Do not Watch RTE One Now!!

Einhard

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Not necessarily. If the bomb in town centers for instance was to damage infrastructure then no, but early comprehensive warnings should have been given, like at Bishopsgate, so everyone could be evacuated. However if the intent was simply to kill innocent people, then yeah.

Nonsense. If you pack explosives into a pub or a town centre with an intent to detonate them, then you have to envisage that civilians will be killed. Going ahead with it nevertheless is conspiracy to murder. Nothing more.

Don't forget there were two sides to this. Very easy to focus just on what the IRA did.

The reason I'm focusing on IRA atrocities is because there are attempts to obfuscate their murderous activities, and deny that they targetted civilians. As I said, the various Unionist groups were equally malign and loathsome, but there's no one here attempting to defend or explain their brutality.

baldbear

I'v a question where in the name of gawd was Dickie Rock tonight?
Wasn't he in the Miami Showband? Spit on me Dickie! classic

FlutterinBantam

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

You will be able to see it on the RTE player early tomorrow I would say.

We all know what happened buddy, no need to wait until tomorrow morning.


This is history, not news.

Wolfe Tone

then you have to envisage that civilians will be killed.

Maybe, but that is not the main aim of it is it?

Wolfe Tone

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

We all know what happened buddy, no need to wait until tomorrow morning.


This is history, not news.

Just trying to be helpful.

TOMASJ

Einhard wrote: »

Evidence please. Provide me with some evidence of the British Army as an institution deliberately targetting innocent civilians.

Just a few days ago a Afghan soldier shot 4 brit soldiers for what he said was the brits army being involved in the murder of children in his country,


You may be aware how long it took the people of Derry to have it proved that their relatives were murdered, they will cover everything up to the hilt.

Einhard

CrackisWhack wrote: »

I didn't say they we're intentional civilian murders either, so you think the war in Iraq is just and fair??

You claimed that the British Army has a policy in Afghanistan and Iraq of deliberately targetting civilians for murder. Now that you can't back that up, you claim that you never stated any such thing...

Anyway, not sure what the wars in the Middle East have to do with IRA/UDA/British Army atrocities in the North, unless they're used as a distraction...

mike65

Is this a "Chucky our law" benefit thread? Strange that its been propogated in this fashion, almost feels like a couple of posters are in campaign mode...odd.

Einhard

TOMASJ wrote: »

Just a few days ago a Afghan soldier shot 4 brit soldiers for what he said was the brits army being involved in the murder of children in his country,

Are you for real? A maniacal soldier shoots four colleagues dead, and this is conclusive proof that the BA is intentionally targetting civilians? This is ridiculous. Incidentally, I wonder why he didn't have an issue with al Queda/Taliban murdering children?

Anyway, as I said, this thread has nothing to do with the Troubles.

You may be aware how long it took the people of Derry to have it proved that their relatives were murdered, they will cover everything up to the hilt.

I am aware. And I condemn those actions as unreservedly as I do the murderous acts of the IRA. Some Republicans on the other hand, seem to think that murders a carried out by the Brits or the Unionists are the only bad types, and when IRA blow a child apart it's all hunky dory. That's what I have an issue with.

BlaasForRafa

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

It was a war.

This is the usual facile line that the Sinn Fein/IRA types trot out. Wars are fought by armies in uniform in the open, the IRA would just as often perform cowardly attacks on civilians rather than go after difficult targets like the British Army.

CrackisWhack

Einhard wrote: »

You claimed that the British Army has a policy in Afghanistan and Iraq of deliberately targetting civilians for murder. Now that you can't back that up, you claim that you never stated any such thing...

Anyway, not sure what the wars in the Middle East have to do with IRA/UDA/British Army atrocities in the North, unless they're used as a distraction...

Go back over my post mate, I said tens of thousands have been killed, I didn't say they were intentional, but you dont drop a 500lb bomb in the centre of Basra and expect no casualties.

Einhard

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Maybe, but that is not the main aim of it is it?

It doesn't matter!! Jesus Christ, how can you not see that?! If you detonate a fucking bomb in a city centre on a Saturday afternoon, then it's fucking murder when civilians are inevitably killed! How can you insist otherwise?!

