What is the point of the PRTB!!!

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

Perhaps landlords need to ask for a bigger desposit if client are paid via RA a month in arrears, and not directly. Perhaps 2 or 3 months rent (+ how many months the local authority are are behind).

You are joking of course, given that the greatest problem tenants have is getting our exisiting deposit back from landlords..

Where do you imagine eg pensioners are going to get that sum from?

Osgoodisgood

Graces7 wrote: »

You are joking of course, given that the greatest problem tenants have is getting our exisiting deposit back from landlords..

Where do you imagine eg pensioners are going to get that sum from?

You clearly have issues with landlords and the system of renting from private individuals as a whole. As an aside, perhaps renting is not for you?

Retention of deposit is always an issue for the tenant but it is an issue for the landlord too. Any time a landlord goes down that path he knows full well the horror he is undertaking and tenants know it too. Deciding whether to attempt to deduct damages (beyond normal wear and tear) from a deposit is a balancing act. Is the return of funds worth the pain?

I'm sure there are landlords out there that see the deposit as an opportunity but I'm not one of them and neither are any of the landlords I know personally. We want proper professional relationships with our tenants and thoroughly resent the image of gouging vampires that is often suggested.

Graces7

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

You clearly have issues with landlords and the system of renting from private individuals as a whole. As an aside, perhaps renting is not for you?

Retention of deposit is always an issue for the tenant but it is an issue for the landlord too. Any time a landlord goes down that path he knows full well the horror he is undertaking and tenants know it too. Deciding whether to attempt to deduct damages (beyond normal wear and tear) from a deposit is a balancing act. Is the return of funds worth the pain?

I'm sure there are landlords out there that see the deposit as an opportunity but I'm not one of them and neither are any of the landlords I know personally. We want proper professional relationships with our tenants and thoroughly resent the image of gouging vampires that is often suggested.

It is you who have an issue with tenants..

NB what do you suggest we do? Pitch a tent by the roadside?

This is what I mean by your being out of touch with the reality so many of us live with.

For a landlord to take over four months to return a deposit whan he has agrees that there is no damage etc? Yes i have an issue with that; we had no money for food after paying a new deposit that winter.

So we are leary indeed.

And you did not answer the question I asked of course. Did not think you would..

I made no accusations re "gouging vampires" ; wonderful phrase and one I will remember.

But heedless of the reality many live in, certainly. To even suggest a higher deposit!!!

Osgoodisgood

Graces7 wrote: »

It is you who have an issue with tenants..

NB what do you suggest we do? Pitch a tent by the roadside?

This is what I mean by your being out of touch with the reality so many of us live with.

For a landlord to take over four months to return a deposit whan he has agrees that there is no damage etc? Yes i have an issue with that; we had no money for food after paying a new deposit that winter.

So we are leary indeed.

And you did not answer the question I asked of course. Did not think you would..

I made no accusations re "gouging vampires" ; wonderful phrase and one I will remember.

But heedless of the reality many live in, certainly. To even suggest a higher deposit!!!

You seem to have me confused with someone else

rightwingdub

There's nothing wrong with renting in this country, the majority of people rent in Germany and society hasn't exactly collapsed, in Ireland we actually need to encourage more people to rent, there is far too much of a cultural obsession with owning property in this country.

People have to earn the right to own property, its not something that automatically falls into your lap.

Calina

rightwingdub wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with renting in this country, the majority of people rent in Germany and society hasn't exactly collapsed, in Ireland we actually need to encourage more people to rent, there is far too much of a cultural obsession with owning property in this country.

People have to earn the right to own property, its not something that automatically falls into your lap.

There would be nothing wrong with renting in this country if there did not happen to exist a monumental culture of mistrust between tenants and landlord. For that to go away will require a lot of legislative protection for both parties and a cultural change.

I do not object to renting for my life. I do object to renting in Ireland because having lived in Germany and France and Belgium, it is my honest opinion that renting in Ireland is a fool's game.

