McDowell calls for 12 July to be public holiday in Ireland

Wolfe Tone

oscarBravo wrote: »

Does it make it OK? Not really. Does it make it more likely? Unfortunately, yes.

The EU ruled that it was in breech of human rights yet it continued until very recently.

Northern Ireland still has a long way to go as a normal society before it can realistically expect normal policing.

I agree.

For example: the uncle of the police officer who had a bomb placed under her car refused to condemn the terrorists who planted it, instead resorting to the usual tired old rhetoric: "...while there's British occupation in Ireland there will always be opposition to that, whether you agree with it or not."

When did that happen? Just because it has been said many time it des not make it any less true.

When Northern Ireland evolves into the sort of place where people don't feel the need to make excuses for terrorist scum who have tried to blow up members of their own family, there's some chance of the policing situation being comparable to that of other countries.

Indeed. Hopefully the day will come when no one will feel that such a course of action is a good or necessary one.

Who do they fire them at?

Rioters and protesters mainly I believe. Plastic bullets should not be used at all. There are ways to deal with them without shooting.
There are some articles around the place about individual incidents.


Do you deny that there is any prejudice in the PSNI?

I, and many feel that there is, albeit to a lesser degree than in the past. It should further improve in time

oscarBravo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

When did that happen?

It was in today's paper.

Just because it has been said many time it des not make it any less true.

On the contrary, repeating it ad nauseam won't make it magically become true. Northern Ireland isn't occupied. We accepted that, once and for all, in 1998.

I agree that there will always be people who refuse to accept reality, and who are prepared to commit mass murder in order to try to force others to accept their warped world view. It amazes me that someone is prepared to make excuses for those people, when they've just attempted to murder his niece.

Do you deny that there is any prejudice in the PSNI?

Nope. There's going to be an element of anti-nationalist sentiment as a hangover from the past, in the same way as there's a hangover of violent republicanism. Some people will never learn to let go.

That said, it's also hard to let go of anti-republican sentiment when some republicans are still actively trying to murder PSNI officers, and other republicans are making excuses for them.

Wolfe Tone

Nope. There's going to be an element of anti-nationalist sentiment as a hangover from the past

Thats exactly what I was talking about, with time that will disappear.

That said, it's also hard to let go of anti-republican sentiment when some republicans are still actively trying to murder PSNI officers, and other republicans are making excuses for them.

Thats a circular argument. One which could be switched.

OhNoYouDidn't

oscarBravo wrote: »

Nope. There's going to be an element of anti-nationalist sentiment as a hangover from the past, in the same way as there's a hangover of violent republicanism. Some people will never learn to let go.
.

Or could it be that the reality on the ground is conducive to recruiting a new generation. That unfortunately the political peace has not translated into an end to loyalist attacks, although rarely lethal anymore, and elements of the PSNI are still up to the same old Taig bashing.

Some of the continuation of the struggle is ideological in bent, but some is resistance to the same perceived issues on the ground.

You can abuse these guys as being troglodytes if you want. But some of us have learnt from the failure of the Brits to crush the Provos and don't want to make the same mistakes of 40 years ago. Which was to abuse and dismiss them.

Denerick

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Or could it be that the reality on the ground is conducive to recruiting a new generation. That unfortunately the political peace has not translated into an end to loyalist attacks, although rarely lethal anymore, and elements of the PSNI are still up to the same old Taig bashing.

Some of the continuation of the struggle is ideological in bent, but some is resistance to the same perceived issues on the ground.

You can abuse these guys as being troglodytes if you want. But some of us have learnt from the failure of the Brits to crush the Provos and don't want to make the same mistakes of 40 years ago. Which was to abuse and dismiss them.

Oh come on. The only dissident groups that are still active are Republican.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

Oh come on. The only dissident groups that are still active are Republican.

Apparently the UVF are still doing the rounds of intimidation and forcing people out, under the guise of clearing up drug dealers.

Cú Giobach

oscarBravo wrote: »

Northern Ireland isn't occupied. We accepted that, once and for all, in 1998..

Just a point of fact; not 100% voted for the GFA . Therefore there are people who wouldn't accept that statement.
As I said, just stating a fact.

Denerick

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Just a point of fact; not 100% voted for the GFA . Therefore there are people who wouldn't accept that statement.
As I said, just stating a fact.

Thank you for the provision of facts. Considering there has never been a democratic poll in the history of mankind that ever achieved universal consent, it would seem to be a pretty redundant fact to establish.

