List of Transposers/Relays upgraded to DTT?

lucernarian

I said that Three Rock and Cairn Hill will not experience significant power increases, and that I suspect Clermont Carn will have a power increase of 6dB. I see I didn't explicitly mention Clermont Carn in one sentence but I should have as I was only talking about CC when analogue switch-off happens, as one of your points was primarily based on that transmitter's ERP increase. The two statements aren't mutually exclusive. My earlier points and discussion was about the 4 main sites which variously "cover" Drogheda. I'm merely going on what RTENL themselves have told me when I say there will not be significant ERP increases on those sites except CC.

I have to say though, putting a word in bold doesn't make it more accurate or as a justification. I'm only looking to see if the facts stand up or not and letter font won't change that.

I know too well unfortunately that many places need an outdoor aerial and that RTENL have listed 51 sites for DTT and that Drogheda was one of 2 or 3 others (Skerries and some other one IIRC) which were planned and tendered for,only a year ago mind, and which subsequently were dropped for inconclusive reasons.

My conclusion remains that Clermont Carn will not adequately cover all of Drogheda and this is borne out by RTENL's previous intentions for a relay there, my own experience, RTENL's own coverage map and (in my opinion/RTENL's expectation) likely ERPs from the 4 UHF main transmitters. Though if RTENL's own coverage map from the aforementioned frequency planners and techs doesn't convince you then nothing will.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If it is €1.5m for 6 muxes worth then 2 muxes worth will cost maybe €500-700k.

Saorview/Saorsat has nothing to do with the 4 commercial muxes, they will be the responsibility of the commercial multiplex operator. The pay DTT process had ended when Conor Hayes made his presentation to the Dáil committee last July.

The €1.5 million applies to the RTÉ services carried with costs to RTÉ reducing as other channels come onboard.

Mr. Conor Hayes: ...
It will cost us approximately €1.5 million per year. We can manage it. As other channels come on board, part of the cost will be defrayed.

Sponge Bob

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I Drogheda was one of 2 or 3 others (Skerries and some other one IIRC)

Navan was the other one of note.

Having said all that they were conceived at a time when Kippure/3Rock were supposed to be an SFN and if that SFN plan was abandoned then timing issues were not important any more.

Other transmitters were abandoned or moved as well for perfectly sound reasons like Loughrea ( Maghera mast was lifted instead) and Galway ...went to Tonabrocky up on a height not on RTE HQ down in the city itself.

But I do think that Drogheda will be the largest town in Ireland with potential reception issues....except that we will not know for sure for 2 years. It will be the largest town in Ireland where rabbits ears won't work ...possibly along with Swords.

Every other similarly sized town has a DTT TX nearby, Galway , Cork ( 2), Dublin, Waterford, Limerick , Clonmel , Sligo , Dundalk, Letterkenny, Tralee (2), Ennis, Naas etc . Some are very powerful if not nearby, eg Truskmore<>Sligo and Kippure <> Naas.

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

The €1.5 million applies to the RTÉ services carried with costs to RTÉ reducing as other channels come onboard.

So €1.5m is RTE Saorsat costs ( minus incoming TG4 and TV3/E3 contributions) Cush ???

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

So €1.5m is RTE Saorsat costs ( minus incoming TG4 and TV3/E3 contributions) Cush ???

I'd guess it includes TG4 as a PSB, will TV3/3e pay for 2% Saorsat coverage?

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

will TV3/3e pay for 2% Saorsat coverage?

Depends on how it is 'bundled' doesn't it. :cool: Tell Mcredmond it is just like the most expensive line rental in the world which was his invention in eircom. Ya just gotta pay it.

TV3 don't even pay for what can correctly be described as coffee in their own offices.

lucernarian

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Navan was the other one of note.

Having said all that they were conceived at a time when Kippure/3Rock were supposed to be an SFN and if that SFN plan was abandoned then timing issues were not important any more.

Other transmitters were abandoned or moved as well for perfectly sound reasons like Loughrea ( Maghera mast was lifted instead) and Galway ...went to Tonabrocky up on a height not on RTE HQ down in the city itself.

But I do think that Drogheda will be the largest town in Ireland with potential reception issues....except that we will not know for sure for 2 years. It will be the largest town in Ireland where rabbits ears won't work ...possibly along with Swords.

Every other similarly sized town has a DTT TX nearby, Galway , Cork ( 2), Dublin, Waterford, Limerick , Clonmel , Sligo , Dundalk, Letterkenny, Tralee (2), Ennis, Naas etc . Some are very powerful if not nearby, eg Truskmore<>Sligo and Kippure <> Naas.