BostonB

Graces7 wrote: »

You are joking of course, given that the greatest problem tenants have is getting our exisiting deposit back from landlords..

Where do you imagine eg pensioners are going to get that sum from?

Theres two sides to that story. There isn't a money tree to cover damage and missed rent either. Which is the problem landlords have.

Where do you imagine a pensioner who rents out a place as their only income, gets the money to repair damages, or replace missed rent. A lot of landlords are very tight for money too.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

Theres two sides to that story. There isn't a money tree to cover damage and missed rent either. Which is the problem landlords have.

Where do you imagine a pensioner who rents out a place as their only income, gets the money to repair damages, or replace missed rent. A lot of landlords are very tight for money too.

So good tenants like us must suffer for bad ones? Great idea! (Living on fresh air and little else here as we try to get the money together to move...)

Contradiction in terms by the way....:rolleyes:

BostonB

Graces7 wrote: »

So good tenants like us must suffer for bad ones? Great idea! (Living on fresh air and little else here as we try to get the money together to move...)

Contradiction in terms by the way....:rolleyes:

So a good landlord should suffer for bad landlords?

AFAIK its possible to be of pensionable age, thus a pensioner, and not recieve a pension. Either too few PRSI contributions, or not retired. Though a rental business thats not paying its costs isn't income either.

If local authorities had a problem finding rental properties, then they'd improve how the RA system works. Make it fairer to both parties. But with a glut of rental properties on the market, and a lot of desperate landlords they don't. So it won't change. Thus some landlords won't be interested in RA tenants when the system is so flawed as it is.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

So a good landlord should suffer for bad landlords?

AFAIK its possible to be of pensionable age, thus a pensioner, and not recieve a pension. Either too few PRSI contributions, or not retired. Though a rental business thats not paying its costs isn't income either.

If local authorities had a problem finding rental properties, then they'd improve how the RA system works. Make it fairer to both parties. But with a glut of rental properties on the market, and a lot of desperate landlords they don't. So it won't change. Thus some landlords won't be interested in RA tenants when the system is so flawed as it is.

Very few landlords are interested in RA tenants now..... :rolleyes:

But raising the deposit is not an answer, unless las are going to subsidies needy tenants.

A better idea is the one Threshold are working on...
http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=102&page=301

Support it?

BostonB

Theres nothing there that helps a landlord with a RA tenant. If there was I'm sure it would be supported. Everyones fed up with the hassle of dealing with deposits. RA is paid one month in arrears. If the tenant misses one month, the landlord is down 2 months rents. One month deposit doesn't cover it. Besides theres often damage beyond normal wear and tear, thats what the deposit is for. Not to cover rent. I think everyone can agree that no one is happy with the current system.

rightwingdub

Calina wrote: »

There would be nothing wrong with renting in this country if there did not happen to exist a monumental culture of mistrust between tenants and landlord. For that to go away will require a lot of legislative protection for both parties and a cultural change.

I do not object to renting for my life. I do object to renting in Ireland because having lived in Germany and France and Belgium, it is my honest opinion that renting in Ireland is a fool's game.

My brother and his wife and reluctant landlords, they bought a house in the West 5 years ago but last year they got jobs back here in Dublin, they weren't going to see the house because its in negative eguity.

My brother and his wife are registered with the PRTB, they are very lawabiding and will always arrange for any problems that the tenants may have to be arranged ie problem with the shower etc. The house is not a kip and they carried out substantial renovations to the house between 2006-2008.

I'm renting myself and I've no problems with my landlord, there are some bad landlords but there are also plenty of decent landlords as well.

deisemum

Has anyone any experience of dealing with the PRTB as a third party?

A month ago scum and that's a polite word for them moved into the semi-detached house adjoining my home and they're making our lives and that of our other neighbours a living hell.

The landlord isn't interested except in the rental income. Within 2 days one of the teenagers threatened to knife a spanish student that was staying with me.