Even if you can't bring yourself to see the deliberate bombing of town centres as murder, then there's a long list of other atrocities- Kingsmill, Birmingham, Guilford, Enniskillen...I s'pose as long as it's only Prods that are killed it doesn't matter either?!!

FlutterinBantam

This thread is just a vehicle for immature people to use the programme as an excuse to justify their bile and prejudice which in turn generates bile and prejudice on the opposing side.


People like this will never be at ease or accept the other sides point of view.

Thus perpetuating the ring a ring a rosy situation which pervades all threads like this and no one comes out on top.


Just dead bodies piling up.

CrackisWhack

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This is the usual facile line that the Sinn Fein/IRA types trot out. Wars are fought by armies in uniform in the open, the IRA would just as often perform cowardly attacks on civilians rather than go after difficult targets like the British Army.

As did the British army, so by your reasoning, if you haven't got an established military you should just lie down? If people feel the need to fight for there civil rights and believe this is the only way of achieving their goal, they'll do it.

BlaasForRafa

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Go back over my post mate, I said tens of thousands have been killed, I didn't say they were intentional, but you dont drop a 500lb bomb in the centre of Basra and expect no casualties.

On what operation did the British Army (ok I'll be generous here and assume your including the RAF) drop a 500lb bomb on the centre of Basra and what was the outcome of this 500lb bomb attack?

BlaasForRafa

CrackisWhack wrote: »

As did the British army, so by your reasoning, if you haven't got an established military you should just lie down? If people feel the need to fight for there civil rights and believe this is the only way of achieving their goal, they'll do it.

There was another way for them to fight for rights, the peaceful way.

TOMASJ

Einhard wrote: »

Are you for real? A maniacal soldier shoots four colleagues dead, and this is conclusive proof that the BA is intentionally targetting civilians? This is ridiculous. Incidentally, I wonder why he didn't have an issue with al Queda/Taliban murdering children?.

Funny how the guy who kills the brits is a lunny or a maniac, and the invading force (only if from uk us)are heros

FlutterinBantam

Most intelligent people would consider a soldier who kills his colleagues a murderer and a criminal.

Wolfe Tone

Personally when I look at what the IRA have done I go through many thoughts. They range from understanding and respect to anger at the circumstances which made these acts necessary.

But then when I look at other events I shake my head in disgust and horror and question whether anything is worth doing something like that, mostly the answer is no.
I see that some of the IRAs actions were necessary to change the intolerable status quo. Others were not. I condone some of their actions and condemn others.
No one wants people to die, but in wars they do.


The IRA were a product of horrible circumstances and conditions that should never have existed.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There was another way for them to fight for rights, the peaceful way.

They tried that, and were beaten off the streets for their trouble.

mike65

Note to various parties on this thread - the UK/Irish governments and the IRA/UDF/UVF etc all sued for peace.


Get over it.

CrackisWhack

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There was another way for them to fight for rights, the peaceful way.

Which in an Ideal world may actually work.


I'm not condoning the murder of innocent people on either side, i'm just saying its actions and reactions, Its not black & white, the British for centuries have caused alot of problems around the globe and still do today and if we can't rely on a world power to have an image of morality, how can we expect their victims to?

TOMASJ

Einhard wrote: »

It doesn't matter!! Jesus Christ, how can you not see that?! If you detonate a fucking bomb in a city centre on a Saturday afternoon, then it's fucking murder when civilians are inevitably killed! How can you insist otherwise?!

Even if you can't bring yourself to see the deliberate bombing of town centres as murder, then there's a long list of other atrocities- Kingsmill, Birmingham, Guilford, Enniskillen...I s'pose as long as it's only Prods that are killed it doesn't matter either?!!

you should add a few more atrocities to you list Dublin & Monaghan for instance where the good old brit army provided the know how for their loyalist pals to murder civilians on a Saturday afternoon

FlutterinBantam

A lot more people that the British caused problems around the globe pal.