Yes, parts of Swords will be a little tricky particularly along the valley running through Swords. Having said that, FM coverage has always been decent throughout Swords for me.

Here's the post with some of the initial relay/greenfield sites RTÉ intended to equip for DTT: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63483757&postcount=2

Tipperary town was also left out at the last minute. I don't know the area at all but looking at the map, Mullaghanish, Mt. Leinster, Clonmel, Woodcock Hill in particular and possibly Kilduff seem to offer coverage depending on what window you'd look out or what wall an aerial was to be mounted on:) The Saorview map looks okay but it looks like the whole town is borderline on the map, the bits out of coverage are not in worse terrain than those bits that are. When the Mt. Leinster mast replacement is completed it could make a crucial difference. No Preseli to interfere either!

Would timing faults have any bearing on whether Skerries/Drogheda/Navan got a relay? I thought a loss of sync would lead to more dramatic problems across the jointly-served area.

For what it's worth, at my folks house Three Rock/Kippure on Ch. 54 seems to be weaker than it was in the heady days of the MPEG2 trial. I can no longer pick it up on a log periodic in the garage when this used to be the case. Cairn Hill (Ch 47) on the other hand seems to be more powerful now than when DTT first started up there.

Antenna

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Tralee (2)

What are the two transmiters for Tralee? I see only one

Sponge Bob

Antenna wrote: »

What are the two transmiters for Tralee? I see only one

Plus Mullaghanish on full power, think of them legacy TV3 aerials

Ronnie Raygun

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Having said all that they were conceived at a time when Kippure/3Rock were supposed to be an SFN and if that SFN plan was abandoned then timing issues were not important any more.

Supposed to be SFN; how are they operating at present?

Do they use the same 1/32 GI as other txs?

deaglan169

no further transmissions from monaghan on 55V but radio stations were off the air for a day so work must be ongoing, on another note a friend of mine who lives in north monaghan got a freeview hd box and on a pair of rabbit ears is getting full irish dtt on ch62 is this clermont

STB

There will be no channels in the 60s.

Are you sure you have the right Channel No/Frequency.

55 is Monaghan. 52 Clermont.

deaglan169

seen it first hand myself cant understand it, is clermont not on 53

The Cush

deaglan169 wrote: »

on another note a friend of mine who lives in north monaghan got a freeview hd box and on a pair of rabbit ears is getting full irish dtt on ch62 is this clermont

STB wrote: »

There will be no channels in the 60s.

Are you sure you have the right Channel No/Frequency.

55 is Monaghan. 52 Clermont.

UHF Ch 62 was allocated to Monaghan at RRC06.

The Digital Dividend band (CH 61-69) doesn't have to be cleared until 01 Jan 2013.

Could it be an interim 1st or 2nd mux at Monaghan?

sesswhat

Letterkenny now live on 53 V.

The Cush

sesswhat wrote: »

Letterkenny now live on 53 V.

Not officially live per RTÉNL's coverage map yet, in testing mode probably.

Sponge Bob

Yep, same as Clifden was tested for a week or two before easter and went 'live' 2 weeks ago.

Only two left where no signal has been seen yet, Knockanore near Ballybunion and Arranmore Island in west Donegal.

darth_maul

Arrain Mhór (arranmore donegal) is no on air on channel 44 and 47 power seems quite low compared to the analogue signal compared to truskmore

sesswhat

Sounds like a last big push then for tomorrow.

darth_maul

darth_maul wrote: »

Arrain Mhór (arranmore donegal) is no on air on channel 44 and 47 power seems quite low compared to the analogue signal compared to truskmore

ok seems like I posted a bit early on this maybe it just came on, but ch 47 is now coming in with a perfect signal quality, Ch 44 is still lower with a much lower signal quality could be interference from the local deflector. tested with a promax Tvhunter ch 44 signal 59dbuv mer 19db, ch 47 signal 72dbuv mer 34db.

Clareman08

I have been getting DTT from Clifden here in West Clare south of Lahinch now for about 2 weeks. As the weather is well and truly broken now I think it's time to update my previous post.

Using a small Group A aerial, vertically polarised, via a masthead amp (previously used horizontally for Mullaghanish) the signal level is generally 85% on my Walker box with a high of 90% and a low of 82% depending on weather. Signal quality is always at 100%, so it looks like Clifden can be a permanent solution along the coast here despite the distance.

