Dell Calling! your warranty has expired

foggy_lad

you must now buy extra protection to stay protected!

i have had a missed call last night at 2.10am and answered a call just now from the same number 02044000 and it seems it was dell's indian sales office trying to tell me my three year warranty has expired and that i must now buy extended warranty or dell will have no responsibility towards my 3 year old pc!

i stated the sale of goods act 1980 allows for statutory rights giving me protection far greater than the warranty that dell provides and buying any extra warranty would be a waste of money as i can just return to the retailer Dell and ask them to repair replace or refund!

now i know i could not expect a full refund or a brand new replacemant after three years but it is still a better deal imo than paying dell for insurance which they would most likely find some term os contition that voided the cover!

jpb1974

i have had a missed call last night at 2.10am

If someone called me at 2:10am about an expired warranty I know that the sale of goods act wouldn't be the first thing I'd be informing them about

seamus

After 3 years you couldn't even expect a repair for free.

EU legislation and the SOGA require that the item purchased works without fault for a reasonable period of time after purchase. For electronic equipment, this is generally believed to mean 12 - 18 months. For a computer, you could argue that you should reasonably get 2 years out of the hardware before anything fails.

More than 3 years though, no, that wouldn't be a "reasonable" amount of time. I don't know if a precedent/call has been made on that though.

The spirit of what you say is right though. Manufacturers will often talk about a one-year warranty and then offer to extend it to two or three years on the payment of a not-insignificant sum. This is often misleading on a number of counts:

1. They already have a statutory obligation to the customer, usually for more than a year
2. The warranty is rarely a full support line, rather a "faults only" service - tech. support will cost you money. But customers are often led to believe that they are getting a full support service.
3. The hardware has been tested over and over and over such that they know that 95% of their machines will not fail within the 3-year period, and you're effectively buying insurance against an unlikely event.

Specific to computers, they also know that they can charge you €100 to extend the warranty on a 3 year old machine but any failed parts will never cost more than €10 to replace.

foggy_lad

seamus wrote: »

After 3 years you couldn't even expect a repair for free.

if the fault is due to faulty workmanship or defect in the product it is covered by the sale of goods act. normal wear and tear is not covered but the product must be reasonable durable enough so that it will last a reasonable time given its use amount paid for it etc so if you buy a pc for €250 from dixons or pixmania it will have maybe a 2-3 year lifespan but paying more means the reasonable time is extended up to 6 years.

EU legislation and the SOGA require that the item purchased works without fault for a reasonable period of time after purchase.

as for the EU legislation this does not apply in ireland as the irish sale of goods act affords the consumer greater protection

For electronic equipment, this is generally believed to mean 12 - 18 months. For a computer, you could argue that you should reasonably get 2 years out of the hardware before anything fails.

generally believed by retailers who seek to abolish the protection afforded consumers and more importantly get out of their obligation to provide redress!

More than 3 years though, no, that wouldn't be a "reasonable" amount of time. I don't know if a precedent/call has been made on that though.

most larger items pc laptops and household items like washing machines cookers etc will be covered for up to the maximum of 6 years.

The spirit of what you say is right though. Manufacturers will often talk about a one-year warranty and then offer to extend it to two or three years on the payment of a not-insignificant sum. This is often misleading on a number of counts:

1. They already have a statutory obligation to the customer, usually for more than a year
2. The warranty is rarely a full support line, rather a "faults only" service - tech. support will cost you money. But customers are often led to believe that they are getting a full support service.
3. The hardware has been tested over and over and over such that they know that 95% of their machines will not fail within the 3-year period, and you're effectively buying insurance against an unlikely event.

Specific to computers, they also know that they can charge you €100 to extend the warranty on a 3 year old machine but any failed parts will never cost more than €10 to replace.

the manufacturer is not a party to the contract between the consumer and retailer! they can say what they like but their talk means nothing to consumers!

the only people with any obligation to the consumer is the retailer!

jpb1974

What you're saying is all well and good foggy_lad but you'd have to win a ruling in the Small Claims Court before many suppliers would bat an eyelid for when it comes to >3 years PC with an expired warranty.

