A Warning to ALL TV Buyers. Flood of UK surplus TVs on market.

watty

Since ASO is to be co-ordinated North & South and Last ASO is 1st November in N.I., there is a good chance it won't be working in less than 2 years.

Sponge Bob

2 Years is the bare minimum even a cheap noname telly should work for under Irish consumer law in order to be fit for the purpose.

Officially the UK is holding to 2 years after February 2011 ( February 2013 says the Digital Britain site), where is the official story on 1 Nov 2012 being the final date an analogue TV will be fit for the purpose ??

watty

Irish ASO to be co-ordinated with NI.

NI last ASO has been brought forward from 2013 to Nov 2012.

So...

How can Ireland have Analogue after end Oct 2012?

This used to have 2013
http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/when_do_i_switch/utv_region

Also UK doesn't switch sites generally between November and March?

Why did Minister Ryan not publically sign the order for ASO on 29th October 2010 for November 2012?
Is he asleep? Does he not realise he can be creating a liability for the Government and thus the Tax payer if he gives less than 2 years notice? I think the Retailers and Distributers might have grounds to sue for sets returned sold after the 2 years before ASO but before the order is signed.

watty

A TV is not just for Christmas.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/that-new-christmas-tv-could-soon-be-useless-2459527.html

The article would have been better without the inaccurate statement by Currys. UPC and Sky don't use MPEG2 or MPEG4 on your TV. Also if you are a Sky or UPC subscriber it's still important to buy the correct TV as you may wish to cancel, or the service might fail (dish or cable damage or box failure), or you may get a bigger TV and want the TV in another room.

I expect Irish 80% Pay TV penetration to fall to UK 52% to 56% levels which are near saturation as people realise about Freesat and Saorview

A version of the news item without the inane Currys's statement.
http://www.saortv.info/2010/12/14/a-tv-is-not-just-for-christmas/

See also
www.saorview.ie

spoonface

watty wrote: »

A TV is not just for Christmas.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/that-new-christmas-tv-could-soon-be-useless-2459527.html

The article would have been better without the inaccurate statement by Currys. [/url]

Very sloppy article. I've just sent the "journalist" in question an email...

Dear Fiona,
I have just read your Independent article which states “all Irish homes need to upgrade their TV sets to receive a digital signal to watch RTE One, RTE Two, TV3 and TG4 as the analogue terrestrial television network -- which is the system of watching television stations through an outdoor or indoor aerial -- will be switched off.”

This is totally untrue because many, many homes including my own are not in any way dependent on aerial for TV reception – instead they have signed up to a cable company like UPC and will continue to receive TV in this way even after RTE turns off their analog signal. So ‘all’ is a large overstatement, which seems to be there only to serve the purposes of Currys who are quoted in your article.

watty

But many UPC and Sky homes have other TVs not on Subscrpition, or may cancel Pay TV within the next two to 3 years.

So Pay TV is irrelevant. If you are buying a new TV it should be compatible.

Anyone can add a set-box.

Sponge Bob

Olivia Mitchell of FG is probably the first politician to even half notice what is going on. Fair play....even if she is only repeating Sponge Bob 6 months after the fact

At this point the WORST offenders clearly stand out. These are the stores that constantly DUMP non compatible TVs on the Irish market.

They are Aldi ( who have never sold a compatible TV) and Tesco and Argos .

Every other retailer is selling compliant or largely compliant equipment. The best of them are Lidl (only recently), DID and Powercity. These are the stores that people should go to.

Currys and the 2 franchise types, Expert and Euronics are somewhat second tier in terms of compliance. I believe they could cop themselves on in short order though. Harvey Norman also have the worst TV buying guide in the country , read this crap here .

Harvey Norman are second tier ....even though the model range shown online seems fairly OK ...BECAUSE of that buying guide. Can someone find out what cheap models ( sub 25" and Combi DVD units) they sell for me please.

BengaLover

Oh dea, maybe this is why Harvey Normans are selling 16" lcds for 68 euro?

