Round 11: German Grand Prix

FrostyJack

This was blatant rule breaking.. Ferrari should be disqualified from this race to set an example.

Stupid rule and should have never been brought in the first place. Has been in formula one since day one.

LOL @ Massa's answers in press conference

amacachi

FrostyJack wrote: »

LOL @ Massa's answers in press conference

Press conference just starting on BBC, looking forward to Massa's answers.

Ghost Train

amacachi wrote: »

Did they break it?

I think so, they gave an instruction which influenced the finishing order

alonso saying it's unsafe is crap

Sabre0001

Ghost Train wrote: »

I think so, they gave an instruction which influenced the finishing order

alonso saying it's unsafe is crap

I only heard "Alonso is faster; do you understand the message". That is a statement followed by a question. What instruction did you hear?

Inquitus

Breaking the rules is cheating, regardless of whether the rule is right or not. Ferrari are a fecking disgrace, have been for a long while, and should be punished.

Ghost Train

Sabre0001 wrote: »

I only heard "Alonso is faster; do you understand the message". That is a statement followed by a question. What instruction did you hear?

That message resulted in massa slowing to let alonso pass

mercedes did ok considering grid spots

De Hipster

The intention was team orders followed by an apology to Massa. Blatant infringing of rule 39.1.

Frank Bullitt

I think its the right decision though,Alonso was around 30 points ahead of Massa before the race, so Massa was nearly 80 points off the lead of the overall lead in the championship.

People will bitch and moan about this and I myself feel that this is a hollow victory in a way for Ferrari,but it is for the championship,and Alonso is the only option for it for the team.

lord lucan

Simple in my eyes. If Alonso is faster than Massa then he'll pass him on the track. I'm sure the drivers are briefed before every race about team mates overtaking each other and the need for caution. If Alonso gets within striking distance of Massa and is genuinely faster then he'll pass him. There was plenty of spots where he could've passed,it wasn't Monaco with limited overtaking places.

Cookie_Monster

correct call
done in such a way so that it was not an order but a statement and question
rule should be cut as its a team sport anyway

amacachi

Smedley just showing there that it wasn't team orders, he was telling Massa to hurry up. :pac:

FrostyJack

Inquitus wrote: »

Breaking the rules is cheating, regardless of whether the rule is right or not. Ferrari are a fecking disgrace, have been for a long while, and should be punished.

Every race you here engineers saying switch to different fuel mix, ease on brakes etc, just another way of saying hold position until the end of race, how is that different to what happened today other than a place swap? It is team orders affecting the result of a race. Lets ban every team and cancel the whole thing? Ferrari were stupid for doing it so blanently but at the end of the day does that actually matter how they did it?

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

I think its the right decision though,Alonso was around 30 points ahead of Massa before the race, so Massa was nearly 80 points off the lead of the overall lead in the championship.

That has nothing to do with what happened..
Alonso has unfairly and illegally gained points on OTHER Teams that play it by the rules.

Cheating at its best ... You can count on Ferrari every time

Hope he gets disqualified for it

Mike Litoris

Schumacher talking ****e right now. Rules are rules.

recyclebin

Schumacher got done for blocking the track in qualifiying at monaco a few years ago. The reason he was done was partly down to the telemetry.

I'd say the same thing could happen to Ferrari. Massa had no reason to be going that slow coming out of that corner so the FIA have their evidence to penalise Ferrari if they want to.

Alun

amacachi wrote: »

Smedley just showing there that it wasn't team orders, he was telling Massa to hurry up. :pac:

Yeah, right! EJ was right when he said he deserved an Oscar for that performance.

FrostyJack

lord lucan wrote: »

Simple in my eyes. If Alonso is faster than Massa then he'll pass him on the track. I'm sure the drivers are briefed before every race about team mates overtaking each other and the need for caution. If Alonso gets within striking distance of Massa and is genuinely faster then he'll pass him. There was plenty of spots where he could've passed,it wasn't Monaco with limited overtaking places.

How many overtakes were done today do you know? 100? 10? Being faster on the track is one thing but once you get in the dirty air of the car infront it becomes a different kettle of fish. If the car has the same aero and power as you it is next to impossible, plus there is a chance you take him or both of you's out. In most tracks there are plenty of overtaking area in theory but in F1 the reality is different.

amacachi

vectra what did you think of Brazil 2007 where Raikkonen needed the win and Massa was clearly quicker all weekend and Raikkonen got past on "strategy"? How is it any different?

BoardsRanger

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Nope it was not a blatant infringement of the rule, it was not a team order. .

