cariacaturisation of religious types

magicbastarder

dunno if that's even spelt right.
i'm somewhat bemused with the level of irritation caused by believers to some of the posters here; i'm just curious as to whether these reactions are triggered by evangelically religious people or just believers in general?

i find that whether i get on with someone usually has very little to do with how much our beliefs intersect and far more to do with general personality traits and shared experiences.

some of the most intelligent people i have known were priests; one of the most formative on me in my school years was a science teacher who is a priest and has a PhD in astrophysics, and maintains a passion and a glee for even the simplest scientific process i found rare among the faculty staff in college (as an example, he had no truck with us using chemical indicators from a bottle in first year in school and showed us how to make our own); another has written several well respected books on literary history.

most believers i know are quite happy to keep their head down and use religion to help them through life in their own particular way; if it works for them, and they're not harming anyone else, good luck to them.

this thread was partially prompted by the 'what annoys you' thread, which i fully realise is not indicative of the general posting population here, but it was also prompted by the 'religious types are mentally ill' claims which i've seen here a couple of times before.
i know i'm just rambling, but hey, it's better than working.

Beruthiel

magicbastarder wrote: »

it was also prompted by the 'religious types are mentally ill' claims which i've seen here a couple of times before.

It could be a rational answer to a question that some of us find difficult to explain. How can a seemingly intelligent person still believe in fairies?
Puzzles me.

magicbastarder

Beruthiel wrote: »

How can a seemingly intelligent person still believe in fairies?

do you know many religious people who believe in fairies?

checkyabadself

I find that most people on here, myself included may seem irritated towards certain believers at times for one main reason.

When theists refuse to answer basic questions and respond to logical rational statements by atheists with a recycled version of their previous claims, nothing gets thrashed out and everyone becomes irritated.

storm2811

Beruthiel wrote: »

It could be a rational answer to a question that some of us find difficult to explain. How can a seemingly intelligent person still believe in fairies?
Puzzles me.

Yes,why not?
Do you have to be an idiot to have some sort belief in other things,mystical things,mythological things?
I don't believe in fairies btw.:pac:

sonicthebadger*

magicbastarder wrote: »

do you know many religious people who believe in fairies?

De God; De Jeebus; and all the Saints and the Virgin Mammy.

You know... fairies. :pac:

MagicMarker

I'm not irritated by religious types, just ignorant religious types

I think the ones who try to rationalise or argue "logically" that the belief is true or whatever get to me... it's an irrational belief, believe it all you want, but don't try pretending it isn't. That and the "personal surety of god" bit - "god spoke to me, I know it was god, if you didn't hear then you're not listening hard enough/not praying right, it IS it IS"

Sure I have irrational beliefs too, but I'm not going to say there's something wrong with science or whatever to justify them.

Beruthiel

magicbastarder wrote: »

do you know many religious people who believe in fairies?

Santa, god, fairies. All the same.

magicbastarder

QED.

Truley

Beruthiel wrote: »

Santa, god, fairies. All the same.

Not really. Most people weren't raised to believe in fairies, have parents who believed in fairys, attend fairy schools, be governed by fairy dominant governments, live in a predominantly fairy-worshipping society or have a world history of fairy worshipping.

Beruthiel

Truley wrote: »

Not really. Most people weren't raised to believe in fairies, have parents who believed in fairys, attend fairy schools, be governed by fairy dominant governments, live in a predominantly fairy-worshipping society or have a world history of fairy worshipping.

So you're saying there's a niche in the market?

checkyabadself

Truley wrote: »

Not really. Most people weren't raised to believe in fairies, have parents who believed in fairys, attend fairy schools, be governed by fairy dominant governments, live in a predominantly fairy-worshipping society or have a world history of fairy worshipping.

Yes really. Change the word fairy above, for godand the sentence is the same. God effectively is a fairy.......

fairy........a small imaginary being of human form that has magical powers. (oxford dictionary)

Just because you were raised to believe in something, that was taught to you in school, etc, etc doesn`t neccessarily make it true. Alchemy, existance of witches etc were all taught as true. Never made them real though.

Blackhorse Slim

Truley wrote: »

Not really. Most people weren't raised to believe in fairies, have parents who believed in fairys, attend fairy schools, be governed by fairy dominant governments, live in a predominantly fairy-worshipping society or have a world history of fairy worshipping.

So it's just us Irish then?

checkyabadself

Blackhorse Slim wrote: »

So it's just us Irish then?

GLaDOS

Some of the worlds most intelligent people believed obviously stupid things, see here

Intelligence in one are doesn't rule out questionable beliefs in others.