How long do you honestly expect someone to cover your PC for based on the SOGA?

There has to be a level of common sense here which protects the interests of both the buyer and seller.

seamus

foggy_lad wrote: »

if the fault is due to faulty workmanship or defect in the product it is covered by the sale of goods act. normal wear and tear is not covered but the product must be reasonable durable enough so that it will last a reasonable time given its use amount paid for it etc so if you buy a pc for €250 from dixons or pixmania it will have maybe a 2-3 year lifespan but paying more means the reasonable time is extended up to 6 years.

Do you have any links to back up this "6 years" assertion?
In the context of electronics, paying more generally reflects the improved specification of the end-product more than the lifespan of it. I can pay €150 for a 8GB iPod or €200 for a 16GB iPod, but I (and a court) would expect the two to have equivalent lifespans. A person who spends €1,000 on a PC would change it after 3 years (because thats the level of performance they expect) just as someone who spends €250 would. In fact, the person who spends €250 would likely expect to get longer out of the product.

as for the EU legislation this does not apply in ireland as the irish sale of goods act affords the consumer greater protection

EU legislation supersedes Irish legislation.

the manufacturer is not a party to the contract between the consumer and retailer! they can say what they like but their talk means nothing to consumers!

Agreed. That doesn't stop manufacturers from selling extended warranties though.

foggy_lad

seamus wrote: »

Do you have any links to back up this "6 years" assertion?
In the context of electronics, paying more generally reflects the improved specification of the end-product more than the lifespan of it. I can pay €150 for a 8GB iPod or €200 for a 16GB iPod, but I (and a court) would expect the two to have equivalent lifespans. A person who spends €1,000 on a PC would change it after 3 years (because thats the level of performance they expect) just as someone who spends €250 would. In fact, the person who spends €250 would likely expect to get longer out of the product.
EU legislation supersedes Irish legislation.
Agreed. That doesn't stop manufacturers from selling extended warranties though.

all this basic consumer stuff has already been thrashed out in consumer issues, i suggest you search for it yourself.

and ireland did not adopt the EU 2 year electronic equipment rule as the sale of goods act already provids better protection!

jpb1974

We had a similar discussion a while back about an out of warranty washing machine.

The SOGA could be interpreted just about anyway which way you want... both in favour of the buyer or the seller.

It all boils down to some Small Claims Court judge who wants to get a backlog of claims out of the way as quickly as possible so he can go to lunch... kinda like Judge Judy... she'll decide who she likes (usually the party that gives her the least lip) and then rule in their favour.

tricky D

Whooosh!

Has everybody missed the obvious... this is a scam.

Dodgy number.
Wrong time of day
Similarity with the support scam modus operandi.
Dell Ireland has local warranty support.
Indian warranty support office is not open at 2:10 in the morning.

foggy_lad

while the customer may not be entitled to a brand new replacement or full refund after 3, 4 or 5 years they are entitled to have the retailer not the manufacturer deal with them and provide redress if required.

seamus

foggy_lad wrote: »

all this basic consumer stuff has already been thrashed out in consumer issues, i suggest you search for it yourself.

In other words, you don't have a link.

I've searched, and aside from where you and one or two others have made this assertion, there is nothing as far as I can find in Irish law which says that everything comes with an automatic six-year guarantee.

A product which is bought is expected to work for a reasonable period of time. The SOGA applies within that reasonable period of time.

You may be getting confused with the statute of limitations which gives six years from the date that a contract is established for either party to take legal action on the foot of that contract. If the expected lifetime of a product is 7 years and it breaks after 6.5 years, you do not have any rights under consumer/contract law because the limit of 6 years in which to seek redress has already passed.

Likewise if you buy a product with an expected lifespan of 2 years and it breaks after 1.5 years, you have 4.5 more years in which to seek redress. However, if it breaks after 2 years, you do not have any right to seek redress because you are outside the expected reasonable lifetime for that product.