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Apparently the UVF are still doing the rounds of intimidation and forcing people out, under the guise of clearing up drug dealers.

Meh. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. Who knows. But I do know that the ones who are attempting to bomb and attack the police forces are Republicans, hence the distinction between terrorists (Who will attack 'crown forces', and also pizza delivery men in a noble quest to unify the island) and total scumbags (Who will attack neighbours - such as the UVF as you allege) It remains to be seen whether dissident Republicans will morph into total scumbags, but I'll not be surprised when it happens.

OhNoYouDidn't

Denerick wrote: »

Oh come on. The only dissident groups that are still active are Republican.

Active or not, there has been an increase in attacks by loyalists over the past couple of years, including the brutal murder of a man in Colraine and the attack on his pregnant wife. It hasn't stopped enough.

danbohan

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure. Would you accept that Northern Ireland is currently facing a terrorist threat, and that - as a direct result - it's inevitable that it will have policing problems beyond those faced by a typical police force?

so that makes ok does it ? , intimadation in nationalist areas etc , maybe a shoot to kill policy like practised by their predecessors the ruc/ b specials ?, i am sure you would have made the same excuses for them .

Cú Giobach

Denerick wrote: »

Thank you for the provision of facts. Considering there has never been a democratic poll in the history of mankind that ever achieved universal consent, it would seem to be a pretty redundant fact to establish.

Well, this "redundant" fact means there are still people willing to fight/die and kill for a united Ireland. As was stated earlier there will always be a problem here as long as the north is occupied.

OhNoYouDidn't

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure. Would you accept that Northern Ireland is currently facing a terrorist threat, and that - as a direct result - it's inevitable that it will have policing problems beyond those faced by a typical police force?

But isn't the over exuberant dealing with that threat by their predecessors not one of the main reasons we are here today?

The same mistakes are being made by the same people creating the same environment 40 years on. Thats the problem.

The Provos aren't controlling the areas any more. They have abdicated it to the PSNI as part of the peace process. Now they need to step up, and so far its been a failure and out of the vacuum come the dissidents.

Denerick

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Well, this "redundant" fact means there are still people willing to fight/die and kill for a united Ireland. As was stated earlier there will always be a problem here as long as the north is occupied.

Thats not quite the point. For a start you are assuming that a majority of the 30 odd% of Northern Ireland who voted against the GFA were Nationalist. Many, if not the majority were unionist and hence this doesn't stand up.

The problem is that a small, tiny, irrelevant minority believe they are allowed to wage war in my name. Well I never asked them. In fact I specifically told them to stop. In fact I specifically voted for them to stop. Why won't they listen?

Wolfe Tone

Why won't they listen?

Because you are ignorant.

Pretty sure you and most people would fit the bill as an "enemy through ignorance".


Thats what they would say if you asked them I reckon. Not my opinion at all.

Cú Giobach

Denerick wrote: »

Thats not quite the point. For a start you are assuming that a majority of the 30 odd% of Northern Ireland who voted against the GFA were Nationalist. Many, if not the majority were unionist and hence this doesn't stand up.

The problem is that a small, tiny, irrelevant minority believe they are allowed to wage war in my name. Well I never asked them. In fact I specifically told them to stop. In fact I specifically voted for them to stop. Why won't they listen?

Believe it or not a number of nationalists voted against the GFA in the north and republic. A number of nationalists also voted for the GFA to achieve power sharing but are still willing to fight. Unfortunately things aren't as cut and dry as you seem to think.
This war has been going on for quite a long time and a simple vote isn't going to completly sort it out, we have a hell of a long way to go.
If the "irrelevant" minority have bombs and bullets and are willing to use them, I don't think they can be called Irrelevant.
Also the crux of this prob are the 2 communities in the north and the division is increasing not decreasing.

Fratton Fred

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Because you are ignorant.

Pretty sure you and most people would fit the bill as an "enemy through ignorance".

which part of Northern Ireland are you from?

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Because you are ignorant.

Pretty sure you and most people would fit the bill as an "enemy through ignorance".

Thats a bit much, don't you think? Any more of this and you'll hurt my feelings. What exactly is ignorant in saying that dissidents have absolutely no support of any kind other than a few saloon bar bigots, and that the overwhelming majority of people on this island want an end to endless cycles of violence?

Wolfe Tone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

which part of Northern Ireland are you from?

What? I was just saying what they would say if you asked them, to Denerick and myself too no doubt.


Wow Denerick sorry, was not meant to be insulting, thats what it says in the "Green Book"(or at least it claims to be it) read it today.