Truley

checkyabadself wrote: »

Yes really. Change the word fairy above, for godand the sentence is the same. God effectively is a fairy.......

fairy........a small imaginary being of human form that has magical powers. (oxford dictionary)

Just because you were raised to believe in something, that was taught to you in school, etc, etc doesn`t neccessarily make it true. Alchemy, existance of witches etc were all taught as true. Never made them real though.

That wasn't my point. My point is that believing in fairies is not exactly the same as believing in God. Most people are pretty clear that fairies aren't real, but God is an idea that is programmed into us as real from birth and an idea that the vast majority of people in the world suscribe to. So it's not as 'far out' a concept as fairies.

Beruthiel wrote: »

So you're saying there's a niche in the market?

Back off it was my idea first :P

checkyabadself

Truley wrote: »

That wasn't my point. My point is that believing in fairies is not exactly the same as believing in God. Most people are pretty clear that fairies aren't real, but God is an idea that is programmed into us as real from birth and an idea that the vast majority of people in the world suscribe to. So it's not as 'far out' a concept as fairies.

EDIT; gotcha.

magicbastarder

i should have guessed this was the way the thread was going to go.

thread fail.

mikhail

checkyabadself, I think he's just saying that it's a more understandable belief as it's strongly indoctrinated.

storm2811

I think Galileo was religious and so was Newton and they were certainly not idiots.

I'm an atheist but I respect peoples beliefs (to an extent,as long as they don't force it on me or try to convert me etc) and I can't believe people just go around saying people who believe in a god are stupid/brainwashed etc etc.

The majority of them will probably accept your non belief so I don't see the point in trashing someone who does believe,it's rude imo.

robindch

storm2811 wrote: »

I can't believe people just go around saying people who believe in a god are stupid/brainwashed etc etc.

Almost nobody does and in general, it's against this forum's charter to do so.

storm2811 wrote: »

The majority of them will probably accept your non belief [...].

You'll find that a lot of religious people don't tolerate your non-belief, and view it as their duty to stand at the top of Grafton or Henry Street yelling all day into a microphone, or showing up at your front door on a Thursday evening (I had the JW's last week for a very short visit), or indeed, the board of the school where you want to send your child, if that board is one of the 99% controlled by one religion or another.

Your respect is not always reciprocated.

mikhail

storm2811 wrote: »

I think Galileo was religious and so was Newton and they were certainly not idiots.

Yeah, but Newton was pretty weird. Died a virgin too.

I'm an atheist but I respect peoples beliefs (to an extent,as long as they don't force it on me or try to convert me etc) and I can't believe people just go around saying people who believe in a god are stupid/brainwashed etc etc.

Most religious people have the religion of their parents, and almost no experience of any other religion. They have no reason to believe other than childhood indoctrination. The analogies are rather difficult to dismiss.

The majority of them will probably accept your non belief so I don't see the point in trashing someone who does believe,it's rude imo.

Try reading about the experiences a lot of people here have had 'coming out' as an atheist (or elsewhere as a homosexual for that matter), or the Hazards of Belief sticky. Religion has ruined some of these people's relationships with their families. If they're a little prickly about it, surely you, being such an accepting chap, will make allowances for that.

storm2811

robindch wrote: »

Almost nobody does and in general, it's against this forum's charter to do so.

But they can compare belief in a god to belief in fairies and that wouldn't be insulting to people?

robindch wrote: »

You'll find that a lot of religious people don't tolerate your non-belief, and view it as their duty to stand at the top of Grafton or Henry Street yelling all day into a microphone, or showing up at your front door on a Thursday evening (I had the JW's last week for a very short visit), or indeed, the board of the school where you want to send your child, if that board is one of the 99% controlled by one religion or another.

Your respect is not always reciprocated.

The JW's,did they barge in and not leave untill you were converted?
I doubt it,you asked them to leave and told them you were an atheist I presume and they left because they respected your beliefs.

mikhail wrote: »

Yeah, but Newton was pretty weird. Died a virgin too.


Most religious people have the religion of their parents, and almost no experience of any other religion. They have no reason to believe other than childhood indoctrination. The analogies are rather difficult to dismiss.


Try reading about the experiences a lot of people here have had 'coming out' as an atheist (or elsewhere as a homosexual for that matter), or the Hazards of Belief sticky. Religion has ruined some of these people's relationships with their families. If they're a little prickly about it, surely you, being such an accepting chap, will make allowances for that.

I'm from Leitrim and as you know it is very backward and nearly completely RC,when I tell people I'm an atheist they usually couldn't give two fcuks tbh,they might ask why or a few other questions but apart from that they're all accepting enough,apart from the parish priest.

I know some people may not have it as easy when telling people about their views but I don't really see athiests getting as much abuse from religious types as they do.

ColmDawson

storm2811 wrote: »

I know some people may not have it as easy when telling people about their views but I don't really see athiests getting as much abuse from religious types as they do.