I'm wide open to be proven wrong here, so links please if you believe this to be the case otherwise.

and ireland did not adopt the EU 2 year electronic equipment rule as the sale of goods act already provids better protection!

Again, EU law supersedes Irish law. We don't get to choose what EU laws we do and do not adopt.

foggy_lad

the sale of goods act says the item must last for a reasonable time and that it must be reasonably durable etc, this consumer forum is full of the stuff so you cant have searched very well? the six years is the maximum period of protection limted by the statute of limitations so the retailer has no obligation after this time. but if your 4 year old washing machine breaks down you could not reasonably expect a full refund or a new replacement, it may be a case that the store sends out a repair person who will most likely bill the manufacturer for a warranty repair especially if the fault/breakdown is due to a defect that was repaired on newer machines, but it has to be remembered that the store/retailer is obliged to provide such services! the main word to take in for retailer and consumer is REASONABLE!

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0010.html#zza16y1980s10

(3) Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0023.html#zza16y1980s23

Conflict of laws


55A.—Where the proper law of a contract of sale of goods would, apart from a term that it should be the law of some other country or a term to the like effect, be the law of Ireland or where any such contract contains a term which purports to substitute, or has the effect of substituting, provisions of the law of some other country for all or any of the provisions of sections 12 to 15 and 55 of this Act, those sections shall, notwithstanding that term but subject to section 61 (6) of this Act, apply to the contract.

foggy_lad

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64209398&postcount=1

bazwaldo wrote: »

After seeing someone mention something about rights for 6 years for a similar situation of mine, I did a bit of searching and found this on askaboutmoney.

When you buy electrical goods they often come with a manufacturer's warranty. Warranties can be very useful as an extra protection or if the retailer goes out of business, for example. But this is in addition to your statutory rights, not instead of them.
So if your washing machine breaks down and you go back to the shop where you bought it, they might tell you to contact the manufacturer and use your warranty.
But let's say your warranty is only for one year and it's now 18 months since you bought the machine, the manufacturer may still be happy to repair it but will probably charge you a fee. Forget it.
The retailer and not the manufacturer is still legally obliged to remedy the situation for you, and so the retailer should provide a repair, replacement or refund at no cost to you.
And for how long can you sing this song? Well, probably longer than you think, although you have to be reasonable and take into account the intended lifespan of the product in question.
Thanks to European legislation (Directive 99/44/EC) you can be sure that wherever you shop in Europe you have at least two years' protection. Bear in mind that this is not a guarantee period but rather the length of time in which you can enforce your rights.
While many member states have adopted this two-year complaint period, it is a minimum standard and so countries are free to have a longer period. In Ireland, under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980, no limitation period is mentioned at all.
However, as per the Irish Statute of Limitations 1957, you have six years in which to make a complaint, and we can rely on this as the European legislation is in addition to and not instead of our existing legislation.

Of course this is just someones text rather than anything official so I don't know how true it is and what are the limits if it is.

My case:
I bought a TV from Tesco around May 2008. It developed a fault on screen about 2 months ago and is slowly getting worse. Basically there some very dark patches running down the screen at some points. Most times its very visible. I rang Philips and they said it was out of warranty (which was for 1 year) so I forgot about it till now.

If I go to customer services in Tesco I have a feeling I'll be told where to go. And if so I'd like to know my rights and what Tesco should be doing for me. i.e. Repair the TV

Any help appreciated.

this should explain the european directive thing and how irish SOGA superceeds it because it offers more protection

here is another mention of it on the askaboutmoney website http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=887464&postcount=4

jpb1974

In fairness that really doesn't say a whole lot more than what seamus has already said.

Electronic goods will have a limited life expectancy.

Irish Statute of Limitations allows you up to 6 years to make a claim.

After that the laws are really, really, really grey e.g. "no limitation period is mentioned at all."

You have to go to the Small Claims court and see what the judge says... that could go either way depending on what side of bed he got out of.