We have enemies through ignorance, through our own fault or default and of course the main enemy is the
establishment.

Anyway, you got the wrong end of the stick there.


Thats what I imagine they would say. I should have made that clearer. Is not what I think at all.


EDIT: I edited the post in question, sorry again.

Denerick

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Believe it or not a number of nationalists voted against the GFA in the north and republic. A number of nationalists also voted for the GFA to achieve power sharing but are still willing to fight. Unfortunately things aren't as cut and dry as you seem to think.
This war has been going on for quite a long time and a simple vote isn't going to completly sort it out, we have a hell of a long way to go.
If the "irrelevant" minority have bombs and bullets and are willing to use them, I don't think they can be called Irrelevant.
Also the crux of this prob are the 2 communities in the north and the division is increasing not decreasing.

Alas, there is the problem. So long as tiny minorities feel they have a right to subvert the people, because they believe themselves to be some way more 'virtuous' than anyone else, we'll have war on this island.

Cú Giobach

Denerick wrote: »

Alas, there is the problem. So long as tiny minorities feel they have a right to subvert the people, because they believe themselves to be some way more 'virtuous' than anyone else, we'll have war on this island.

The problem is the 2 divided communities in the north.
One of the "symptoms" of this are the "tiny minority".
We need to cure the disease not just get rid of the symptoms.

oscarBravo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You can abuse these guys as being troglodytes if you want.

I'm sure they're just misunderstood. I'm sure they've tried really, really hard to achieve change through political and diplomatic means. I'm sure they're at the very end of their tether, with their backs firmly against the wall, and that if there was any way - any way at all - of achieving their aims peacefully, they'd jump at the chance.

Yeah, right. There's one constant in the history of Irish republicanism, and that's the eagerness of a minority to spill blood to attain their goal. The size of that minority waxes and wanes, but it's always there.

What's truly disturbing to me is the larger minority which will always make excuses for them.

oscarBravo

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The problem is the 2 divided communities in the north.
One of the "symptoms" of this are the "tiny minority".
We need to cure the disease not just get rid of the symptoms.

How many car bombs will it take to effect a cure? How many dead police officers?

Wolfe Tone

oscarBravo wrote: »

How many car bombs will it take to effect a cure? How many dead police officers?

Exactly 511 :rolleyes:

There is no need for military action nowadays, and little call for it either. Even if they think that the GFA is a dead end they should give it a go anyways.

Denerick

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The problem is the 2 divided communities in the north.
One of the "symptoms" of this are the "tiny minority".
We need to cure the disease not just get rid of the symptoms.

Please stop making excuses for them. Most of them are at the stage where their own mothers would disown them, such are the scale of their gut wrenching atrocities.

oscarBravo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

There is no need for military action nowadays, and little call for it either. Even if they think that the GFA is a dead end they should give it a go anyways.

Why would they? They have a glorious tradition of republican violence to live up to.

We're talking about people who are carrying on the tradition of Omagh, here. It's not like they have any moral compass whatsoever.

junder

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm sure they're just misunderstood. I'm sure they've tried really, really hard to achieve change through political and diplomatic means. I'm sure they're at the very end of their tether, with their backs firmly against the wall, and that if there was any way - any way at all - of achieving their aims peacefully, they'd jump at the chance.

Yeah, right. There's one constant in the history of Irish republicanism, and that's the eagerness of a minority to spill blood to attain their goal. The size of that minority waxes and wanes, but it's always there.

What's truly disturbing to me is the larger minority which will always make excuses for them.

Yes and it's those of us that actully live in northern Ireland who have to live with the consequences of those. Somebody (maybe even more then one person) is going to die soon, it's not a question of if but when. maybe it will be a police men or women (or the child of said police women) maybe it will be the taxi driver forced to drive a bomb to it's intended target maybe it will be somebody just in the wrong place at the wrong time. When it does happen I have no doubt there will be people on this very forum either trying to justify it or make excuses for what happens
Minortys

Wolfe Tone

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why would they? They have a glorious tradition of republican violence to live up to.

We're talking about people who are carrying on the tradition of Omagh, here. It's not like they have any moral compass whatsoever.

Its not a case of violence for violences sake. These people actually believe that what they are doing is the best and right way to achieve what they want.

The best thing to do is to show that storount and the GFA are actually working.

