need help on idea for deep space travel

wylo

Hi, I know this is a bit of strange post but here it goes:

At the moment Ive been coming up with a story which I would love to write. Its based on the psychology of deep space travel, but physics wise I want it to be as realistic and plausible as possible. I know whatever suggestions you may come up with will have to be impossible but if you can think of a plausible one it would be great.
What I mean by deep space travel is going from one galaxy to another in about 5 years, so obviously the speed of light would in theory have to broken many times over which is already impossible.
The setting for this story will be very normal, I want it as realistic as possible as I believe you can get way more attached to something that "could" happen. It will be set in the near future as opposed to the far far distant future where anything could happen.

So basically Im looking for ideas from you(the space experts:D) as to how you would be able make a trip like that possible.

ps. I also thought the thread might make an interesting debate regarding space travel!
Thanks

KoolKid

Some sort of worm hole?

rccaulfield

wylo wrote: »

Hi, I know this is a bit of strange post but here it goes:

At the moment Ive been coming up with a story which I would love to write. Its based on the psychology of deep space travel, but physics wise I want it to be as realistic and plausible as possible. I know whatever suggestions you may come up with will have to be impossible but if you can think of a plausible one it would be great.
What I mean by deep space travel is going from one galaxy to another in about 5 years, so obviously the speed of light would in theory have to broken many times over which is already impossible.
The setting for this story will be very normal, I want it as realistic as possible as I believe you can get way more attached to something that "could" happen. It will be set in the near future as opposed to the far far distant future where anything could happen.

So basically Im looking for ideas from you(the space experts:D) as to how you would be able make a trip like that possible.

ps. I also thought the thread might make an interesting debate regarding space travel!
Thanks

B4 i give my best answer the obvious ones are cyrogenic freezing -but then why 5 years and not 5 minutes? Other then that a worm hole is a possibility at the quantum level so why not at our level? These have been done b4 however!
If you want the Daddy of all answers imo its Einsteins explanation of spacetime that you can use to bring realism to it! I quote Brian Cox in his book- why e=mc2 "If we could build a spaceship that could whisk us into space at close to the speed of light then the distances to the stars would shrink(matter shrinks at close to light speed in sub atomic tests and would at the human level too!), and the amount of shrinking would increase the closer to the speed of light we get. If we managed to travel at 99.999999 per cent the speed of light then we could travel out of the milky way all the way to our neighbouring galaxy andromeda, almost 3 million light years away in a mere 50 years".

Its not 5 but you could introduce a generational thing into it? Dont forget to mention me/einstein in ur speech lol!

Improbable

I always like the idea of an Alcubierre Drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

ynotdu

Hi Wylo,You have got better answers above than this but i would suggest Star Trek the origional and some of its off-shoots as an entertaining way to learn mind bending concepts.

An awful lot including Me laugh at 'Trekkies' but Gene Roddenberry used all known theories and Science fiction for the original series.He was VERY clever in that it worked on two levels.One just an 'exciting' adventure,on deeper level it also was based on Spirituality,best known Science of the time and humour,much of what was speculative at the time of its first airing has in some forms come to be fact.

The origional series aired in about the mid 1960's when America and the Soviets were at the height of the cold war and the Space race, and China had no time for America and vice-versa.The Civil rights movement was at its height started really IMO by Rossa Parkes but led by MLK.

His genious was hiding the serious stuff behind a rip roaring adventure.It only lastd for about 73 episodes and that was after the show had been cancelled until the network gave into pressure and re-instated it.It got just silly though after about 50 episodes.It remains a monument as to how visionarys can get their ideas across to skeptics though.

He was totally insane though,like he had a Russian on the bridge sitting besides a Chinese working alongside a cranky Doctor who did not trust big drug companies,to add insult to injury he had a BLACK WOMAN holding a very high posistion on the bridge and a Scotsman,not forgetting that weirdo with green blood with pointy ears{who Fathered Astronaut Mike Massamino:)}

All those diverse cultures on one craft orbiting Planets,Yeah like that's EVER gonna happen;)

Myrddin

ynotdu wrote: »

An awful lot including Me laugh at 'Trekkies'

For someone who laughs at the shows fans, you certainly seem to know a lot about it

As for the OP's suggestions, why not take a leaf out of Stargate Universe (SG-U)? If your story is in the not too distant future, then presumably our technology will not have evolved much further. Therefore intergalactic travel woul still be an impossibility for us. Could you work it so that a certain craft was found, of unknown origin, and your characters were tasked with exploring the capabilities of the craft (Faster than light etc)? Or perhaps that could be a prologue to your story, and the current events detail your characters going to certain colonies/destinations that were originally established using the same craft?