Souriau

I am picking up Monaghan E55 outside Newry

Peter Rhea

Yes, Monaghan definitely on 55 atm, also a lower powered transmission on UHF 59.

deaglan169

full signal on 55 and 59 even though my antenna is horz and to cairn hill, although i can see the tx site from roof of house no channels picked up on 59

Souriau

deaglan169 wrote: »

no further transmissions from monaghan on 55V but radio stations were off the air for a day so work must be ongoing, on another note a friend of mine who lives in north monaghan got a freeview hd box and on a pair of rabbit ears is getting full irish dtt on ch62 is this clermont

Is Monaghan not 55H?

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

Is Monaghan not 55H?

Reported testing on 55V last month - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71598865#post71598865

Peter Rhea

Souriau wrote: »

Is Monaghan not 55H?

It is; just because someone picked it up on a VP aerial doesn't mean the tx is vertical.

deaglan169

an aerial installer friend initially told me he was getting the test transmissions on vertical outside armagh, i cant test vertical vs horizontal as im too close to the tx site

The Cush

The following question on coverage (or lack of it) was down for answer in the Dáil yesterday.

12. Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he or the digital switchover steering group have identified areas in which neither terrestrial nor satellite reception will be possible after 2012 due to terrain;his plans to provide a digital RTÉ signal in these areas; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10826/11]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): RTÉ is an independent national public service broadcaster whose remit and obligations are set out in the Broadcasting Act 2009.

Section 114 (1) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 states the principal objects and associated powers of RTÉ, including the power to build and operate digital multiplexes under section 114 (1)(j).

Under Section 130, RTÉ is required to build and operate digital multiplexes and to make these available to the same extent as the existing analogue network, which is available to 98% of the population. RTÉ has informed me it plans to provide the Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) network to 98% of the population in fulfilment of its statutory obligations.

I have also been informed by RTÉ that the following is its DTT rollout schedule:

Date |Population Coverage| Comments
October 2010| c. 94.5%| Achieved
Q 2 2011| c. 97.2%| On target for Public launch in May 2011
Q3 2012| c. 97.7%| On target
Q4 2012| c. 98%| On target

In addition, I have been informed that RTÉ proposes to offer a free to air satellite service to provide coverage to the last 2% of the population.

The RTÉ decision to provide a satellite service is being made by RTÉ on a commercial basis. RTÉ has indicated that this service in conjunction with the DTT network will provide coverage to virtually 100% of the population. The satellite, which will be used to provide this service, launched in late 2010 and is currently undergoing tests.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/05/12/00022.asp

The SI that mandated RTÉ to launch the PSB multiplex last Oct required approx. 90% population coverage. In the reply by the Minister yesterday, the coverage at launch was c.94.5%. This is the first time I've seen the official figure.

marclt

Still the mysterious May 2011, why not give the date as we're in May.

If the 11th May was the date, there was no fanfare not even a new press release on the Saorview website! Dull!

deaglan169

monaghan off air, still though the epg is up to date and working, tried on both settop box in bedroom and sitting room not a thing:mad:

The Cush

deaglan169 wrote: »

monaghan off air, still though the epg is up to date and working, tried on both settop box in bedroom and sitting room not a thing:mad:

Monaghan isn't officially live yet, in testing mode so subject to interruption.

Just got word from a friend in Listowel that Cnoc an Óir (Knockanore) is now live. Getting a very good signal despite his aerial being directed at Maghera.

Mayo Exile

marclt wrote: »

Still the mysterious May 2011, why not give the date as we're in May.

If the 11th May was the date, there was no fanfare not even a new press release on the Saorview website! Dull!

Yes, surely they must have a date at this stage. Time to step up the publicity. Haven't seen the Saorview ad on the TV in a while.

The Cush

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Haven't seen the Saorview ad on the TV in a while.

It's still running, normally around news times. On the RTÉ News Now channel it appears to be on frequently, not very effective if your target market don't have DTT receivers.

