Sherlock [** SPOILERS **]

wp_rathead

Jimmy Saville vibes of this guy so far

Alfred Borden

Toby Jones is superb

humanji

wp_rathead wrote: »

Jimmy Saville vibes of this guy so far

Definitely the basis of the character.

I really enjoyed that. I even didn't mind Mary that much. The end twist wasn't bad. Kind of badly signposted during it, but does draw you in for the next episode (though it's a bit too similar to the tend of season 1, though that may be on purpose).

Penn

Much better episode. Fantastic acting throughout and a hell of an ending.

Vojera

Wow, loved this episode!

GoldFour4

That was great. Looking forward to next week already. Was raging at the start when it seemed Mary was alive momentarily.

Belle E. Flops

Tonight totally made up for last week's episode. So good

cml387

Masterclass from Toby Jones, especially the scene in the mortuary.
Right back on course, (no disrespect to Mark Gatiss but that episode shows why Steve Moffat is the boss when it comes to this series).

ProudDUB

Missed the new ep tonight. Anyone know if its gonna be re aired this week?

Ta.

Basq

"An East Wind coming!"



Fantastic performances all around tonight!

languagenerd

So much better than last week! Particularly liked the first half with Sherlock trying not to observe things but doing it despite himself and Culverton being almost like Moriarty in The Reichenball Fall, using the media to hide in plain view and warp everyone's view of Sherlock. Nice nod to the Conan Doyle story too (IIRC Holmes made himself appear ill to catch out the villain - not quite to that extent though).

I swore out loud when Mary first appeared though! Thankfully she's not actually still alive...

Harry Palmr

They pulled it back from that annoying "Hollywood false ending" vibe with the ending.

I think it should be acknowledged that Sherlock is now fairly far removed from the source material at this stage and just enjoy it (or not) on it's own account. That said "Sherrinford Holmes" was dreamt up by Doyle as a name (and discarded) before being referenced by Mycroft in a non-specific way in a couple of previous episodes.

ScrubsfanChris

Wasn't sure during the first 20 mins but it just got better and better after that!
Acting was superb and Toby Jones was top notch as ever.
Highlight for me was John's confession to Mary and just that whole scene in general.

If there's ever a spin off, surely it has to be a Mrs. Hudson prequel

cml387

Moffatt and Gatiss are huge fans of past BBC tv classic series, and I'd bet that they had Edge Of Darkness in mind when they had Mary as a re appearing character.

If you haven't seen it (and you should) In Edge Of Darkness the principle character's daughter is violently murdered in the first episode, but re appears only to her father through the series to warn, encourage or explain.

Ted_YNWA

Mrs Hudson has a mean streak in her.

languagenerd

Harry Palmr wrote: »

They pulled it back from that annoying "Hollywood false ending" vibe with the ending.

I think it should be acknowledged that Sherlock is now fairly far removed from the source material at this stage and just enjoy it (or not) on it's own account. That said "Sherrinford Holmes" was dreamt up by Doyle as a name (and discarded) before being referenced by Mycroft in a non-specific way in a couple of previous episodes.

Mycroft did have a note saying "Call Sherrinford", but I guess that could be a place - a prison or a hospital/mental home where he thinks the sister is. Presumeably she's the one behind Moriarty and, well, everything?

irishchris

Excellent episode! Really enjoyed that

keano_afc

Both myself and the wife turned to each other half way through and said "this needs to get better and quick". But it did. Brilliant episode and the ending was just class. Can't wait for next week.

pinkypinky

Huge step up from last week.

Toby Jones is brilliant and I also thought "Jimmy Savile" watching him. I knew the original short, so I expected some kind of plan and faking dying.

Sian Brooke playing all 3 roles was quite obvious, but the other people I was watching with didn't agree with my theory until the reveal scene.

Loved the extra detail on Mrs Hudson too.

Kirby

This show is so good!

Ceist_Beag

Really enjoyed that episode but one thing didn't fit for me so hopefully some of you can set me straight. Not sure if I need to wrap in spoilers but just in case ...

So Sherlock planned all along to be in the hospital bed (along with all the other bits he had premeditated), yet he was completely thrown by the real daughter. So how did he plan to end up in the hospital bed? Was he planning to attack Culverton regardless and if so what was the point in bringing the daughter along?

Agree with ScrubsfanChris, the confession scene was superb, especially the line "the man I'm trying to be".

Yourself isit

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Really enjoyed that episode but one thing didn't fit for me so hopefully some of you can set me straight. Not sure if I need to wrap in spoilers but just in case ...

So Sherlock planned all along to be in the hospital bed (along with all the other bits he had premeditated), yet he was completely thrown by the real daughter. So how did he plan to end up in the hospital bed? Was he planning to attack Culverton regardless and if so what was the point in bringing the daughter along?

