McDowell calls for 12 July to be public holiday in Ireland

reprazant

aDeener wrote: »

it changed irish history alright, but not for the better. i find it mind boggling as to why anyone would want to celebrate it

You don't think that one of the most important dates in Irish history should be marked?

Marking an important date in history does not necessarily mean that you are celebrating it.

Wolfe Tone

reprazant wrote: »

You don't think that one of the most important dates in Irish history should be marked?

Marking an important date in history does not necessarily mean that you are celebrating it.

Do you believe it should be marked the way it is in the north?

aDeener

reprazant wrote: »

You don't think that one of the most important dates in Irish history should be marked?

Marking an important date in history does not necessarily mean that you are celebrating it.

okay then in what way would you want it "marked"?

we are not living in ignorance about the 12th, we are taught about it in school. it is on the news. what more do you want, if its not to celebrate it?

reprazant

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Do you believe it should be marked the way it is in the north?

It would seem you are trying to gauge if I am a member or a supporter of the Orange Order.

I am neither, nor am I from the North, not that that should make a difference.

I personally don't care about peoples religion, which is pretty much what the men who created this republic wanted, hence the 3 colours of the flag.

It was a major event in Irish history for all concerned, no matter what their religion and I feel it should be marked. Feel free to pretend it didn't happen.

Wolfe Tone

reprazant wrote: »

It would seem you are trying to gauge if I am a member or a supporter of the Orange Order.

I am neither, nor am I from the North, not that that should make a difference.

I personally don't care about peoples religion, which is pretty much what the men who created this republic wanted, hence the 3 colours of the flag.

It was a major event in Irish history for all concerned, no matter what their religion and I feel it should be marked. Feel free to pretend it didn't happen.

How should it be marked? I don't pretend it didnt happen, in fact last week I paid a trip to the site.

reprazant

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Do you believe it should be marked the way it is in the north?

Why? I do not care what happens in the North.

This thread is about should there be a bank holiday for the 12th.

I think there should, and have detailed why.

Please take your orange order fascination elsewhere.

Iwasfrozen

reprazant wrote: »

Why? I do not care what happens in the North.

This thread is about should there be a bank holiday for the 12th.

I think there should, and have detailed why.

Please take your orange order fascination elsewhere.

He asked you how you would like to see this "event" marked? If not celebrated then presumably you would like to see it mourned? Not exactly a good reason to have a holiday is it?

And for those of you bringing the flag into this don't make the mistake that orange = orange order. All orange order men are protestants but not all protestants are orange order men.

reprazant

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

He asked you how you would like to see this "event" marked? If not celebrated then presumably you would like to see it mourned? Not exactly a good reason to have a holiday is it?

And for those of you bringing the flag into this don't make the mistake that orange = orange order. All orange order men are protestants but not all protestants are orange order men.

And I said that it should be marked with a bank holiday.

Does every holiday have to be celebratory?

Do we only mark the parts of history in which good things happened?

Wolfe Tone

reprazant wrote: »

And I said that it should be marked with a bank holiday.

Does every holiday have to be celebratory?

Do we only mark the parts of history in which good things happened?

So, just a day off and nothing else?

reprazant

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So, just a day off and nothing else?

Maybe a commemeration at the site of the battle.

Why, what do you think should happen?

Why exactly is it too 'sectarian' a day to commemorate in the Republic?

Wolfe Tone

reprazant wrote: »

Maybe a commemeration at the site of the battle.

Why, what do you think should happen?

Why exactly is it too 'sectarian' a day to commemorate in the Republic?

Now, by commemoration do you mean celebration?

Because the 12th and the OO and the bands go hand in hand.

reprazant

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Now, by commemoration do you mean celebration?

Because the 12th and the OO and the bands go hand in hand.

The 12th and the OO go hand in hand in the North. The same cannot be said for in the Republic now, can it? Once again, we are talking about a bank holiday in the republic. Why is a bank holiday in the republic on the 12th too sectarian'?