The Cryogenics suggestion could also work well, you could fit the five year thing in by having it that the crew could only enter stasis after the ship broke the light barrier, as it took a lot of time/effort to do , and that it took about 5 years of acceleration to reach that velocity...

wylo

Some nice replies thanks!
Regarding the above post , its a nice idea alright, but i already have the story in place so its only really just a means of long distance travel Im looking for.
The story is a very psychological one, rather than sci-fi. Naturally enough though I want to use the deep space setting as that is also an interest of mine. Also , even though I said it wasnt sci fi as such I still would love to have that element in it. Basically going through how people survive in space, between exercise, types of food, hobbies, etc.
While there is a main plot, it also looks into how people can handle being so far and so isolated from Earth, and the other important thing is how can they handle being stuck together for about 5 years so far away.
This is one reason I dont want to use a wormhole, the journey is a part of story and a wormhole takes away from that massive massive distance.

Improbable, I just had a read about the Alcubierre drive and it looks interesting, maybe I could introduce the story with scientists discovering how to generate that wave or warp bubble.

rccaulfield, I dont like the cryogenic freezing because of the reasons above, i want the journey and the time to be an important thing. That said I really like your other suggestion and seems the most usable for 'nowadays', if there was a realistic way of bringing from about 50 years to even 10 years it would be definitely the most usable one. Ill get your name in the story somewhere if I use that idea :cool:.

riffmongous

Does it need to be deep space?
A trip to one of Saturn or Jupiter's moons would be more realistic/explainable, would take something near the same amount of time you are talking about and the distances involved would be still be large enough to boggle the human mind

namloc1980

If it's a near future setting and a journey time of 5 years then IMO the journey should be to somewhere in the solar system as that would be far more realistic and plausible than a trip to another galaxy.

Maybe a trip to Europa or Enceladus would be interesting to look at as it would take around the 5 years that you are talking about but it is also something that is realistic and may happen in reality in the next 100+ years.

gentillabdulla

A tachyon propulsion based system.

I got this one from a friend of mine....(It's a copy and paste by the way.)

Imagine you create a cylinder, maybe twice as high as its radius, and then place within it a smaller version of the cylinder, and then charge these two to be very very negative. What material? I don;t know. Something that holds lots and lots of electrons, Probably a metal that can run electrons through it at enormous rates, or a nonmetal that can hold lots of electrons and make a heavy duty negative charge. This is a thought experiment, so just imagine that this material is producible (as it probably will be in a few years with the rate of technological advancements these years. but anyway, back to the cylinder. Fill the space between them with negative particles (anti protons maybe, or something with significant mass). We want something that can obey the ideal gas laws, but also be compacted easily, so anti-hydrogen seems ideal for usage. Now, e have a gas that is in a confined space, but not allowed to touch the cylinders due to electronic charge. Now what do we do? We make a superfluid and freeze them to the point that they super condense into a "hollow" black hole (with the inner cylinder being the hollow part). Now, make a row of these things, each rotating in opposite directions to the one next to them. Then, place bellow this another line, going opposite in rotation to those above them. The lower ones would have gravity stronger to the ones above so that the combined vectors would create Earth gravity (or they could be equal for 0 gravity, whatever). None the less, this creates an area under the influence of the gravity. The gravity should be only relative to the general area of the two groups, as gravity should be canceled out by their rotation and spins as you go farther out. What we're doing here is using gravity wells. However, it may be easier for us to use eliptic cylinders, rather than circular shapes ones. This enables us to create and destroy waves at levels within human control. The areas of larger radius have more gravity, smaller radius areas have les gravity, so we can create waves in the space-time continum just as we do in wave pools. Using this method, we'd need to use alternating patterns of gravity rings to make it so that the craft would be cut off from outside relativity. This is done through gravity valleys. Then we need to accelerate areas in the back of the craft. By doing this, impulse from the back is pushing the ship ahead of it with a lot more energy being put in. Taping the back of this area of accelerated time, would make it soom away at speeds faster han our relativity of light speed. Bug because of the gravity ring, it pulls everything within this temporal "bubble" with it. It would be like having a wind tunnel, of sorts. At this point, the ship is propelled forward and space around them warp so that the ship could travel faster then light relative to us, but not faster than light to its own relativity. Time should be affected so that the gravity "canyon"around the gravity hill and the rest of the universe is that you can move faster then light while not breaking the laws of the universe. If a photon hits the hill, it slows due to the slowing of time from gravity, ultimately coming to what we would see as a complete stop. If light cannot reach the item within the ring of gravity, then information cannot go faster than the paused light to tell the craft to go slower than light. The spin within, however, should accelerate time enough so that the time outside the shell and inside go relatively at the same rates, thus achieving fast travel. This works in par with Newton's shell theorem, only working in such a way so as to limit all information from outside.