Agree with ScrubsfanChris, the confession scene was superb, especially the line "the man I'm trying to be".

Yes that's a huge plothole.

Glebee

Reviews seem to be positive after a slow opening episode. Did not catch it last night but looking forward to it this eveing now.:)

Vojera

Given that Sherlock starts thinking about

Redbeard when talking to "Faith" on the bridge, and we know that Redbeard is a source of trauma for Sherlock

, is it possible that

Eurus killed the dog? Or hurt Sherlock and the dog died saving him?

TheIrishGrover

I really enjoyed that episode. Thought Toby Jones was great and thought it was great

that they sorted it out in the episode. Trailers suggested that he would be the big bad this season. Nice Switcheroo. I'm assuming that the sister is the REAL power behind Moriarty. Hence all the "Miss Me?" was really from her.

I pretty much knew instantly, last week, that the woman on the bus was going to be Sherlock's sister but I certainly did not cop on that she was the daughter and the therapist.

Thought Mrs Hudson was awesome. Especially her explanation of the car. Hilarious. And her berating of Mycroft (Who was excellent as usual). I actually enjoyed last week but thought this was much better.


Only real issue I had was:

Did Mary REALLY have to go on and on about who "The Woman" was. Should just have been "No way, it's HER???!!"

Penn

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I really enjoyed that episode. Thought Toby Jones was great and thought it was great

that they sorted it out in the episode. Trailers suggested that he would be the big bad this season. Nice Switcheroo. I'm assuming that the sister is the REAL power behind Moriarty. Hence all the "Miss Me?" was really from her.

I pretty much knew instantly, last week, that the woman on the bus was going to be Sherlock's sister but I certainly did not cop on that she was the daughter and the therapist.

I doubt Sherlock's sister was the ever the real power behind Moriarty (or at least I hope not as it kinda devalues Moriarty himself). Rather just she was the one who set up the video to scare them into thinking Moriarty was back but really the "Miss Me?" is about her rather than Moriarty.

TheIrishGrover

Penn wrote: »

I doubt Sherlock's sister was the ever the real power behind Moriarty (or at least I hope not as it kinda devalues Moriarty himself). Rather just she was the one who set up the video to scare them into thinking Moriarty was back but really the "Miss Me?" is about her rather than Moriarty.

I agree with your point wholeheartedly (And went "Aww" when I was watching it) but I just think that's the way they will do.

dr.kenneth noisewater

Ceist_Beag wrote:

Really enjoyed that episode but one thing didn't fit for me so hopefully some of you can set me straight. Not sure if I need to wrap in spoilers but just in case ...

Ceist_Beag wrote:

Agree with ScrubsfanChris, the confession scene was superb, especially the line "the man I'm trying to be".

He thought in was Culvertons daughter but it turned out to be Eurus in disguise so thats why he was surprised to see the real daughter. When he found the note he realised he hadnt imagined it

languagenerd

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Really enjoyed that episode but one thing didn't fit for me so hopefully some of you can set me straight. Not sure if I need to wrap in spoilers but just in case ...

So Sherlock planned all along to be in the hospital bed (along with all the other bits he had premeditated), yet he was completely thrown by the real daughter. So how did he plan to end up in the hospital bed? Was he planning to attack Culverton regardless and if so what was the point in bringing the daughter along?

Agree with ScrubsfanChris, the confession scene was superb, especially the line "the man I'm trying to be".

I'm not sure he did plan to be in the hospital bed - they said his 3 original recorders were in his coat pockets, so if the "daughter" showed up as he expected, they would have got the confession then and there. I suppose you could argue ending up in hospital was his back-up plan.

Putting an extra one in the walking stick is harder to explain though - how could he know John would bring it? They explained how he found the therapist's house etc but the walking stick was a bit random.

(Also, I don't think you need the spoiler tags as there's a spoiler warning in the thread title )

Vojera

languagenerd wrote: »

Putting an extra one in the walking stick is harder to explain though - how could he know John would bring it? They explained how he found the therapist's house etc but the walking stick was a bit random.

The walking stick has been pretty symbolic throughout.
In the first episode, John is using the stick and is told that it's a psychological issue rather than a physical one. When he's caught up in the excitement of the chase with Sherlock, he forgets it, and we learn that John is drawn to danger and intrigue.

I would interpret John leaving the stick behind as him telling Sherlock that he's moving on with his life, that he doesn't need Sherlock to fulfil that role for him any more, that he can manage without both his stick and Sherlock.

Sherlock, knowing John as he does, could have guessed that John would make a big gesture like this and put the transmitter in it.

Heckler

Very good episode.