Also, I fail to see why you are being so obtuse about the commemoration issue. Do all commemoration's have to be a celebration? The 90th anniversary of the Easter Rising was commemorated with a wreath outside the GPO.

Iwasfrozen

reprazant wrote: »

The 12th and the OO go hand in hand in the North. The same cannot be said for in the Republic now, can it? Once again, we are talking about a bank holiday in the republic. Why is a bank holiday in the republic on the 12th too sectarian'?

Because we don't want to mark the defeat of the battle of the boyne which lead to the dissolution of the patriot parliment, introduction of the penal laws and eventually the great famine.

reprazant wrote: »

Also, I fail to see why you are being so obtuse about the commemoration issue. Do all commemoration's have to be a celebration? The 90th anniversary of the Easter Rising was commemorated with a wreath outside the GPO.

Why in the name of Jesus would we make it a bank holiday if we weren't going to celebrate it?

reprazant

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why in the name of Jesus would we make it a bank holiday if we weren't going to celebrate it?

To commemorate it. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You don't have to celebrate every holiday.

You can use it for commemoration also.

Iwasfrozen

reprazant wrote: »

To commemorate it. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You don't have to celebrate every holiday.

You can use it for commemoration also.

Why would we want to commemorate it? We don't commemorate the Siege of Kinsale.

reprazant

Is your rational because one important battle was is not commemorated, therefore no other battles should be commemorated?

LordSutch

Fuhrer wrote: »

I know, I was making the point that if the Orange on the flag = The orange order then the green must then = The IRA

Try to keep up.

I still don't see what you are getting at, I don't see the green IRA thing at all. (Green = terrorists maybe)? is that what you mean?

Lets leave it there.

Iwasfrozen

reprazant wrote: »

Is your rational because one important battle was is not commemorated, therefore no other battles should be commemorated?

No I don't believe the winners of any divisive battle should be able to rub it in the losers face.

Using your logic the Russians should be able to march down Unter den Linden to commemorate the victory of the battle of Berlin.

Now perhaps you should tell me why you want to see it celebrated?

Iwasfrozen

LordSutch wrote: »

I still don't see what you are getting at, I don't see the green IRA thing at all. (Green = terrorists maybe)? is that what you mean?

Sure because there were no protestant terrorists.

reprazant

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I don't believe the winners of any divisive battle should be able to rub it in the losers face.

Using your logic the Russians should be able to march down Unter den Linden to commemorate the victory of the battle of Berlin.

Now perhaps you should tell me why you want to see it celebrated?

What are you talking about?

Where have I said that the winners should be allowed rub the losers faces in it?

Like MUSSOLINI you seem think that I mean for the OO to march down O'Connell street or something. I have repeated pointed out that this is not the case, even though, he and now you, seem to refuse to see thing. Both of you seem to think that I would like the invite them down for a shindig in the city.

Since, the OO are not in the republic, how exactly are the winners going to be able to "rub it in the losers face"? Your comparison is false and insulting.

Iwasfrozen

reprazant wrote: »

What are you talking about?

The thread topic. I thought that was obvious.

reprazant wrote: »

Where have I said that the winners should be allowed rub the losers faces in it?

Like MUSSOLINI you seem think that I mean for the OO to march down O'Connell street or something. I have repeated pointed out that this is not the case, even though, he and now you, seem to refuse to see thing. Both of you seem to think that I would like the invite them down for a shindig in the city.

In that case apologies I seem to have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

reprazant wrote: »

Since, the OO are not in the republic, how exactly are the winners going to be able to "rub it in the losers face"? Your comparison is false and insulting.

There are plenty of catholics in the north though. How is my comparison insulting? It's the same logic.

Also you haven't answered my question, why do you want to see the 12th of July made a holiday? For what reason?

reprazant

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There are plenty of catholics in the north though. How is my comparison insulting? It's the same logic.

