know what you're doing and what you want to achieve.

Us slow learners:D can still derive some benefit from it for now.

I would probably share your view if I had your experience but I would recommend my view for people looking for experience.

People need to get their music listened to at a certain point in their development. No point in Auntie B and uncle Joe hearing it.

That's fine Rock, and I can see that that could make sense.
But I think there can be negative consequences.

My gut reaction to that band I mentioned in the OP was hit the 'Stop' button quick.

I doubt that was intention.


Had they presented even one song well, this thread might never have happened.

PMI

Demo is an OLD word....

I like to call it the 1st run, and if your throwing it out in the public arena your designing the song to what suits....

I fought hard and lost about putting some really bad one take demos up they went ahead and i try to ignore it....

Demo was for a record company, so those days are gone you have to be finished, looking good, fan base built etc.. and off ya go...

I too like paul would like to know this tim guy as im english and have worked with a few tims in my time, in london and am wondering if its any of them....

no need to dive down pauls throat

Rockshamrover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's fine Rock, and I can see that that could make sense.
But I think there can be negative consequences.

My gut reaction to that band I mentioned in the OP was hit the 'Stop' button quick.

I doubt that was intention.


Had they presented even one song well, this thread might never have happened.

It's a useful thread in fairness, you have a knack for throwing these out every so often.

I take your point on these guys giving you something for consideration that they deemed worthy but which wasn't.

I know myself when posting tracks they are unfinished and I am not looking for someone to say they are great and here's a 5 album deal. All I really want is the expert ear of the listener to give me guidance so that I can steadily improve (hopefully)

On that note, it would be great if the pros on here would give their opinions on tracks from time to time. I know you guys are busy and that time is money etc. (I may live to regret this:D)

MilanPan!c

PMI wrote: »

Demo is an OLD word....

I like to call it the 1st run, and if your throwing it out in the public arena your designing the song to what suits....

I fought hard and lost about putting some really bad one take demos up they went ahead and i try to ignore it....

Demo was for a record company, so those days are gone you have to be finished, looking good, fan base built etc.. and off ya go...

I too like paul would like to know this tim guy as im english and have worked with a few tims in my time, in london and am wondering if its any of them....

no need to dive down pauls throat

I wasn't trying to dive down his throat... I just... I find sometimes that I should stop posting on threads... and then I don't... and then bad stuff happens...

So... His surname is Clarke.

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

On that note, it would be great if the pros on here would give their opinions on tracks from time to time. I know you guys are busy and that time is money etc. (I may live to regret this:D)

I think it may be the case that Silence may indeed be a comment in itself

I don't differentiate between 'Pro' and 'Not Pro' , to me it's a case of 'Kop On' or 'Not Kop On' .... which either side of the imaginary divide may have.

Anyone can have a great idea ! That's what makes new music/artists so exciting.

However one does often see a repeated pattern of mistakes made by bands - and whilst I'm not in a position to offer a definitive ' How to Succeed' there is a whole heap of obvious stuff to avoid to stop you NOT being taken seriously.

A Battle-of-Band Competition is one ( Jedward forgive me !) Presenting unfinished work is another.

Imagine a Tailor or Jeweler putting unfinished work in their window ?
That seems like a fair analogy .....

They just wouldn't do it.

maccored

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I wasn't trying to dive down his throat... I just... I find sometimes that I should stop posting on threads... and then I don't... and then bad stuff happens...

So... His surname is Clarke.

tim clarke the golfer? :pac:

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I wasn't trying to dive down his throat... I just... I find sometimes that I should stop posting on threads... and then I don't... and then bad stuff happens...

Perhaps you should demo your posts online before posting them ?;)

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I think it may be the case that Silence may indeed be a comment in itself

I don't differentiate between 'Pro' and 'Not Pro' , to me it's a case of 'Kop On' or 'Not Kop On' .... which either side of the imaginary divide may have.

Anyone can have a great idea ! That's what makes new music/artists so exciting.

However one does often see a repeated pattern of mistakes made by bands - and whilst I'm not in a position to offer a definitive ' How to Succeed' there is a whole heap of obvious stuff to avoid to stop you NOT being taken seriously.

A Battle-of-Band Competition is one ( Jedward forgive me !) Presenting unfinished work is another.

Imagine a Tailor or Jeweler putting unfinished work in their window ?
That seems like a fair analogy .....

They just wouldn't do it.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here man.

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

tim clarke the golfer? :pac:

I knew there had to be a reason for the trousers.... this explains a LOT

maccored

PaulBrewer wrote: »

A Battle-of-Band Competition is one

where does one draw the line though? The likes of the IMRO showcase tour would be a 'Battle-of-Band Competition' along with many other of the higher profile type gigs. HWCH could also fall into the category considering only so many get through.

PMI

Paul was just interested and if the guy you worked with was a heavy weight with contacts bud you would of stuck the surname in as quick as his 1st ya get me

Like This: Martyn Ware, J.R Rotem etc...

Also you wouldnt of needed to say it we dont

PaulBrewer

maccored wrote: »

where does one draw the line though?

Where one wants I guess ?

I can't imagine any current band with a molecule of pride or self belief wanting to put themselves where you could get stamped with 'coming last'.

By entering a competition you're tacitly saying to 'The Judges' that you have confidence in their opinion and acknowledge their authority to judge - I don't believe art is a competition.

The crowd is probably partisan so you're not really going to impress anyone.

At best you might win something...... but probably not. And if you do win, so what ?

How many people were stamped with the 'You're a Star' Cross of Shame ?

'Oh, you're the guys who went out in the first round?'

Imagine carrying that stigma or similar around.

I suppose there is the Summer Season in Trabolgan to aim for ....