As a side note:

Also, taking this concept further, if you used the same method to make two hollow spheres, one inside the other, and filled the space in between with matter (like the cylinder above),and charged the spheres, that you could go forward in time. The inner hollow sphere would be weightless, and allow a human to occupy it. Time within should go far slower then outside. Perhaps spinning it would allow reverse time travel, as the good Dr Ronald Mallett is doing with his time machine.


Now back to warp speed:

To destroy the black hole, some solutions would be protons. If we take the route of the borderline-black hole, the protons would reach the inner parts and destroy it. Otherwise natural black hole evaporation is the only way.

continues...(this was part 2 of it to someone who wanted me to explain it more)

Well often Gravity is shown as a kind of valley on a 2d plane. And this is also where time begins to be altered as a result of gravity ( I believe that's how it works). Knowing this, I wanted to think of how I could create the opposite. This area would go faster or equal to our relativity to our viewpoint. A Gravity "hill" is what I thought of.

One way to make this hill may be by creating a hollow black hole, or something with enough gravity to make the distortion.

Indeed, "hollow" isn't the right phrase perhaps. It's basically two hollow spheres, one smaller than the other, and the space between being filled with a lot of compressed mass. It's kind of forcing three dimensions into something that has none through an indirect trick. Black holes have no dimensions, so this method is forcing dimensions into a dimensionless void.

I have a pictures if it helps:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2962/time1hh2de4.png

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9257/timething2ox6.png

By leaving the space inside empty, with 1 ATP, and the opposite side with opposite spin of the black holes, you can create an area not affected by time space distortions, and as such a gravity hill artificially made. Think of this point as like between two enormous bodies. Their pull of gravity is such so that one cancels out the other a little bit more then the other, thus creating 1 Earth Gravity for the occupants to safely exist in (or you can have them equal and have 0 gravity)

More pictures if it helps

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5180/timespaceplane1fm4.png

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6741/spacetimepathsea4.png

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/897/gspin1qs0.png

Basically, matter in the gravity ring you see in the picture above, moves slower from time space distortions and then moves normally to our relativity inside the gravity well. By doing this, you can move faster to a location than it would take on normal speeds, because your object is traveling through this gravity ring at normal speeds, but it seems to be going faster than light at our viewpoint. I believe this is a Doppler effect of some sort. I think it may be creating a very large tachyon to our relativity, but in reality it is not.

Warp speed, in a simple term.


Hope that helps.

As to the possible application to a time machine I mentioned in the later parts of my message, it's just an alteration a bit to what's there. Just two hollow spheres, one smaller then the other, and on inside the other, with lots of matter in between them. That should allow the occupant inside the inner sphere to safely travel forward in time because time to that person would seem to go faster relative to that location inside.


Finally, the ship. The cylinders around it are the previously mentioned cylinders. Within is a ship, surfing the gravity waves.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7183/frontstrshp.png

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2428/side2strshp.png

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8652/sidelightsp.png

Rubecula

A plasma drive to get close to light speed then a Space warp system that moves Space past the ship at many times the speed of light.

Instead of the ship moving through space faster than light, which is not possible. Space itself is compressed and dilated around the ship giving the ship an apparent speed faster than light.

gentillabdulla

Rubecula wrote: »

A plasma drive to get close to light speed then a Space warp system that moves Space past the ship at many times the speed of light.

Instead of the ship moving through space faster than light, which is not possible. Space itself is compressed and dilated around the ship giving the ship an apparent speed faster than light.

That was already stated above as the alcubierre warp drive by improbable.

Rubecula

My appologies for resating something already posted. I should read things a bit more slowly in future.

Sorry:(

gentillabdulla

Rubecula wrote: »

My appologies for resating something already posted. I should read things a bit more slowly in future.

Sorry:(

It's okay !

If you find a new one just post a reply or edit your first one.

Rubecula

gentillabdulla wrote: »

It's okay !

If you find a new one just post a reply or edit your first one.

