Gun Club "ban" use of semi-autos & pump actions at club clay shoot

dCorbus

following a proposal by it's new safety officer, who is a registered gun dealer, has banned the use of semi-auto & pump action shot guns at a club clay shoot for "safety reasons"

hey, bunnyshooter, a couple of question's you should find out the answer to first, which may help you get to the bottom of where this lad may be coming from:

1. Was there a fully-"quorumed" and authorised vote of the gun club members or committee taken to bring in this "ban". I wouldn't know anything about the gun club set-up, but this sort of decision cannot have(or at least, shouldn't have) been taken unilaterally or without some sort of approval. If you find out this information, this will give you a good idea of what sort of support this anti-semi decision had.
2. This is the gun clubs new safety officer you say: As an apparently new or recently rejoined member, who elected him god?
3. As the safety officer, what are his qualifications for this role? NRA, NARGC, etc. etc courses and qualifications?
4. As a member, the least you (and the other shooters) can expect is a response to your questions and in this way you'll find out more about the "lay of the land" on this issue.

Can't understand it myself. Safety is paramount - but to "ban" semi-auto shotties in this day and age makes no sense to me.

Manic Moran makes a very good point - I've always thought of a single-trigger double-barrel shotgun in same way as a semi-auto shotgun, in my head at least. The result is the same. Pull the trigger twice - you get two shots. Only difference with a s/a is that you might have the third shell. What other difference is there?

If one was paranoid, one might suspect a conspiracy to get you all to buy non-S/A guns from this self-same RFD / Safety Officer. But, hey, paranoid, moi? never!;):D

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

One of my NARGC affiliated gun clubs following a proposal by it's new safety officer, who is a registered gun dealer, has banned the use of semi-auto & pump action shot guns at a club clay shoot for "safety reasons" :eek:

Any comments, suggestions or possible legal options/implications?

Sheer closed minded ignorance. Any gun is only as safe or unsafe as the person handling it.

riflehunter77

Ask him as been a registered dealer is he going to stop selling semi and pumps as of now. See will his attitude change then.

dCorbus

That's an interesting one indeed.

Ask him as been a registered dealer is he going to stop selling semi and pumps as of now

One way of phrasing it would be: "Are you now satisfied to continue to offer for sale firearms which you believe to be unsafe? and therefore, are you happy to stand liable and responsible for the consequences of the sale, by you, of such firearms which you have on previous occasions publicly deemed and categorised as in some way unsafe?".

That should get an interesting response indeed!:rolleyes::D

Vegeta

A good angle to approach it from Bunny might is the safety one itself.

Which is safer for new members in the club, teaching and observing them using their semi-auto shotguns in a controlled environment like the club clay shoot

Or

Giving no instruction to new members on their safe carriage and usage.

The club clay shoot is one of the best times in the year to give a presentation/lecture on the safe handling of firearms. Don't see this chance wasted.

Hartman

Sparks wrote: »

...

Over usage of facepalm demotivational posters..

Sparks

J.R.

Interesting to see what would happen if someone turned up with one of these - semi, yet breaks like an O/U & only holds two shots?

Beretta semi auto UGB - 25 - EXCEL

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/qa/296677/Have_Beretta_produced_a_breakaction_semiauto_shotgun.html

pullandbang

Madness to "ban" semis at a flapper! The only time they're a nuisance is in squad shoots (DTL etc). Other than that, as long as they are empty (and visibly empty) they're fine.

So to all the semi and pump owners who can't take part in their own club's flapper, you're all welcome to ours!

deeksofdoom

Manic Moran wrote: »

Oftentimes in Ireland I would use a double-barrel which fired the two cartridges sequentially with subsequent pulls of the single trigger. By definition, it also is a semi-automatic firearm. (Although, granted, not a self-loading one) When taking the survey, please don't forget to count personnel who own such weapons as being affected. (And make sure they know it).

Basically a ban on semi-autos and pumps is one which bans any shotgun except for a single-barreled one with no magazine, or a double-barrelled one with two triggers.

That excludes the vast majority of shotguns used by clay pigeon shooters.

NTM

No, thats not going to wash, you have to look at the traditional way of categorizing shotguns not just make your own classifications as you go along.

Vegeta wrote: »

The club clay shoot is one of the best times in the year to give a presentation/lecture on the safe handling of firearms. Don't see this chance wasted.

The club clay shoot is normally an open flapper(non registered) clay shoot. Its not really the time to decide to have a safety training day. Its normally a way of making money for the club.

I don't see how that shoot is going to be a success if the chairman is going to be snobby about what types of guns are used. Me thinks that next year ye'll have a shoot and nobody will turn up because of this attitude, basically you are going to ruin running any type of a club shoot for years to come.

Vegeta

deeksofdoom wrote: »

The club clay shoot is normally an open flapper(non registered) clay shoot. Its not really the time to decide to have a safety training day. Its normally a way of making money for the club.

