How to fix the Final Fantasy series

CodeMonkey

NeoKubrick might be a little pedantic here with Cyzrane's use of the word "stagnate" to describe FF but he is essentially correct. The newer FF games are not stagnate, they are just not to everyone's tastes because it's actually trying out new things that didn't work as well as the developers wanted. The fix as listed by Cyzrane is just telling square to remake the older games in the series.

Lahinchians

Wow guys that was some read :eek:

In my opinion, to reboot the series they need to employ some new creative writers. The stories in the last few games I've played haven't given me that same obsession like need to play through the game, and because of this I haven't finished them. The only way i could get through FF10 was through sheer will which I have simply lost now as I can't push myself to finish FF12. If they aren't going to do this then maybe they could borrow elements from an already successful fantasy novel.

I would totally love to see the world map reintroduced as the sense of freedom it gave was incredible, and as Fo Real said in the original post, they have gotten very linear. I'm not sure if they're doing this in an attempt to become more realistic, or whether they've seen the huge popularity of the MMORPG genre and are jumping on board whole heartedly and in the process creating an offline MMORPG. Whichever it is that they want to head for they need to make their minds up a bit.

The battle system I'd say need some kind of step back. I havn't played FF13 so can't comment in depth on it, but from what I've seen of it it's unnecessarily complicated. I think a step backwards would be the best option here, look at the older games with good battle systems, and even at other developers battle systems. They, in my opinion, should simplify and bring us back the fun for even the smallest battle. That sense of achievement and progress you get from beating some of the tougher monsters has been lost as the series has progressed. Not bosses now, they will allways give you that sense of achivement. Unless they're the final boss in FF10. Yu Yevon was shocking as a final boss.

About the Final Fantasy series stagnating, I don't really agree with that. I feel it is making progress, albeit in the wrong direction. I feel that Square have really given the middle finger to all the old fanbase and have instead decided to grab a new audience. In their process of doing this they've seen that a huge number of people have been sucked into the MMO market and so are now releasing offline MMORPGs with the odd proper MMORPG ala. FF11 n the upcomming FF14.

I havn't bought FF13 and I probably won't, and I do have to agree with Cyzrane that there really is no hope for final fantasy any more. Unless they have a huge restructuring and major rehash of their ideas and implementation of those ideas, we all may as well confine final fastasy to the bin where it can stay for the foreseeable future.

Now back to the debate on the definition of stagnate

Fo Real

The developers have made the game in a linear fashion so as not to break the pretence that you are watching an interactive movie. Metal Gear Solid 2 was the first of these movie-games where you spend just as much time watching it as you do playing. FFXIII took it to ridiculous levels with a cut-scene every 20 seconds. Unfortunately I see these type of games cropping up more often as developers pander more and more to the casual gamer.

Cut-scenes used to be a treat, used for game endings or to emphasize a major turning point in a game. Now they are a cancer suffocating gameplay.

Lahinchians

Fo Real wrote: »

The developers have made the game in a linear fashion so as not to break the pretence that you are watching an interactive movie. Metal Gear Solid 2 was the first of these movie-games where you spend just as much time watching it as you do playing. FFXIII took it to ridiculous levels with a cut-scene every 20 seconds. Unfortunately I see these type of games cropping up more often as developers pander more and more to the casual gamer.

Cut-scenes used to be a treat, used for game endings or to emphasize a major turning point in a game. Now they are a cancer suffocating gameplay.

I'm not sure if linearity in level design is supposed to give the impression of an interactive movie. I don't get that from it anyway.

I do agree about cut-scenes though, I think a cut-scene here and there at pivotal moments in the story are perfect, not every 20 seconds as you said in FF13. (i get that that's an exaggeration btw unless it's not in which case SE should stop making games)

Retr0gamer

I'm not sure they should start making movies either. Even stuff like FFVII in film or TV form would get rightfully laughed at for being poor. Too many cutscenes can really kill a game like MGS2 and MGS4 (some awful writing and storydidn't help them either). They really need to be reigned back, it's an interactive game afterall! MGS3 was so beloved because of the lack of useless exposition and the whole game flowed so much better.