The Cush

All sites now officially live - http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-checker/coverage-map/

Thread list updated

Main Sites

• Cairn Hill Longford 47H
• Clermont Carn Louth 53V
• Dungarvan Waterford 55H
• Holywell Hill Donegal 30H
• Kippure Wicklow 54H
• Maghera Clare 48H
• Mount Leinster Carlow 45H
• Mullaghanish Cork 21H
• Spur Hill Cork 45H
• Three Rock Dublin 54H
• Truskmore Sligo 53H
• Woodcock Hill Clare (Limerick) 47H

Relay/Transposer Sites

• Achill Mayo 47V
• Arklow Wicklow 21V
• Arranmore Donegal 47V
• Ballybofey Donegal 47V
• Bantry Cork 52H&V
• Cahir Tipperary Sth. 28V
• Casla (RnaG) Galway 45V
• Castlebar Mayo 22H
• Castletownbere Kerry 55V
• Clifden Galway 26V
• Clonakilty Cork 48H
• Clonmel Waterford 55H
• Cnoc an Oir Kerry 47V
• Collins Barracks Cork 50V
• Crosshaven Cork 46V
• Dooncarton Belmullet, Mayo 27H&V
• Fanad Donegal 55V
• Fermoy Cork 52V
• Ferrypoint Waterford 47V
• Forth Mountain Wexford 52V
• Gallows Hill (Rathfadden) Waterford (City) 22V
• Glanmire Cork 47H
• Glencolmcille Donegal 45H
• Gorey Wexford 55H
• Greystones Wicklow 52V
• Kilduff Tipperary Nth. 52H
• Kilkeaveragh Kerry 47V
• Kinsale Cork 30V
• Knockmoyle Kerry 52V
• Laragh Wicklow 47H
• Letterkenny Donegal 53V
• Maamclassach Kerry 46V
• Magheraroarty Donegal 22V
• Malin Donegal 28H
• Mitchelstown Cork 40V
• Monaghan (Lugad) Monaghan 55H
• Moville Donegal 45H
• Suir Valley Waterford 52V
• Tonabrocky Galway 26V

Green = On-Air (24 May 2011) - 51 sites
Blue = Planned by Mid 2011 - 0 sites

Machinehead

X marks the spot.
According the the coverage checker this is where I'm at, nothing, nada:rolleyes:
ATM quality 60% & strength @ 100% from Maghera. Last night both were @ 100%:D
Silly question: the coverage checker says that I should be directed to Knockmoyle (which I can't see though less than 3km away). My aerial is @ horizontal for Maghera but Knockmoyle is vertical. Would output readings for Knockmoyle remain the the same (10% quality 90% strength) whether the aerial was/not at correctly polarity? or are the levels poor just because I'm at H rather than V? Does this question make sense?

The Cush

Machinehead wrote: »

X marks the spot.
According the the coverage checker this is where I'm at, nothing, nada:rolleyes:
ATM quality 60% & strength @ 100% from Maghera. Last night both were @ 100%:D

Below is the caution RTÉNL give when using the coverage checker. It doesn't provide coverage information for areas covered by multiple transmitters. Keeping it simple for the average viewer.

Coverage

• Coverage shown is based on a rooftop aerial in good condition (indoor reception may be possible in areas with very good signal strength).
• Coverage shown is indicative only.
• Local environment (hills, forestry, trees, buildings, and other large obstructions) will cause coverage to vary from what is shown.
• RTÉNL recommends consultation with a competent local aerial installer to confirm coverage in your area.

Machinehead wrote: »

Silly question: the coverage checker says that I should be directed to Knockmoyle (which I can't see though less than 3km away). My aerial is @ horizontal for Maghera but Knockmoyle is vertical. Would output readings for Knockmoyle remain the the same (10% quality 90% strength) whether the aerial was/not at correctly polarity? or are the levels poor just because I'm at H rather than V? Does this question make sense?

Is there a hill or other obstruction blocking your reception of Knockmoyle? At 3 km away you would think the proverbial coat hangar would pick up a decent signal.

Pointing the aerial at Knockmoyle, with the correct polarisation, should increase the signal quality received but by how much would only be a guess - depends on the terrain, aerial etc.

STB

Machinehead wrote: »

X marks the spot.
According the the coverage checker this is where I'm at, nothing, nada:rolleyes:
ATM quality 60% & strength @ 100% from Maghera. Last night both were @ 100%:D
Silly question: the coverage checker says that I should be directed to Knockmoyle (which I can't see though less than 3km away). My aerial is @ horizontal for Maghera but Knockmoyle is vertical. Would output readings for Knockmoyle remain the the same (10% quality 90% strength) whether the aerial was/not at correctly polarity? or are the levels poor just because I'm at H rather than V? Does this question make sense?

Worst guess scenarios. I have already questioned some here as to problem areas they have perceived from prediction maps. I am almost certain DTT will get into places analogue only slightly did. Google maps cannot tell you this!

