A Warning to ALL TV Buyers. Flood of UK surplus TVs on market.

slimjimmc

Savage_Henry wrote: »

but you`d still need to pay tv license for those "monitors", right?

Haddockman wrote: »

Until the day of ASO.

Broadcasting Act 2009

“ television set ” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

A saorview-incompatible monitor connected to a set-top decoder or cable/satellite service is by definition a TV set and will still require a licence.

Without the set-top box or cable/satellite service your saorview-incompatible monitor will no longer capable of displaying broadcasts and does not need a licence after ASO.

RangeR

slimjimmc wrote: »

A saorview-incompatible monitor connected to a set-top decoder or cable/satellite service is by definition a TV set and will still require a licence.

Without the set-top box or cable/satellite service your saorview-incompatible monitor will no longer capable of displaying broadcasts and does not need a licence after ASO.

In that instance, it's the STB that needs the license.

Savage_Henry

finally!
as I dont use tv for tv at all - just for movies from PC.
only problem is that the world ends in 2012 anyway

watty

"TV licences" are defined differently from "Television sets".

1) One Licence covers any number of apparatus in your home.
2) It doesn't matter if you never watch TV, if it's technically a TV receiving system (apparatus) then a licence is needed.
3) Separate Tuner (e.g. VHS) and Monitor has always counted as a TV.
4) Tuner stick or card on Laptop or PC counts as TV for Licence
5) Real IPTV such as Homevision, Magnet or Smart counts as TV reception, Web TV / Internet TV isn't TV reception, nor is HD quality VOD. Cable, Satellite, Fibre delivered TV need a TV licence

This thread isn't about the rights & wrongs of RTE, TV licence system, Pay TV vs FTA TV or Digital vs Analogue vs VOD. It's about helping people get refunds and avoiding getting ripped off by either ignorant or dishonest retailers.

Plenty of threads here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=58 to give out about TV licence or in After Hours to give out about RTE.

watty

A TV has to be "fit for purpose" (i.e. TV signal via aerial socket) for at least two years. Analogue may be turned off in some places Oct/Nov 2012, everywhere by end of 2012. Thus it is not feasible since January 2011, and possibly since October 2010 to sell an Analogue only TV any more. It's not "fit for purpose" for at least two years.

If the TV has Digital as well as Analogue and sold before January 2011 inside the last two years then if it doesn't work on Irish Digital, the Retailer is liable for replace/Refund unless they specifically labelled that for Ireland that it is Analogue Only.

A notice with "Freeview is not available in Ireland" doesn't protect the Retailer, because that doesn't specifically point out that the Digital part of the set doesn't work (Many Freeview sets are fully compatible) and also about 15% of people in Ireland can get Freeview overspill (You listening Tesco?).


Even if something is a great bargain, if it's advertised as a TV it has to work in a reasonable fashion as a TV (fit for purpose). I don't know if the Backlight makes the TV fail this. I suspect it's just poor rather than unacceptable.

axer

watty wrote: »

A TV has to be "fit for purpose" (i.e. TV signal via aerial socket) for at least two years.

Where does it mention 2 years in law?
Also a TV is not only for picking up aerial signals - many people buy them to use with a sat receiver or a games console so I cannot agree with with your assertion. If, however, a person makes it clear to the sales person that they will need it for watching TV via aerial there might be a case but I have never seen 2 years mentioned in law (although I am open to correction).

Sponge Bob

Not explicitly Axer, however a TV should do the job for at least 2 years ...ie pick up channels and display them on the screen. It is a reasonable interpretation of the "fit for the purpose" clause.

What you described for gaming or satbox related use is a Monitor not a TV

axer

Sponge Bob wrote: »

not explicitly Axer, however a TV should do the job for at least 2 years ...ie pick up channels and display them on the screen.

What you described for gaming or satbox related use is a Monitor not a TV

Televisions are very comonly used for games consoles and sat boxes - this does not stop it being called a TV.

Also I dont know where you are getting the 2 year figure but I think it would be very hard to get a refund via the courts for not fit for purpose if the purpose was not mentioned to the sales person - even if it was how does one prove it was.

watty

Quick Survey 7th January 2011

Tesco
I think some models work. But you would need to check each model online.
BUT
No ASO info
Staff refuse to discuss: Claim only Head Office and Dept of Consumer Affairs can be involved in Survey. (Shops don't get warned if someone is going to test to see if they selling cigarettes and Alcohol illegally).
No labelling other than "Freeview is not available in Ireland". Which is not a Disclaimer for "Digital on this TV doesn't Work"
No model specific labels.

Argos:
No labelling or ASO info posted in store:
BUT
Staff have been told to tell "ALL TV purchasers that Analogue only Sets will stop working and they need irish Compatible Digital TV, which means MPEG4".
New Catalogue in two weeks is supposed to Identify "Irish Compatible" TVs.