There aren't too many hard facts surrounding this... and very few instances on this forum where people have conclusively followed all the way through with out of warranty electronic failures.

jpb1974

The argument on the washing machine thread was that you could have had the mo'focker going 5 times a day, 7 times a week for 2 years... or you might use it once a week... so the variables which contributed to it's death could vary considerably.

seamus

You still haven't provided any proof here. The statute of limitations says nothing about how long a retailer is obligated to the buyer after selling a product. It simply sets out the maximum time limit under which a person can seek redress arising out of a contract.
You could use the same logic to claim that a scone I bought yesterday should be fit to eat for 6 years.

A computer which lasts for 3 years could be considered reasonably durable and to have lasted a reasonable amount of time. One which lasted for six years without requiring any repairs would be considered a workhorse and a rarity.

Thanks for your link. Still doesn't prove your point though. You cannot assume that because you have six years in which to make a complaint about a contract that the product must be functional for those six years. I refer you to my scone argument above.

Your link also doesn't show that the SOGA supercedes EU law. EU law provides a minimum warranty/guarantee, though I muddied the waters by ignoring that, so we're probably arguing a non-point at this stage.

foggy_lad

jpb1974 wrote: »

In fairness that really doesn't say a whole lot more than what seamus has already said.

Electronic goods will have a limited life expectancy.

Irish Statute of Limitations allows you up to 6 years to make a claim.

After that the laws are really, really, really grey e.g. "no limitation period is mentioned at all."

You have to go to the Small Claims court and see what the judge says... that could go either way depending on what side of bed he got out of.

There aren't too many hard facts surrounding this... and very few instances on this forum where people have conclusively followed all the way through with out of warranty electronic failures.

true i suppose there are very few postings about small claims won in the court, maybe this is because companies like dell pc world etc usually replace or offer a full refund before it gets to the small claims court steps especially where any fault is due to a faulty part like graphics card that has affected hundreds/thousands of consumers.

companies will usually deny claims made stating they are outside the manufacturer warranty and some people will give in and pay for extended warranty etc but it is worth fighting for your statutory rights.

foggy_lad

seamus wrote: »

You still haven't provided any proof here. The statute of limitations says nothing about how long a retailer is obligated to the buyer after selling a product. It simply sets out the maximum time limit under which a person can seek redress arising out of a contract.
You could use the same logic to claim that a scone I bought yesterday should be fit to eat for 6 years.

A computer which lasts for 3 years could be considered reasonably durable and to have lasted a reasonable amount of time. One which lasted for six years without requiring any repairs would be considered a workhorse and a rarity.

Thanks for your link. Still doesn't prove your point though. You cannot assume that because you have six years in which to make a complaint about a contract that the product must be functional for those six years. I refer you to my scone argument above.

Your link also doesn't show that the SOGA supercedes EU law. EU law provides a minimum warranty/guarantee, though I muddied the waters by ignoring that, so we're probably arguing a non-point at this stage.

your scone would not be reasonably expected to last 6 years given what it is just as a childs laptop would not be reasonably expected to last 3-5 years unless the child was not allowed use it.

seamus

foggy_lad wrote: »

your scone would not be reasonably expected to last 6 years given what it is just as a childs laptop would not be reasonably expected to last 3-5 years unless the child was not allowed use it.

Exactly.

No laptop or computer could be reasonably expected to last 3 years - without needing service - which is my point.

whippet

foggy_lad wrote: »

your scone would not be reasonably expected to last 6 years given what it is just as a childs laptop would not be reasonably expected to last 3-5 years unless the child was not allowed use it.

this is where I get confused by your reasoning.

Take the 'child's laptop'

So a child using a 'child's laptop' wouldn't be expected to last 3-5 years, but what would the expectatioin be if an Adult was using a 'Child's laptop' (in a school like senario?

Or on the flip side, would an 'Adult's laptop' be expected to last 3-5 years being used by a Child?

It's not a black and white area, far from it and this is where the SCC comes in to use, they will decide based on evidence if the machine has lasted it's expected life span.

