A Warning to ALL TV Buyers. Flood of UK surplus TVs on market.

axer

cast_iron wrote: »

That is fact.

but not law.

cast_iron

axer wrote: »

but not law.

The fact that the government are switching off analogue by Jan 2012 could not be a law. It's a stated fact.

It would make no sense to make such a statement into a law.

tommy21

cast_iron wrote: »

The fact that the government are switching off analogue by Jan 2012 could not be a law. It's a stated fact.

It would make no sense to make such a statement into a law.

What he is saying (I think!) is that while it would be a fair outcome, no doubt it will be the consumer gets shafted. Just because it is the right thing to do does not mean it will be done.

cast_iron

tommy21 wrote: »

What he is saying (I think!) is that while it would be a fair outcome, no doubt it will be the consumer gets shafted. Just because it is the right thing to do does not mean it will be done.

Despite Watty showing the legislation, he doesn't seem to either understand it or he hasn't read it. Consumer law is quite clear on this area.

axer

cast_iron wrote: »

Despite Watty showing the legislation, he doesn't seem to either understand it or he hasn't read it. Consumer law is quite clear on this area.

No, this type of situation does not even come up in law i.e. where the product works perfect but due to changes by a third party, there is no signal to be picked up in the rep of Ireland. While I do think it is somewhat underhand for a retailer to be selling tvs in ireland that will require an extra device to work with DTT it is not against the law to do so.

(3) Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly.

(4) Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business and the buyer, expressly or by implication, makes known to the seller any particular purpose for which the goods are being bought, there is an implied condition that the goods supplied under the contract are reasonably fit for that purpose, whether or not that is a purpose for which such goods are commonly supplied, except where the circumstances show that the buyer does not rely, or that it is unreasonable for him to rely, on the seller's skill or judgement.

Sigh, lets break it down.

Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought
A TV that only works with UHF/VHF is fit for the purpose of picking up signals from aerials that picks up UHF/VHF signals it should not be expected to be able to deal with DTT.

and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly.
As long as the TV can operate properly then it is durable. It is irrelevant if there is no signal being picked up by the aerial for it to display - thats no the TV's fault so the TV remains of merchantable quality i.e. it is working.

(4) Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business and the buyer, expressly or by implication, makes known to the seller any particular purpose for which the goods are being bought, there is an implied condition that the goods supplied under the contract are reasonably fit for that purpose, whether or not that is a purpose for which such goods are commonly supplied, except where the circumstances show that the buyer does not rely, or that it is unreasonable for him to rely, on the seller's skill or judgement.
UHF/VHF tv's can pick up RTE 1, Network 2, TV3 and TG4 right now perfectly. Nowhere in law does it say how long something should be fit for its purpose. The TV is durable if it can continue to do what it was made to do i.e. pick up UHF/VHF signals and display the picture/output the audio. If when the system changes to DTT and someone sells you a TV that you let them know was to watch RTE1, Network 2, TV3 or TG4 then you would have a case but not for TVs purchased before the system changes.

Before quoting this section watty quotes from section 13.8 of the sale of goods act which is in relation to motor vehicles only - but i'm the one who doesn't understand the law?

cast_iron

axer wrote: »

Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought
A TV that only works with UHF/VHF is fit for the purpose of picking up signals from aerials that picks up UHF/VHF signals it should not be expected to be able to deal with DTT.

This makes my point quite well. Goods of that kind are commonly bought to pick up tv signals. The seller knows that after 2 years, the product will not do that. The person is buying it to potentially watch tv signals on it for more than 2 years. Therefore, the tv is not fit for purpose, and therefore by definition, not of merchantable quality.

axer

cast_iron wrote: »

This makes my point quite well. Goods of that kind are commonly bought to pick up tv signals. The seller knows that after 2 years, the product will not do that. The person is buying it to potentially watch tv signals on it for more than 2 years. Therefore, the tv is not fit for purpose, and therefore by definition, not of merchantable quality.

Show me where it says how long fit for purpose should last. Any TV purchased before analogue is switched off is fit for purpose.

Sponge Bob

axer wrote: »

Show me where it says how long fit for purpose should last. Any TV purchased before analogue is switched off is fit for purpose.

A TV is a consumer durable like a washing machine or dishwasher is. It should last 2 years if cheap....longer if expensive.

Applying a pint of milk test is not very wise. :cool:

axer

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A TV is a consumer durable like a washing machine or dishwasher is. It should last 2 years if cheap....longer if expensive.

Just because there is no signal to pick up doesnt mean the TV doesnt work. By durable we are talking about not being faulty.