Lemegeton

i dont believe the series can be saved under the current FF team and Square Enix. our beloved FF games were made by squaresoft which was a very different company from what he have today. as much as i love the series i doubt it will ever reach the highs of the first 9 games ever again and i agree with all your suggestions i just dont see it happening under square enix

Aurongroove

the thing the new final fantasies are missing is soul.

I don't mean to sound like a wack-job, but the reason people we're disappointed with FFXII and XIII wasn't because of anything to do with systems, character development, or mistakes, equipment etc, it was the lack of soul.

VII, VIII & IX were rife with mistakes, but the beautiful polish which glided over the cracks, was the not the story, no, (please, the stories were all **** with maybe the exception of VII).
it was the characters, their personalities, or rather the fact they had personalities, and if by accident one of two people as the series went on didnt have personalities, then they were the ones with no personality (Vincent, Edea, Beatrix) .

my top 10 personalities FFXII
Balthier
Fran
Cid
the old dude the judge kills
Vayne's younger brother
Judge Drace (for some reason, I liked her go get 'em attitude)
cant remember anyone else...

Top 10 personalities if FFXIII
Bhakti
Sazh
Lebreau
can't remember anyone else. Snow's mum maybe...


as you can see, It's a complete joke.

denballs

Fo Real wrote: »

To get the Final Fantasy series back on track, upcoming games will need to include the following elements:

• Anime style characters: FF 1-6 used anime sprites to represent the characters as the developers were limited by the technology available. Then FF7 came along with beautiful (albeit blocky) 3D anime characters. Big heads, big eyes and big swords. Then for some reason Square decided to use more "realistic" human characters for FF8 and every sequel since (except for FF9 which reverted to classic FF characters types). We love the colourful and cartoonish anime style! Bring 'em back!
• No it should be as realistic as possible its rpg not south park.

• World map: A fully 3D world map which can be explored at the player's leisure. This has been lacking from FF10 onwards, instead being replaced with linear tunnels. I will never forget the awe I felt riding the chocobo around the 3D world map on FF6 on the SNES. Amazing!
• perhaps some sort of compromise or choice in settings for this

• Non-playable characters: One element which makes classic RPGs so great are the NPCs. You would chat to the folk around town who would occasionally give clues as to where a secret item could be found or what to do next if you were lost. Some would just have a witty line to say. Make sure not to over-do it though. I remember one of the first cities in FF12 had way to many NPCs clogging up the streets with nothing of interest at all to say.
• with good real voices and intersting characters this is good

• Levelling up: I want my character to increase from level 1 to 2, then to 3 etc. getting stronger in various abilites as they grow. Scrap that bloddy crystarium system of FF13.
• yes this is the main reason i like ff......constant progress achievment
  

• Battle-system: battles should be turn-based. The live action battles of FF12 were an epic fail. Characters should each be ble to use magic and summons as well as weapon attacks. FF13 paradigm system was frustratingly bad. The game played itself with little player input.
• yes old way is best.....

Probrem officer?

I THINK THEY SHOULD JUST RE MAKE 1-9 FOR THE PS3 AND XBOX TAKING ADVANTAGE OF MODERN TECHNOLOGY.....WITH SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT STORYLINES.....MAYBE A WHAT IF THIS DIDNT HAPPEN AND CLOUD TOOK A DIFFERENT PATH TROUGH THE STORY.......same characters and game mechanics but new and interesting story/content and modern graphics/sound etc.......and online story play were say one person is cloud and another baron etc making up a team and that team can schedle when to play and if a person isnt on then the cpu takes their place

Retr0gamer

I think Matsuno deserves another shot at the FF series. He's brought out consistently brilliant games with excellent storylines with great universes and political intrigue. I've heard on a podcast FFXII was maybe the first third and final 5% of Matsuno's original vision for the story. Pity he had that break down.

pablomakaveli

Aurongroove wrote: »

the thing the new final fantasies are missing is soul.

I don't mean to sound like a wack-job, but the reason people we're disappointed with FFXII and XIII wasn't because of anything to do with systems, character development, or mistakes, equipment etc, it was the lack of soul.

