Round 11: German Grand Prix

vectra

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That rule needs to be gotten rid of, it IS a team sport after all.

To an extent yes,,
BUT
only ONE driver can win the wdc.. and to be fair you need to win the races through your own merits..

Cookie_Monster

just as an aside, within this whole situation. we did hear very little radio chatter, which may bias the outcome slightly or throw more info on it. Probably doesn't but its a pity so little was (and is in general) broadcast

Alun

Ghost Train wrote: »

I see Ferrari not going to appeal the punishment.

No, but I see that the matter is going to be referred to the WMC, so we may see more punishments for Ferrari yet.

Myrddin

manutd4life wrote: »

What I don't get is why everyone is blaming Alonso

Alonso's team radio broadcasted him saying "This is ridiculous!!" when he was behind Massa

I don't buy that argument about being faster but caught in dirty air either. I know it happens, but its a cop-out if I ever heard one. If thats the case, whoever is leading after the first turn should win the race, as overtaking is apparently impossible (pitstops aside). They should have been allowed race, it's whats written in the rules, we were deprived of an epic battle.

smooch71

FrostyJack wrote: »

Eddie Jordan is a the Eamon Dunphy of F1,

Ha ha, that is so true!

Its very interesting to read the level of anger felt by people, on this forum and others.
Like everyone's been "cheated" of a great race and a great fight to the flag blah blah blah

But in reality team orders have been happening before and since the rule change and will continue to happen.

Ferrari's decision was the right one, Alonso is reasonably ahead of Massa in the championship and looking at their results so far, realistically looks more likely to challenge for the title. So yes, he should have been allowed to pass.

But the way Ferrari handled the whole thing was totally appalling and they've only themselves to blame for the sh1t that follows.

Raikkonen won the 2007 championship because of a team order but that order was giving in a much more subtle manner.

If they had told Massa to go into fuel conservation mode or something, making the pass more genuine looking, we wouldn't all be having this discussion.

Ferrari could learn a thing or two from the McLaren school of slipperyness.

smooch71

EnterNow wrote: »

whoever is leading after the first turn should win the race

Now, would that be classed a team order?

Cookie_Monster

smooch71 wrote: »

Now, would that be classed a team order?

and make the whole point of racing irrelevant

Vegeta

Pretty crap race bar the scandal

Was laughing at Massa's answers to the interview questions. He was blunt as fcuk about it

Surprised by performance gap between Vettel's and Webber's cars. Again the McLaren cars finishing strongly in the points

Myrddin

smooch71 wrote: »

Now, would that be classed a team order?

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and make the whole point of racing irrelevant

It's a counter comment to "Alonso was way faster, but couldn't overtake because he was stuck in turbulent air". If saying that is valid, then how does anyone EVER overtake?

FrostyJack

McLaren used to have a rule whoever led into the first corner was allowed win the race, or something to that affect. It was so anti-racing and runing many of them. It was agreed between the drivers, but has the same affect as team orders except no one's feelings/ego is hurt.

It's a counter comment to "Alonso was way faster, but couldn't overtake because he was stuck in turbulent air". If saying that is valid, then how does anyone EVER overtake?

Did you mean this as a serious question?

losthorizon

This is the punishment handed out by the FIA to Menu. Alonso and Massa broke the exact smae rule along with Ferrari. It deserves the same punishment. They all broke the same rule. http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=5018

Frank Bullitt

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/what-the-fia-should-do-about-team-orders-in-formula-1/

I think this is bang on.

Myrddin

FrostyJack wrote: »

Did you mean this as a serious question?

If you mean am I looking for an answer, no. No that's a rhetorical question. Why couldn't Alonso legitimately overtake Massa? I mean he did it earlier in the race where turbulence obviously wasn't an issue, so what was to stop him doing it again?

amacachi

We heard one sentence of what Alonso said, unless there's full transcripts released there's 2 things off the top of my head that Alonso may have been right to complain about, either he was annoyed at himself/the car for not being able to make up time or he'd been told to "save fuel" or to not overtake.

FrostyJack

Gintonious wrote: »

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/what-the-fia-should-do-about-team-orders-in-formula-1/

I think this is bang on.

Exactly my sentiments. The minute I heard the order, I immediatly thought the same as Irvine.

manutd4life

EnterNow wrote: »

Alonso's team radio broadcasted him saying "This is ridiculous!!" when he was behind Massa

I don't buy that argument about being faster but caught in dirty air either. I know it happens, but its a cop-out if I ever heard one. If thats the case, whoever is leading after the first turn should win the race, as overtaking is apparently impossible (pitstops aside). They should have been allowed race, it's whats written in the rules, we were deprived of an epic battle.