A perfect example here is the blueray vs hd-dvd battle recently. If someone had purchased a hd-dvd player a year before blueray won - does that mean people should get a refund for their hd-dvd player?

watty

Compatible TVs are easily available, but some (many?) retailers have deliberately kept staff and consumers in ignorance for nearly three years and have been dumping obsolete stock in Ireland without a disclaimer that the Digital on them will never work and the Analogue will stop working end of 2012.

RTE/RTE NL finalised the Spec in December 2008. The basics known at start of 2008, no change since February 2008. That's nearly three years ago. In reality any manufacturer/Importer paying attention would have realised by late 2006 that MPEG4, HD and MHEG5 (UK profile) fairly likely.

CEDA, Retailers etc warned by Government in 2008.

via http://www.rte.ie/saorview/receiving.html

... the technical requirements for Irish digital terrestrial television (DTT) (now SAORVIEW) receivers were first published by the Department of Communications Energy and Natural Resources in February 2008. ...

... In December 2008 RTÉ published its Minimum Receiver Requirements. It subsequently appointed a company to test receivers for compliance with the these requirements and instigated an approval process for manufacturers. RTÉ did not add any further technical requirements beyond what was already required in the Department’s specification ...

... Key elements of the receiver specification include the following:

1. The receiver needs to be capable of decoding both Standard Definition (SD) and High Definition (HD) MPEG 4 signals. This is important as RTÉ is planning to replace its current SD RTÉ Two service with an RTÉ Two HD service on SAORVIEW. More HD services are likely to follow in the future.

2. The receiver needs to have MHEG5 middleware to decode RTÉ’s proposed new Digital Aertel Service and other possible interactive services. ...

Everything here http://www.saortv.info/news/ including side bar links to ALL the offical sites.

axer

watty wrote: »

Compatible TVs are easily available, but some (many?) retailers have deliberately kept staff and consumers in ignorance for nearly three years and have been dumping obsolete stock in Ireland without a disclaimer that the Digital on them will never work and the Analogue will stop working end of 2012.

RTE/RTE NL finalised the Spec in December 2008. The basics known at start of 2008, no change since February 2008. That's nearly three years ago. In reality any manufacturer/Importer paying attention would have realised by late 2006 that MPEG4, HD and MHEG5 (UK profile) fairly likely.

CEDA, Retailers etc warned by Government in 2008.

via http://www.rte.ie/saorview/receiving.html


Everything here http://www.saortv.info/news/ including side bar links to ALL the offical sites.

Yawn...Still haven't proved anything. I don't agree with it but nobody will have the right to return the TV unless incorrect information was provided (might be hard to prove). This does not fall under not fit for purpose.

Unless you can provide real evidence to back up your claim I will have to leave it at that as we are already going around in circles and you are just posting the same information again and again.

cast_iron

axer wrote: »

Show me where it says how long fit for purpose should last. Any TV purchased before analogue is switched off is fit for purpose.

I didn't say should last for any length of time. That wasn't my point.

I've made my point illustrating my reasoning. You have provided none, just basically said I'm wrong and not disproved my points.

japp

just saw this morning on flier from macro's belfast they're selling sony kdl40ex403freeviewhd for £329 would this tv have mpeg4 tuner and what value would be for irish viewer?

watty

Should work on Saorview. All "Freeview HD" stuff has MPEG4. Only some "Freeview" (even if a Full HDTV) that is intended also for newer DTT outside UK has MPEG4 as basic "Freeview" is MPEG2 only.

Check Irish Store pricing of Samsung and LG TVs.

If you can pick up Welsh or NI TV via aerial, it's also useful
www.saortv.info
http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

japp

thanks for quick reply. i live in west galway but have relations in n.ireland

Sponge Bob

Time to do a round of stores to check their product labelling policies. I will be following Wattys basic principals on correct product labelling as outlined HERE

keithclancy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Time to do a round of stores to check their product labelling policies. I will be following Wattys basic principals on correct product labelling as outlined HERE

How can that site recommend retailers to put these SAORVIEW compatible stickers when Saorview is only certified to work on:

* Walker WP10DTP & WP11DTP set top box receivers
* Walker WPxx (19”-46”) MP4 range of iDTV sets


I.E a Manufacturer cannot certify itself.

Consumers should be aware that the majority of UK "Freeview" boxes and iDTVs will not decode the SAORVIEW service (as they use the MPEG 2 standard) and that unapproved receivers may not be fully compatible with all aspects of the SAORVIEW service.