So
Tesco Total Fail
Argos Shows good Staff Awareness. Poor Instore Labelling. We will see in two weeks time.

Sponge Bob

axer wrote: »

Televisions are very comonly used for games consoles and sat boxes - this does not stop it being called a TV.

Yes but as the tuner is not being used it is a Monitor not a TV.

Also I dont know where you are getting the 2 year figure but I think it would be very hard to get a refund via the courts for not fit for purpose if the purpose was not mentioned to the sales person - even if it was how does one prove it was.

Actually it would be a doddle. Anybody buying a TV after the 1st of January 2011 would get a full refund if their TV signal disappeared on them before the 1st of January 2013 if they brought the matter to the Small Claims court.

Retailers selling non compatible TVs are on the very thinnest of ice now. The product cannot possibly work "as described", namely as a TV, for 2 years seeing as analogue will be turned off within 2 years.

If they sold these non compatible ( typically UK spec) TVs as Monitors from now on they would be in the clear...but they sell them as TVs.

watty

It's not what you deploy for at some stage that counts. It's what it is sold as.

It's been established what kind of minimum life is reasonable for all kinds of consumer items. The Retailer's or Manufacturer's Warranty period can't over-ride your statutory rights.

In fact in Small Claims court with a "Quality" TV you might even get extension on the two years... Like 42" TVs sold for €1,200 (you can get a Irish Compatible 42" Full HDTV for about €450!). It depends too if the fault is intrinsic or "normal wear and tear".

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If they sold these non compatible ( typically UK spec) TVs as Monitors from now on they would be in the clear...but they sell them as TVs.

Argos has told their staff to warn customers. They understand!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69928313&postcount=96

MrVestek

So hold on... I bought a TV from Dixons in Liffey Valley in roughly April of 2009... am I entitled to have this TV exchanged to a TV that will support Saorview?

My TV is only Mpeg2 DVB-T compatible, so UK freeview.

I can pick up the irish radio stations but don't get any picture on the TV stations.

watty

Depends if they had a disclaimer saying it would NOT work with Irish Digital and only suitable for Irish Analogue TV. If the TV was clearly labelled as "Digital" then they needed a disclaimer saying the digital feature will never work and it's only an Analogue TV.

Pointing out that we don't have "Freeview" is irrelevant.

Aldi have refunded Tvs over a year old last year.

RTE/RTE NL finalised the Spec in December 2008. The basics known at start of 2008, no change since February 2008. That's nearly three years ago. In reality any manufacturer/Importer paying attention would have realised by late 2006 that MPEG4, HD and MHEG5 (UK profile) fairly likely.

CEDA, Retailers etc warned by Government in 2008.

via http://www.rte.ie/saorview/receiving.html

... the technical requirements for Irish digital terrestrial television (DTT) (now SAORVIEW) receivers were first published by the Department of Communications Energy and Natural Resources in February 2008. ...

... In December 2008 RTÉ published its Minimum Receiver Requirements. It subsequently appointed a company to test receivers for compliance with the these requirements and instigated an approval process for manufacturers. RTÉ did not add any further technical requirements beyond what was already required in the Department’s specification ...

... Key elements of the receiver specification include the following:

1. The receiver needs to be capable of decoding both Standard Definition (SD) and High Definition (HD) MPEG 4 signals. This is important as RTÉ is planning to replace its current SD RTÉ Two service with an RTÉ Two HD service on SAORVIEW. More HD services are likely to follow in the future.

2. The receiver needs to have MHEG5 middleware to decode RTÉ’s proposed new Digital Aertel Service and other possible interactive services. ...

Everything here http://www.saortv.info/news/ including side bar links to ALL the offical sites.

Tesco fain ignorance (their "Freeview is not available in Ireland" signs would not save them in small claims court) and Maplin are being devious with "RTE2 News Now" (sole Saorview only channel) feeding all their incompatible Portable TVs (Analogue and MPEG2 only DTT) from an un-certified set-box that costs same as certified one of same spec.

axer

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Actually it would be a doddle. Anybody buying a TV after the 1st of January 2011 would get a full refund if their TV signal disappeared on them before the 1st of January 2013 if they brought the matter to the Small Claims court.

Retailers selling non compatible TVs are on the very thinnest of ice now. The product cannot possibly work "as described", namely as a TV, for 2 years seeing as analogue will be turned off within 2 years.

If they sold these non compatible ( typically UK spec) TVs as Monitors from now on they would be in the clear...but they sell them as TVs.

I completely disagree. The TVs are not being sold as DTT tvs. The TV's will still pick up a UHF/VHF signal from an aerial as is shown on specifications lists. Ignorance is no excuse unless you specifically rely on the expert advice i.e. I ask the sales person - will this tv work with DTT and if they tell me yes then I have a case.