TOMASJ

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Most intelligent people would consider a soldier who kills his colleagues a murderer and a criminal.

or a spy

Wolfe Tone

Einhard wrote: »

It doesn't matter!! Jesus Christ, how can you not see that?! If you detonate a fucking bomb in a city centre on a Saturday afternoon, then it's fucking murder when civilians are inevitably killed! How can you insist otherwise?!

Even if you can't bring yourself to see the deliberate bombing of town centres as murder, then there's a long list of other atrocities- Kingsmill, Birmingham, Guilford, Enniskillen...I s'pose as long as it's only Prods that are killed it doesn't matter either?!!

I wouldnt call it murder because it is not. They phoned in warnings didnt they? The desire was to damage buildings and the economy. They did not want people dead.

Einhard

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Most intelligent people would consider a soldier who kills his colleagues a murderer and a criminal.

Not to mention a coward.

TOMASJ

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

A lot more people that the British caused problems around the globe pal.

Try that again cant make head or tail of it

CrackisWhack

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

A lot more people that the British caused problems around the globe pal.

point?

TOMASJ

Einhard wrote: »

Not to mention a coward.

according to which side you are on ( one mans hero another mans traitor) comes to mind

FlutterinBantam

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Which in an Ideal world may actually work.


I'm not condoning the murder of innocent people on either side, i'm just saying its actions and reactions, Its not black & white, the British for centuries have caused alot of problems around the globe and still do today and if we can't rely on a world power to have an image of morality, how can we expect their victims to?

TOMASJ wrote: »

Try that again cant make head or tail of it

CrackisWhack wrote: »

point?

In reply to the emboldened prose.

try to keep up will you.

rovert

I love the Republicans and their spin in such situations of "it was a perfectly legitimate militaristic manoeuvre " or such twoddle.

CrackisWhack

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

In reply to the emboldened prose.

try to keep up will you.

Well in fairness you havent really addressed the point? you just basically said, well they're not the only ones.

TOMASJ

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

In reply to the emboldened prose.

try to keep up will you.

Sorry old boy it was under my posts and you did not use any quotes

Einhard

This was my post:

Einhard wrote: »

Anyone who deliberately targets innocent civilians is scum. It's simple really. Do you have evidence that the British Army is, as a matter of policy, deliberatley and purposefully murdering civilians today?

This your response:

TOMASJ wrote: »

They at it in Afghanistan every day of the week,

Then:

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Go back over my post mate, I said tens of thousands have been killed, I didn't say they were intentional, but you dont drop a 500lb bomb in the centre of Basra and expect no casualties.

So you did say what you're now claiming not to have said.

Mayo Exile

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This is the usual facile line that the Sinn Fein/IRA types trot out.

.......and the facile line that apologists for state violence (generally in your case the IDF) trot out is.......?

Wars are fought by armies in uniform in the open, the IRA would just as often perform cowardly attacks on civilians rather than go after difficult targets like the British Army.

The most shallow analysis of the conduct of warfare I've read in a while really. So you think all those "uniformed" Wehrmacht soldiers killed by say the French resistance (didnt have a uniform I think) in WWII were cowardly then?

CrackisWhack

rovert wrote: »

I love the Republicans and their spin in such situations of "it was a perfectly legitimate militaristic manoeuvre " or such twoddle.

As opposed to a British army supporter and their spin in such situations "it was a perfectly legitimate militaristic manoeuvre " or such twoddle.


There is spin on both sides, which is very evident in this thread.

FlutterinBantam

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Well in fairness you havent really addressed the point? you just basically said, well they're not the only ones.

The point is my friend, that the OP is using Boards.ie and it's facilities to try to drum up anti British feeling and use an event which happened years ago and which very few condone, to open up old sores and try (and fail) to take the high moral ground.

Most informed and rational people can see through that tactic.

Anything else to add pal?

CrackisWhack

Einhard wrote: »

This was my post:



This your response:



Then:



So you did say what you're now claiming not to have said.

Thats two different posters your qouting mate!

eamo12

rovert wrote: »

I love the Republicans and their spin in such situations of "it was a perfectly legitimate militaristic manoeuvre " or such twoddle.