Maybe the more confrontational atheists are retaliating not against personal abuse from religious people, but rather against the damage religion does to the world in general.

For example, the reason I feel so strongly against religion is not because I had a strict Catholic childhood (I didn't) or some similar personal reason. It's more a case of being angry at people talking absolute bollocks and thinking their particular fairytale should have an effect on law or policy or the number of planes they decide to fly into buildings.

robindch

storm2811 wrote: »

But they can compare belief in a god to belief in fairies and that wouldn't be insulting to people?

Yes it can be, but that's insulting the belief and not insulting the person. It can be a fine line, but many religions blur that line intentionally, so that criticism of a belief is seen as criticism of the person. Religion piggy-backs upon the native respect for other people that most people have, in order to generate some automatic, if undeserved, respect for itself.

storm2811 wrote: »

The JW's,did they barge in and not leave untill you were converted?

No, they rang the doorbell and I pretended I wasn't in. It's much more effective

storm2811

ColmDawson wrote: »

Maybe the more confrontational atheists are retaliating not against personal abuse from religious people, but rather against the damage religion does to the world in general.

For example, the reason I feel so strongly against religion is not because I had a strict Catholic childhood (I didn't) or some similar personal reason. It's more a case of being angry at people talking absolute bollocks and thinking their particular fairytale should have an effect on law or policy or the number of planes they decide to fly into buildings.

Yes,I'd agree with you on this,there are a lot of religious types who take it too seriously but then thinking that they are all like this is blatant stereotyping.(I'm not accusing you of this btw.)

Although I disagree with some aspects of religion,the way it is taught and some people who take it so seriously and shove it peoples faces I would very rarely critisize someone because of their beliefs.

Dades

storm2811 wrote: »

But they can compare belief in a god to belief in fairies and that wouldn't be insulting to people?

If people could explain the material difference between believing in one or the other, then the comparison wouldn't be made.

storm2811

robindch wrote: »

Yes it can be, but that's insulting the belief and not insulting the person. It can be a fine line, but many religions blur that line intentionally, so that criticism of a belief is seen as criticism of the person. Religion piggy-backs upon the native respect for other people that most people have, in order to generate some automatic, if undeserved, respect for itself.

But a person who believes in such things would be insulted,no?

robindch wrote: »

No, they rang the doorbell and I pretended I wasn't in. It's much more effective

I do the same.:pac:
I've listened to what they have to say before and once is enough.

storm2811

Dades wrote: »

If people could explain the material difference between believing in one or the other, then the comparison wouldn't be made.

Well,I don't know,believing in a god can be a way of life for some and believing in fairies is not.

Rev Hellfire

storm2811 wrote: »

Well,I don't know,believing in a god can be a way of life for some and believing in fairies is not.

I suggest you don't look at the other forums under the Religion & Spirituality category unless you want your preconceptions chattered.

robindch

storm2811 wrote: »

But a person who believes in such things would be insulted,no?

If they choose to be offended, then, yes, they'll be offended. Especially if the religion encourages such offense to be taken.

But either way, the offense resides in the listener, not in the speaker.

Zombrex

magicbastarder wrote: »

most believers i know are quite happy to keep their head down and use religion to help them through life in their own particular way; if it works for them, and they're not harming anyone else, good luck to them.

How do you define "not harming anyone?"

I see supernatural pseudo-scientific belief harming people every day.

A person might say that person A's supernatural belief in astrology didn't directly harm person B's supernatural belief that these rocks will cure her cancer so she doesn't need to go to the doctor, but it seems to be all part and parcel if you see how society nurtures and supports ideas and memes in culture than then spread.

Humans, as social creatures, put a lot of emphasis on things they have heard from other people, irrespective of if they are true or not.

If there is a cultural of acceptance of pseudo-science and supernatural belief that leads to bad things you can't really say it isn't harming anyone.

Ickle Magoo

storm2811 wrote: »

I think Galileo was religious and so was Newton and they were certainly not idiots.

They were a product of their age, an age that any hint of declared atheism would have been seen as scandalously blasphemous. I never get the idea that theists in the 16th century give any kind of meaningful portrayal of the relationship between science and religion as we know it today.

storm2811 wrote:

Well,I don't know,believing in a god can be a way of life for some and believing in fairies is not.

Believing in god or fairies is indeed a way of life for some, as is believing they are napoleon or elvis reincarnated. What makes one worthy of respect and considered rational and sensible and the other fantasy and delusion?

storm2811

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

They were a product of their age, an age that any hint of declared atheism would have been seen as scandalously blasphemous. I never get the idea that theists in the 16th century give any kind of meaningful portrayal of the relationship between science and religion as we know it today.

Ahh yes,that is probably true.:o

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Believing in god or fairies is indeed a way of life for some, as is believing they are napoleon or elvis reincarnated. What makes one worthy of respect and considered rational and sensible and the other fantasy and delusion?