The gardai and social workers have been informed but I'm absolutely disgusted at the level of acceptance by the social worker involved.

I work from my home as a notified childminder. The children I mind will be coming back to me from next week. The language from the tenants next door is shocking, it's seriously bad.

Even when I keep children indoors with the doors and windows shut we cannot escape hearing the language and the screaming and crying. If things carry on like this then I'll lose my business and income and as my husband and myself are self-employed we will not be entitled to benefits.

So several neighbours and myself and now thinking of contacting the PRTB to see what they can do.

ziggyman17

Two years ago I rent my apartment out to a couple.. It was a brand new showhouse apartment that I rented out to them.. I was living with my girlfriend in her apartment at the time.. After 14 months of living in my apartment the couple decided to move out, giving me only two weeks notice, when I went to inspect the apartment the place was a wreck.. wooden floors scraped to bits, chunks of wood missing off the doors, cigarette burn on the sofa, stains on the bath, broken microwave, sink unit ruined, holes and marks on walls, balcony furniture broken and missing.. I refused to give back the deposit and these feckers brought me to the prtb place for there deposit back.. I brought photo's of the damage and the idiots still ruled in there favour, the prtb is a joke, these animals wrecked my brand new apartment and yet I still have to give them back the deposit.. Im thinking of with holding the deposit as I feel I was unfairly treated by the prtb..for our first meeting with the prtb the tenents never turned up and still they rearranged a meeting for a later date, even though it states in there rules that if you don't turn up thats the end of it..

Dymo

Don't give it back then, you'll see then what little powers the PRTB has

ziggyman17

Dymo wrote: »

Don't give it back then, you'll see then what little powers the PRTB has

what do you mean ?? little powers ?? can I go to jail ?? If Im brought to court, will I have to pay court costs ?? Getting married in sweden in june and the missus is afraid that if I don't pay up, that I could get arrested at the airport.. Its just that I feel that im so much in the right here, that it kills me to let them get away with it...

EKRIUQ

The PRTB only gives judgements they can't enforce them, if you don't pay then the ex tennants might take you to court but it has to be the crcuit court or the PRTB might, small chance then you can battle your case again there.

Enforcement

Failure to comply with a determination order of the PRTB is an offence. The affected party or the PRTB, if notified and satisfied that an order has not been complied with, may apply to the Circuit Court for an Order directing the party concerned to comply.

Osgoodisgood

ziggyman17 wrote: »

for our first meeting with the prtb the tenents never turned up and still they rearranged a meeting for a later date, even though it states in there rules that if you don't turn up thats the end of it..

Have you already exhausted the appeals process?

ziggyman17

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Have you already exhausted the appeals process?

went to one appeals meeting.. complete waste of time.. they said my photos of damage meant nothing because I took them some months after the tenents had moved out.. they also glossed over all the lies the tenents told ( even though they were found to be lying ).. It seems to me that whoever brings the case to the prtb, the prtb side with that party.. getting married next summer abroad and my girlfriend is worried that if I don't pay up, that I could be stopped from leaving the country..

ziggyman17

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Have you already exhausted the appeals process?

went to the appeal meeting.. complete waste of time.. the panel did'nt seem interested in anything I had to say.. the photo's I showed them of the damage the tenents did were dismissed as they were taken some months after the tenents had moved out.. the panel inplied that I did the damage myself:eek:.. at the appeal the tenents were caught out lying about various things and the panel just glossed over this.. also the tenents lived in the apartment for 14 months, they gave 13 days notice not in writing, the law states that you have to give 42 days notice in writing, this as well as all the damage was dismissed.. Its seems to me that whoever brings the case to the prtb, the prtb most times will back this person.. a joke of an organisation

Distorted

Calina wrote: »

There would be nothing wrong with renting in this country if there did not happen to exist a monumental culture of mistrust between tenants and landlord. For that to go away will require a lot of legislative protection for both parties and a cultural change.