Ha - hit the nail on the head. The scumbag rebublicans here can't get their heads around the way they murdered deliberately the innocent because they disagreed with their twisted "32 county socialist republic" brand of marxism.

It would be as if I decided to kill one of them (Mussolini for example) in their beds along with their wife and kids for not agreeing with whatever my ideological beliefs are. They are simply not capable of understanding that you can have disagreements in society without resorting to cold-blooded murder. Believe me - I'm a northern Catholic raised in the 70s. I was brainwashed by them with the exact same propaganda as you see on this thread.

Einhard

TOMASJ wrote: »

you should add a few more atrocities to you list Dublin & Monaghan for instance where the good old brit army provided the know how for their loyalist pals to murder civilians on a Saturday afternoon

I DO!!!

I do condemn utterly the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, and Bloody Sunday, and every incident where innocent civilians are targetted for extermination!!!! But nobody is here trying to explain away the activities of the BA or the Unionist paramilitaries in the Troubles!! If there were, I'd take issue with their delusions too!

Now, has that cleared things up for you?

Wolfe Tone

I don't appreciate the way you referred to me as a "scumbag republican" there.

TOMASJ

rovert wrote: »

I love the Republicans and their spin in such situations of "it was a perfectly legitimate militaristic manoeuvre " or such twoddle.

Bet you cant beat him for spin and twaddle Lt. Col. Derek Wilford, check out his interview on RTE day after bloody sunday

CrackisWhack

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The point is my friend, that the OP is using Boards.ie and it's facilities to try to drum up anti British feeling and use an event which happened years ago and which very few condone, to open up old sores and try (and fail) to take the high moral ground.

Most informed and rational people can see through that tactic.

Anything else to add pal?

Its a discussion, which I would have thought was the point of boards.ie my bestest of buds.

Btw I do think the original post could have been constructed better!:pac:

Einhard

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I wouldnt call it murder because it is not. They phoned in warnings didnt they? The desire was to damage buildings and the economy. They did not want people dead.

Ok, this is silly. I think you're just winding me up.

IRA plants bomb in city centre.

IRA bomb blows up.

Civilians die.

a. IRA responsible for the murder of people killed by IRA bomb.

b. IRA not responsible for murder of people killed by IRA bomb.

c. Brits responsible for the murder of people killed by IRA bomb.

I choose a. You seem to choose b. Many others would labour under an even more extreme delusion, and choose c.

Incidentally, you haven't addressed the other IRA massacres I mentioned.

TOMASJ

Einhard wrote: »

I DO!!!

I do condemn utterly the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, and Bloody Sunday, and every incident where innocent civilians are targetted for extermination!!!! But nobody is here trying to explain away the activities of the BA or the Unionist paramilitaries in the Troubles!! If there were, I'd take issue with their delusions too!

Now, has that cleared things up for you?

for sake of balance mention them in post in future

FlutterinBantam

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Its a discussion, which I would have thought was the point of boards.ie my bestest of buds.

Btw I do think the original post could have been constructed better!:pac:

Indeed Indeed!

Contender for understatement of the year I would opine.

Excellent reply in fairness to you.

Wolfe Tone

Einhard wrote: »

Ok, this is silly. I think you're just winding me up.

IRA plants bomb in city centre.

IRA bomb blows up.

Civilians die.

a. IRA responsible for the murder of people killed by IRA bomb.

b. IRA not responsible for murder of people killed by IRA bomb.

c. Brits responsible for the murder of people killed by IRA bomb.

I choose a. You seem to choose b. Many others would labour under an even more extreme delusion, and choose c.

Incidentally, you haven't addressed the other IRA massacres I mentioned.

I refer you back to this post which explains how I feel about the IRA.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67029295&postcount=70

Einhard

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Thats two different posters your qouting mate!

:eek:

You're right! My fault. My mind is so melted by arguments of those seeking to apologists for murder that I'm getting confused!!

CrackisWhack

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I refer you back to this post which explains how I feel about the IRA.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67029295&postcount=70

Excellent post, I would feel very similar about it. The history needs to be learned from and the same mistakes should never be made on both sides.