Sponge Bob

They are all entitled to clear correctly labelled non compliant gear out of their stores by the end of 2010. If this non compliant crap is sold any time after Jan 01 2011 it is a completely different matter.

watty

I was in Currys last week.

Some TVs have in Bold a heading
MPEG4
With something like Irish Digital Compatible in regular print.

The bold heading is same size as all the other headings on the white description card.

Other sets don't have that section (which doesn't stand out) nor anything to indicate that they are NOT compatible.

IMO they should not mention MPEG4 as loads of dvd players, DVD recorders and TVs with integrated DVD mention MPEG4 (actually referring to PC file Xvid or DivX playback and not Broadcast MPEG4 via tuner). Also there are MPEG4 tuners that are not working with Irish Digital TV.

A proposal for ALL shops & Web sites

TVs should have Clearly with Ticks or Red Cross.

[_] Saorview Certified
[_] Irish Digital Compatible
Option only for those with UK aerials:
[_] UK Freeview HD Compatible

If it is not at least Irish Digital Compatible it should have a large heavy read cross through all three entries.
It's likely ALL "Freeview HD" sets tick the "Irish Digital Compatible" box.

In store there should be at least one poster:
Saorview Certified

---

Certified Compatible with Irish Digital Television. Will receive "Freeview" but may not receive "Freeview HD" in Border or Coastal locations where UK TV can be received via an Aerial. Freesat is recommended (Dish and Setbox) for UK Television for most people.
Irish Digital Compatible

---

Compatible with Irish Digital Television, including Interactive Text and 7 day Guide, but not Certified.
UK Freeview HD Compatible -- Will receive "Freeview" and "Freeview HD" in Border or Coastal locations where UK TV can be received via an Aerial. Freesat is recommended (Dish and Setbox) for UK Television for most people. Might be Irish Digital TV compatible

Most "Freeview" (without HD with logo) TVs, even if HD Ready or FULL HD will not work on Irish Digital. None will work on UK "Freeview HD". A + in a logo indicates recording e.g. "Freeview+ HD"

Read this for the logic of the labelling.
http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

Absolutely no set should be ambiguous or unlabelled. Currys, Tesco and Aldi labelling is terrible. Especially Currys given their public claim to have clearly labelled all TVs.

Our man in Havana

Tesco simply have a shelf label saying:

Freeview is not available in the ROI. Sorry for any inconvenience caused.

The place is full of Freeview TVs.

watty

Freeview is actually available to 15% or more (depending on how much bother you go to on big poles and giant aerials) in Ireland. So Tesco can't get that right either.

New Page http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/for-retailers/

Sponge Bob

Tesco and Argos are the WORST TV RETAILERS in IRELAND by far...along with ALDI

Their staff are clueless and don't care either. Most models sold in both of those shops will not work properly in Ireland..ever.

Power City took a right crack at Argos and Currys/PC World today in the Irish Times. I have a few minor quibbles with the ad but there is nothing major or important wrong with it compared to what, say, ALDI do.

watty

A suggestion for retailers: labels to Print for EVERY TV and Terrestrial Set-box / Recorder
http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/for-retailers/

japp

BOUGHT A TEVION 32INCH DIGITAL HD FROM ALDI WOULD NOT GIVE ME VIDEO PICTURES ON IRISH DIGITAL PHONED ALDI HELP LINE, THEY SAID TO SELECT AUSTRIA AS COUNTRY,DID THIS,STILL NO PICTURES, ANYBODY ELSE HAD THIS PROBLEM?

Our man in Havana

Take it back for a refund. It is not fit for purpose.

watty

No Aldi TV to date is Irish Compatible.

Aldi has refunded TVs over a year old
http://www.techtir.ie/blog/cinocat4/no-dtt-get-money-back

You do not need packaging or Receipt. Any proof of purchase is enough.

japp

thanks,are lidl tvs compatible toirish digital?

watty

Only the two most recent ones. All earlier ones not.