Didn't get that is was a flapper from bunny's post. Thought it was just his club running an internal competition

My club has 3-5 active members so an open flapper is well beyond us.

shedd7

Is it possible that some of the posters have missed the point? If the ban is for "safety reasons" and it has been proposed by the Safety Officer,why would anyone have a problem with it? I think in some clubs there is a "ban" on pistols being carried in holsters for safety reasons,why does nobody question that one? Another case of people getting up their high horse for no valid reason. As usual,people getting distracted by the type of firearm rather than seeing the big picture i.e. safety of ALL people on the range. I'm pretty sure most posters,like me, don't even know the location of the range,any inherent risk factors. They should,however, be aware that the Safety Officer has a duty to ensure the safety of everyone on the range and his decision must be final regarding what is and isn't safe taking everything into account. Bit like a ref, you may not always agree with his decisions but he has the last word, although in football,hurling,soccer etc. nobody is likely to die if he gets it wrong. You need to cop on,lads.

Dusty87

shedd7 wrote: »

Is it possible that some of the posters have missed the point? If the ban is for "safety reasons" and it has been proposed by the Safety Officer,why would anyone have a problem with it? I think in some clubs there is a "ban" on pistols being carried in holsters for safety reasons,why does nobody question that one? Another case of people getting up their high horse for no valid reason. As usual,people getting distracted by the type of firearm rather than seeing the big picture i.e. safety of ALL people on the range. I'm pretty sure most posters,like me, don't even know the location of the range,any inherent risk factors. They should,however, be aware that the Safety Officer has a duty to ensure the safety of everyone on the range and his decision must be final regarding what is and isn't safe taking everything into account. Bit like a ref, you may not always agree with his decisions but he has the last word, although in football,hurling,soccer etc. nobody is likely to die if he gets it wrong. You need to cop on,lads.

Hello, Bunnys club Safety Officer:D:D:D

marlin vs

Safety officer or dictator.

Manic Moran

No, thats not going to wash, you have to look at the traditional way of categorizing shotguns not just make your own classifications as you go along.

Who is making things up as they go along? The definitions are standard. An automatic weapon will fire more than one round with a single pull of the trigger until either ammunition is expended or the trigger is released, a semi-automatic will fire one round per pull of the trigger until ammunition is expended, and a manual firearm must be manipulated into firing condition before it can shoot the next round, no matter how many times you pull the trigger.

If he puts out a ban on semi-autos, he is also banning two-barreled shotguns with single triggers. Both by the definition of a semi-automatic weapon and by the practical realities of 'it doesn't matter how the gun actually performs its mechanism, the effect of a two-barrel shotgun with one trigger, and a single-barrelled self-loading shotgun with two rounds are exactly the same'

NTM

Manic Moran

If the ban is for "safety reasons" and it has been proposed by the Safety Officer,why would anyone have a problem with it?

I have a problem with it because anyone with the sense God gave the common dog would realise that the prohibition actually achieves nothing in terms of safety and does nothing but prohibit shooters from using commonly-used firearms acceptable to the rules of the sport, even if they are not of a type likely to be chosen by a conservative purist. I could mandate that everyone wear clothes made of bubble wrap for safety, it is about as much benefit and sense to it. It is a ban made by either unfamiliarity, ignorance, or personal dislike.

The appropriate safety measures have been mentioned earlier. They involve loading no more than two rounds and not before your turn to shoot, carrying the weapon in a specific manner when not actively engaged on the firing line, and possibly placing a flag in the chamber to indicate non-functionality, though I admit to never having attended a range where that last was a requirement.

NTM

no12

While on the topic of Semi autos and I dont mean to hijack the thread Courtlough are running a semi auto only shoot in August on the 22nd may be of interest to some of you some great prizes up for grabs sounds like a bit of craic More details attached

bunny shooter

shedd7 wrote: »

Is it possible that some of the posters have missed the point? If the ban is for "safety reasons" and it has been proposed by the Safety Officer,why would anyone have a problem with it? I think in some clubs there is a "ban" on pistols being carried in holsters for safety reasons,why does nobody question that one? Another case of people getting up their high horse for no valid reason. As usual,people getting distracted by the type of firearm rather than seeing the big picture i.e. safety of ALL people on the range. I'm pretty sure most posters,like me, don't even know the location of the range,any inherent risk factors. They should,however, be aware that the Safety Officer has a duty to ensure the safety of everyone on the range and his decision must be final regarding what is and isn't safe taking everything into account. Bit like a ref, you may not always agree with his decisions but he has the last word, although in football,hurling,soccer etc. nobody is likely to die if he gets it wrong. You need to cop on,lads.

I think it is you that has missed the point :rolleyes:

Or as the Dusty reckons is that you *******?