While there may be plenty of catholics in the North, this thread is in reference to a bank holiday in the south. Are catholics in the north really so sensitive that they would take great insult to the south having a bank holiday on the 12th?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Also you haven't answered my question, why do you want to see the 12th of July made a holiday? For what reason?

I would like it to be a bank holiday for 2 reasons, it is a battle of grave importance in the history of Ireland, and also because we have toss all bank holidays compared to the rest of Europe and if we are to have one, it may as well be for something of importance rather then just a random day just to have another bank holiday. I would also take many other important historical dates, but we were debating the 12th.

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Denerick usually the stuff you post is excellent and thought provoking but this?


I dont think a essentially bigoted organisation like the OO should have any place in any society. Do you? Of course the OO are not the only ones who march, we also have bands commemorating UVF people too.

Would a better idea not be to do something like create a new national holiday, not on the 12th, one which everyone can participate in? The 12th is too sectarian imo.

There are thousands of people active in the OO who are not sectarian. It is a community event in large swathes of the north, with people passively participating in the stuff. In most places its a day out for the kids.

1916 is commemmorated and to a large portion of this country it is considered a stab in the back against the 000s of Irishmen fighting and dying in the First World War. I'm sure Orangemen aren't too fond of those kinds of celebrations.

Shall the twain ever meet? I certainly hope so. I'd love to see Gerry Adams speak at an Orange Order event and see David Trimble speak at a 1916 commemmoration. That would be the first sign of this country turing a corner.

T runner

reprazant wrote: »

While there may be plenty of catholics in the North, this thread is in reference to a bank holiday in the south. Are catholics in the north really so sensitive that they would take great insult to the south having a bank holiday on the 12th?

Ofcourse they are. Many Catholics in the North are citizens of this Republic. Cow-towing to the Unionist standpoint to the extreme of having a public holiday to commemorate a battle which has been used as a triumphalist symbol of sectarianism in the North would be too much I fear.

I would like it to be a bank holiday for 2 reasons, it is a battle of grave importance in the history of Ireland,

It was a battle between two would be English Kings that happened to be fought in Ireland. It had littleto do with Ireland.

The Easter rising was a far more significant date in Irish History. An extra bank holiday in the Republic to celebrate those brave radical men and women would be far more apt.

The reason that the twelfth is a public holiday in the Norh is not to commemorate a significant battle in Irish history. It is to celebrate a battle that they see as establishing Protestant dominance in Ireland.

It is not a majopr event in Irish historical terms but has been hijacked by a sectarian element in Ulster. It is most unsuitable for a national bank holiday.

T runner

Denerick wrote: »

1916 is commemmorated and to a large portion of this country it is considered a stab in the back against the 000s of Irishmen fighting and dying in the First World War. I'm sure Orangemen aren't too fond of those kinds of celebrations.

A large portion of this country? Speak for yourself.

The vast majority of Irish people support the idea of Irish independence.
Most of these see the 1916 rising as necessary to achieving meaningful independence. Irish people at the time certainly did judging by election results.

The stab in the back to Irish soldiers is a myth Im afraid.

A biased story in the Unionist paper of repute of the day about war widows jeering the 1916 soldiers because the pension was delayed has been blown out of all proportion.

Soldiers who fought in the war for Irish indepence or the Union with Britain were duped. All they succeded in getting was the disastrous partition of Ireland. A British solution to an Irish problem unfortunately.

T runner

reprazant wrote: »

Why is a bank holiday in the republic on the 12th too sectarian'?

Because of the 12th's strong links to a sectarian organisation, namely the Orange Order.

Fratton Fred

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because we don't want to mark the defeat of the battle of the boyne which lead to the dissolution of the patriot parliment, introduction of the penal laws and eventually the great famine.

Apparantly it is also responsible for the floods in Pakistan, forest fires in Russia and B*witched.

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

The vast majority of Irish people support the idea of Irish independence.