VII, VIII & IX were rife with mistakes, but the beautiful polish which glided over the cracks, was the not the story, no, (please, the stories were all **** with maybe the exception of VII).
it was the characters, their personalities, or rather the fact they had personalities, and if by accident one of two people as the series went on didnt have personalities, then they were the ones with no personality (Vincent, Edea, Beatrix) .

my top 10 personalities FFXII
Balthier
Fran
Cid
the old dude the judge kills
Vayne's younger brother
Judge Drace (for some reason, I liked her go get 'em attitude)
cant remember anyone else...

Top 10 personalities if FFXIII
Bhakti
Sazh
Lebreau
can't remember anyone else. Snow's mum maybe...


as you can see, It's a complete joke.

It definitely felt like FF12 and 13 were lacking that spark that the older FF games had. A lot of the characters that were in those games just don't stand out like the old characters.

Vaan from FF12 just seemed like another version of Tidus from FF10 with Hope from FF 13 just a younger version of Vaan. The other characters in FF12 & 13 (particularily 13) are'nt memorable or distinct. I suppose the design of the current FF characters makes them all look too similiar as well.

Compare that to the characters from the old FF games who always looked distinct and were just as distinct in personality as well. These were the type of characters a player would be able to grow fond of while it's hard to give a crap about the current characters and their storylines.

Mario007

I think people are missing the basic most important thing here with regard to FF. Final Fantasy is a series of standalone titles that each offer different gameplay, graphics, music, plot, premise, characters and lore.
That is why any talk of the FF series stagnating is quite silly. If anything FF is progressing and exploring new ways, gameplay and worlds. I mean when FF 1 came out those 20 years ago probably no one could have even dreamt that there will an FF that will be linear and focus on character development and struggles rather than on free roaming and saving the world. Yet here we are.
Personally this is what I love about the series. Every title is different and offers something new. You can't actually come to an FF game comparing it with previous titles, because there are so many differences between each title.
This is actually shown by the people here stating that FF should go back to its 'roots'. This, in my opinion, is ridiculous. These people basically liked a few FF games and thus assume that all FF games are the same and should be made the same, reliving what they've already played again and again.

And with regards to the FF13 hate, that happens with just about every FF game. When FF6 came out people complained that it was too futuristic, with FF4 people complained about too much concentration on character development as opposed to the previous 3 titles, when FF8 came out people hated the new junction system, when FF9 was out people complained about going back to the roots of the series, FF10 was too linear, FF12 too open worlded and FF 13 yet again too linear. But this complaining is only natural as it always concerned people hating something new in the series, thinking that the series should just copy everything from the previous game.

denballs

the difference between modern and original style characters is that you pretty much made up who they were and why you liked them yourself in the old games ...........we never got much info on who the characters were before the game starts ...with the exception of a few short video clips in vii and vi that i can remember of cloud and edgar.........if you thought somone was noble or strong because that was the way you played the character then they were......you filled in the gaps.........in the modern games you have to follow a story that fills in the pieces of exactly who the characters are and it can show things that show he/she is not the character you want them to be and this sort of ruins the RPG part of the game........if in future games they want to tell more of the story of a character then they should leave it up to the player to make that story........like how they let you change the characters name........somone should ask things like what is your occupation and with characters whos occupation isnt set out {like we all know cloud was no fisherman} you should have say 10 choices such as assassin-thief-cook-pirate-cobbler...........and by giving this information you could create a profile viewable in menu {maybe in status}......and this could affect your abilities such as if there was equipmeant damage then somone who was a metal worker could repair items more cheaply.......and an assassin could gain more agility or somthing every lv up..........this wouldnt be like in FFI with the class selection were there are red black and white mages and warriors and thieves........it would be different as there could be 100,s of different questions that random people could ask you that would build up characters information and skills.......

Lahinchians

denballs wrote: »

the difference between modern and original style characters is that you pretty much made up who they were and why you liked them yourself in the old games ...........we never got much info on who the characters were before the game starts ...with the exception of a few short video clips in vii and vi that i can remember of cloud and edgar.........if you thought somone was noble or strong because that was the way you played the character then they were......you filled in the gaps.........in the modern games you have to follow a story that fills in the pieces of exactly who the characters are and it can show things that show he/she is not the character you want them to be and this sort of ruins the RPG part of the game........if in future games they want to tell more of the story of a character then they should leave it up to the player to make that story........like how they let you change the characters name........somone should ask things like what is your occupation and with characters whos occupation isnt set out {like we all know cloud was no fisherman} you should have say 10 choices such as assassin-thief-cook-pirate-cobbler...........and by giving this information you could create a profile viewable in menu {maybe in status}......and this could affect your abilities such as if there was equipmeant damage then somone who was a metal worker could repair items more cheaply.......and an assassin could gain more agility or somthing every lv up..........this wouldnt be like in FFI with the class selection were there are red black and white mages and warriors and thieves........it would be different as there could be 100,s of different questions that random people could ask you that would build up characters information and skills.......