What about the Massa/ Raikkonen switch at Interlagos in 2007? What about the Hamilton/Kovalainen switches at Silverstone and Hockenheim in 2008? What about the Massa/Raikkonen switch in China in 2008? If the FIA are going to take points away from Ferrari for what happened yesterday, they may as well take Hamilton's and Raikkonen's World titles away from them

Ghost Train

manutd4life wrote: »

What about the Massa/ Raikkonen switch at Interlagos in 2007? What about the Hamilton/Kovalainen switches at Silverstone and Hockenheim in 2008? What about the Massa/Raikkonen switch in China in 2008? If the FIA are going to take points away from Ferrari for what happened yesterday, they may as well take Hamilton's and Raikkonen's World titles away from them

The differance is driver decision to let teammate past, no team orders over the radio. It's sporting not to hold up your teammate if he's fighting for world championship and you're not.

I think at the end of it if they get to keep the points its a bit of a joke. Pretty clear breach of the rules should should lose them all points won while breaking the rules. While the rule is there you have to follow it

smooch71

Ghost Train wrote: »

The differance is driver decision to let teammate past, no team orders over the radio. It's sporting not to hold up your teammate if he's fighting for world championship and you're not.

I think at the end of it if they get to keep the points its a bit of a joke. Pretty clear breach of the rules should should lose them all points won while breaking the rules. While the rule is there you have to follow it

You're totally wrong there.

No driver is going to let his team mate past unless he's told to.

The difference in what happened on Sunday is that Rob Smedley didn't agree with the decision so made sure the whole world knew about it.

What Ferrari did was not the issue, it was how they did it.

losthorizon

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

LOL at Schumachers interview. No BS, telling it exactly as it is.

I wonder how he would react though if the interviewer asked him if he regarded himself as the number 2 driver to Nico Rosberg?

Myrddin

smooch71 wrote: »

The difference in what happened on Sunday is that Rob Smedley didn't agree with the decision so made sure the whole world knew about it.

What Ferrari did was not the issue, it was how they did it.

That sums up the whole thread in two sentences :cool:

robinph

Have to lol at them talking about coded messages being given on the news today. A coded message would have been something along the lines of "The fox is in the chicken coop", there was no code in what they said.

amacachi

robinph wrote: »

Have to lol at them talking about coded messages being given on the news today. A coded message would have been something along the lines of "The fox is in the chicken coop", there was no code in what they said.

Well this is it, if a team has a code then it's straight-up team orders, whereas what Ferrari did weren't direct team orders in the same way.

Frank Bullitt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8856345.stm

Another well worded point. I also love how the other teams are saying "we would never do that", lets see what happens on the last day of the season when one car is leading another and needs the other to pull over etc.

Myrddin

robinph wrote: »

Have to lol at them talking about coded messages

Strange then, that they didn't appeal the fine.

EvilMonkey

EnterNow wrote: »

Strange then, that they didn't appeal the fine.

Maybe Ferrari thinks the FIA needs the money more than they do

You can bet your life they would have appealed any penalty that cost them points!

vectra

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Maybe Ferrari thinks the FIA needs the money more than they do

You can bet your life they would have appealed any penalty that cost them points!

That could happen at the WMSC meeting yet

vectra

hotwhiskey wrote: »

Vettel and that finger!!!!!!!!!!

Vegeta wrote: »

Most annoying celebration ever

LOL
Saw this on Pitpass... Made me think of you guys

race fans puzzle over why the German holds up one finger after every win or pole position, it took Ferrari to give the finger to the sport and its fans.

:D

EvilMonkey

vectra wrote: »

That could happen at the WMSC meeting yet

Yeah I'm sure they would appeal in that case too. Cant have a good F1 season without a trip to Paris

vectra

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Yeah I'm sure they would appeal in that case too. Cant have a good F1 season without a trip to Paris

Might be a good palce for a new track.. "Courtroom just round the corner there lads"

EvilMonkey

Has anyone seen the pics of Ferrari and Red Bulls "alleged!" flexing front wings they were talking about before the race?

amacachi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Has anyone seen the pics of Ferrari and Red Bulls "alleged!" flexing front wings they were talking about before the race?

No, didn't think there were any around. But hey, come on, this is the super efficient FiA, if it passed scrutineering it's not like they'd ever change their mind.

EvilMonkey

amacachi wrote: »

No, didn't think there were any around. But hey, come on, this is the super efficient FiA, if it passed scrutineering it's not like they'd ever change their mind.

Just wouldn't mind having a look at them! It annoyed me BBC were talking about them and didn't have anything to show. I thought all the photographers would be out in force for the race or at least a slowmo shot or 2

I read somewhere that Martin Whitmarsh went into Ferrari and asked them how there doing it. He didn't say what there answer was, GTFO i guess.
It amused me though, doubt that would have happened with Ron and Todt still around.

amacachi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Just wouldn't mind having a look at them! It annoyed me BBC were talking about them and didn't have anything to show. I thought all the photographers would be out in force for the race or at least a slowmo shot or 2

I read somewhere that Martin Whitmarsh went into Ferrari and asked them how there doing it. He didn't say what there answer was, GTFO i guess.
It amused me though, doubt that would have happened with Ron and Todt still around.