Indeed, and at the time they might have gone with Home Rule, but . . .

T runner wrote: »

Most of these see the 1916 rising as necessary to achieving meaningful independence. Irish people at the time certainly did judging by election results.

Think you will find that there was little or no public support for the 1916 rising, the support came following the execution of the Rebel leaders.

T runner wrote: »

The stab in the back to Irish soldiers is a myth Im afraid.

Well it was a stab in the back, that's why the public hated the Rebels.

Iwasfrozen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Apparantly it is also responsible for the floods in Pakistan, forest fires in Russia and B*witched.

How prey tell did you work that one out? Or is this an attempt at being sarcastic? An attitude more suited to AH then here.

Iwasfrozen

reprazant wrote: »

While there may be plenty of catholics in the North, this thread is in reference to a bank holiday in the south. Are catholics in the north really so sensitive that they would take great insult to the south having a bank holiday on the 12th?

Ehhh, yes. Funny enough but they would. And as another poster has pointed out many northern catholics are irish citizens.

reprazant wrote: »

I would like it to be a bank holiday for 2 reasons, it is a battle of grave importance in the history of Ireland,

One which the irish lost...

reprazant wrote: »

and also because we have toss all bank holidays compared to the rest of Europe and if we are to have one, it may as well be for something of importance rather then just a random day just to have another bank holiday. I would also take many other important historical dates, but we were debating the 12th.

So you want to celebrate a military defeat of ireland which heralded catholic opression because you want one extra lie in a year???!

unbe-fúcking-lievable...

20Cent

I'm all for tolerance but when someone wants to march over you, literally, then its time to take a stand. McDowell is a fool and making the 12 a holiday would be foolish also.

johnnyskeleton

aDeener wrote: »

catholics do not have a monopoly on st. patrick, we would be better off trying to get rid of that silly misconception than celebrating a day in honour of bigotry

Protestants don't have a monopoly on the battle of the boyne either. In fact, the two are relatively meaningless for most people except for Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants.

On the other hand, the more national holidays the better.

Can we have a week off for Chinese new year too?

hitbit

This is the ROI. It is a sovereign state. Its freedom was won by the bravery of very many people over very many years. The orange gits fought against independence in an effort to ensure they remained within the United Kingdom. They have continued to clearly demonstrate their desire to remain British citizens by all and any means at their disposal and will never accept integration with the South period. Perhaps the muppets here who wish to continue to "tip their caps" in suggesting we bend over and present our bared arses to the orange army might consider another option, that we rejoin the British Empire, now that would be a proper bend over which would allow the orange f*****s give us a really good kick up the arse. The muppets could jump for joy,slap themselves on their collective backs and gaze on sheepishly as the Union Jack is raised over the GPO. But this might never happen because I think the orange lot would oppose the Republic rejoining the empire because they hate us and everything about us. I still think the best option would be to phone the designers of the Berlin wall.

hitbit

DáireM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Apparantly it is also responsible for the floods in Pakistan, forest fires in Russia and B*witched.

What a twattish comment.

The Battle of the Boyne did lead to those things and belittling its impact on the island is ridiculously insensitive. All you're doing is alienating the other side of the debate which, coincidentally, is exactly what your friends in the OO have been doing for years.

Again, great contribution to the thread.

Denerick

T runner wrote: »

A large portion of this country? Speak for yourself.

The vast majority of Irish people support the idea of Irish independence.
Most of these see the 1916 rising as necessary to achieving meaningful independence. Irish people at the time certainly did judging by election results.

The stab in the back to Irish soldiers is a myth Im afraid.

A biased story in the Unionist paper of repute of the day about war widows jeering the 1916 soldiers because the pension was delayed has been blown out of all proportion.

Soldiers who fought in the war for Irish indepence or the Union with Britain were duped. All they succeded in getting was the disastrous partition of Ireland. A British solution to an Irish problem unfortunately.