That's a great idea, you should contact SE

CodeMonkey

denballs, maybe you should try out the FF mmorpgs.

seraphimvc

the idea of fixing up the FF series under this Square enix hurts me head - it is just simply impossible with the company management going on now in square enix. DQ series(the most conservative/traditional jrpg) on the other hand actually has showed it has more evolve potential - judging by their DQ9.

the problem of the FF series since X is that they really need to stop treating FF as a sole product. i know what i said probably is laughable but really tho, for those of us who truly love FF and proud of ourselves as FF lovers (for me are FF4-X), old FFs are something more than a general consumer product.

for example,Nobuo's music. i was playing Lost Odysey the other day and i realised how beautifully the music blend in with the story and scenes - Nobuo actually play and design the music specically for the scenes in game, eg the theme song fades away and follwed by the scene fades.

RPG is about getting the player immersed into the game, involved player to the story - how did the old FFs did that?? and how they did them so well. None of the old FFs is flawless or perfect, but really they are some well done works by the team behind.there are laugh and tears with every old FFs - that i was actually touched by the game. even for the bad one, like everytime when i think back of ff8's story i get a headache. but hey,guess what,i replay FF8 for at least 3 times :pac: ff12 and ff13?only once.

ff12 was a half-product(judging by its development drama),i like some of it,dislike some of it. i played more than 120hours i think,gave up on the last Yazmat mission.Fran,Basch and Baltheir surely are the main reasons to keep me going.

ff13,god,i hate it.(again,Snow,Hope,Vanille MUST die!!!) well,i can go easy on Vanille if we get a proper lesbo ending for her and the (awful) australian accent girl :pac: total play time? 60hours.such. a. shame.

old FFs feel like a big epic story book, i am not sure if it was Sakagushi who made that happen, i just feel like the design team leader managed to pull the team together and design the game/story like it is written by one person. the flow of the story may not be perfect all the time, but it works. i can remember too many unforgetable moments from ff4 - X. new FF? FF12 - capital city, mines area,a few summons. ff13 - only annoying characters, plus the lesbo thingy:pac:.

feel like a rant now rather than 'how to fix FF' lol

ye,the new FFs are just lacking real FF soul. maybe it is because of the high gaming development budget nowadays screw up the design team. maybe it is really because of the lack of heart of the design team. maybe it is because Sakagushi and Nobuo werent there anymore.

but one thing i am sure tho - i need to get over with my once beloved FF series. My FF is dead about 10years along with FFX.

BigBenRoeth

One thing needs to be done with FF-bring it back to the type of gameplay from final fantasy 1-7.

Aurongroove

I also think there's a lot to be said about "reading" a story instead of watching one.

Reading leaves an entire sense (the visual) up to your own imagination, and as any decent story writer knows, the more the reader imagines the better the story gets. everything you're directly presented will need to be pristinely good to be a match for the human imagination.

with voices, unless they're PERFECT, graphics too: we all knew that with the older games when people are angry they don't actually turn red and leap, the character "actions" were vagues visual clues as to what's going on, and we would read their words and apply the emotive cue "angry" and smile at the little person we know know to be angry.

Now characters are speaking clearly, and moving precise facial muscles, the imagination has to do nothing, and instead we watch "OK" voice actors speak through "nearly there" facial expressions.

in 8/16bit it was expected things were a dodgy representation of what was going on, we read the lines, saw the gigantic question mark or exclamation mark over their heads, and we joined the dots ourselves; in pristine high quality imagination, no less. now we're fed "graphic" versions; low quality by comparison and incompatible to our own inbuilt sound and graphic engines.

its' the same with how a charming musical box or midi file can make a person smile, where as a "nearly great" real world symphony, can sound heartless and crap

carbonkid

Aurongroove wrote: »

Now characters are speaking clearly, and moving precise facial muscles, the imagination has to do nothing, and instead we watch "OK" voice actors speak through "nearly there" facial expressions.