Well I may not agree with it or believe in it myself but I wouldn't make fun of/critisize someone because of their beliefs,no matter how strange.

storm2811

storm2811 wrote: »

Well I may not agree with it or believe in it myself but I wouldn't make fun of/critisize someone because of their beliefs,no matter how strange.

Criticizing someone's belief is not the same as criticizing them.

That's why it's fine to say to someone you hate x food or y movie. Sure, you might not go on at huge length about it to their face out of manners, but that's it.

Ickle Magoo

storm2811 wrote: »

Well I may not agree with it or believe in it myself but I wouldn't make fun of/critisize someone because of their beliefs,no matter how strange.

I will stop making fun of and criticising their religious beliefs when they stop campaigning against equality legislation, can no longer discriminate against my child attending the local school, stop demanding special treatment and a bigger say in law and politics based on their ancient unverifiable textbook, stop lobbying against extending the statute of limitations on abuse cases, and so on and so forth...

In short, when they seek to have as little impact and influence in my life than those who believe in faires or that they are elvis, I will having nothing else to say other than to point them in the way of a good psychiatrist, perhaps.

storm2811

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I will stop making fun of and criticising their religious beliefs when they stop campaigning against equality legislation, can no longer discriminate against my child attending the local school, stop demanding special treatment and a bigger say in law and politics based on their ancient unverifiable textbook, stop lobbying against extending the statute of limitations on abuse cases, and so on and so forth...

In short, when they seek to have as little impact and influence in my life of others that those who believe in faires or that they are elvis, I will having nothing else to say other than to point them in the way of a good psychiatrist, perhaps.

Fair point indeed,I do the same in school,it's meant to be multi-denominational and in no way religious but there's holy mary statues everywhere.:rolleyes:
I object to it but I see it as just trying to catch up Ireland up with the rest of Europe,very few countries in the EU are the same way we are when it comes to religion and state.
I wouldn't call it critisizing the religion as all people are trying to do is seperate church and state,not neccesarily saying there is anything foolish about the religion but just the way it is in the country.

Ickle Magoo

storm2811 wrote: »

Fair point indeed,I do the same in school,it's meant to be multi-denominational and in no way religious but there's holy mary statues everywhere.:rolleyes:
I object to it but I see it as just trying to catch up Ireland up with the rest of Europe,very few countries in the EU are the same way we are when it comes to religion and state.
I wouldn't call it critisizing the religion as all people are trying to do is seperate church and state,not neccesarily saying there is anything foolish about the religion but just the way it is in the country.

Sure - but it's the all pervasiveness that I find so abhorrent. As I say, if it wasn't a case of the religious expecting a greater say in matters that effect everyone of all denominations and none and trying to force their own agenda regardless of others, religion would have few detractors and the religious the same.

sponsoredwalk

magicbastarder wrote: »

i find that whether i get on with someone usually has very little to do with how much our beliefs intersect and far more to do with general personality traits and shared experiences.

Same here, there's no reason to bring up the subject of fairies in everyday conversation

If people can't take criticism of religion & bear through the brunt of it then it's a far deeper issue than just religion-bashing.

bnt

Generally, if I say anything about religious person, I'm talking about their beliefs, not the person. As I've said here on more than one occasion, I see a clear divide between people and their beliefs, but I've met people who don't see that separation. Their beliefs are central to their person, and so you can't insult their beliefs without it being perceived as a personal insult. I don't know exactly what to do, but I do know that I can't let that stop me from criticising religious belief.

I mean, I have met priests and other religious folk when they're "off-duty", and they seemed to be nice, normal people. I've also met those who never go "off-duty", who feel obliged to be religious at all times. It's hard to draw a caricature of such a person's beliefs alone, not when their personal character appears to be drawn from their beliefs i.e. they have no characters of their own! :rolleyes:

panda100

storm2811 wrote: »

The majority of them will probably accept your non belief so I don't see the point in trashing someone who does believe,it's rude imo.

As others have alluded too, I think you'll find that those who accept your non belief are in the minority in this country.

While obviously everyones experiences are different, when it came to my friends and family they couldn't accept that I didn't believe in a God and was no longer a RC.
Like many others on here I was thrown out of my house when I told my dad I had no belief. Despite that fact I have always been respectful towards his beliefs. Same with my sisters and brothers, they ridicule my non-belief, something I would never dream of doing to them. I still have a close relationship with my family though,but we just don't bring up religion anymore and If I visit on a Sunday I will go to mass to keep the peace.

The majority of religious types I have encountered in my live so far have been dominant, dictatorial and dogmatic . That would probably be my charicture of a religious type in Ireland, so far removed from Jebus there in another stratosphere!