It is a club shoot with a few invited friends etc

The idea about a safety lecture etc is a brilliant one, which I had thought of. Amazing thing is I was previously a safety officer of the club

An EGM is being organised will advise of outcome as soon as

No. 12 I'll bring a copy of that poster to meeting a few of us may even make it to the shoot I reckon

shedd7

Tell you what,next time you go to any form of competition,why not not just tell whoever is in charge that you don't like their rules and you will do it your way:rolleyes: I'm sure they will be happy to let you take part. I would really love to hear from anyone out there who has tried this and got away with it. I really don't think the SO is doing this just for the hell of it, there may be good reasons which we are not aware of. Perhaps NARGC members on here should consider the serious (stupid) accidents which occurred in the last year,one person with a leg amputated below the knee because of a friends carelessness,one person who lost the sight of an eye because of basic failure to follow simple rules while out shooting and another serious injury due to another breach of basic safety rules. I say,well done that Safety Officer, being proactive instead of apologising after some knucklehead with a semi/pump action does someone a serious injury.Oh by the way, I own a p/a myself, and would not be irritated if prohibited from entering a competition,whether club or not. When it comes to shooting,safety must come first at all times,even if it annoys a few people.

Dusty87

Em i think the accidents you refer to happened in the field, and in fog, when people shouldnt have been shooting in the first place. Hardly the SO fault.
Did you read the OP?
Can you tell me why a Semi or pump is more dangerous than a double barrel??

bunny shooter

shedd7 wrote: »

Tell you what,next time you go to any form of competition,why not not just tell whoever is in charge that you don't like their rules and you will do it your way:rolleyes:I'm sure they will be happy to let you take part.

I shoot in a lot of competitions in various disciplinse with various types of firearms bith civilian & military. I always obey the rules as do 99% of those I have shot with/against. I have done a lot of clay shooting with a semi & over & unders and have shot with/against lots of lads using semis & even pumps, imagine it :P and I've seen a lot of stupidity and have been nearly shot twice and I mean really, really NEARLY !!!!! and on both occasions it was lads with over & unders :eek: I understand the rules are there and I understand why BUT the rules have to be sensible too. Presuming that someone who has a semi or pump is dangerous just because they have a pump or a semi is NOT sensible IMHO.

shedd7 wrote: »

I really don't think the SO is doing this just for the hell of it, there may be good reasons which we are not aware of.

He seems reluctant to explain why only semis & pumps are dangerous :rolleyes:

shedd7 wrote: »

Perhaps NARGC members on here should consider the serious (stupid) accidents which occurred in the last year,one person with a leg amputated below the knee because of a friends carelessness,one person who lost the sight of an eye because of basic failure to follow simple rules while out shooting and another serious injury due to another breach of basic safety rules.

It might be interesting to know what type of firearms these people were using A fool with a semi is as dangerous as a fool with an over & under IMO

shedd7 wrote: »

I say,well done that Safety Officer, being proactive instead of apologising after some knucklehead with a semi/pump action does someone a serious injury.

And if a knucklehead with an over & under or a side by side does something stupid he will have less to apologise for? :rolleyes:

shedd7 wrote: »

Oh by the way, I own a p/a myself, and would not be irritated if prohibited from entering a competition,whether club or not.

Sure anyone with a P/A is even more dangerous than someone with a semi :rolleyes: ya must to be a Rambo wannabe so :rolleyes:

shedd7 wrote: »

When it comes to shooting,safety must come first at all times,even if it annoys a few people.

Agreed 100% as long as common sense is used

Manic Moran

I really don't think the SO is doing this just for the hell of it, there may be good reasons which we are not aware of.

This is possible. For the life of me, however, I am unable to come up with a single rational explanation which would apply to that club and would not be considered a safety hazard in every other place where shotguns are shot.

Actually, after having been an active shooter for nearly two decades, most of that time spent with semi-autos as the firearm mechanism of preference, I am unable to come up with a rational explanation that would apply to any likely club regardless of circumstance which revolves around safety and not perception issues.

Tell you what,next time you go to any form of competition,why not not just tell whoever is in charge that you don't like their rules and you will do it your way

1) I am not disputing that those are the rules in effect. I am disputing that this particular rule makes any form of sense whatsoever. I am making this statement clearly and distinctly. If that club doesn't want someone's business or membership, that's up to them. They are perfectly entitled to be "The Archaic Single-Shot Shotgun Club of Wexford (or wherever)" if they so desire. But if they do, they can't hide behind 'safety' as an argument. They should just come out and say "We don't like shotguns which don't look like the traditional shotguns used over the years"

