Partial Spay

rosiejosie

Hi there, I 'm just wondering if anybody knows of a vet in Ireland who performs partial spays? I've been doing some research and this is definately my preferred route for our little girl when the time comes, but when I enquired at my local vets they hadn't heard of it. I think it's a fairly new method. Anyway, any info much appreciated.

lrushe

Do you mean like an ovariectomies? Removing the ovaries but not the uterus? My fear with this would be the risk of pyometra would still be there. What are your reasons for choosing to do a partial spay?
I don't know of any vets who preform this procedure off hand as I've never availed of it myself but if you ring the veterinary college they might be able to refer you.

Knine

As far as I know this was an old method used by vets to spay years ago where they removed uterus but left in ovaries so the animal still had the hormones. Nowadays they take the whole lot out as leaving in the ovaries would leave the dog/cat/rabbit open to getting cancer or cysts so its recommended to remove them all.

morganafay

If you mean leaving in the ovaries then the dog would still come in heat, which would be annoying, and be prone to cancers, cysts like Knine said.

And my vet said something like if you left in the ovaries and accidentally left a small piece of the uterus, then the dog could still get pregnant but obviously the pups wouldn't survive and there would be problems. I should have asked her more about that, because it's pretty confusing, but something if there's a bit of uterus tissue left that I guess an embryo could start developing, causing problems for the bitch.

I'm sure there are some possible benefits to it too though.

rosiejosie

The partial spay removes the uterine horns, body of the uterus and entire cervix and leaves one or both of the ovaries. This leaves some hormone function, she would still attract males but be unable to get pregnant and would not bleed. I personally feel the benefits of the partial spay outweigh the risks. I am strongly pro-neuter but I've been doing a lot of reading about the not so great side effects it can have. An ovariohysterectomy can lead to obesity, cardiac stress and urinary incontinance, it can also lead to a whole host of physical and mental problems such as increased aggression in females, inhibited social adjustment if spayed to early, degenerative osteological disorders, likelihood of cognitive disoders, undesirable urination...the list goes on. By leaving the hormone function a partial spay much decreases the risk of a lot of those problems. As for the risk of cancer, I believe that there are many more things in a dogs daily environment that could increase the chance of cancer, such as chemicals from pesticides, insecticides, poor quality food, estrogens and chemical residues in water, etc. There are a lot of harmful substances that we and our pets come into contact with every day, I prefer to aim to keep cancer at bay by making sure my dogs eat well, get plenty of exercise and aren't exposed unnecessarily to harmful chemicals rather than by removing organs that play a vital role in their health. If you think of the effect that the same surgery or even going through the menopause can have on a woman, it just makes sense to me. Hormones have many important functions and i just think it would be best to leave nature alone as much as possible.
Calling the vet college is a great idea, thanks for that!

lrushe

rosiejosie wrote: »

Calling the vet college is a great idea, thanks for that!

Let me know what the veterinary college's take on this procedure is, I've a bitch myself who will be spayed next year so I'd be interested in whatever they have to say.

rosiejosie

lrushe wrote: »

Let me know what the veterinary college's take on this procedure is, I've a bitch myself who will be spayed next year so I'd be interested in whatever they have to say.

I will of course, I just emailed them and if I don't hear back through that I'll give them a call and then I'll fill you in.

morganafay

Thanks, that's very interesting. I have had a few female cats who've become aggressive and overweight after spaying, though they were related so maybe it was genetic and not because of spaying. Still it's interesting though.

I have two kittens I'm getting neutered in a month or two and would consider this, but they would attract males (and there's a very aggressive tom cat living near me) and there would be more risk of them catching something like FIV/FeLV, so for them they'll be completely spayed.

suraheg

I graduated from UCD Vet Nursing in June and we were taught, and the vets are trained to do, Ovariohysterectomys. This is completely best practice. Leaving in the ovaries can cause different hormonal problems - the cat/dog would still come into heat (there is still uterine tissue left in the 'stump' after spaying), which would attract males etc. Theres also the possibility of a 'stump' pyometra. Like a normal pyo but only in the tissue left in the stump at the cervix. Also it can cause problems like phantom pregnancies, which can be really stressful for your animal. Things like obesity can be managed by her diet, if it does end up being a problem later on in life.

All in all, any vet I have ever spoken to have always recommended Ovariohysterectomys.