Then why did Massa lift off? Why did rob say "sorry"? It was an order. That said- it happens the whole time in F1 and has done so for years and you have to agree with Schumacher's comments- its about the championship and Fernando is better placed to fight for that. It was the right call from ferrari- just wished they didnt give it!

amacachi

BoardsRanger wrote: »

The why did Massa lift off? Why did rob say "sorry"? It was an order. That said- it happens the whole time in F1 and has done so for years and you have to agree with Schumacher's comments- its about the championshiop and Fernando is better placed to fight for that. It was the right call from ferrari- just wished they didnt give it!

Must have missed a gear.

cadaliac

recyclebin wrote: »

Schumacher got done for blocking the track in qualifiying at monaco a few years ago. The reason he was done was partly down to the telemetry.

I'd say the same thing could happen to Ferrari. Massa had no reason to be going that slow coming out of that corner so the FIA have their evidence to penalise Ferrari if they want to.

No you are wrong. MS blocked the track, hindering Alonso's quali lap, which would have been fastest. That was the reason.
FIA haven't a prayer of disqualifing Masa or Alonso over telemetry coming out of that corner.

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

That has nothing to do with what happened..
Alonso has unfairly and illegally gained points on OTHER Teams that play it by the rules.

Cheating at its best ... You can count on Ferrari every time

Hope he gets disqualified for it

They did it in Brazil in 2007, dont remember you giving out then?

Donnelly117

blatant team orders, alonso is an ass

De Hipster

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Nope it was not a blatant infringement of the rule, it was not a team order. Its against the good will nature of the sport but no rule was broken. It happens all the time and every team on the grid would do the same thing. People should get over it and move on.

If the rule is incorrect, challenge it...don't breach it.

Ferrari have never had much regard for the rules and regulations, proven throughout the years with Michael, Eddie & Rubens and now with Massa & Alonso.

It's not a case of get over it, it's a case of review the rules or ensure they are adhered to.

Eddie Jordan is clearly pushing to create revolutionary uproar with the fans...still ongoing on the red button coverage.

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

vectra what did you think of Brazil 2007 where Raikkonen needed the win and Massa was clearly quicker all weekend and Raikkonen got past on "strategy"? How is it any different?

Did Ferrari clearly give team orders to Felipe?? I cannot remember.

amacachi wrote: »

Must have missed a gear.

Anybody could clearly hear Massa going through three gears before he attempted to any form of racing.. Listen to it.
It was as if he was going for a Sunday drive.

Gintonious wrote: »

They did it in Brazil in 2007, dont remember you giving out then?

Did I not say this is why I detest Ferrari??
No matter who drives for them.. I would never like them

vectra

Donnelly117 wrote: »

blatant team orders, alonso is an ass

He is bigger than an Ass..
Did anyone hear him say something like "This is Ridiculous" when was FAILED in his ability to Pass Massa Fair and Square earlier on in the race.

amacachi

De Hipster wrote: »

If the rule is incorrect, challenge it...don't breach it.

Ferrari have never had much regard for the rules and regulations, proven throughout the years with Michael, Eddie & Rubens and now with Massa & Alonso.

It's not a case of get over it, it's a case of review the rules or ensure they are adhered to.

Eddie Jordan is clearly pushing to create revolutionary uproar with the fans...still ongoing on the red button coverage.

McLaren have no respect for the rule either, after Button tried to pass Hamilton having been told to save fuel already "SAVE FUEL. SAVE FUEL" but he still had enough to get back to the pits after the race strangely enough. Hamilton even said after the race that he was told to save fuel and that Button had been told to save fuel too which he understood to mean that Button wouldn't challenge him. Turned out Button didn't see it that way and got a bollocking on the radio about it.

FrostyJack

De Hipster wrote: »

If the rule is incorrect, challenge it...don't breach it.

Ferrari have never had much regard for the rules and regulations, proven throughout the years with Michael, Eddie & Rubens and now with Massa & Alonso.

It's not a case of get over it, it's a case of review the rules or ensure they are adhered to.

Eddie Jordan is clearly pushing to create revolutionary uproar with the fans...still ongoing on the red button coverage.

Eddie Jordan is a the Eamon Dunphy of F1, sometimes he is right on the money, but everytime he is looking to drag up controversy. EJ and a grain of salt go hand in hand. 99% of the time I go with Brundle, as I do again today.

Ghost Train

Glad to see massa not making up some bull**** answers to the questions like the rest of the team, wise just not to answer.

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Did Ferrari clearly give team orders to Felipe?? I cannot remember.

They pitted him 4 laps early to compromise his strategy.

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Did Ferrari clearly give team orders to Felipe?? I cannot remember.