Same idea was going through my head, cause you dont use your own imagination anymore you also dont feel as part of the story, more of an outsider looking in. This might be what someone else was saying earlier i think about there not been any spirit to the new games. Personally i'd love it if Hironobu Sakaguchi and Hiroyuki Ito jumped back in for a final game like they did with FFIX.

Although saying that FFX was kickass and had great graphics lol. I dont think there is any saving FF because most of the great creators that made FF great are all gone.

PJTierney

BigBenRoeth wrote: »

One thing needs to be done with FF-bring it back to the type of gameplay from final fantasy 1-7.

I'd like to see an FF6 HD remake actually, but in terms of gameplay FFX pretty much nailed it.

Lantus

It's hard to believe that the entire FF franchise was made as a last ditch effort by a company dying on it's a**e.

Anyway, I've been thinking on this recently and I think one of the biggest problems is that they have tried to keep up graphically with other games and ditch the written word in game text speach bubbles. This has several major problems with it.

Even on todays consoles there's a limitation as to how much you can store. Also, to get anywhere near the amount of readable text say in FF6, 7 or 8 as speach you'd need a stupendious budget, more discs and an army of voice extra's just to get you some nice npc content.

By trying to keep up with this graphical pressure to perform they have shot themselves in the foot in many ways as they have had to dilute what they do in terms of story and just that overall feel.

Take the most emotional FF game ever made in most people's opinion (FFVII) which didn't have a single spoken work in it. STill made thousands of people laugh, feel angry, sad and even cry....

So yes, they need to put the halts on this graphical showboating and take a few steps back so that the story content always takes first place. I would even say get rid of the spoken word and go back to written text only. Make huge adventures with leveling up, collectibles, exploration with maps and a sense of purpose.

One of the things that made FFXIII so bad was that it was a such a lonley experience. There were almost no NPC's anywhere and almost none you could interact with. gran pulse was empty (easy to dev I suppose.) most of coccon was non interactive as well. it was souless.

Come on SE, you can do this and you can still make a profit!

The FF series has been in dire trouble since 12 with 10 being the last (and actually very good outing.) as 14 approaches we have a very large company riding it's reputation in the belief it can do no wrong. But when you turn your back on the thousands of people that put you where are today you start down a very dangerous road, one you may not survive.

Retr0gamer

People only expect the best graphics from a new FF game so square had to put a lot of effort into their new engine. It's what took so much of the development time. Hopefully with the new engine subsequent games will be easier to make. Still Square could do well to take a look at the shin megami tensei series series which has been making games far better than the FF series for a fraction of the budget.

Lantus

Retr0gamer wrote: »

People only expect the best graphics from a new FF game so square had to put a lot of effort into their new engine. It's what took so much of the development time. Hopefully with the new engine subsequent games will be easier to make. Still Square could do well to take a look at the shin megami tensei series series which has been making games far better than the FF series for a fraction of the budget.

SInce the radical graphical changes in 7 there has been a change of direction towards a more graphically centered game, but this isn't the same as wanting only a nice to look at but empty shell of a game.

Based on the last outings I don't want a graphical masterpiece if it means I play 50 to 100 hours of soulless and often boring/annoying story.

The core of what made FF the series it is has been lost off in the process to make it look better. I wont buy another FF again unless they return to the game's heart and soul.

Memnoch

Lantus wrote: »

SInce the radical graphical changes in 7 there has been a change of direction towards a more graphically centered game, but this isn't the same as wanting only a nice to look at but empty shell of a game.

Based on the last outings I don't want a graphical masterpiece if it means I play 50 to 100 hours of soulless and often boring/annoying story.

The core of what made FF the series it is has been lost off in the process to make it look better. I wont buy another FF again unless they return to the game's heart and soul.

Unfortunately, Squenix don't care about you or me or any of us original fans. As long as they can market successfully to the latest generation of kids that play a game for 10 hours before trading it in, they will be happy enough.

And the games review industry helps no end with it's cowardice.

13 got 8s from so many big name reviewers. I was on the fence about it till then. If the reviews had been more honest, I might have skipped it altogether. I'm going to be even more sceptical next time around.