2) The OP is apparently a member of this club, and has apparently not been given a rationale for this decision. As a member he is entitled to say "I don't like your rule" and have his voice heard. For his situation, the ruling should either be substantiated or withdrawn. At which point, if the former, he can then agree to comply with it, or say to himself "this guy is an idiot and I will have nothing further to do with this"

one person with a leg amputated below the knee because of a friends carelessness,one person who lost the sight of an eye because of basic failure to follow simple rules while out shooting and another serious injury due to another breach of basic safety rules

I submit that the basic safety rules apply be you equipped with a single-barrel, single-shot shotgun, or an AA-12 fully-automatic shotgun with a 32-round drum magazine*. Is there any reason to believe that those injuries would not have occurred had the firearm type been different? I further submit that the safety officer's correct course of action is to lay out the procedures to be in place at the club for the safe and courteous use of semi-autos or pumps, which are perfectly serviceable and commonly used firearms, as opposed to just banning them completely. Hell, if the slightest risk of accident is the only factor, why doesn't the Government just ban shotguns outright. That way the guy could have never had his leg amputated or gone blind in one eye. Simple safety rules are all that is required for the safe enjoyment of the sport. Even with semi-autos.

NTM

*How many clays can you launch at the same time, I wonder? That could be an interesting sport...

Grizzly 45

marlin vs wrote: »

Safety officer or dictator.

Hey !!Godwins law and all that!!:P

Grizzly 45

.

*How many clays can you launch at the same time, I wonder? That could be an interesting sport...

Tom Knapp hand throws ten at a time and breaks them with a 10 shot Benelli 90.:)

think in some clubs there is a "ban" on pistols being carried in holsters for safety reasons,why does nobody question that one?

Yeah,in the club house or parking lot or off the actual range.Logical that,but no one objects if you are on the range,and have the pistol safley holsterd ,unloaded,magwell clear,and secured in your holster while you chat to somone or are down changing targets.
If this guy is a qualified "saftey officer " too and by that I mean somone with a revelant recognised bit of paper.He should then know intimately the workings and saftey aspects features of a semi or pump,and be able to explain his fears properly to all and devise a safe procedure to allow them to shoot.

Oh by the way, I own a p/a myself, and would not be irritated if prohibited from entering a competition,whether club or not.

Bless your tolerance of others ignorance then is all I can say!

shedd7

bunny shooter wrote: »

Agreed 100% as long as common sense is used

Sorry mate,safety is not conditional,particularly by people of various ability with firearms. It is a must, not a must so long as I agree with how it is applied. I'm surprised that someone who seems to know about the technical side of shooting is finding it so difficult to understand the basic,simple concept of safety.

Tackleberrywho

shedd7 wrote: »

Sorry mate,safety is not conditional,particularly by people of various ability with firearms. It is a must, not a must so long as I agree with how it is applied. I'm surprised that someone who seems to know about the technical side of shooting is finding it so difficult to understand the basic,simple concept of safety.

Sir

Safety rules stay the same, situations may change.
Rules stay the same.

Saying a Semi is not as safe as a double barrel is showing a lack of knowledge of semi's
Or full Autos.

Training is the key, RO's training is more important in this case, as fear of semi's is not a reason to not want them.

Bunnyshooter

Maybe we should open a club for semi users

homerhop

you are sounding like our fav minister mr ahern at the moment.
You are saying because one individual who is a safety officer does not like semi or pump action shot guns has a right to look for a blanket ban on them at shoots?
I have been at shoot where closed double barrels were left lying against a post and anoter where a lad was stopped as if he was in the middle of a field with a closed gun over his shoulder. So having been a safety officer and seeing how dangerous it was should i have called for a blanket ban on all side by sides and over and unders leaving lads standing with their hands in their pockets looking at the clays go by?
You as the owner as you say of one of these type guns should know better !! Not a single person who is on this forum would ever like to see anyting happen to a shooter . It is bad enough the muppets in government looking for a blanket ban on cartain types of guns because "they look dangerous" without an individual within the shooting community who should know better being a gun dealer creating another personal agenda blanket ban

Manic Moran

shedd7 wrote: »

Sorry mate,safety is not conditional,particularly by people of various ability with firearms. It is a must, not a must so long as I agree with how it is applied. I'm surprised that someone who seems to know about the technical side of shooting is finding it so difficult to understand the basic,simple concept of safety.

Then obviously the safest way of shooting is, in fact, to point at a target with a piece of water piping, yell 'Bang', and take surveys from a panel of experts as to whether or not the clay would have been hit had it actually been a real gun. In fact, since the clay could theoretically bop someone on the head, let's not launch one of those either, and just work off timing and estimates.

Shooting is a sport which inherently requires basic safety measures to keep the sport safe. Stupid measures which are given the name 'safety measures' to make them sound sensible but which which make no particular move towards increasing safety are just stupid measures, no matter what label is applied to them.

NTMN

xp90

I hate not being able to use my gun:

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

He seems reluctant to explain why only semis & pumps are dangerous :rolleyes:

You've actually been in contact with him then?