I do not object to renting for my life. I do object to renting in Ireland because having lived in Germany and France and Belgium, it is my honest opinion that renting in Ireland is a fool's game.

Thats a good point. I rented in both Germany and Holland and it was altogether a much less fraught and complicated process than renting here, either as tenant or landlord! Thinking back, the difference might have been that there was more emphasis on the tenant taking responsiblity for more things, particularly in Germany. And strangely, it seemed to be less regulated than here too.

Being a landlord here, and in the UK, is rapidly becoming a nightmare.

Its the double standards that are enforced by law that gets me. I have had to clean many filthy properties left by tenants and to fix so many items they have broken. I rent in one part of the UK which is subject to annual inspections of rented property. I was told, in a luxury property, to replace a tiny bit of defective sealant round a bath. Yet who tells my filthy tenants from last year that if you don't clean a sink once in 6 months, its likely to be disgusting the entire thing has to be replaced?

bugler

There's nothing to stop tenants in the UK acting badly. If you think they have some magic solution that means tenants behave you're mistaken.

Incidentally, you should have told your landlord where to go when he asked you to replace sealant on a bath. "Luxury", indeed.

It sounds like you have chosen poorly in terms of tenants. I'm not saying it's easy to pick good ones, but if you're consistently picking bad or disruptive tenants you may want to reassess your approach.

My advice to landlords is the same as it has been for the past couple of years. Aim your dwelling at a better class of tenant. There are a lot of people renting now who ordinarily would have been FTB fodder. So clear out your place of clutter and furnish it sparsely, if at all. Go after the people who would like to buy but won't/can't, who want to buy their own stuff, or already own it. Will you have to reduce the rent? Maybe. Maybe not.

Alternatively, keep furnishing the place with crap, accept whoever is willing to pay what you want, and run the inevitable risk of drawing a dud.

Solair

There's no doubt that it goes both ways. There are good landlords and good tenants and awful landlords and awful tenants.

I've rented and experienced both extremes. The fundamental problem is that it's not properly regulated.

There's also a major issue with quality as many apartments and houses are being let on by people who don't have the resources to manage the property correctly. I mean landlords who are mortgaged to their back teeth and where the rent is just barely, or not covering repayments.
These trend to be the ones who skimp on maintenence etc

The sector in ireland and in britain in my experience is just very amateurish and haphazard. On the continent it trends to be focused on unfurnished, longer term leases and landlords are often not individuals, rather they might be developers who own whole developments. There are also far fewer bad conversions of houses etc.

It's all rather more chaotic here and the quality is definitely lower here.

At the end of the day the tenant is paying for a maintained house or apartment. I just always get the feeling that a lot of irish landlords seem to forget that they are selling a service.

Tenants wrecking property is another serious issue and really, where someone trashes the place they're should be criminal proceedings. Is just criminal damage. Accidents should be insured against by the tenant's policy (which should be compulsory and cover infernal accidents, glass breakage etc)

There should be some sort of procedure for removing non paying tenants and also perhaps a bond or insurance find that protects against losses for this.

The sector needs adequate and appropriate regulation, not just a big load of useless red tape.

gurramok

Some people just like living in a dump and others(most of us) prefer cleaniness. I always clean the rented apt I'm in, I just hate the sight of filth building up as I value my health!

Distorted

Solair wrote: »

There's no doubt that it goes both ways. There are good landlords and good tenants and awful landlords and awful tenants.

I've rented and experienced both extremes. The fundamental problem is that it's not properly regulated.

There's also a major issue with quality as many apartments and houses are being let on by people who don't have the resources to manage the property correctly. I mean landlords who are mortgaged to their back teeth and where the rent is just barely, or not covering repayments.
These trend to be the ones who skimp on maintenence etc

The sector in ireland and in britain in my experience is just very amateurish and haphazard. On the continent it trends to be focused on unfurnished, longer term leases and landlords are often not individuals, rather they might be developers who own whole developments. There are also far fewer bad conversions of houses etc.