Don't think pics would be much use, and I'd assume they hadn't got onboard cameras in useful places, didn't they get Ferrari to "fix" a flexy front wing a few seasons ago, looked obvious on the onboards at the time but the FiA said "Ah no, it's fine!" then a couple of races later told them to get rid of it but didn't penalise them retroactively.

EvilMonkey

amacachi wrote: »

Don't think pics would be much use, and I'd assume they hadn't got onboard cameras in useful places, didn't they get Ferrari to "fix" a flexy front wing a few seasons ago, looked obvious on the onboards at the time but the FiA said "Ah no, it's fine!" then a couple of races later told them to get rid of it but didn't penalise them retroactively.

Found some i doubt any one will be lodging a protest.



Few more here with comparison shots of McLaren and Merc

http://www.darrenheath.com

amacachi

Have to admit the Red Bull does look a bit droopy.

EvilMonkey

Yeah there seems to be a bit of bend in the Red Bull wing

amacachi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Yeah there seems to be a bit of bend in the Red Bull wing

CHEATS! CHEATS! They should be thrown out! They're obviously purposely breaking the rules in full view of everyone! The audacity! The cheek! They should be fined a trillion dollars and never allowed race again!

Frank Bullitt

The Red Bull seems more obvious than the Ferrari, but the point was made by both teams that the angles are different and that the cars could have been going over bumps etc.

Even still McLaren are going to try and copy it.

Ghost Train

Here are some videos which claim to show it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR07o6yIegg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il1KexFnjwA

and this

amacachi

Ghost Train wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR07o6yIegg

Looks pretty flexy to me, but it got through scrutineering so it's fine.

Frank Bullitt

If the FIA say both teams wings are cool then they must have exposed a loophole somehow, cause the wing is really flexing on the Red Bull,iv not seen a video for the Ferrari though.

Ghost Train

LIGHTNING wrote: »

None of that proves anything, as the car moves around i.e under braking the ride height of the car slighty changes. Thats all you can see from the above photos/videos.

the camera is fixed to the car, the wing is fixed to the car. Any movement of the wing is flexing. Suspension and ride height will move about of course.

The advantage will in be high speed corners where there's enough downforce to flex the wing

Ghost Train

LIGHTNING wrote: »

The suspension isnt however (not to mention the movement in the tyre walls). Look at the last photo one car is on a straight the other is going over a crest.

Well you have to look at the wing relative to the car.
Theres probably always going to be a bit of flex in the wing but seems to be more on Redbull & Ferrari
Heres 4 more comparisons from Germany
http://omg.wthax.org/redb.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/ferr.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/ren.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/merc.jpg

EvilMonkey

Thanks for posting the pics, its really hard to see much moment.
I am sure there is a bit of flex in all the wings and some more than others.
They were passed by the scrutineers so are legal until someone comes up with a test that shows they are not and even then they could only be asked to change the wing design. A few teams were asked to change their diffusers at the start of the season. Good to see they are pushing the limits.

I just wanted to see what the fuss was about.

amacachi

LIGHTNING wrote: »

None of that proves anything, as the car moves around i.e under braking the ride height of the car slighty changes. Thats all you can see from the above photos/videos.

I dunno, to me it definitely looks like the wing is flexing rather than snapping forward as I thought it would under breaking.

EvilMonkey

amacachi wrote: »

I dunno, to me it definitely looks like the wing is flexing rather than snapping forward as I thought it would under breaking.

Here's a pic from December testing. I wonder what Red Bull are measuring



Also it would be good to know what the FIAs tests are and what the teams are allowed.

3.17.1 Bodywork may deflect no more than 10mm vertically when a 500N load is applied vertically to it 800mm
forward of the front wheel centre line and 795mm from the car centre line. The load will be applied in a
downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram and an adapter 300mm long and 150mm wide. Teams
must supply the latter when such a test is deemed necessary.

The load will be applied in a downward direction through pads measuring 200mm x 100mm which conform
to the shape of the bodywork beneath them, and with their uppermost horizontal surface 970mm above the
reference plane. The load will be applied to the centre of area of the pads. Teams must supply the latter
when such a test is deemed necessary.

FIA reserves the right to
introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of),
moving whilst the car is in motion.

Wings are going to flex a bit it would be impossible to stop it they do be bouncing all over the place when the cars hit a curb. Do we have a situation where the cars are legal in Parc ferme and illegal on the track?(i think that has happened a few times McLaren's Michelin tyres spring to mind)

frostie500

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Here's a pic from December testing. I wonder what Red Bull are measuring

That looks like an air pressure monitor

vincenzolorenzo

frostie500 wrote: »

That looks like an air pressure monitor

Don't think its for measuring air pressure. A pitot tube would be used for that. I'd imagine there's a load sensor inside that black box and they're measuring wing load/deflection

EvilMonkey

LOL, robbed from twitter

vectra

EvilMonkey wrote: »

LOL, robbed from twitter
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/_EvilMonkey_/136550502.jpg

PMSL