Graces7

rosiejosie wrote: »

The partial spay removes the uterine horns, body of the uterus and entire cervix and leaves one or both of the ovaries. This leaves some hormone function, she would still attract males but be unable to get pregnant and would not bleed. I personally feel the benefits of the partial spay outweigh the risks. I am strongly pro-neuter but I've been doing a lot of reading about the not so great side effects it can have. An ovariohysterectomy can lead to obesity, cardiac stress and urinary incontinance, it can also lead to a whole host of physical and mental problems such as increased aggression in females, inhibited social adjustment if spayed to early, degenerative osteological disorders, likelihood of cognitive disoders, undesirable urination...the list goes on. By leaving the hormone function a partial spay much decreases the risk of a lot of those problems. As for the risk of cancer, I believe that there are many more things in a dogs daily environment that could increase the chance of cancer, such as chemicals from pesticides, insecticides, poor quality food, estrogens and chemical residues in water, etc. There are a lot of harmful substances that we and our pets come into contact with every day, I prefer to aim to keep cancer at bay by making sure my dogs eat well, get plenty of exercise and aren't exposed unnecessarily to harmful chemicals rather than by removing organs that play a vital role in their health. If you think of the effect that the same surgery or even going through the menopause can have on a woman, it just makes sense to me. Hormones have many important functions and i just think it would be best to leave nature alone as much as possible.
Calling the vet college is a great idea, thanks for that!

A small word of caution.. Lay reading of professional stuff can mislead greatly.

They have a different language and that list is misleading also.... Statistically needs careful interpretation also; you would need to do a huge amount of deep reading and research to make the statements you are making also.

As can comparing a dog's systems with a human's.

morganafay

And if you're reading articles that are pro-partial spays then they could be very convincing that it is the right thing to do.

Graces7

suraheg wrote: »

I graduated from UCD Vet Nursing in June and we were taught, and the vets are trained to do, Ovariohysterectomys. This is completely best practice. Leaving in the ovaries can cause different hormonal problems - the cat/dog would still come into heat (there is still uterine tissue left in the 'stump' after spaying), which would attract males etc. Theres also the possibility of a 'stump' pyometra. Like a normal pyo but only in the tissue left in the stump at the cervix. Also it can cause problems like phantom pregnancies, which can be really stressful for your animal. Things like obesity can be managed by her diet, if it does end up being a problem later on in life.

All in all, any vet I have ever spoken to have always recommended Ovariohysterectomys.

Would also need a very, very able vet.

Never had an overweight cat in all these years and all were spayed...

Graces7

morganafay wrote: »

And if you're reading articles that are pro-partial spays then they could be very convincing that it is the right thing to do.

Exactly so..

Family in Canada are still shocked that vets here make the incision in the side of the cat. ....They could not beleive that any vet still did that.

morganafay

My vet said that cats aren't usually overweight. Just two of mine have been (mother and daughter) out of dozens of cats over the years. And the daughter I still have is 10, and not obese, just has belly fat, as any older lady might.

My vet doesn't make the incision in the side, no vet I have been to has either. What are the advantages and disadvantages of that anyway?

Graces7

morganafay wrote: »

My vet said that cats aren't usually overweight. Just two of mine have been (mother and daughter) out of dozens of cats over the years. And the daughter I still have is 10, and not obese, just has belly fat, as any older lady might.

My vet doesn't make the incision in the side, no vet I have been to has either. What are the advantages and disadvantages of that anyway?

Country vets! way behind the times.... It was the same in the UK.... Yet they did the dogs differently. Just the cats...

suraheg

morganafay wrote: »

My vet said that cats aren't usually overweight. Just two of mine have been (mother and daughter) out of dozens of cats over the years. And the daughter I still have is 10, and not obese, just has belly fat, as any older lady might.

My vet doesn't make the incision in the side, no vet I have been to has either. What are the advantages and disadvantages of that anyway?

Years ago vets were taught to do it on the side, nowadays they're taught midline (along the belly).
Midline is a bit more risky because they cut through the muscle layer so there's greater risk of herniation and the sutures bursting if the cat is moving about and jumping around. I think theyre taught to do it midline nowadays for greater visualisation.
Midline you push the muscle aside, and theres less time needed to heal.

Graces7

suraheg wrote: »

Years ago vets were taught to do it on the side, nowadays they're taught midline (along the belly).
Midline is a bit more risky because they cut through the muscle layer so there's greater risk of herniation and the sutures bursting if the cat is moving about and jumping around. I think theyre taught to do it midline nowadays for greater visualisation.
Midline you push the muscle aside, and theres less time needed to heal.

Yep; a direct route so to speak .....

lrushe

I think anyone putting that much thought into the health of their pet should be applauded. The OP is going to great lengths to find out as much info as posssible before settling on a decision and who knows maybe after speaking to a few vets might opt for a traditional spay after all. Not every animal fits the one mould and I for one am interested in anything the OP finds out, good or bad.