Toby Jones was great. I was creeped out in the Mortuary when he dismisses the staff and Saheed says "back in 5 minutes ?" and Culverton says "Make it 10. And Saheed ? Knock first next time..."

The Savillesque implications................

SimonTemplar

Much better episode this week. Actually up to season 1 and 2 standards.

Toby Jones was incredible, which really is no surprise. "Maintain eye contact! Maintain eye contact!" was seriously creepy :eek:

suitcasepink

Is there any chance of there being a Hurus and a Sherrinford? When John was questioning Mycroft did he not state a "brother"? Surely if it was just a sister Mycroft would have lied easier? And then the whole "call Sherinford" thing' though I don't know how they could have room for two new siblings?
Also definitely something I hadn't picked up on until an earlier boardsie said it, the flashback to redbeard while Sherlock was with his sister.. Somewhere deep down he must have known?

Actually delighted with this episode, only started watching the show recently but agree it had started to dip in season 3! I was praying last weeks episode was just laying down the foundations... Also The Woman??? Is she gonna come back? :O

Vojera

deise_girl wrote: »

Is there any chance of there being a Hurus and a Sherrinford? When John was questioning Mycroft did he not state a "brother"? Surely if it was just a sister Mycroft would have lied easier? And then the whole "call Sherinford" thing' though I don't know how they could have room for two new siblings?

There's a lot of speculation that when Sherlock says "What is it with the number three? People always give up after number three.", referring to the recording devices, that the writers are teasing that there are actually four Holmes siblings.

grames_bond

Vojera wrote: »

There's a lot of speculation that when Sherlock says "What is it with the number three? People always give up after number three.", referring to the recording devices, that the writers are teasing that there are actually four Holmes siblings.

I heard that that is supposedly teasing that there will be 4 episodes this season as opposed to the usual 3!

dball

interesting................

captain caveman

languagenerd wrote: »

Putting an extra one in the walking stick is harder to explain though - how could he know John would bring it? They explained how he found the therapist's house etc but the walking stick was a bit random.

IIRC, John left without the stick, but Sherlock made a point of picking it up and bringing it. I also got the vibe that he'd had the recording device in there from way back, when they lived together, but unbeknownst to John

flazio

I imagine the beard look was because Benedict Cumberbatch was probably in the middle of filming Doctor Strange. Wouldn't be the first time Steven Moffat has had to write in an explanation for a characters change of appearance due to other filming commitments. Matt Smith had to film his last Doctor Who bald but with a wig, and appear at the Doctor Who Proms with shorter hair. Both were explained away in the story.

pinkypinky

No, Dr Strange was finished filming well before they started on this season of Sherlock.

reason vs religion

As has been said to death now, Toby Jones was pretty fantastic. And so too, I think, his lines.

The episode itself, though, while a great improvement on last week's, still leaves me underwhelmed. A review in the Independent (from where I don't usually get my opinions!) broadly accused Gatiss of using trickery and editing to conceal a straightforward plot, and I'm somewhat in agreement. When the plot descends into the murky world of Sherlock's mind, the viewer is forced to suspend judgement, not knowing what is real and not. And I don't think it's a satisfying conclusion to then drop viewers back into the real world and say,

Bam - the daughter is actually the sister. Ha, didn't see that coming did you?!

. Because I don't feel shock. I don't feel I'm invested in the mystery. Just watching to see what I am told happens next.

This isn't to say that I think the story was bad. In fact I think the opposite. But great detective fiction requires more than just a great and intricate plot; the how they reader or viewer is guided through the story is just as important. And here I feel the writers have moved away from the clever cryptic plots of yore, instead bombarding viewers with brash misdirection before pulling an unexpectable meerkat out of the hat.

dball wrote: »

interesting................

I dunno, call me stingy, but I think that's excessive fawning. I accept fully that Sherlock is superbly shot and, as someone else said before on this thread, an absolute pioneer when it comes to conveying Sherlock's thoughts on the screen. But I think that video uses lots of enigmatic language in praise of something that's actually fairly ordinary.

connemara man

^

In all fairness the ordinary done this well is rare that's why it's highlighted in such a manner

cython

pinkypinky wrote: »

No, Dr Strange was finished filming well before they started on this season of Sherlock.

"Well before" is a slight stretch, at least according to Wikipedia, which claims Dr Strange wrapped on April 3rd, and Sherlock season 4 started on April 4th Obviously no overlap still, and there's no guarantee that Cumberbatch was on either set at those exact times, but definitely exaggeration as to the time between the productions there!

Ceist_Beag

reason vs religion wrote: »

A review in the Independent (from where I don't usually get my opinions!) broadly accused Gatiss of using trickery and editing to conceal a straightforward plot, and I'm somewhat in agreement. When the plot descends into the murky world of Sherlock's mind, the viewer is forced to suspend judgement, not knowing what is real and not. And I don't think it's a satisfying conclusion to then drop viewers back into the real world and say, Bam - the daughter is actually the sister. Ha, didn't see that coming did you?!. Because I don't feel shock. I don't feel I'm invested in the mystery. Just watching to see what I am told happens next.