A €350 dell notebook i would suggest would have a reasonable expectation of up to 3 years, any thing after that would be a bonus. However a €2500 Apple Powerbook would in my expectation have to last at least 4 years .. but again it's the decision of the SCC which matters.

axer

Of course a computer or laptop would be expected to last 3 years if not misused or abused. I'm talking purely hardware though. I don't see how it would need a service - its not like it is a car. I would imagine it would be fairly easy to argue in the case of a laptop that there are scratches or other damage visible so the seller could argue that the product was used or misused by the buyer.

A friend of mine's father purchased a TV for 2.5k a couple of years back. After just over 2 years the tube went on it. He phoned the shop who said that they wouldn't fix it as it was well past the 12 month warranty. I loaded him up with his consumer rights and sent him back in there - they repaired the item for him then. I would expect the TV in that instance to last at least 3 years, probably 4 but it would become a tougher fight the longer after 3 years it goes.

jor el

How long something should last, and how long a retailer/manufacturer should be held liable for any faults are not really the same thing though. I would expect my laptop (currently 4 years old) to last another couple of years anyway, but if the RAM develops a fault tomorrow I'm not going to go back looking for a replacement.

Each case would be decided upon on an individual basis, and in the Small Claims Court if necessary. Anyone who feels they have a case can always take one, but there is by no means a responsibility on retailers or manufacturers to warrant their goods for a period of 6 years. All the law states is; reasonable, and what might be is a matter for the retailer and consumer to work out between them, or for a court to decide.

ttm

foggy_lad wrote: »

you must now buy extra protection to stay protected!

i have had a missed call last night at 2.10am and answered a call just now from the same number 02044000 and it seems it was dell's indian sales office trying to tell me my three year warranty has expired and that i must now buy extended warranty or dell will have no responsibility towards my 3 year old pc!

i stated the sale of goods act 1980 allows for statutory rights giving me protection far greater than the warranty that dell provides and buying any extra warranty would be a waste of money as i can just return to the retailer Dell and ask them to repair replace or refund!

now i know i could not expect a full refund or a brand new replacemant after three years but it is still a better deal imo than paying dell for insurance which they would most likely find some term os contition that voided the cover!

ROTFL :pac: if you know your rights under the sale of goods act 1980 why did you waste your money on a three year warranty in the first place:eek:

Or have I missed the point of your lecture to the guy in India?

foggy_lad

ttm wrote: »

ROTFL :pac: if you know your rights under the sale of goods act 1980 why did you waste your money on a three year warranty in the first place:eek:

Or have I missed the point of your lecture to the guy in India?

it came with the pc which was an upgraded model to the one i originally ordered as they had got the screen wrong then the actual pc failed to start out of the box, dells indian care were telling me i needed to send the pc back for repair at my own expense despite having one year collect and return warranty and that they would refund the price difference between the two monitors with €19 when the actual difference was almost €200 so i wrote to Dell in bray and got a call two days later telling me the dimension pc had finished its production run but i would be sent an inspiron with some upgrades and the monitor would also be replaced with the right one and i could keep the extra keyboard and mouse.

despite all the indian care rubbish if you deal with dell in ireland you will be a return customer!

subway

heres a rule of thumb for you, the life cycle of the machine that the manufacturer CANNOT dispute in court is the period that they will provide warranty for it.

if a manufacturer will provide a 5 year warranty then they effectively admit that the machine has a possible life span of 5 years, if treated correctly. after that they would expect that the faults with the machine are going to be as a result of age (excessive wear and tear) rather than manufacturing defects. you may be able to prove more in court, but this is an easy assumption to make.

remember, the main advantage to warranty is that it generally provides a clear and quick path to resolution. SCC will provide you the outcome you desire (if you know what you doing, like foggy_lad) but it will take longer and if you are unsure of your rights (like Seamus) you wont pursue it and end up with a dead machine.

foggy_lad

subway wrote: »

heres a rule of thumb for you, the life cycle of the machine that the manufacturer CANNOT dispute in court is the period that they will provide warranty for it.