Not sure I can think of anything else unless it is popping out of this universe and re-entering at a different place. But I think that has also been suggested.

gentillabdulla

How about quantum tunneling?

(Obviously a somewhat enhanced version of quantum tunneling for a ship.)

Improbable

I just thought of another one. It might be interesting to have them travel at sublight speeds but engage some sort of localized time dilation field, or hook them up to a neural interface to slow their perception of time in combination with some sort of advanced anti-aging mechanism of some sort.

rccaulfield

wylo wrote: »

Some nice replies thanks!
Regarding the above post , its a nice idea alright, but i already have the story in place so its only really just a means of long distance travel Im looking for.
The story is a very psychological one, rather than sci-fi. Naturally enough though I want to use the deep space setting as that is also an interest of mine. Also , even though I said it wasnt sci fi as such I still would love to have that element in it. Basically going through how people survive in space, between exercise, types of food, hobbies, etc.
While there is a main plot, it also looks into how people can handle being so far and so isolated from Earth, and the other important thing is how can they handle being stuck together for about 5 years so far away.
This is one reason I dont want to use a wormhole, the journey is a part of story and a wormhole takes away from that massive massive distance.

Improbable, I just had a read about the Alcubierre drive and it looks interesting, maybe I could introduce the story with scientists discovering how to generate that wave or warp bubble.

rccaulfield, I dont like the cryogenic freezing because of the reasons above, i want the journey and the time to be an important thing. That said I really like your other suggestion and seems the most usable for 'nowadays', if there was a realistic way of bringing from about 50 years to even 10 years it would be definitely the most usable one. Ill get your name in the story somewhere if I use that idea :cool:.

Lol! Unfortunately 50 years is the maths of it and that wont change! Its impossible to travel at or faster then the speed of light so there it is! If it has to be 5 years-maybe the other side of the galaxy at 80% speed of light would be the job! Its 100,000 light years across iirc but with whats mentioned in my first post that would come right down! Best of luck!

Kidchameleon

Some kind of asteroid that is traveling near the speed of light is passing by earth and they hitch a ride on it perhaps?

Capt'n Midnight

keep it simple

wormholes are dangerous so you want them far away so you have to travel for 2.5 years to get to it

from the plot you can decide how long you want messages to take to travel
if you want 5 years delay then you can travel at near light speed
if you want a few months delay then say they can only travel at 1/10 light speed

ynotdu

EnterNow wrote: »

For someone who laughs at the shows fans, you certainly seem to know a lot about it

Moi a Trekkie?:o:o:o

Naw i am a Rodenberry!:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihsSmJNsDX8

bombs away

If you could travel faster than light would'nt that mean you were travelling backwards through time and so would arrive before you left?? Little off topic but something to think about

Do tachyons travel backwards through time and is that why we can't detect them?

furerer

The craft you use would have to manouvered out of our galaxy first, that means if you go at near light speed you run the risk of smashing into other objects, and if you go beyond light speed you will not see the objects...untill you hit it. You could let your readers assume the craft has a wizard of a compter which calculates all the parameters faster than light, as most sci-fi stories do.....but it's been done sooo many times.
Best might be as another person wrote, freeze the people untill you are outside the galaxy, whereupon they wake...then the fun can start. Pick out another galaxy, any one, and either use space/time fold technique, where the space in front of you can be squeezed behind you and you are thrust forward to the edge of the new galaxy, or you can go with the answers already given by others of a light speed engine, as once clear of the galaxies there is far less chance of you running into an object. Once at your destination galaxy let your imagination roll. Of course it is a 1 way trip....unless they meet up with another race at some time whereupon they are given the ability to jump between galaxies and planets safely.

Hope that is some sort of help......if not......IGNORE!

rccaulfield

bombs away wrote: »

If you could travel faster than light would'nt that mean you were travelling backwards through time and so would arrive before you left?? Little off topic but something to think about

Do tachyons travel backwards through time and is that why we can't detect them?

You cant go at aor faster then light! Ur mass gets too great for one reason !;)

Rubecula

I assume by your words the journey itself is the imortant thing.

So why not do the trip at high sublight speeds instead?

There was an idea put forward some time ago about future abilities on transfering the human mind into the body of humanoid robot for long journeys in space.

Would something like this be of use. If the time period at sublight speed seems to be too long you can have them asleep for most of the journey, just being awake for repairs to the ship and such.

The crew could each be awake in turn for one day at a time, unless you want interactions, in which case they could be all awakened to carry out certain tasks at specific periods of time.