There are so many non sequiters there I don't know where to start. I suspect you don't have a systematic understanding of the period. And no, I'm not speaking for myself when I say that the 1916 Rising was a stab in the back. Its much more complex for that. I also suspect you lack a capacity to emphasise with others points of view without necessarily agreeing with it. If you are representative of the intellectual fibre of Irish Republicanism, then Republicanism still has an awful long way to go.

gurramok

Denerick wrote: »

There are so many non sequiters there I don't know where to start. I suspect you don't have a systematic understanding of the period. And no, I'm not speaking for myself when I say that the 1916 Rising was a stab in the back. Its much more complex for that. I also suspect you lack a capacity to emphasise with others points of view without necessarily agreeing with it. If you are representative of the intellectual fibre of Irish Republicanism, then Republicanism still has an awful long way to go.

You do no have a systematic understanding of the period. Stab in the back stuff, you do really make that tripe up don't you.

Its funny that many Irish men(including my relatives) who served in WW1 and came home, immediately enrolled in the IRA of the time, hardly a stab in the back there.

bobbysands81

hitbit wrote: »

This is the ROI. It is a sovereign state. Its freedom was won by the bravery of very many people over very many years. The orange gits fought against independence in an effort to ensure they remained within the United Kingdom. They have continued to clearly demonstrate their desire to remain British citizens by all and any means at their disposal and will never accept integration with the South period. Perhaps the muppets here who wish to continue to "tip their caps" in suggesting we bend over and present our bared arses to the orange army might consider another option, that we rejoin the British Empire, now that would be a proper bend over which would allow the orange f*****s give us a really good kick up the arse. The muppets could jump for joy,slap themselves on their collective backs and gaze on sheepishly as the Union Jack is raised over the GPO. But this might never happen because I think the orange lot would oppose the Republic rejoining the empire because they hate us and everything about us. I still think the best option would be to phone the designers of the Berlin wall.

hitbit

The freedom of this Nation has not yet been won.

Denerick

gurramok wrote: »

You do no have a systematic understanding of the period. Stab in the back stuff, you do really make that tripe up don't you.

Its funny that many Irish men(including my relatives) who served in WW1 and came home, immediately enrolled in the IRA of the time, hardly a stab in the back there.

Oh for Christs sake. I was saying that a great many people on this island considered the Easter Rising a stab in the back. I could pawn you and complety embarass you if I wanted, but I won't. The idiocy on this thread is very nauseating.

LordSutch

hitbit wrote: »

Perhaps the muppets here who wish to continue to "tip their caps" in suggesting we bend over and present our bared arses to the orange army might consider another option, that we rejoin the British Empire, now that would be a proper bend over which would allow the orange f*****s give us a really good kick up the arse. But this might never happen because I think the orange lot would oppose the Republic rejoining the Empire because they hate us and everything about us. I still think the best option would be to phone the designers of the Berlin wall. hitbit

Whats this Empire you speak of

Maybe you mean the UK?

bobbysands81

Denerick wrote: »

Oh for Christs sake. I was saying that a great many people on this island considered the Easter Rising a stab in the back. I could pawn you and complety embarass you if I wanted, but I won't. The idiocy on this thread is very nauseating.

In what way was the Easter Rising a "stab in the back"?

LordSutch

bobbysands81 wrote: »

In what way was the Easter Rising a "stab in the back"?

Well if you actually think about the news on the streets at the time, "the Big headlines", and even the atmosphere in the country, you will know that families up & down the island were counting the cost of the Great battles on the continent, Flanders, the Somme, with tens of thousands of Irish men from North & South, Protestant & RC alike fighting the Hun & getting wiped out at an horrendous rate in the process, Irish families greiving from day to day with terrible losses against the enemy (Germany), and then in Dublin from out of nowhere comes this rising, a policeman is shot, more shooting in Dublin city centre, a few rebels running around squaring up to the Police & the army, looting on a grand scale, O'Connell St burning, people lying dead on the streers, and the Rebels then proclaiming a new Republic!!!