Cú Giobach

Denerick wrote: »

Please stop making excuses for them. Most of them are at the stage where their own mothers would disown them, such are the scale of their gut wrenching atrocities.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, I just lived in the north long enough to know what is really going on.

oscarBravo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Its not a case of violence for violences sake. These people actually believe that what they are doing is the best and right way to achieve what they want.

That makes them psychopaths, or at best sociopaths. I'm not saying that to be provocative; it's self-evident to me that anyone that thinks blowing up innocent people is a good idea has a major screw loose.

Cú Giobach

junder wrote: »

So if it's not defeated why would celebrate it's defeat?

Cú Giobach replied;

I was waiting for that.
Now before we begin, would it be possible for you to explain what the celibrations on the 12th mean to you.

Since this thread is about the 12th and the whole argument hinges on what the 12th celebrations are actually about, your lack of an answer to my question is most informative.

Wolfe Tone

oscarBravo wrote: »

That makes them psychopaths, or at best sociopaths. I'm not saying that to be provocative; it's self-evident to me that anyone that thinks blowing up innocent people is a good idea has a major screw loose.

TBH you could probably say that about any conflict, or soldier, etc. Why did people drop bombs during WW2 for instance? They would say that they are not targeting innocent civilians. The aim isnt to blow up innocent civilians, but the "enemy" and property to damage the economy. I highly doubt they plan to go out and just kill innocents, they are not stupid, that would just turn more people against them.

Doesn't excuse it really, but it is important to see things from their point of view and try to understand rather than right them off as insane or something.

Denerick

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I'm not making excuses for anyone, I just lived in the north long enough to know what is really going on.

Thats an incredibly tired old line. I'm from just across the border and I've loads of family in the north; in Derry, Omagh and Belfast. I spend a lot of time in the north and know it well. Having lived there might give you a special insight, but not much.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

Thats an incredibly tired old line. I'm from just across the border and I've loads of family in the north; in Derry, Omagh and Belfast. I spend a lot of time in the north and know it well. Having lived there might give you a special insight, but not much.

Im in in a similar position myself actually.

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

TBH you could probably say that about any conflict, or soldier, etc. Why did people drop bombs during WW2 for instance? They would say that they are not targeting innocent civilians. The aim isnt to blow up innocent civilians, but the "enemy" and property to damage the economy. I highly doubt they plan to go out and just kill innocents, they are not stupid, that would just turn more people against them.

Doesn't excuse it really, but it is important to see things from their point of view and try to understand rather than right them off as insane or something.

People dropped bombs in WWII because the world literally had a screw loose for 6 years.

Republican dissidents can't blame any special atmosphere of chaos. If anything they are doing their very best to create that very special atmosphere of chaos.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

People dropped bombs in WWII because the world literally had a screw loose for 6 years.

Republican dissidents can't blame any special atmosphere of chaos. If anything they are doing their very best to create that very special atmosphere of chaos.

Ah Denerick these guys see themselves as an army. It has been a tatic for god knows how long to destroy infrastructure. They see themselves as simply employing that tactic.

Cú Giobach

Denerick wrote: »

Thats an incredibly tired old line. I'm from just across the border and I've loads of family in the north; in Derry, Omagh and Belfast. I spend a lot of time in the north and know it well. Having lived there might give you a special insight, but not much.

The vast majority of people in the republic don't have the slightest clue about the real situation in the north. To understand it properly you have to live there. If you know the north and the republic, then you must also be aware of this.
I can state that quite confidently and am sure anyone who actually lives there will back me up on that whether they are catholic/protestant/nationalist or unionist.

Denerick

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The vast majority of people in the republic don't have the slightest clue about the real situation in the north. To understand it properly you have to live there. If you know the north and the republic, then you must also be aware of this.
I can state that quite confidently and am sure anyone who actually lives there will back me up on that whether they are catholic/protestant/nationalist or unionist.

I don't dispute the divisions between Catholics and Protestants (Though I've noticed this changing recently - for example I was surprised to find out my much younger cousins play football with a load of protestant lads from the same village every saturday) I do dispute the scale of the divisions and how far they justify the dissidents actions. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of people from both groups despise them and what they are trying to do.

OhNoYouDidn't

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why would they? They have a glorious tradition of republican violence to live up to.

We're talking about people who are carrying on the tradition of Omagh, here. It's not like they have any moral compass whatsoever.

While part of the issue is Republican dogma and tradition, you are deliberately ignoring the point that there is still higher unemployment amongst people form a nationalist background, the cops still have a sectarian rump, the British army is still there, loyalists are still attacking people. For too many the war isn't over as their lives have not changed since the GFA.