You do not need an aerial to use a TV, satellite boxes and DTT boxes can be used to pick up the TV signal. I dont see a case here.

axer

watty wrote: »

It's not what you deploy for at some stage that counts. It's what it is sold as.

Exactly so if a TV was sold as a DTT TV and it could not work as one then there would be an issue. If a TV is not a DTT TV and not sold as one then there is no issue.

watty wrote: »

It's been established what kind of minimum life is reasonable for all kinds of consumer items. The Retailer's or Manufacturer's Warranty period can't over-ride your statutory rights.

In fact in Small Claims court with a "Quality" TV you might even get extension on the two years... Like 42" TVs sold for €1,200 (you can get a Irish Compatible 42" Full HDTV for about €450!). It depends too if the fault is intrinsic or "normal wear and tear".

Ok, dont see the relevance. I also do not know where this 2 year figure is coming from - looks like it is being pulled out of the air.

watty

Fortunately you don't make the rules.

From January 2011 even Analogue only TVs fail "fit for purpose" unless they are marketed purely as Monitors.

If it doesn't work via Aerial Socket, it's a monitor. I've used Video Monitors with external tuners since 1976. They are not TVs. An Analogue tuner will not be functional after 2012. Possibly even October 2012 in some places.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69930150&postcount=98

The two years?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/pricewatch/2010/0517/1224270540798.html

The law is very clear in cases such as this. While Ireland is exempt from the European Union Directive 1999/44/EC mentioned by our reader, consumers have full protection under the Sale of Goods Act.

The act states very clearly that products must be fit for purpose, of merchantable quality and as described for a reasonable amount of time after purchase – and by any definition, it is reasonable to assume that a TV that costs more than €800 will last for more than two years. If it doesn’t, then the consumer is entitled to a repair, a replacement or a refund. The manufacturer’s warranty is entirely irrelevant in cases such as this.

Another point worth making is that the person’s contract is with Tesco and no one else. We contacted the National Consumer Agency, which confirmed that our reader’s friend was covered under the Sale of Goods Act. We were told that the first course of action would be to talk to the management in Tesco. If the company refuses to alter its stance, then our reader was advised to put the complaint in writing and send it via registered mail. If no satisfactory response was forthcoming, the next step is the Small Claims Court.

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/Tip_Of_The_Week/Tips_Archive/Digital_TV_in_2011.html

Whenever you buy goods, you make a contract with the shop or seller who sold them to you. The seller agrees to provide certain goods to you for a certain price, and those goods should be:

* Of "merchantable quality" – this means that they must be of an acceptable standard
* Fit for the purpose they were bought for
* As described. In other words, false or exaggerated claims must not be made by the seller

If the goods fail to comply with any of these criteria - for example, if they turn out to be faulty - you have certain clear rights under consumer legislation. These entitlements are known as the three R's:

* Repair
* Replacement
* Refund

Replacements and refunds

Any replacement offered should be the same as the item you bought, or of similar quality and price.

You should not have to pay extra for a replacement and should be entitled to the difference in value if the replacement is less expensive.

If they offer a refund, this can be in cash or by cheque, or (where appropriate) they can refund your credit card account.

If they offer you a credit note or voucher instead, it is your right not to take it and request a refund instead.

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/Print-versions-of-guides/NCA-shopping-guide.html

... Therefore you may, if the reasonable lifetime of a given product exceeds the time period of any warranty, pursue the seller in respect of your statutory rights - 'The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980'. If the trader refuses to offer redress for the faulty goods and you have exhausted all other options you may wish to pursue the matter with the Small Claims Court.

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/FAQs/Faulty-goods/

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/index.html
Claims for Damages or even replacement/Refund can actually extend to SIX years..

“(d) An action for damages under section 13 (7) of the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980, shall not be brought after the expiration of two years from the date on which the cause of action accrued.”;


(II) by the insertion in section 49 of the following subsection—

“(5) In the case of an action claiming damages under section 13 (7) of the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980, subsection (1) of this section shall have effect as if for the words ‘six years’ there were substituted the words ‘two years’.”.

Also

Sale by description.


13.—(1) Where there is a contract for the sale of goods by description, there is an implied condition that the goods shall correspond with the description; and if the sale be by sample as well as by description, it is not sufficient that the bulk of the goods corresponds with the sample if the goods do not also correspond with the description.


(2) A sale of goods shall not be prevented from being a sale by description by reason only that, being exposed for sale, they are selected by the buyer.


(3) A reference to goods on a label or other descriptive matter accompanying goods exposed for sale may constitute or form part of a description.


Implied undertakings as to quality or fitness.