Graces7

lrushe wrote: »

I think anyone putting that much thought into the health of their pet should be applauded. The OP is going to great lengths to find out as much info as posssible before settling on a decision and who knows maybe after speaking to a few vets might opt for a traditional spay after all. Not every animal fits the one mould and I for one am interested in anything the OP finds out, good or bad.

I appreciate that; but vet papers use a jargon. As do all medical papers.

The conditions listed may happen say once in a million and may be for other reasons anyways. They have to be recorded for legal reasons.

So there is no real danger...

It's like the US yellow card scheme for drug side effects.

Every tiny fact has to be recorded IN CASE. Lawsuits are big business in the US.

Going by eg one article without researching what has gone into it and the validilty of that research is rather unreliable.

The OP would need to read many, many papers, question and analyze the research etc etc etc.

And then find a vet experienced and competent to do this .

And other countries have different protocol; like researching sedatives for dogs.. US vets still applaud ACP which all on this board rightly say is bad.. even though it has caused many deaths in dogs..

They also declaw routinely there...

I never trust papers online for that reason; always read the "opposition" which has been most expertly statd by a Vet Nurse here already..

I asked our Canadian family experts; partial spaying is outlawed there. No valid reason for it; and part of the reason for spaying and why juvenile spaying is used so widely there is the factor of "hormone memory"....

And we have collectively bred etc for decades.

Often the best advice will come from boards, not the professionals also;)

So much more research would be needed .. My own take would be no for many reasons. I personally have never seen any of the problems they list in any cat or dog over decades.

Wisco

Also as to the issue of cancer and feeding well to avoid this... mammary tumours are VERY common in older bitches which have not been neutered or were neutered late in life. It is the hormone cycles which make them more common, so spaying in the traditional ovariohysterectomy way at 6 months (or before the first heat) is almost guaranteed to prevent them. Diet has no part in this. And as the other VN said, if you leave ovarian tissue you can get stump pyometras, which I have seen when ovaries were left by mistake (or some amount of ovarian tissue was left).
I think this is an area where doing research over the internet can be dangerous. Having said that, I'm pretty sure most vets wouldn't do it for you anyway as it's not taught in vet school and is not common practice. I do definitely think all pet owners should do a bit of research and be aware of pros and cons of neutering (or any surgery) but make sure your info comes from reputable and up to date sources (not gimmicky stuff)

lrushe

Wisco wrote: »

I think this is an area where doing research over the internet can be dangerous. Having said that, I'm pretty sure most vets wouldn't do it for you anyway as it's not taught in vet school and is not common practice. I do definitely think all pet owners should do a bit of research and be aware of pros and cons of neutering (or any surgery) but make sure your info comes from reputable and up to date sources (not gimmicky stuff)

I agree and its not a procedure I would necessarily be 100% comfortable with myself hence the reason I'm so interested in finding out what the vet college says about it. In fairness to the OP though they weren't just relying on studies, they were on here asking for advice and have also made contact with the vet college so I think they should get a well rounded opinion in the end.

Feargal as Luimneach

Graces7 wrote: »

Country vets! way behind the times.... It was the same in the UK.... Yet they did the dogs differently. Just the cats...

Ovarian ligaments are alot tighter in the bitch so a spay has to be midline.

"Country vets! way behind the times..."

Unless you have spayed cats before, I don't think you can start judging people on whether they do a flank or midline approach to cat spays!:mad:

Discodog

Wisco wrote: »

Also as to the issue of cancer and feeding well to avoid this... mammary tumours are VERY common in older bitches which have not been neutered or were neutered late in life. It is the hormone cycles which make them more common, so spaying in the traditional ovariohysterectomy way at 6 months (or before the first heat) is almost guaranteed to prevent them. Diet has no part in this. And as the other VN said, if you leave ovarian tissue you can get stump pyometras, which I have seen when ovaries were left by mistake (or some amount of ovarian tissue was left).
I think this is an area where doing research over the internet can be dangerous. Having said that, I'm pretty sure most vets wouldn't do it for you anyway as it's not taught in vet school and is not common practice. I do definitely think all pet owners should do a bit of research and be aware of pros and cons of neutering (or any surgery) but make sure your info comes from reputable and up to date sources (not gimmicky stuff)

This is very true. Even when an older dog is spayed it still reduces the risk of mammary tumours. One of my dogs, unspayed at the time, got a malignant mammary tumour. She loves laying on her back on my lap so it got spotted. It was literally just like a rice crispie & almost un-noticable.
After it was removed & tested my Vet explained that as the dog came close to being on heat that the tumour would of grown very rapidly & spread. She said that it would reached the size of a walnut within 3 months !.

Hormones have a dramatic effect on these tumours which are one of the major causes of premature death. A partial spay will not protect from this.