Says MPEG4 on box. Some stores still have the 32" model.

Check Power City too as they do free national devlivery and some may be cheaper than Lidl.

japp

took it back to aldi[they didnt know what i was talking about ] got my money,went down to lidl bought their 32inch model with mpeg4 tuner.very pleased with tv excellent sound and picture on all irish channels. thanks forum for good advice:)

Red Alert

Presumably once it does MPEG4 decode of the DVB signal and has MHEG for the guide you're sorted. I find it a bit strange that this unknown "Walker" brand appears to be the only certified one.

Mr McBoatface

Red Alert wrote: »

Presumably once it does MPEG4 decode of the DVB signal and has MHEG for the guide you're sorted. I find it a bit strange that this unknown "Walker" brand appears to be the only certified one.

No not necessarily .

In particular if you are looking to buy a Set Top Box beware - For the HD broadcasts it has to be able to handle Mpeg4 level4, some STB's can only handle SD broadcasts Mpeg4 level3. For example this little gem on ebay will not pick up RTE2 as it's now HD and it will not pick up the other channels when they move to HD in the near future, yet it's being sold for Irish DTT.

There is also the now notorious Panasonic G10B range with a MPEG4 HD tuner which is technically capable of receiving both Freesat and Saorview but Panasonic used a poor firmware which stopped these TV's from receiving Saorview as soon as RTENL switch on the correct identification flags within the broadcast signal. Panasonic refuses to release an easy fix firmware update for these TV's claiming that the TV where only intended for the UK and not Ireland - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056081158.

Also some Philips models are also having problems - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056123899

Walker TV's are actually quiet decent, they are actually made by Vestel who make TV's for several major manufacturers and stick the big name badge on them so you pay extra. They have got the same warranty as any other brand on the market.

Personally If buying a new TV for Saorview I'd get a Samsung or Walker.

watty

Or possibly Sony or LG. But check the Model. Some shops selling obsolete 3 year old models.

"Freeview" usually doesn't work, even if an HD Ready or Full HD TV.
"Freeview HD" does work, though some have program guide issues.

More Certified models soon. Full launch is May 2011.

Samsung and Triax should have some certified models soon.

Don't buy a "Freeview" TV, or CAM adaptor or Box on the "Black list":
http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/the-black-list/

Not all Walkers or Vestel work.

There are TVs and boxes 100% compatible, but not certified.

Who is Walker?
Walker is the Management buyout of the "Black Diamond" Distribution in Ireland long after Mitsubishi stopped making them and they were all re-badged Vestel (top Turkish Electronics company and they make over 20% of TVs and Setboxes sold in Europe, virtually all Re-badged well known names).

see http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/possible-saorview-logo

Red Alert

I did think the Walker TV's had a very similar case to my own LG and many Samsungs.

watty

LG and Samsung are NOT Vestel. They are Korean.

watty

It's January 6th as I write, Russian Christmas starts tomorrow, "Women's Christmas" today.

ASO (Analogue switch off) is now less than two years.

A TV has to be "fit for purpose" for at least two years.

TVs that don't work on Irish Digital are now "Not fit for purpose" as new sales other than CLEARLY labelled as a monitor
http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/for-retailers/

Watch out for Sneaky Retailers!
Maplin has a range of Portable TVs with Analogue and Digital. NONE of these work on "Freeview HD" or on Irish Digital TV at all. They are feeding them all from a set-top box and claim they are compatible because you can use a set-box. They are not.
1) To be a "TV" a receiver must have a tuner (built in or external aerial) that works on Irish Digital TV (Saorview).
2) A portable TV is certainly not portable if it uses a Set-box.
3) Technically within two years these products will only work as Video monitors for PAL composite video. Not even RGB, PC or HD.
http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/05/aso-in-less-than-two-years/
There does not appear to be a single compatible TV in Maplin.