Thats a failure of the state, the political class, the PSNI, the Provos and assorted other reasons, but the idea that this is violence for the sake of it was wrong in the late 60's and its wrong now. You need to be a great deal more subtle in your analysis

Cú Giobach

Denerick wrote: »

I don't dispute the divisions between Catholics and Protestants (Though I've noticed this changing recently - for example I was surprised to find out my much younger cousins play football with a load of protestant lads from the same village every saturday).

That made me smile. It's nice to hear things like that. lets hope for much much more of that kind of thing. I'll leave it now on that positive note.
Thanks folks for an enjoyable evenings discussion, l'm off to bed now, and probabally wont pick up this thread again, I don't really enjoy discussing these matters like this.
Slán.

Iwasfrozen

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

While part of the issue is Republican dogma and tradition, you are deliberately ignoring the point that there is still higher unemployment amongst people form a nationalist background, the cops still have a sectarian rump, the British army is still there, loyalists are still attacking people. For too many the war isn't over as their lives have not changed since the GFA.

1. It is not the states fault if nationalists are less likely to be unemployed. They may not be as well educated. Or may be less likely to seek work.
2. The PSNI has a fifty-fifty recruitment policy in place. To help ease the sectarian problem.
3. The British army have a right to be there, why shouldn't they?
4. Nationalists are also attacking people.

Wolfe Tone

The British army have a right to be there, why shouldn't they?

Do we really need to go into this?

junder

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Since this thread is about the 12th and the whole argument hinges on what the 12th celebrations are actually about, your lack of an answer to my question is most informative.

Nothing i would say would answer your question since I would not give you the answer you want. The 12th of July celebrates the battle of the boyne were one European king defeated another it is not about Protestantism defeating Catholicism since such an event never happenef

junder

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Do we really need to go into this?

The army is garrisoned Here just like any other part if the uk and the only time the British army is on the streets is when it's defusing bombs left by dissident republicans

Fuhrer

junder wrote: »

The army is garrisoned Here just like any other part if the uk and the only time the British army is on the streets is when it's defusing bombs left by dissident republicans

Really, thats the only time they're on the streets?

OhNoYouDidn't

junder wrote: »

The army is garrisoned Here just like any other part if the uk and the only time the British army is on the streets is when it's defusing bombs left by dissident republicans

But its not like any other part of the UK, is it....

junder

Fuhrer wrote: »

Really, thats the only time they're on the streets?

Yes it is, public order is in the hands ofbthf psni.

Wolfe Tone

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Army-used-in-Creggan-raid.6239576.jp

junder

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Army-used-in-Creggan-raid.6239576.jp

A specialist British army unit took part in a raid on a flat in the Creggan area of Derry last week, the 'Journal' has learned.


The raid took place on Wednesday at a flat in High Park where a member of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement (32CSM) was staying.

It is believed to be the first time that British military personnel have been involved in a house search in DerryADVERTISEMENT

in recent years.

The search on the flat lasted for several hours and those involved wore white overalls and face masks. The PSNI said the search was part of an "ongoing investigation into criminal activity".

A document given to the 32 CSM member by the PSNI during the search lists who was present during the search operation and includes the names of three British soldiers, a sergeant, lance corporal, and a sapper, who are described as being members of a "military search troop", based at Aldergrove.

The document, which the 'Journal' has seen, also lists PSNI officers and crime scene investigators and an individual described with the acronym, "MCFA".

A spokesperson for the British Army said he could not comment on whether troops took part in last week's raid but added that the PSNI can request "specialist" assistance."It is for the police to request specialist support. They would request specific capacity and we have that resource that they can call upon. That is the norm across the UK," the spokesperson explained.

The British army's 38-year mission in the North, 'Operation Banner', ended in July 2007 and troops, with the exception of bomb disposal experts, are no longer seen on the streets.

The 32CSM in Derry said they had previously suspected that undercover British army units were operating in republican areas. A spokesperson for the group said; "This confirms what republicans knew already; that the British army are involved in undercover operations in Derry. We now have documented proof of that.

"Here we have British soldiers harassing people and raiding houses in Creggan, just as they did in the 70s, 80s, and 90s."

A spokesperson for the PSNI said she could not comment on "operational matters.

British soldiers regularly raided homes in Creggan and other nationalist areas of Derry during the Troubles.

murphaph

Lol "undercover British army" after handing these clowns an official document listing the Army as being amongst the search unit. Hardly undercover is it. I presume they were there in case bombs were found.