Was there an instruction given today? Or are you going to be obtuse about the Brazilian GP like I can be about today's incident? Why would Ferrari have given their fastest driver the worst strategy?

De Hipster

FrostyJack wrote: »

Eddie Jordan is a the Eamon Dunphy of F1, sometimes he is right on the money, but everytime he is looking to drag up controversy. EJ and a grain of salt go hand in hand. 99% of the time I go with Brundle, as I do again today.

Funny that considering Brundle is right now agreeing with EJ's interpretation.

Voodu Child

F1 is a spectator sport first and foremost. It's clear that people don't like watching this kind of carry on, it creates controversy every time it happens, and preventing stuff like this is the reason that rule 39.1 was introduced.

You can argue the semantics of the rule all you want, or the exact wording of the message, but at the end of the day, only an idiot would deny the intention of the radio message. It was a team order, plain and simple. Hence, it contravenes rule 39.1 and I think when the dust settles, the Ferrari's will be removed from the final standings.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

They pitted him 4 laps early to compromise his strategy.

I still do not remember them saying to Maassa "Come in 4 laps early..Kimi is faster than you..Do you understand the message" :rolleyes:

amacachi wrote: »

Was there an instruction given today?

On that note I wont even bother trying to answer

amacachi

Using a code word is stupid, that is a direct team order.

vectra

Voodu Child wrote: »

I think when the dust settles, the Ferrari's will be removed from the final standings.

And rightly so

amacachi

The people baying for blood, how is this worse than all the "fuel-saving" bull**** throughout the season? How is it worst than switching positions by pitting? Why is it only when it's done in full view that it's deemed to be a bannable offence?

De Hipster

It's exactly what they deserve, both drivers & constructor points removed for both cars over the event.

EvilMonkey

Gutted for Massa
The right result for Ferrari.

Massa let Kimi through in 07, Kimi let Massa through in 08, Massa let Alonso through in 10.

Massa let Alonso past given all the information "Alonso is FASTER" there was no team order Massa chose to do what's best for the team. If Ferrari gave an order maybe they would say don't make it so obvious.

Team order rule is stupid, every team bends this rule every race. Lots of people sounding like hypocrites this week (EJ and Horner especially)

Poor start again from Vettel Massa must have been delighted when he moved off the line to defend from Alonso. Vettel too busy looking in the mirrors!

After the pitstops the race was a procession!

Frank Bullitt

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85539

amacachi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

After the pitstops the race was a procession!

Look what I said before the race started. :pac:


Absolutely ridiculous if Ferrari get done for this, McLaren will have to be investigated for Turkey.

Myrddin

Alonso saying "This is ridiculous!" when he couldn't get past Massa. The only thing thats ridiculous, is the childish & spoilt attitude this fool brings to the sport. He couldn't get past his team mate, so had a little whinge on the radio. There was nothing stopping him putting pressure on Massa, in the hopes of making him run wide and then being able to overtake legitimately.

Massa's engineer - "Fernando is faster then you...do you underatand the message?". Now unless Massa's English is THAT bad, that his engineer thought he might have trouble understanding the above five words, I think it's pretty clear that there was a hidden meaning to the message. All the lads above & in previous pages trying to be politically correct & stating there were no team orders behind that message, well delude yourselves all you want lads. But don't try and force the politically correct opinion on anyone who lives in the real world. It was a team order, and so many things happened after it, that to deny it, is frankly baffling.

Pre-Ceremony. Alonso's false hanging around Massa was cringe worthy. Minutes beforehand he was whinging on the radio that he was being held up by Massa. Massa was CLEARLY disappointed by what had happened. He knows the team are bowing to his new team mates strops/whnging. After getting out of the car the hug was less genuine than a scanned & printed ten euro note. Massa is NOT that childish to act like that, if he had of made a mistake & Alonso passed him genuinely.

The Ceremony - Massa didn't spray any rose water at Alonso. NOT ONE DROP. Even Alonso sprays it at Hamilton at times, I found this very telling.

The Press-Conference. Fernando avoided the final question with the skill & poise of a Fianna Fail minister. He conveniently left the explanation of the switch up to Massa, & simply shrugged his shoulders. Massa'a leg was jiggling around, clearly furious. When Massa was asked did he make a mistake, he stated "No". And when pressed again, "No, he passed me. Thats all I'm going to say". Again, Massa is NOT so childish to act this way if the switch was fault of his own.

Plenty more things happened to build a case to prove Ferrari broke the rule. Jurys don't need as much convincing as the lads above who are denying it. Choosing not to read between the lines & taking Ferrari's word for it is an astonishing display of ignorance. People are tried and convicted based on evidence built against them. If the question was put to them & they answered "No, I did not commit murder", should they be let go?