14.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act and of any statute in that behalf, there is no implied condition or warranty as to the quality or fitness for any particular purpose of goods supplied under a contract of sale.


(2) Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business there is an implied condition that the goods supplied under the contract are of merchantable quality, except that there is no such condition—


(a) as regards defects specifically drawn to the buyer's attention before the contract is made, or


(b) if the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, as regards defects which that examination ought to have revealed.


(3) Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly.


(4) Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business and the buyer, expressly or by implication, makes known to the seller any particular purpose for which the goods are being bought, there is an implied condition that the goods supplied under the contract are reasonably fit for that purpose, whether or not that is a purpose for which such goods are commonly supplied, except where the circumstances show that the buyer does not rely, or that it is unreasonable for him to rely, on the seller's skill or judgement.

axer

watty wrote: »

Fortunately you don't make the rules.

From January 2011 even Analogue only TVs fail "fit for purpose" unless they are marketed purely as Monitors.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69930150&postcount=98

and you dont either. Have you anything to back up your assertion that:

watty wrote: »

From January 2011 even Analogue only TVs fail "fit for purpose" unless they are marketed purely as Monitors.

MrVestek

Hrmmm so what would I need? I doubt I still have the TV receipt... although they did take my details at point of sale.

watty

All above. TVs have to last for more than 2 years. The Definition (unless changed) of the packaging and Store calls it a TV. That means it has to receive via an aerial socket. Under the legislation the packaging is part of the Contract. The Retailer has to specifically label it that that Analogue will cease within 2 years and the TV will only then be a Monitor.

There is no doubt or uncertainty at all about non-compatible TVs sold since January. Incompatible TVs that are sold in past two years advertised as Digital on the packaging, without a disclaimer, are almost certainly also covered. I'd be 100% confident of Small claims court. This is why M&S, Aldi, Argos, Lidl and others HAVE been refunding or replacing TVs quietly when people return and complain. Even before last October in some cases. Tesco's "Freeview" disclaimer is the wrong wording. I'd not have huge confidence in that if I was Tesco in Small Claims court.

watty

According to NCA any proof of purchase. Cheque? Credit Card Statement?

MrVestek

watty wrote: »

According to NCA any proof of purchase. Cheque? Credit Card Statement?

I paid in cash.

Arse.

axer

watty wrote: »

All above. TVs have to last for more than 2 years. The Definition (unless changed) of the packaging and Store calls it a TV. That means it has to receive via an aerial socket. Under the legislation the packaging is part of the Contract. The Retailer has to specifically label it that that Analogue will cease within 2 years and the TV will only then be a Monitor.

There is no doubt or uncertainty at all about non-compatible TVs sold since January. Incompatible TVs that are sold in past two years advertised as Digital on the packaging, without a disclaimer, are almost certainly also covered. I'd be 100% confident of Small claims court. This is why M&S, Aldi, Argos, Lidl and others HAVE been refunding or replacing TVs quietly when people return and complain. Even before last October in some cases. Tesco's "Freeview" disclaimer is the wrong wording. I'd not have huge confidence in that if I was Tesco in Small Claims court.

Maybe but I see no evidence from you to back up your claims - only speculation.

watty

Proof of identity and hope you are still on their system?

watty

Ring NCA if you refuse to read and believe what is posted. Speak to lawyer.

Our man in Havana

Meanwhile in Dixons someone is typing into a computer:

C:\>del *.* /y

axer

watty wrote: »

Ring NCA if you refuse to read and believe what is posted. Speak to lawyer.

Im not the one making claims.

MrVestek

watty wrote: »

Proof of identity and hope you are still on their system?

I might just do that. I must remember to pay with a card from now on, heh.

keithclancy

axer wrote: »

Maybe but I see no evidence from you to back up your claims - only speculation.

I agree, this fit for purpose thing on the retailer doesnt ring true, i.e. its not fit for purpose, just because the provider decided to discontinue the service.

I mean, should you get a refund on your flexfuel car that you bought six months ago if their phasing out E85 now ?

Your car will still run on E85, its just that the provider has chosen to stop supplying it.

IMO the specifications of a device are clearly advertised on the box, unless the retailer claims its compatible for a particular service then the customer has no comeback.

cast_iron

keithclancy wrote: »

I mean, should you get a refund on your flexfuel car that you bought six months ago if their phasing out E85 now ?

If the government stated 6 months ago that the fuel won't be available on a certain date in the future and the retailer knew this, surely there should be an onus on him/her to advise of this. The retailer is the one profiting from this, and is the expert in the area. You can't expect an old woman to be up on the latest MPEG4 jargon.

It's called consumer protection - forcing the retailer to be proactive on the matter. Not everyone is a know-it-all.

The very least a retailer should do is state that the TV will not work as a TV in 2 years time. That is fact.