TVs that are not compatible are now Monitors

The Black List! http://www.saortv.info/theserrestrial-saorview/the-black-list/

If a TV was sold you inside last two years and did not have a disclaimer that it was Analogue only, you can get a refund/replacement. http://www.techtir.ie/blog/cinocat4/no-dtt-get-money-back

If a TV sold to you from Jan 2011 as TV rather than Video Monitor no matter what other disclaimer you can get a refund if it doesn't work with Irish Digital, including AAC+ and HD. http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/05/aso-in-less-than-two-years/ (or possibly since 1st Nov 2010 as ASO might be Nov 2012 and Service Launced on Oct 29th 2010 after over 2 years of transmissions). If it does not support the new text on RTE2HD channel, then it's not fully compatible and needs a disclaimer.

MHEG5 is part of spec. Plenty of cheap set-boxes and TVs support all the Irish Spec apart from being certified.

keithclancy

So if someone purchases a DVB-T TV that doesnt do MHEG5 then you can get a refund ?

How is the retailer supposed to know whats going to be implemented ?

Or for example if you buy a DVB-T TV from Germany or the UK how is the retailer there supposed to know if the TV is fit for purpose in Ireland are they meant to jam stickers all over it for each country ?

Wouldn't it just be easier NOT to sell to Ireland.

watty

No, only if they don't have a disclaimer.
MHEG5 is NOT just fancier Teletext. It's mandatory part of DTT spec. Lots of Makers do have it working.

All UK "Freeview HD" sets have MHEG5 and should work here. Many sets that are not "Freeview HD" or "Saorview" certified actually do everything in the Spec.

The Retailers and Manufacturers were told over two years before last 29th October 2010 launch of service of the specfications.

MHEG5 requires no extra hardware (unlike Teletext did at launch and for many years) and has no Royalties.

TVs state quite clearly in spec what they do. During Analogue Era you would not have liked a TV intended for France, or Russia. No Picture. Many analogue Era German TVs would give picture here and no sound.

US, South American, Chinese, Canadian, Japanese Market Digital TVs don't work here at all. It's up to manufacturers, distributers, wholesale and Retail to work together to ensure suitable equipment. The Spec is more common than Analogue Era. Do you know how few countries used PAL I? No-one in Mainland Europe.

MHEG5 users:
Ireland Saorview, UK Freeview(all versions), and Freesat(all versions), TVB Hong Kong, Australia, Germany (TechniSat), India – Digicable (cable pay-TV operator), New Zealand (Program Guide/EPG instead of DVB), and South Africa. Possible deployment in Turkey and Malaysia.
With over 60 manufacturers and a global supply chain, MHEG-5 has been deployed in tens of millions of receivers worldwide and the numbers continue to rise as new markets and platforms adopt the technology.
via http://www.impala.org/deployments

Ireland uses the UK profile of MHEG5.

Also the replacement spec for CI (the CAM slot mandated in Europe on all TVs over certain size, and used on any set-box that allows choice of pay-Tv operator), is CI+ and includes as mandatory, MHEG5 and MHP.

None of the Irish Digital TV specs are onerous. We have HD as part of spec from the Beginning. The UK now has three DTT specs. Pre-Freeview DTT boxs, Freeview (both no HD) and the new DVB-T2 spec (only trialled over a year after our rollout started!) for "Freeview HD".

In Analogue Era if you got a German TV with Menus in German and no Sound (PAL B/G) from an Irish retailer you of course took it back and got a replacement or refund. So nothing has changed.

If you bought from outside Ireland you did research to make sure that what you would buy would work. You realise virtually nothing with Analogue or Digital Video intended for North American Domestic market ever worked or will work in Europe? While having TVs, VHS or DVD in Ireland that work on PAL-I and NTSC is common, non-NTSC support is rare on North American Market.

Savage_Henry

watty wrote: »

TVs that are not compatible are now Monitors

but you`d still need to pay tv license for those "monitors", right?

Our man in Havana

Until the day of ASO.