Would go along with that as it was my first impression after - too much misdirection for the sake of it. I did enjoy it all the same but it's very different viewing. Not so much a show that you watch trying to figure things out before it unfolds, more one you watch for the superb way it is shot, the great lines and acting, and how you can then digest it all after and try and make sense of what you have just viewed.

BTW I removed the spoilers as it is something we already viewed and as has been said, this thread has "Spoilers" in the title!

Penn

I've heard it said that a great mystery is one where you get all the pieces throughout the story but it's only at the end that you see how they all fit together. A bad mystery is one where you just get all the pieces at the end practically already put together.

In fairness to Sherlock, the pieces about Sherlock's sister were there. The same actress playing all three roles (which I never copped), the repeated hints about something happening in his childhood which pointed to another brother (but like the first time Sherlock met John and thought his brother gave him his phone, it was a sister), "Miss Me?" being from his sister rather than Moriarty...

The pieces were there. The big mystery at the end was all the pieces we'd be given being put together as opposed to a shock surprise ending for the sake of it.

I thought it was done brilliantly.

pinkypinky

cython wrote: »

"Well before" is a slight stretch, at least according to Wikipedia, which claims Dr Strange wrapped on April 3rd, and Sherlock season 4 started on April 4th Obviously no overlap still, and there's no guarantee that Cumberbatch was on either set at those exact times, but definitely exaggeration as to the time between the productions there!

Fair enough, but he would have had the little goatee for most of the filming, and wore hair pieces for both that and the huge beard (in the Nepal scenes), whereas the Sherlock scruff just looks like he didn't shave for a week in real life.

CelticRambler

reason vs religion wrote: »

When the plot descends into the murky world of Sherlock's mind, the viewer is forced to suspend judgement, not knowing what is real and not.

That's how I've felt about it since the "Brides" episode last Christmas. I'm quite happy to believe in time-travelling and drug-induced revelations as plot devices, but when a whole extended edition became one long muddle of non-reality, it took away a lot of the enjoyment. Although the latest episode is an improvement on the last two, I'm getting fed up with the blurring of different "realities" and cheap tricks like the undead Mary, and as you say, I watched it for the editting and production values, not for the story.

Re spoilers: some of us are not in BBC-land and have to wait for each episode to become available, so I for one appreciate the spoiler tags, at least in the first few messages after the latest episode airs so that I know when to stop reading this thread!

reason vs religion

Penn wrote: »

I've heard it said that a great mystery is one where you get all the pieces throughout the story but it's only at the end that you see how they all fit together. A bad mystery is one where you just get all the pieces at the end practically already put together.

In fairness to Sherlock, the pieces about Sherlock's sister were there. The same actress playing all three roles (which I never copped), the repeated hints about something happening in his childhood which pointed to another brother (but like the first time Sherlock met John and thought his brother gave him his phone, it was a sister), "Miss Me?" being from his sister rather than Moriarty...

The pieces were there. The big mystery at the end was all the pieces we'd be given being put together as opposed to a shock surprise ending for the sake of it.

I thought it was done brilliantly.

I'm reading elsewhere about all the clues contained within the series: Sherlock assuming Watson had a brother in the first episode, the mention of an east wind coming, Mycroft using gender neutral terms, etc. But these don't strike me as clues! I'm calling for clues whose meanings can be debated, not ones whose existence is the centre of the debate. I'd love to make a compilation of similarly minor details that turn out to be utterly irrelevant.

Also, a gripe about Eurus: she didn't exactly need to be a master of disguise to conceal herself from Watson, who'd never met her, or from Sherlock, who it would seem has not met her since childhood. And she also has the fortune to look uncannily like Smith's daughter!

764dak

The season seems interesting.

dogsears

Was there meant to be some significance to the way Culverton Smith kept asking people how long they had worked for him with a really sinister look on his face? If it was just meant to intimidate them then so be it, I could see that, but it seemed like there was more to it than that, and if there was I didn't get what it was.

Basq

dogsears wrote: »

Was there meant to be some significance to the way Culverton Smith kept asking people how long they had worked for him with a really sinister look on his face?  If it was just meant to intimidate them then so be it, I could see that, but it seemed like there was more to it than that, and if there was I didn't get what it was.

At first, I remember thinking it was related to the ward that Sherlock was being detained in.

Culverton asked two people (Nurse Cornish when with the group of kids and Saheed in the mortuary) who said 7 and 4 years respectively. But ward was indicated as 73. So that's out.