Ferrari today clearly broke the rules. I'm not disputing the validity of the rule, thats a different discussion. I know teams do it all the time, but being so open about it is of course going to cause huge controversy. Fair play to EJ, fair play to Horner, & most of all fair play to Massa...because if it was me, I'd probably have told the reporters I was ordered to slow. What can the team do? Sack him for exposing their cheating? I pity him today. I pity anyone who has to work with Alonso.

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

Alonso saying "This is ridiculous!" when he couldn't get past Massa. The only thing thats ridiculous, is the childish & spoilt attitude this fool brings to the sport. He couldn't get past his team mate, so had a little whinge on the radio. There was nothing stopping him putting pressure on Massa, in the hopes of making him run wide and then being able to overtake legitimately.

Massa's engineer - "Fernando is faster then you...do you underatand the message?". Now unless Massa's English is THAT bad, that his engineer thought he might have trouble understanding the above five words, I think it's pretty clear that there was a hidden meaning to the message. All the lads above & in previous pages trying to be politically correct & stating there were no team orders behind that message, well delude yourselves all you want lads. But don't try and force the politically correct opinion on anyone who lives in the real world. It was a team order, and so many things happened after it, that to deny it, is frankly baffling.

Where's your outrage been for the last 4 or 5 years? Is it only when it's an on-track pass that it's bad but it's fine if it's in the pits or when they're told not to pass?

EvilMonkey

amacachi wrote: »

Look what I said before the race started. :pac:


Absolutely ridiculous if Ferrari get done for this, McLaren will have to be investigated for Turkey.

What about today? Button was closing on Hamilton and they both go into fuel saving mode and hold station rather than fight each other to the end.

That order hurt Button because he couldn't attack Hamilton, a breach of rule?

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

The people baying for blood, how is this worse than all the "fuel-saving" bull**** throughout the season? How is it worst than switching positions by pitting? Why is it only when it's done in full view that it's deemed to be a bannable offence?

Thats strategy, by saving fuel are you affecting another car in front? By strtegically pitting & gaining a place, are you telling another car to slow down?

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

Where's your outrage been for the last 4 or 5 years? Is it only when it's an on-track pass that it's bad but it's fine if it's in the pits or when they're told not to pass?

How do you know I watched F1 five years ago? My outrage comes from flagrancy for rules, I believe in fair play. Have another look at Massa's exit from his car through to the end of the press conference. Ask him why people are angry...

amacachi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

What about today? Button was closing on Hamilton and they both go into fuel saving mode and hold station rather than fight each other to the end.

That order hurt Button because he couldn't attack Hamilton, a breach of rule?

Ah no, most people seem to think it's fine as long as there's no on-track switch of position. Same thing happened in Turkey, except Button decided to take the message literally and didn't read between the lines and still pressed while saving fuel, which led to "SAVE FUEL! SAVE FUEL!" even though he had half a lap left over at the end. But hey, nothing obvious happened so it's fine in most peoples' eyes.

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

Thats strategy, by saving fuel are you affecting another car in front? By strtegically pitting & gaining a place, are you telling another car to slow down?

By pitting a car early or late it's easy to slow a car down either by filling it with fuel (the last few years) or sticking it into traffic now. You're not just telling a car to slow down, you're forcing it to.
And again, look at Turkey this year, both McLarens were told to save fuel and Button still had enough pace to challege Hamilton and got shouted at for it and was lied to and told he needed to save even more fuel.

EnterNow wrote: »

How do you know I watched F1 five years ago? My outrage comes from flagrancy for rules, I believe in fair play. Have another look at Massa's exit from his car through to the end of the press conference. Ask him why people are angry...

I assumed you would've been watching it a while, apologies if you weren't. If you believe in fair play then why are you ok with drivers being told to hold station and don't overtake?

Ghost Train

amacachi wrote: »

Look what I said before the race started. :pac:


Absolutely ridiculous if Ferrari get done for this, McLaren will have to be investigated for Turkey.

I think you're right that there's two standards. Thing is it's much more obvious what's going on when the race positions are switched. If it was easy to fix the result mclaren and redbull might have had an easier season controlling their drivers

amacachi

Ghost Train wrote: »

I think you're right that there's two standards. Thing is it's much more obvious what's going on when the race positions are switched. If it was easy to fix the result mclaren and redbull might have had an easier season controlling their drivers

Once again just look at Turkey, McLaren actually lied to Button to stop him trying to overtake Hamilton again even though he was clearly faster.