Fo Real

Memnoch wrote: »

Unfortunately, Squenix don't care about you or me or any of us original fans. As long as they can market successfully to the latest generation of kids that play a game for 10 hours before trading it in, they will be happy enough.

And the games review industry helps no end with it's cowardice.

13 got 8s from so many big name reviewers. I was on the fence about it till then. If the reviews had been more honest, I might have skipped it altogether. I'm going to be even more sceptical next time around.

Wow, you still buy games magazines? They are ridiculously overpriced and most are marketed towards children (Edge and gamesTM are notable exceptions). I'm also suspicious as to how so many shít games get good reviews or how the annual FIFA sequel always makes the front cover. Brown envelopes are being passed around, I'd hazard a guess.

I yearn for the days of PlayStation Power magazine back in the 90's. It was the first gamer's lad's mag that catered for the casual gamer yet provided the professional, high standard journalism of a geekier title. I remember waiting in anticipation each month for the new issue when we were drip-fed info of the upcoming FFVIII, a screenshot here, a rumour there. This was in the days before widespread internet usage so magazines were our primary source for gaming news!

I'd never trust a review from the likes of GamesMaster where the writers copy and paste their review from the box and give a mark out of ten proportional to the cheque they received from the developers.

Retr0gamer

Playstation Power was fairly poor if I remember correctly. Last great videogames magazine was Arcade for me and before that there really wasn't anything that could match the excellent future publiching magazines from the 8, 16 and early 32 bit era. Retrogamer is an awesome mag but you won't be getting new videogame reviews in it! I'd gladly buy and read a good quality videogames magazine if the content was good in it but they are all so poor nowadays. Edge is up it's own arse and it's reviews can't be trusted although it's articles can be great and Games TM has gone downhill badly since it decided it wanted to be Edge lite.

Fo Real

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Games TM has gone downhill badly since it decided it wanted to be Edge lite.

Sadly this is true. I had high expectations for the magazine when it was first published and bought issues 1-14, expecting to become a collector. I especially loved the way it paid homage to retro games, something that previous mags never really focused on.

However, I stopped buying it because
(i) You'd be surprised how little change you'd get out of a tenner.
(ii) It was becoming more like the "other" mags with each issue.

Any reason why games magazines are so fcuking expensive in this country? Glossy celeb magazines go for €2 and their production cost are quite high I'd imagine, having to pay big bucks for a single pic.

Retr0gamer

I think that the FF series can be easily saved though. It's not like it's entire genre has gone out of fashion or it's gameplay is archaic in this day and age. The FF series has always constantly innovated with each iteration being drastically different from the ones before with only FF9 being a homage to older games but even then it had it's own innovations. The producers of FF15can try whatever they like so there's a lot of hope for the series.

Lantus

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I think that the FF series can be easily saved though. It's not like it's entire genre has gone out of fashion or it's gameplay is archaic in this day and age. The FF series has always constantly innovated with each iteration being drastically different from the ones before with only FF9 being a homage to older games but even then it had it's own innovations. The producers of FF15can try whatever they like so there's a lot of hope for the series.

agreed it could be saved and I'm really hoping it is. could 15 be the saviour? and despite my last post I probably would buy it to find out.

A large scale FF game is always going to appeal to a certain type of player, in getting the new blood into the series you'll get one chance and if you give the impression of bordem like often the case of people playing just the first tedious 10 hours of 13 and then stopping never to play again it will be a gamble gone badly wrong.

games like this require such a massive investment in time they wont ever be given a second chance by all the folks who got badly burned by 13 and there are fewer to replace them in an ever competative market.

Memnoch

I don't buy games magazines but I do check out online reviews when I'm looking to buy a game. And while a couple of websites did give FF13 a poor score most gave it 8s. And there seemed to be a consensus that the handful of poor reviews were due to the modern reviewer not enjoying turn based, linear games.

Ofc from a PC Rpg player's point of few FF has ALWAYS been too linear, so I didn't really mind that too much. I just didn't realise that FF13 was not just linear, it was a frigging tunnel.

daredevilfan

simple way,
Remake ff VII for the ps3 like they did for the tech demo on the launch of the console and then release VIII and reignite peoples interest on why we love the games so much and stick to the original formula for future titles