if a manufacturer will provide a 5 year warranty then they effectively admit that the machine has a possible life span of 5 years, if treated correctly. after that they would expect that the faults with the machine are going to be as a result of age (excessive wear and tear) rather than manufacturing defects. you may be able to prove more in court, but this is an easy assumption to make.

remember, the main advantage to warranty is that it generally provides a clear and quick path to resolution. SCC will provide you the outcome you desire (if you know what you doing, like foggy_lad) but it will take longer and if you are unsure of your rights (like Seamus) you wont pursue it and end up with a dead machine.

most warranties are only for one year but depending on the price paid for items and other factors they can realistically and reasonabally be expected to last 3+ years

seamus

subway wrote: »

heres a rule of thumb for you, the life cycle of the machine that the manufacturer CANNOT dispute in court is the period that they will provide warranty for it.

Yes and no. The cost of an extended warranty increases as the age of the product does, to reflect the increased risk of failure. Providing a paid-for warranty for a product does not necessarily mean that a manufacturer thinks that the product is still viable in that timeframe, they're simply providing an insurance policy. A free warranty however is complete proof that a manufacturer thinks that the product will not fail within the free warranty period.

SCC will provide you the outcome you desire (if you know what you doing, like foggy_lad) but it will take longer and if you are unsure of your rights (like Seamus) you wont pursue it and end up with a dead machine.

I'm completely clear on my rights, thanks. With my experience in computing, I couldn't realistically stand up in court and make a declaration that I should expect a computer to last without faults for 3 years. Because I don't. My experience tells me that 3 years is about the time that a significant number of machines start developing faults, therefore computers cannot be reasonably expected to last more than 3 years without a fault.

On top of that, the time and effort it would take to chase something in SCC would be multiples of the cost of simply replacing the affected part and continuing on with my life.

noodler

seamus wrote: »

Exactly.

No laptop or computer could be reasonably expected to last 3 years - without needing service - which is my point.

Except for the 4 I have had in my lifetime.

slimjimmc

seamus wrote: »

A computer which lasts for 3 years could be considered reasonably durable and to have lasted a reasonable amount of time. One which lasted for six years without requiring any repairs would be considered a workhorse and a rarity.

I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with this statement. I've managed many 100's of standard PCs in industrial environments over the years and I can safely say 95% of them easily lasted over 6yrs with no hardware issues at all, plenty of user and software issues but little or no hardware faults. Even the PCs out on the factory floor (a very dirty unfriendly environment for PCs) lasted this long without intervention.

In fact the very PC I'm using now is 7yrs old and still going strong on all original components (though the OS got corrupted and was reinstalled in 2004 :mad:).

foggy_lad

i have 3 computors all over 4 years old and working perfectly but if the retailer or manufacturer like dell sony acer etc wants to scam more money off you in a few years what better way than to sell you something that will last 3years maximum ans sell you extended warranties that cover very little etc etc

With my experience in computing, I couldn't realistically stand up in court and make a declaration that I should expect a computer to last without faults for 3 years. Because I don't. My experience tells me that 3 years is about the time that a significant number of machines start developing faults, therefore computers cannot be reasonably expected to last more than 3 years without a fault.

and your experience is in what?

of course manufacturers want people to think their laptop or pc should be thrown out after a few years but for most people the reality is that these products last much longer!

Drake66

foggy_lad wrote: »

you must now buy extra protection to stay protected!

i have had a missed call last night at 2.10am and answered a call just now from the same number 02044000 and it seems it was dell's indian sales office trying to tell me my three year warranty has expired and that i must now buy extended warranty or dell will have no responsibility towards my 3 year old pc!

i stated the sale of goods act 1980 allows for statutory rights giving me protection far greater than the warranty that dell provides and buying any extra warranty would be a waste of money as i can just return to the retailer Dell and ask them to repair replace or refund!

now i know i could not expect a full refund or a brand new replacemant after three years but it is still a better deal imo than paying dell for insurance which they would most likely find some term os contition that voided the cover!

Is that not the phone number of the phisher/scam artist ringing around trying to upload keyloggers onto peoples machines?