If the retailer when making claims that devices are SAORVIEW compatible/certified they are only asking themselves for trouble.

watty

No. Read site carefully

There are NO "Saorview Compatible" Stickers on that site. Either a TV is Saorview Certified and thus Irish Digital Compatible or Irish Digital Compatible (not certified) or isn't any use at all for Irish Digital. (There is grey area actually, but that's confusing for Public and allows some Retailers to mislead Public of boxes or TVs that "sort of work" to greater or lesser extent). It needs to be Simple. Probably all properly working "Freeview HD" boxes and TVs are Irish Digital Compatible. But often not "Freeview" even if a Full HD TV (though some Freeview HDTVs are probably certifiable, eg. LG xxLD450 and LG xxLE450 series. PowerCity labels fairly well on their website.)

RTÉ site says

Key elements of the receiver specification include the following:

1. The receiver needs to be capable of decoding both Standard Definition (SD) and High Definition (HD) MPEG 4 signals. This is important as RTÉ is planning to replace its current SD RTÉ Two service with an RTÉ Two HD service on SAORVIEW. More HD services are likely to follow in the future.

2. The receiver needs to have MHEG5 middleware to decode RTÉ’s proposed new Digital Aertel Service and other possible interactive services.

The Specifications also list HE-AAC audio

See also http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/ and http://rtenl.ie/dtt.htm
The http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/for-retailers/ site says

In store there should be at least one poster:
Saorview Certified ———— Certified Compatible with Irish Digital Television. Will receive “Freeview” but may not receive “Freeview HD” in Border or Coastal locations where UK TV can be received via an Aerial. Freesat is recommended (Dish and Setbox) for UK Television for most people.
Irish Digital Compatible ——- Compatible with Irish Digital Television, including Interactive Text and 7 day Guide, but not Certified.
UK Freeview HD Compatible — Will receive “Freeview” and “Freeview HD” in Border or Coastal locations where UK TV can be received via an Aerial. Freesat is recommended (Dish and Setbox) for UK Television for most people. Might be Irish Digital TV compatible

and

TVs, PVRs Set-box Certified

You can’t add this logo to any product. It indicates full compatibility certified by RTE NL on basis of passing Teracom AB testing.

You can only put This sticker if the TV already has Saorview logo



If it is compatible but not certified you use this one.

Obviously a retailer is allowed to indicate which products have Saorview Certification in their labelling.

http://powercity.ie/?action=&par=10-12&cat=TV%2C+DVD%2C+CAMERA%2C+COMPUTER+

Indicates which TVs are Irish Compatible and which TVs are Saorview certified.

There will be more Makes and Models. Walker don't have an exclusive.
See here. http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/triax-for-saorview Coming soon to RTE NL's list of boxes.

Sponge Bob

keithclancy wrote: »

If the retailer when making claims that devices are SAORVIEW compatible/certified they are only asking themselves for trouble.

If the retailer is selling UK Freeview compatible kit that does not work here then they are in even more trouble

dockc

Hi Guys

I need some advise - i need to by a 26" telly, I don't have any satellie just one two and TnaG, cant pick up TV3 as we are in a bad area for signal.

I nearly bought one in argos at the wkend when i realised then that it would only work for satellie only.

So im on the look out for one and need some advise on what i should be looking for b4 i go to the shops.

Thanks

RangeR

dockc wrote: »

Hi Guys

I need some advise - i need to by a 26" telly, I don't have any satellie just one two and TnaG, cant pick up TV3 as we are in a bad area for signal.

I nearly bought one in argos at the wkend when i realised then that it would only work for satellie only.

So im on the look out for one and need some advise on what i should be looking for b4 i go to the shops.

Thanks

Not trying to be smart but have you read ANY of this thread?

watty

Argos have loads of TVs that work.
Get the new Spring/Summer Catalogue
See page 374

http://www.wattystuff.net/2011/01/argos-greatly-improve-aso-dso-clarity/

watty

dockc wrote: »

Hi Guys

I need some advise - i need to by a 26" telly, I don't have any satellie just one two and TnaG, cant pick up TV3 as we are in a bad area for signal.

However you likely now get TV3 etc on Digital. You may or may not need a new outdoor UHF Aerial
www.saortv.info

There is a list of Transmitter sites too. More live every month.

Saorview

Like Freeview in the UK, for Northern Ireland Saorview is becoming the Digital Terrestrial platform. The actual Digital Switchover is still managed by Digital UK however this happens in close cooperation with Saorview and the government of Norther Ireland. For the Digital Switchover most - if not all - Freeview boxes do not work and as such retuning and or updating your areal are not adding any additional benefits at this stage. You can keep track of the Saorview updates from the UK Digital Switchover website:

http://www.digitalswitchover.co.uk/ulster.html