What were the public at large meant to think? to them it probably was a stab in the back, with their loved ones fighting the enemy abroad & then they get attacked at home too, with Dublin burned & raised to the ground! . . . . probably felt like a stab in the back to many.

bobbysands81

LordSutch wrote: »

Well if you actually think about the news on the streets at the time, "the Big headlines", and even the atmosphere in the country, you will know that families up & down the island were counting the cost of the Great battles on the continent, Flanders, the Somme, with tens of thousands of Irish men from North & South, Protestant & RC alike fighting the Hun & getting wiped out at an horrendous rate in the process, Irish families greiving from day to day with terrible losses against the enemy (Germany), and then in Dublin from out of nowhere comes this rising, a policeman is shot, more shooting in Dublin city centre, a few rebels running around squaring up to the Police & the army, looting on a grand scale, O'Connell St burning, people lying dead on the streers, and the Rebels then proclaiming a new Republic!!!

What were the public at large meant to think? to them it probably was a stab in the back, with their loved ones fighting the enemy abroad & then they get attacked at home too, with Dublin burned & raised to the ground! . . . . probably felt like a stab in the back to many.

...or a legitimate attempt at self determination to many others.

Denerick

bobbysands81 wrote: »

...or a legitimate attempt at self determination.

Please differentiate between people of varying points of view. I'm not saying that the Easter Rising was a stab in the back. I'm saying many people think so. Your opinion, quite frankly, is as marginal as the Republican icon you take as your pen name on this site.

bobbysands81

Denerick wrote: »

Your opinion, quite frankly, is as marginal as the Republican icon you take as your pen name on this site.

Thanks for that irrelevant personal snipe. Play the ball not the man my good friend.

gurramok

Denerick wrote: »

Oh for Christs sake. I was saying that a great many people on this island considered the Easter Rising a stab in the back. I could pawn you and complety embarass you if I wanted, but I won't. The idiocy on this thread is very nauseating.

Since when did you speak for the 'great many people on this island'?

Denerick

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Thanks for that irrelevant personal snipe. Play the ball not the man my good friend.

How was that personal? I was merely saying that the extreme Republicanism as displayed by both you and your namesake is a marginal view on this island. As is the glorification of quasi fascist elitist uprisings.

Denerick

gurramok wrote: »

Since when did you speak for the 'great many people on this island'?

Where did I say I speak on behalf of them? What is your purpose in this thread, if you don't mind me asking?

Scofflaw

Iomega Man wrote: »

Mods..can you sort this out NOW?
My knee jerk hatred of anyone who professes to be of the Protestant religion..WTF

The little red triangle icon is the Report Post function. Use it, don't just go "heelp heelp" on the thread like some kind of Penelope Pitstop.

moderately irritated,
Scofflaw

PeteEd

Until the OO bashing in this country stops there will be no chance of a united ireland.
A number of posters in this forum seem to me to be as bitter and bigoted as they are trying to make the Orange Order out to be!

Until the people of this island forget the ideologies of hatred towards "the other side" we are going nowhere fast.

If your goal is a truly United Ireland, the hundreds of thousands of people who feel allegiance to the OO need to feel accepted.

A Bank holiday on the 12th of July would go some way in doing this.

But judging by some of the armchair political views being banded around this thread, (and other recent similar threads), i fear that we as a people aren't as forward thinking as we like to think and the chances of getting an extra bank holiday are slim to none!
This thread will continue like many a thread before and after as a big case of This

PeteEd

bobbysands81

PeteEd wrote: »

If your goal is a truly United Ireland, the hundreds of thousands of people who feel allegiance to the OO need to feel accepted.

No they don't. A hate organisation such as the orange order should have no place in a modern democracy.

On the other hand I believe that this State should bend over backwards to welcome our unionist friends in a shared future free of sectarianism and discrimination.