Vince Cable

STB wrote: »

I am almost certain DTT will get into places analogue only slightly did. Google maps cannot tell you this!

He's probably just getting reflections from Knockmoyle as he's almost 'under' the mountain.
Of course this would be useless for analogue.

Machinehead

The Cush wrote: »

Below is the caution RTÉNL give when using the coverage checker. It doesn't provide coverage information for areas covered by multiple transmitters. Keeping it simple for the average viewer.




Is there a hill or other obstruction blocking your reception of Knockmoyle? At 3 km away you would think the proverbial coat hangar would pick up a decent signal.

Pointing the aerial at Knockmoyle, with the correct polarisation, should increase the signal quality received but by how much would only be a guess - depends on the terrain, aerial etc.

I've no less mountain between me & Knockmoyle than I have between me & Maghera but I'm stuck right at the bottom of a couple of hills between me and the mast (Knockmoyle), bearing in mind Mulla was always crap. I was just contemplating what might happen if I rotated my aerial 90 degrees & what might happen re signal on a different polarity. ATM I'm pretty satisfied with Maghera since the power increase ~ quality 60-70% strength 100% with a wideband aerial (C/D I think).

STB

Vince Cable wrote: »

He's probably just getting reflections from Knockmoyle as he's almost 'under' the mountain.
Of course this would be useless for analogue.

I am not familiar with the area Vince but again there are too many imponderables with DTT to map it via google (C/N, guard interval set etc). I would imagine we will see a lot more reception reports from non DXrs. Again prediction maps are just that, best guess predictions.

I am sure the RTE engineers have Sefram meters and are happily recording ripples.

Sponge Bob

And so it will come to pass that standard Saorview STBs will be Freeview HD compatible. I am surprised....not

watty

Only if Saorview boxes & TVs have DVB-T2 tuners.

Probably by 2012 or 2013 only DVB-T2 TVs & Set-boxes produced. But for now the majority of Irish compatible gear has no DVB-T2 hardware.

DVB-T2 Hardware can do DVB-T but not vice-versa.

PressTheButton

Saorview certified Triax TR 112 tuner is DVB-T with built-in obsolescence. Ah lads, I've only got mine two days!

lucernarian

RTE when planning the earlier DTT network used OSI data and some sort of coverage tool or other. Based on signal strengths of 61dBuV which is much higher than the 45dBuV cited here for the minimum receiving level of DTT receivers. I am not sure if the minimum level would increase for higher QAM constellations (i.e. QAM64 instead of QAM16) but in any case RTÉ seem to have picked the same value and transposed the resulting coverage onto google maps.

As I don't know enough about the conditions under which minimum signal strength for DVB-T is determined, I can't really comment on the significance of this difference except that RTÉ seem to be using conservative prediction values to account for local interference and suchlike. If local interference is not a problem (and it's one that can be avoided with good cable and a very directional aerial) then many places which are on the edge of coverage on that map but in white will actually have no problem receiving Saorview with a rooftop aerial. In towns this will be heavily complicated by the presence of large buildings or anywhere by the presence of large/thick trees.

The Cush

PressTheButton wrote: »

Saorview certified Triax TR 112 tuner is DVB-T with built-in obsolescence. Ah lads, I've only got mine two days!

I wouldn't worry, that box will be in the recycling centre long before it becomes obsolete.

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

RTE when planning the earlier DTT network used OSI data and some sort of coverage tool or other. Based on signal strengths of 61dBuV which is much higher than the 45dBuV cited here for the minimum receiving level of DTT receivers. I am not sure if the minimum level would increase for higher QAM constellations (i.e. QAM64 instead of QAM16) but in any case RTÉ seem to have picked the same value and transposed the resulting coverage onto google maps.

I don't know what parameters they use in the google coverage map, I've asked the question before. The only thing I've seen regarding this is from the Irish Indo last March

The online coverage mapping tool on the site, which allows consumers to check if they are covered by the Saorview service, was developed internally by RTENL.

http://www.independent.ie/business/media/rte-launch-switchover-campaign-for-its-saorview-digital-terrestrial-tv-service-2583035.html

Vince Cable

UK coverage criteria at 2.1 here

lucernarian

They used 61dBuV in the planning for Boxer/Easy TV/One Vision for a mux with identical transmission characteristics to the current Saorview muxes. I'd be very suprised if they changed the coverage contour to a different value for Saorview 2 years later.