It's all rather more chaotic here and the quality is definitely lower here.

At the end of the day the tenant is paying for a maintained house or statement. I just always get the feeling that a lot of irish landlords seem to forget that they are selling a service.

Tenants wrecking property is another serious issue and really, where someone trashes the place they're should be criminal proceedings. Is just criminal damage. Accidents should be insured against by the tenant's policy (which should be compulsory and cover infernal accidents, glass breakage etc)

There should be some sort of procedure for removing non paying tenants and also perhaps a bond or insurance find that protects against losses for this.

The sector needs adequate and appropriate regulation, not just a big load of useless red tape.

I've only rented off private landlords in both Germany and Holland, of which there are at least as many as here. In fact, I'm seriously considering buying a couple of apartments in Munich because the regulation is less over there and the tenants seem more able to take responsibility for their own lives and therefore for looking after the property. Legally it is not a contract of services, it is a contract for property. I think I've mentioned this before on here. There are already procedures for removing non paying tenants! But obviously in any kind of civilised country you have to go through proper legal channels for doing so!

I often think the Government here and in the UK want private landlords to take over from the state sector in supplying low cost, heavily regulated accommodation to the masses, and this is the ethos behind a lot of the regulation.

Bugler - your post didn't make sense, as you appear to have got the landlord and tenant mixed up. You have heard of HMO's, haven't you?

Drumpot

What is the point of the PRTB ? More beaurocracy . . Its supposed to save people money and speed up the process but I have never met anybody satisfied with it.

After 8 months of trying to reason with a renting neighbour, I went to the PRTB with a dispute about a noisy neighbour who constantly parked in my legally owned spot.

I had everything logged and dated.

The neighbour called me racist, and the adjudicator went with it (without any hesitation) and decided it was best leave a mid twenty couple suffer rather then risk the PR wrath of a paper backlash against a foreign couple. In fairness my cousin (solicitor) had warned me that the adjudicator was a twisted B*atch but nothing prepared me for her ignorance and narrow minded approach to adjudication.

I ended up selling my house a month later and moving . . Thanks for nothing PRTB, useless waste of money/time . .

ziggyman17

Drumpot wrote: »

What is the point of the PRTB ? More beaurocracy . . Its supposed to save people money and speed up the process but I have never met anybody satisfied with it.

After 8 months of trying to reason with a renting neighbour, I went to the PRTB with a dispute about a noisy neighbour who constantly parked in my legally owned spot.

I had everything logged and dated.

The neighbour called me racist, and the adjudicator went with it (without any hesitation) and decided it was best leave a mid twenty couple suffer rather then risk the PR wrath of a paper backlash against a foreign couple. In fairness my cousin (solicitor) had warned me that the adjudicator was a twisted B*atch but nothing prepared me for her ignorance and narrow minded approach to adjudication.

I ended up selling my house a month later and moving . . Thanks for nothing PRTB, useless waste of money/time . .

sorry to hear that.. Ive also had a really bad experience with the prtb.. They did'nt listen to a word I said and totally blanked my photo eviedence and all my reciepts from work done.. It felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall.. told a solicitor friend what happened and he said he was not suprised as that seems to be the norm for the prtb.. a kangaroo court is what he called it..

Osgoodisgood

ziggyman17 wrote: »

told a solicitor friend what happened and he said he was not suprised as that seems to be the norm for the prtb.. a kangaroo court is what he called it..

That sounds about right. Every solicitor I've mentioned the PRTB to has had nothing but warnings about entering formal proceedings as a landlord.

They are a throwback to the old days of tenements, wealthy landlords and Charles Dickens and have utter contempt for the landlord. I, for one, am heartily sick of the parasitic morons, disguised as "independent" adjudicators who have ears only for one side of the story and who quickly award financial penalties against landlords that are completely out of step with the events that preceded the case.